Energy Independent

[Mr. P]

Why not? Occasionally I’ll remember something from my childhood I hadn’t thought of in years. Last week while listening to a discussion on hybrid cars, I remembered a few models I build as a kid. Some of the older folks may remember models that came with an electric motor kit. The motor was 95% complete all you had to do was turn copper wire around the magnets, hit it with a battery and bingo it worked.

This made me think about a larger scale electric motor one that is driven by a generator not batteries. The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
No gas or external charging needed.

I think this is practical and possible. What’s wrong with this? Would the generator need to be a monster? It seems so simple and straight forward to me, what am I missing?

[Mr. P]

Come on tech nerds! What's the deal, isn't this possible?

[Missileman]

Come on tech nerds! What's the deal, isn't this possible?

http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/whythere.html

It's apparently impossible to construct such a system.

Did you see the news about the doctor who got saltwater to burn by applying a RF signal to the test tube it was in? The radio waves were causing the separation of the oxygen and hydrogen which was lit on fire as it left the top of the test tube...achieved 3000 degree temp...melted the test tube. That would seem a pretty cheap way to make steam to run a turbine generator.

[ranger]

While we develop the technology to try to accomplish this, how about using the current technology to drill for oil in ANWR and other places. Everyone is saying that supply and demand are driving these high prices, how about adding more to the supply.

[Missileman]

While we develop the technology to try to accomplish this, how about using the current technology to drill for oil in ANWR and other places. Everyone is saying that supply and demand are driving these high prices, how about adding more to the supply.

With all the different grants that our government gives out for useless shit, I'd like to see a huge reward offered to a company that can come up with a production-worthy, practical, alternate-powered vehicle. Something like an electric car that is recharged with a generator like I mentioned above. The car and generator would be sold as a unit.

[crin63]

Why not? Occasionally I’ll remember something from my childhood I hadn’t thought of in years. Last week while listening to a discussion on hybrid cars, I remembered a few models I build as a kid. Some of the older folks may remember models that came with an electric motor kit. The motor was 95% complete all you had to do was turn copper wire around the magnets, hit it with a battery and bingo it worked.

This made me think about a larger scale electric motor one that is driven by a generator not batteries. The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
No gas or external charging needed.

I think this is practical and possible. What’s wrong with this? Would the generator need to be a monster? It seems so simple and straight forward to me, what am I missing?

I've often wondered the same thing. I'm thinking that if it were a viable solution that power plants would have come with something along those lines. I've worked in dozens of power plants and those guys are all about the money so it just seems someone would've come up with a money making solution like that.

[PostmodernProphet]

http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/whythere.html

It's apparently impossible to construct such a system.

Did you see the news about the doctor who got saltwater to burn by applying a RF signal to the test tube it was in? The radio waves were causing the separation of the oxygen and hydrogen which was lit on fire as it left the top of the test tube...achieved 3000 degree temp...melted the test tube. That would seem a pretty cheap way to make steam to run a turbine generator.

what powered the machine that produced the radio waves......

[Missileman]

what powered the machine that produced the radio waves......

Regular AC current I imagine. If the energy needed to get the separation to occur is lower than the energy that can be produced from the heat generated it would be a practically free source of electricity. The only thing that would need to be added occasionally is salt water.

[PostmodernProphet]

If the energy needed to get the separation to occur is lower than the energy that can be produced from the heat generated it would be a practically free source of electricity.

and that is the big question...I saw the video of the demonstration of his method.....the machine he used to "activate" or whatever you would call it, the process was at least three feet square....my assumption was, it needed a large amount of electricity......it seems to me that all the hydrogen vehicles out there now run on hydrogen gas that was produced away from the vehicle.....I assumed this was because you needed a pretty good sized machine to produce it......

[crin63]

Several power plants that have gas turbines use the heat coming from the gas turbines to run steam turbines. Other places the heat produced is used to inject steam into the ground for pumping oil.

My point being they don't waste any of the products they generate, they maximize the dollars they can make off of each unit. So I really think if it were within the realm of possibility at the current time with current technology it would be being used in our power plants.

[glockmail]

.... The motor is started by battery power then turns a generator that then powers the motor and propels the car with some voltage directed to the batteries for charging when needed.
.....what am I missing?

You just described a perpetual motion machine.

[Mr. P]

You just described a perpetual motion machine.

I keep going over this with diagrams on paper...I just don't see why it wouldn't work.

Battery starts motor, motor turns generator, generator supplies volts to motor...It's a loop...NO?

[glockmail]

I keep going over this with diagrams on paper...I just don't see why it wouldn't work.

Battery starts motor, motor turns generator, generator supplies volts to motor...It's a loop...NO? Yes it is a loop. That’s what a “perpetual motion machine” is.

Forget about what powers the vehicle for a moment and just look at the vehicle itself, rolling along at a constant speed on a flat smooth road. You have the external forces of air and rolling resistance that want to slow it down, and those have to be overcome by some external energy source to keep the vehicle moving. That’s a simple law of physics that cannot be broken.

In a standard vehicle that external energy is gas or diesel, temporarily stored on board. That chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy in a process that is at most 35% efficient. The remaining 65% is lost through heat.

In your concept vehicle, you start out with some “external” energy stored in the battery as chemical energy. That chemical energy is then converted to electrical energy in a process that may be about 90% efficient. The remaining 10% is lost through heat (the battery will heat up a bit). That electrical energy is then converted to mechanical energy by an electric motor, which might be 90% efficient, since some of the energy heats up the windings and bearings in the motor. Next that mechanical energy is converted to electrical through generator, which might be 90% efficient, since the generator windings and bearings heat up. Next that electrical energy is supposed to be converted to mechanical energy and chemical energy (to move the vehicle and charge the battery), both processes that create heat, and thus are less than 100% efficient. Except for your initial batter charge, no where is there any energy available to overcome the inescapable inefficiencies of converting energy forms, never mind overcoming the external forces trying to slow the vehicle down.

[Missileman]

and that is the big question...I saw the video of the demonstration of his method.....the machine he used to "activate" or whatever you would call it, the process was at least three feet square....my assumption was, it needed a large amount of electricity......it seems to me that all the hydrogen vehicles out there now run on hydrogen gas that was produced away from the vehicle.....I assumed this was because you needed a pretty good sized machine to produce it......

If I read the story correctly, the process was discovered while looking for an alternate treatment for cancer. The idea was to inject the patient with these tiny metallic nanobots that would collect in a tumor. You'd would then hit them with RF making them heat up and destroy the tumor...or something to that effect. I'm sure you could come up with a transmitter that could do the same thing in a much smaller package. Medical equipment tends to be HUGE!

[Mr. P]

Yes it is a loop. That’s what a “perpetual motion machine” is.

Forget about what powers the vehicle for a moment and just look at the vehicle itself, rolling along at a constant speed on a flat smooth road. You have the external forces of air and rolling resistance that want to slow it down, and those have to be overcome by some external energy source to keep the vehicle moving. That’s a simple law of physics that cannot be broken.

In a standard vehicle that external energy is gas or diesel, temporarily stored on board. That chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy in a process that is at most 35% efficient. The remaining 65% is lost through heat.

In your concept vehicle, you start out with some “external” energy stored in the battery as chemical energy. That chemical energy is then converted to electrical energy in a process that may be about 90% efficient. The remaining 10% is lost through heat (the battery will heat up a bit). That electrical energy is then converted to mechanical energy by an electric motor, which might be 90% efficient, since some of the energy heats up the windings and bearings in the motor. Next that mechanical energy is converted to electrical through generator, which might be 90% efficient, since the generator windings and bearings heat up. Next that electrical energy is supposed to be converted to mechanical energy and chemical energy (to move the vehicle and charge the battery), both processes that create heat, and thus are less than 100% efficient. Except for your initial batter charge, no where is there any energy available to overcome the inescapable inefficiencies of converting energy forms, never mind overcoming the external forces trying to slow the vehicle down.

OK a radiator/ cooling fan then, to keep some heat/power loss at bay.

I'm not so concerned with physics of drag or friction at this point but more about this being a workable operating system.

I need to make a diagram...then again you guys would steal it! :laugh2:

On the bold part..is there such a thing on internal combustion engines?

[glockmail]

OK a radiator/ cooling fan then, to keep some heat/power loss at bay.

I'm not so concerned with physics of drag or friction at this point but more about this being a workable operating system.

I need to make a diagram...then again you guys would steal it! :laugh2:

On the bold part..is there such a thing on internal combustion engines?

You don't seem to be getting it Mr. P. You are describing a perpetual motion machine. Even if you had 100% efficiency on all the components, it still would not work because of the laws of physics.

Radiators and fans are simply mechanisms that disipate the heat away from the components. They don't make anything more efficient; they just keep it from overheating and breaking down.

An internal combustion engine is simply a device that converts chemical energy (like gas or diesel) into mechanical energy. At best they are about 35% efficient.

[Mr. P]

You don't seem to be getting it Mr. P. You are describing a perpetual motion machine. Even if you had 100% efficiency on all the components, it still would not work because of the laws of physics.

Radiators and fans are simply mechanisms that disipate the heat away from the components. They don't make anything more efficient; they just keep it from overheating and breaking down.

An internal combustion engine is simply a device that converts chemical energy (like gas or diesel) into mechanical energy. At best they are about 35% efficient.

I guess I don't get it..I just don't understand, why, if you have an electric motor turning a generator that will in turn power the motor...etc...wouldn't work.

Of course it will fail but so do all engines/motors.

I really am trying to understand why this won't work.

[glockmail]

I guess I don't get it..I just don't understand, why, if you have an electric motor turning a generator that will in turn power the motor...etc...wouldn't work.

Of course it will fail but so do all engines/motors.

I really am trying to understand why this won't work. Read this again:

Forget about what powers the vehicle for a moment and just look at the vehicle itself, rolling along at a constant speed on a flat smooth road. You have the external forces of air and rolling resistance that want to slow it down, and those have to be overcome by some external energy source to keep the vehicle moving. That’s a simple law of physics that cannot be broken.

I’ll try to say it a different way:

Energy, like matter, cannot be created or destroyed. It just changes form. I’m ignoring nuclear physics, of course. And every change can never be more than 100% efficient, because if it was, energy would have to be created, breaking a fundamental physical law.

[Mr. P]

Read this again:


I’ll try to say it a different way:

Energy, like matter, cannot be created or destroyed. It just changes form. I’m ignoring nuclear physics, of course. And every change can never be more than 100% efficient, because if it was, energy would have to be created, breaking a fundamental physical law.

Ok glock, are you saying if a model of my contraption was built it wouldn't run? yes?

Motor started with bat...turning a gen..then pull a relay that disconnects the bat and the gen runs the motor because the motor runs the gen. That won't work? I really don't understand why.

[Missileman]

Ok glock, are you saying if a model of my contraption was built it wouldn't run? yes?

Motor started with bat...turning a gen..then pull a relay that disconnects the bat and the gen runs the motor because the motor runs the gen. That won't work? I really don't understand why.

It would run, but not for very long. It would not be self-sustaining.

[Psychoblues]

P has a very shallow understanding of the concept but is bound and determined to insist to all of us that it will work. Much like most of his work here, it is unsustainable.

[Mr. P]

P has a very shallow understanding of the concept but is bound and determined to insist to all of us that it will work. Much like most of his work here, it is unsustainable.

Perhaps you have a formula to prove yer drivel.

[Mr. P]

It would run, but not for very long. It would not be self-sustaining.

It would run is all I'm aiming for. Working out the self sustaining part is another issue. I think that's workable too. If it will run it must be sustainable. An internal combustion engine will run until the fuel runs out, or it will run until it breaks if kept fueled. It would be difficult for a combustion engine to produce it's own fuel, but all an elect motor needs is to turn a generator producing electric, it's fuel.

[Psychoblues]

I do not have and have never been inclined towards anything even similar to your theory, P, even though I have spent much of my life in the electrical and otherwise power generating field.



Perhaps you have a formula to prove yer drivel.

Have you something substantial to back up your claims or is it just as you describe my ramblings, drivel?

[Mr. P]

I do not have and have never been inclined towards anything even similar to your theory, P, even though I have spent much of my life in the electrical and otherwise power generating field.




Have you something substantial to back up your claims or is it just as you describe my ramblings, drivel?

:laugh2::laugh2: Fool, read the thread...got something to contribute..feel free.

[manu1959]

I guess I don't get it..I just don't understand, why, if you have an electric motor turning a generator that will in turn power the motor...etc...wouldn't work.

Of course it will fail but so do all engines/motors.

I really am trying to understand why this won't work.

go buy an electric motor and a generator....wire em up and find out why....you will also need a starter.....

[Mr. P]

go buy an electric motor and a generator....wire em up and find out why....you will also need a starter.....

No starter just a battery or so...I am planning to construct this model.

[Psychoblues]

OK, a motor, a generator and a battery. That's your thesis, p.



No starter just a battery or so...I am planning to construct this model.

Or is it even less comprehensive than that simple observation?

[glockmail]

No starter just a battery or so...I am planning to construct this model.
Go for it Mr. P. You can buy the stuff at a hobby shop for about 20 buck-olas. The smaller the motor and generator, the less bearing friction, so when it doesn't work you'll know that a scaled up version won't work either. Plus working with 2 D cells won't get you electrocuted like a car battery could do.

I suggest using a manual switch to turn the battery on-off though to keep it simple. That way you won't be wasting too much time. As soon as you turn the switch to "off" the thing will stop instantly, guaranteed.

:salute: