US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war

[LiberalNation]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/battling_over_bullets;_ylt=ArWLmJaNeX6zinqRUmOMrqM DW7oF


Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S. The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.

Designed decades ago to puncture a Soviet soldier's helmet hundreds of yards away, the M855 rounds are being used for very different targets in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much of today's fighting takes place in close quarters; narrow streets, stairways and rooftops are today's battlefield. Legions of armor-clad Russians marching through the Fulda Gap in Germany have given way to insurgents and terrorists who hit and run.

Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric. That does not mean being shot is a pain-free experience. But unless the bullet strikes a vital organ or the spine, the adrenaline-fueled enemy may have the strength to keep on fighting and even live to fight another day.

In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger caliber bullets.

Yet the Army is not changing. The answer is better aim, not bigger bullets, officials say.

"If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesn't matter what you shoot him with," said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Army's infantry school.

[Sitarro]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080527/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/battling_over_bullets;_ylt=ArWLmJaNeX6zinqRUmOMrqM DW7oF

A different round would mean a different complaint from the whiny leftist rags......... too lethal, not fair to the poor insurgents(whatever that is suppose to mean).

[Dilloduck]

Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The United States was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Rules of war----1899 :laugh2:

[Jim_NH]

I agree, the Army is behind the curve on this one. In the past, a wounded adversary was preferable to a dead one since it took more of the enemy's resources to care for the wounded. Somehow, I don't think that is the case today.

[Dilloduck]

I agree, the Army is behind the curve on this one. In the past, a wounded adversary was preferable to a dead one since it took more of the enemy's resources to care for the wounded. Somehow, I don't think that is the case today.

Agreed---the stopping power of a bullet is now a far more important factor in the situation where our troops are fighting.

[glockmail]

Don't they carry .45 side arms as well?

[Monkeybone]

some do Glock, but they are mostly issued 9mm. they are trying to go back to .45's just for the stopping power.

they are also testing out larger rifle rounds already. be it that this was just another copy and paste military is screwing up post by LN. it looks like they might go with the 6.8 or .9 round. can shoot just as far as our current rounds with the same accuracy, but has a heavier bullet (apprently) given an almost equal thump of the AK round.

but in both pistols and rifle circumstances, it's ppl just dragging their feet and alot of it boils down to money.

[Dilloduck]

Screw it--shoot hollow points

[glockmail]

some do Glock, but they are mostly issued 9mm. they are trying to go back to .45's just for the stopping power.

they are also testing out larger rifle rounds already. be it that this was just another copy and paste military is screwing up post by LN. it looks like they might go with the 6.8 or .9 round. can shoot just as far as our current rounds with the same accuracy, but has a heavier bullet (apprently) given an almost equal thump of the AK round.

but in both pistols and rifle circumstances, it's ppl just dragging their feet and alot of it boils down to money. That's right- 9mm is the NATO round.

I can see why there would be "foot dragging", because it is a very complicated decision. It's extremely important to have ammunition work between branches of the Military, as well as among NATO allies. The 9mm has been in use for a long time and there is significant investment in it, so its not easy to switch.

9mm is availble with a hollow point, which should be sufficient.

[Gaffer]

While side arms are carried by many soldiers they are not issued to regular military personnel. Most troops only carry the rifle they are issued. Those with side arms either own them or have a job requiring them to have one.

When troops go out on combat missions they carry as much ammo as possible. Sometimes substituting ammo for food. The soldier will usually carry about 300 to 400 rounds. This is heavy. Making bigger rounds adds weight to the rounds. Having a side arm and the rounds for it adds more weight to your load. And believe me that is very important to the foot soldier.

About a year ago liberals were complaining that 50 calibers should not be used against enemy troops as they were too deadly. Now the 5.56 isn't powerful enough. So which is it?

[glockmail]

How can a weapon be "too deadly"? Besides, the .50 Browning has been used since WW2. Just because it was adapted to a sniper rifle the libs are all upset.

[diuretic]

While side arms are carried by many soldiers they are not issued to regular military personnel. Most troops only carry the rifle they are issued. Those with side arms either own them or have a job requiring them to have one.

When troops go out on combat missions they carry as much ammo as possible. Sometimes substituting ammo for food. The soldier will usually carry about 300 to 400 rounds. This is heavy. Making bigger rounds adds weight to the rounds. Having a side arm and the rounds for it adds more weight to your load. And believe me that is very important to the foot soldier.

About a year ago liberals were complaining that 50 calibers should not be used against enemy troops as they were too deadly. Now the 5.56 isn't powerful enough. So which is it?

My reading of the article made me think of the ammunition we're issued. I don't have the tech specs and I wouldn't be able to explain them anyway but they're soft, not jacketed, because their use is (I'm thinking of general duties members, not tactical or CT units) going to be in very close quarters where the danger of a bullet passing through someone's body could threaten an innocent bystander. I know police work is in no way comparable to the military and especially in urban warfare (about which I know zero) but I thought that LE ammo might be more appropriate in certain circumstances.

[Gaffer]

My experience with the 5.56 round was that when it hit someone it tumbled so that it exited somewhere other than in a straight line wound. You want knock down power when shooting at someone. While the 5.56 will knock down a man real quick it's not much good on a charging water buffalo.

[glockmail]

My experience with the 5.56 round was that when it hit someone it tumbled so that it exited somewhere other than in a straight line wound. You want knock down power when shooting at someone. While the 5.56 will knock down a man real quick it's not much good on a charging water buffalo.You mean the Yahoo News piece is bullshit? Whouda thunk?

[Monkeybone]

for urban combat they should just ramp up the production of the AA12's. atleast i think that is what they are called. full auto 12 ga baby! yah!

[glockmail]

for urban combat they should just ramp up the production of the AA12's. atleast i think that is what they are called. full auto 12 ga baby! yah!
What's an AA12? Is that a shotgun? I know they used to use Mossberg's during WW2 to clear trenches.

[Monkeybone]

What's an AA12? Is that a shotgun? I know they used to use Mossberg's during WW2 to clear trenches.

it is basically a 12 ga full auto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchisson_Assault_Shotgun

watch the videos, description doesn't really do it justice.

[glockmail]

it is basically a 12 ga full auto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchisson_Assault_Shotgun

watch the videos, description doesn't really do it justice. Yeah that's a bit beyond my old Mossberg. Nice weapon. We need a 10,000 or so in the hands of our combat troops, like yesterday.

[Monkeybone]

Yeah that's a bit beyond my old Mossberg. Nice weapon. We need a 10,000 or so in the hands of our combat troops, like yesterday.

amen to that brother.

i personally wanna fire off some of those Frag-12 rounds. but that just might be my gun lust talking.

[glockmail]

amen to that brother.

i personally wanna fire off some of those Frag-12 rounds. but that just might be my gun lust talking. Stop being so bitter and clinging to your gun and Bible.

[midcan5]

"They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,
neglected and selected. I went down to get my physical examination one
day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so
I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning. `Cause I wanted to
look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted
to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,
and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all
kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy.""

From Alice's Restaurant
By Arlo Guthrie

[Abbey Marie]

I agree, the Army is behind the curve on this one. In the past, a wounded adversary was preferable to a dead one since it took more of the enemy's resources to care for the wounded. Somehow, I don't think that is the case today.

Welcome to the board, Jim. You can introduce yourself in the "Introductions" thread in the Lounge forum if you'd like.

NH is a beautiful state...