do you believe in fate?

[avatar4321]

Do you think people are destined to do things no matter what choices they make?

[Kathianne]

No. We have free will.

[April15]

Do you think people are destined to do things no matter what choices they make?Some are by virtue of parentage.

[Said1]

Do you think people are destined to do things no matter what choices they make?

Not in the sense you desicribed above. No I don't believe in fate.

On the other hand, when it comes to fate, kismet or destiny - I do believe in it in a 'in all the coffee shops in town, why did he have to walk into mine' sort of way. :laugh2:

[Mr. P]

Do you think people are destined to do things no matter what choices they make?

Nope.

[5stringJeff]

I agree with Kathianne. We have free will.

[gabosaurus]

It is not just one choice that shapes your destiny. It is a series of choices.
But I do believe in fate. Karma is a bitch.

[Gaffer]

You do always have a choice, but the choice is limited. You have a choice of walking or driving to the store, except when you don't have a car. Or the store is 30 miles away.

If the results of choices come out the same, even though by different routes, you could say that fate applies.

[LOki]

I'll assert that God created everything--including the future. Your fate is sealed. :popcorn:

[Hagbard Celine]

Do you think people are destined to do things no matter what choices they make?

Yes.

[hjmick]

No.

[jackass]

Not at all. I used to argue this point with my father. He would say that if God knew what you were going to do you had n o choice in the matter, ergo fate. I said that you still have the choice. He just knows what choice you will make.

[Hagbard Celine]

Not at all. I used to argue this point with my father. He would say that if God knew what you were going to do you had n o choice in the matter, ergo fate. I said that you still have the choice. He just knows what choice you will make.

Exactly, but that proves that our lives are predestined. We have the illusion of free will. The choices we're going to make are already set in stone though.

[jackass]

Exactly, but that proves that our lives are predestined. We have the illusion of free will. The choices we're going to make are already set in stone though.

But we still have the CHOICE. You say it right there. Choices we make.

[Hagbard Celine]

But we still have the CHOICE. You say it right there. Choices we make.

Yes, but they're not really choices. We aren't actually defining our course. We're simply following a preset script--going through the motions on a pre-set course. If God already knows which "choices" we'll make, that means our destinies are already pre-set. The "choices" we make have already been made for us, we're just following through when we "make" them.

[jackass]

Yes, but they're not really choices. We aren't actually defining our course. We're simply following a preset script--going through the motions on a pre-set course. If God already knows which "choices" we'll make, that means our destinies are already pre-set. The "choices" we make have already been made for us, we're just following through when we "make" them.

You always have a choice. If I decide to pick my nose or I dont...its my choice. God may know what I am going to choose, but its still my choice if I stick it up there.

[Abbey Marie]

Yes, but they're not really choices. We aren't actually defining our course. We're simply following a preset script--going through the motions on a pre-set course. If God already knows which "choices" we'll make, that means our destinies are already pre-set. The "choices" we make have already been made for us, we're just following through when we "make" them.

Perhaps they are not pre-set, but God, being God after all, can "see" the future choices we will make.

God as a non-corporeal, really talented Kreskin. :coffee:

[LOki]

Exactly, but that proves that our lives are predestined. We have the illusion of free will. The choices we're going to make are already set in stone though.

Exactly. Free will is a sham. It is a denial of the omnipotent omniscience of God.

[Hagbard Celine]

You always have a choice. If I decide to pick my nose or I dont...its my choice. God may know what I am going to choose, but its still my choice if I stick it up there.

The fact remains--God knows the outcome, which means that it's pre-determined. The "choices" you make are merely steps in the dance that will eventually lead you to a foregone conlusion.

[Hagbard Celine]

Perhaps they are not pre-set, but God, being God after all, can "see" the future choices we will make.

God as a non-corporeal, really talented Kreskin. :coffee:

Again, if God knows the conclusion, then the conclusion is set in stone. We aren't in control of it.

[LOki]

You always have a choice.

You don't. God created your future whe He created everything.


If I decide to pick my nose or I dont...its my choice.

It's not. God determind that you were going to pick your nose (or not) when he created everything; including the future and your sense of choice. God determined that you were going to pick your nose (or not) long before you were involved, and you cannot deny the supreme and omnipotent will of God.


God may know what I am going to choose,...

Yes, He certainly does, because that's exactly how he created you and your entire existence in time.


...but its still my choice if I stick it up there.

No, it's not--it's God's choice. You have nothing to do with it.

[Hagbard Celine]

No, it's not--it's God's choice. You have nothing to do with it.

That's the major flaw with religion and the idea that sin exists. If you accept that God exists, then you have to acknowledge that the entire premise is based upon a set of arbitrary rules.
If God is omnipotent, then he/she/it knows our actions and futures beforehand, hence the free choice we have is an illusion. It only seems to us that we have free choice. In reality, God already knows what we will do, when we will do it and what will happen when we do it. If our lives are pre-determined from the start, then it doesn't matter what we do or what choices we make because we were either destined to be a sinner or destined to be a saint from the beginning. And since the rules outlining what "sin" is were made by God anyway, it makes the whole thing meaningless. We're merely automatons going down a pre-set track that operates based on rules we have no control over to begin with.

-Or-

Either there is no God or God is not entirely omniscient.

[jackass]

Does God make you do what you are doing? No. You decide what to do. Hence free will. Got it? Good!

[AllieBaba]

I'll assert that God created everything--including the future. Your fate is sealed. :popcorn:

Your fate is known by God, but not by you...so you still have to make the choices, and take the responsibility.

[5stringJeff]

That's the major flaw with religion and the idea that sin exists. If you accept that God exists, then you have to acknowledge that the entire premise is based upon a set of arbitrary rules.
If God is omnipotent, then he/she/it knows our actions and futures beforehand, hence the free choice we have is an illusion. It only seems to us that we have free choice. In reality, God already knows what we will do, when we will do it and what will happen when we do it. If our lives are pre-determined from the start, then it doesn't matter what we do or what choices we make because we were either destined to be a sinner or destined to be a saint from the beginning. And since the rules outlining what "sin" is were made by God anyway, it makes the whole thing meaningless. We're merely automatons going down a pre-set track that operates based on rules we have no control over to begin with.

-Or-

Either there is no God or God is not entirely omniscient.

The flaw with your argument is that God's knowledge of future events does not mean that He caused such events to happen. Because God exists outside of time (just as He exists outside of space), He views all moments of time simultaneously. Therefore, He is able to know whether or not you will act in a certain manner. Besides all this, if you don't have free will, how could God ask you to make a choice to repent?

[Hagbard Celine]

The flaw with your argument is that God's knowledge of future events does not mean that He caused such events to happen. Because God exists outside of time (just as He exists outside of space), He views all moments of time simultaneously. Therefore, He is able to know whether or not you will act in a certain manner. Besides all this, if you don't have free will, how could God ask you to make a choice to repent?

God can ask anything it wants to ask. It doesn't mean it has to give us a fair chance at the challenge. If God is truly omniscient, then as you've said, it can see all moments of time simultaneously, therefore it knows everything--including your fate. If it knows your fate, then your fate is known. If your fate is known, then you can't change it, it's a foregone conclusion. That means all your "choices" are known and pre-determined as well.
Basically stated, if you believe in a totally omipotent God, then you have to accept that you are an automaton going through the motions to fulfill a predetermined fate.

[5stringJeff]

God can ask anything it wants to ask. It doesn't mean it has to give us a fair chance at the challenge.

I disagree. Please allow me to parse my response.


If God is truly omniscient, then as you've said, it can see all moments of time simultaneously, therefore it knows everything--including your fate.

If you are defining "my fate" as what happens to me after I die, then yes, I agree, He knows everything that has happened or will happen to me.


If it knows your fate, then your fate is known.

OK.


If your fate is known, then you can't change it, it's a foregone conclusion. That means all your "choices" are known and pre-determined as well.

No. My fate is known by an actor (God) who is outside of time, and who is not causing my actions to take place. Because God exists outside of time, He sees all moments of time as though they were present, but that omniscience does not mean that such events have already happened. They have not happened - they are in the future. God's observation of the future, from His vantage point outside of time, allows Him to see our actions (or our fate), but His knowledge of their future occurrence does not negate our ability to choose one action or another.
By analogy, I know that the earth will continue to rotate such that the sun will appear over the eastern horizon tomorrow, but my knowledge of the sunrise will not cause the sun to rise. Likewise, I can set a bowl of ice cream and a bowl of broccoli in front of my 2 1/2 year old son, and I know for a fact that he will eat the ice cream. Again, I would not be forcing him to eat the ice cream - he will eat it of his own free will. Likewise, God can know our eternal fate without having chosen that fate for us.

[LOki]

Your fate is known by God, but not by you...so you still have to make the choices, and take the responsibility.

You make no "choices" that God did not design for you--God's will is absolute.

[Hagbard Celine]

Your fate is known by God, but not by you...so you still have to make the choices, and take the responsibility.

But you are still making choices that have already been made before and are known to God, therefore all you're actually doing when you are making your "choices" is following right along with the plan God has already lined-out for you.

[midcan5]

Some are confusing fate for predestination or maybe they mean the same thing for them. Neither exist, although I guess they give some comfort, so that a screwed up world or a well run world are outside their responsibility. As far as fatalism goes I think it is all hooey. We can do better and we can work to do better. If one truly believed in fate then nothing would matter - or could be judged - as it was all determined, a rather stupid idea for those of us who grew up in a more can do world.

[Trigg]

. If God is truly omniscient, then as you've said, it can see all moments of time simultaneously, therefore it knows everything--including your fate. If it knows your fate, then your fate is known. If your fate is known, then you can't change it, it's a foregone conclusion. That means all your "choices" are known and pre-determined as well.
Basically stated, if you believe in a totally omipotent God, then you have to accept that you are an automaton going through the motions to fulfill a predetermined fate.

There is a distinction between:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known
and

total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
Some modern theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.

I don't know why God would choose to create people, or any other animal for that matter, if he wasn't going to give them free will and the ability to choose and make decisions for themselves.

[Hagbard Celine]

There is a distinction between:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known
and

total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
Some modern theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.

I don't know why God would choose to create people, or any other animal for that matter, if he wasn't going to give them free will and the ability to choose and make decisions for themselves.

Yeah, I wrote a really long reply about this last night but my number lock came-on and I accidentally pressed F5 and I lost it. I agree with your points. It wouldn't make sense at all for God to make creatures with no free will--unless either there is no God to begin with or maybe he's f'ing with us. (shrug)
What really doesn't make sense to me is for a perfect being to make its creatures go through all of this to begin with. It really doesn't make sense.
To begin, why would a perfect being even get lonely? Isn't that the whole reason God created us? Because he was lonely in the void? Why wouldn't he just create a mate for himself? Why go through all the trouble of falling angels and humans and floods and all that?