U.S. soldier uses Quran for target practice; military apologizes

[dread]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.

[82Marine89]

I'd rather use it as toilet paper.

[Yurt]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.

WTF? that was not necessary

[dread]

WTF? that was not necessary



Which part are you talking about?

[Yurt]

Which part are you talking about?

kissing the quran, if the man is christian, that is not right, he can hand him a quran if he wants, but what is the point of kissing it, sends the wrong message

[retiredman]

kissing the quran, if the man is christian, that is not right, he can hand him a quran if he wants, but what is the point of kissing it, sends the wrong message

kissing the quran is a sign of respect.

[Silver]

kissing the quran is a sign of respect.

So is kissing my ass....its appeasement in its vilest form.....its a slap in the face to every patriot that ever served.....

[retiredman]

So is kissing my ass....its appeasement in its vilest form.....its a slap in the face to every patriot that ever served.....

even muslim patriots? Or are you suggesting there have been none?

is it appeasement for a muslim to remove his hat when he enters a Christian church?

[dread]

kissing the quran, if the man is christian, that is not right, he can hand him a quran if he wants, but what is the point of kissing it, sends the wrong message



Yes that part WAS over the top. I am just sooo tired of the appeasement. America is over there HELPING Iraqis and when will it be enough? If the someone used the bible as target practice would the Sunnis have the same respect?

[Silver]

http://tinyurl.com/mgy8k

Heres your fuckin' respect:fu:

[Yurt]

no, it legitimizes the words inside, it says that the quran is the book of allah, it is symbol of respect only in that you love the quran so much that you would kiss it

you know so little about islam, yet portray yourself as some expert

[Silver]

Tell Danny Pearl about respect...freekin' slug

[retiredman]

no, it legitimizes the words inside, it says that the quran is the book of allah, it is symbol of respect only in that you love the quran so much that you would kiss it

you know so little about islam, yet portray yourself as some expert

I disagree with your interpretation, yurt.

And I do not portray myself as any sort of expert on Islam. I merely state that I have lived in the middle east and I offer the knowledge I have gained while doing so.

[retiredman]

Tell Danny Pearl about respect...freekin' slug

irrelevant. normal muslims do not behead people, just like normal christians do not kill abortion doctors.

[retiredman]

Tell Danny Pearl about respect...freekin' slug

and I thought your "silver" identity wanted a fresh start with me....why the insults?

[Yurt]

I disagree with your interpretation, yurt.

And I do not portray myself as any sort of expert on Islam. I merely state that I have lived in the middle east and I offer the knowledge I have gained while doing so.

you disagree, so what, are you muslim, are you a scholar....you think to mighty of your opinions, lets see what muslims think, not some hack


Q: Is it Bid'ah to kiss the Holy Qur'an when opening and closing it?

A: No, it is not a Bid'ah.

Imam an-Nawawi reported that when Ikrimah (may Allah be pleased with him) used to see the Holy Qur'an, he used to put it on his head and kiss it and show a great deal of respect for it, saying "This is the book of Allah, this is the book of Allah."

From this Imam as-Suyuti said it is good to kiss the Holy Qur'an, also drawing an analogy with the black stone in the Ka'bah. Both are to be seen as a gift from Allah.

Similarly, in the same way that we kiss our children to show affection and love, it is a sign of our devotion and love for Allah to kiss the Holy Qur'an.

http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/kissqrn.htm

i told you, you know next to nothing about the subject

[dread]

irrelevant. normal muslims do not behead people, just like normal christians do not kill abortion doctors.



Those who kill abortion doctors ARE NOT christians AND real Christians cant wait to get a rope for them...


The same cant be said about Islam.

[82Marine89]

kissing the quran is a sign of respect.

Would you kiss it?

[Silver]

I'd finish my enlistment in Leavenworth first....

[retiredman]

you disagree, so what, are you muslim, are you a scholar....you think to mighty of your opinions, lets see what muslims think, not some hack


Q: Is it Bid'ah to kiss the Holy Qur'an when opening and closing it?

A: No, it is not a Bid'ah.

Imam an-Nawawi reported that when Ikrimah (may Allah be pleased with him) used to see the Holy Qur'an, he used to put it on his head and kiss it and show a great deal of respect for it, saying "This is the book of Allah, this is the book of Allah."

From this Imam as-Suyuti said it is good to kiss the Holy Qur'an, also drawing an analogy with the black stone in the Ka'bah. Both are to be seen as a gift from Allah.

Similarly, in the same way that we kiss our children to show affection and love, it is a sign of our devotion and love for Allah to kiss the Holy Qur'an.

http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/kissqrn.htm

i told you, you know next to nothing about the subject


I am neither a muslim nor a muslim scholar. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that you were neither as well. The fact that you can google "kissing the quran" and find a webpage does not make you any more - or less - familiar with Islam than me. The fact that I have lived amongst muslims and had a job that brought me into contact with arab leaders of many faiths - including Islam - makes me - I think - marginally more familiar than you. I have personally witnessed lebanese christian clerics kissing the quran in meetings with muslim mullahs. I suppose that they may have been clueless as to the cultural significance of their actions, but I noted that the muslim mullahs did not take offense, and appeared to see the gesture as one of respect. I have only that to go on....but then, you do have your website.

[Yurt]

I am neither a muslim nor a muslim scholar. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that you were neither as well. The fact that you can google "kissing the quran" and find a webpage does not make you any more - or less - familiar with Islam than me. The fact that I have lived amongst muslims and had a job that brought me into contact with arab leaders of many faiths - including Islam - makes me - I think - marginally more familiar than you. I have personally witnessed lebanese christian clerics kissing the quran in meetings with muslim mullahs. I suppose that they may have been clueless as to the cultural significance of their actions, but I noted that the muslim mullahs did not take offense, and appeared to see the gesture as one of respect. I have only that to go on....but then, you do have your website.

so because you saw something, which does not support your view, that makes you right in this situation. did you ask the muslims what their view of the kiss meant? from your post it is clear you did not and so you have no idea. regardless of their view, it is entirely possible they have it wrong and in fact my post shows that a muslim did not know and had to ask an islamic expert who told him the answer. i gave you an islamic answer and it is unnacceptable to you because it came from the web. how intellectually dishonest, when you have nothing to offer in contrast. you just can't admit when you wrong, a sign of desperation.

so i guess from now on, anything you cite to on the internet will not be credited as reliable. :poke: to show you that others also do not know the significance, i will give another website.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101213542AAO9aOh

[82Marine89]

kissing the quran is a sign of respect.

I will ask you again. Would you kiss the koran?

[retiredman]

so because you saw something, which does not support your view, that makes you right in this situation. did you ask the muslims what their view of the kiss meant? from your post it is clear you did not and so you have no idea. regardless of their view, it is entirely possible they have it wrong and in fact my post shows that a muslim did not know and had to ask an islamic expert who told him the answer. i gave you an islamic answer and it is unnacceptable to you because it came from the web. how intellectually dishonest, when you have nothing to offer in contrast. you just can't admit when you wrong, a sign of desperation.

so i guess from now on, anything you cite to on the internet will not be credited as reliable. :poke: to show you that others also do not know the significance, i will give another website.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080101213542AAO9aOh

Yurt...I did not say that your answer was unacceptable because it came from the web. I merely pointed out that real world experiences are sometimes in contradiction to the information we glean from the internet.... and that the internet knowledge might make you the smartest guy in the local central california bar association on the topic of Islam, that knowledge does not automatically preempt anyone else's real world observations, nor make those observations worthless in the face of your google find.

[Yurt]

Yurt...I did not say that your answer was unacceptable because it came from the web. I merely pointed out that real world experiences are sometimes in contradiction to the information we glean from the internet.... and that the internet knowledge might make you the smartest guy in the local central california bar association on the topic of Islam, that knowledge does not automatically preempt anyone else's real world observations, nor make those observations worthless in the face of your google find.

whatever dick... i already knew the answer from my studies of islam, if you will notice, from the beginning i said it sends the wrong signal. i only gave you a website because i knew you would not accept my studies of islam because i have never been to the ME. you, the arrogant dickhead, spent some time over there decades ago and think you are more knowledgable in "real world" obvservations, as if, simply because the so-called muslims you observed did something, that MUST mean it is right. only a fool would make that conclusion.

you phony preacher

edit: so you do not disagree with the answer provided, then you are wrong, admit it

[retiredman]

I will ask you again. Would you kiss the koran?

I have, actually, in a meeting with a senior Amal official - who has since been assassinated.

In fact, he and I traded not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six kisses on the cheek during that meeting as well. It was a record between UNTSO officers in meetings with Amal leader, Daoud Daoud. The previous record was four.
I bought my UNTSO teammates numerous rounds of beer over that event.

[retiredman]

whatever dick... i already knew the answer from my studies of islam, if you will notice, from the beginning i said it sends the wrong signal. i only gave you a website because i knew you would not accept my studies of islam because i have never been to the ME. you, the arrogant dickhead, spent some time over there decades ago and think you are more knowledgable in "real world" obvservations, as if, simply because the so-called muslims you observed did something, that MUST mean it is right. only a fool would make that conclusion.

you phony preacher

edit: so you do not disagree with the answer provided, then you are wrong, admit it
I would never claim that my real world observations were more relevant than your studies stateside....only that they are "real world. I witnessed muslim leaders meet with christian leaders. It may not be the "right" answer, but it IS one based upon real world observation and not book study and google searches.

by the way...are the insults going to die down anytime soon, or can I expect them to remain a permanent part of our dialog?

[82Marine89]

I have, actually, in a meeting with a senior Amal official - who has since been assassinated.

I figured you would have.


In fact, he and I traded not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six kisses on the cheek during that meeting as well. It was a record between UNTSO officers in meetings with Amal leader, Daoud Daoud. The previous record was four.
I bought my UNTSO teammates numerous rounds of beer over that event.

What!?!? No tongue?

[Yurt]

I would never claim that my real world observations were more relevant than your studies stateside....only that they are "real world. I witnessed muslim leaders meet with christian leaders. It may not be the "right" answer, but it IS one based upon real world observation and not book study and google searches.

by the way...are the insults going to die down anytime soon, or can I expect them to remain a permanent part of our dialog?

oh my, mr. innocent and his cries....you bring up me and the local bar here up in an insulting manner, don't cry to me ass...

so - is the answer i provided wrong or right? real simple.

[retiredman]

oh my, mr. innocent and his cries....you bring up me and the local bar here up in an insulting manner, don't cry to me ass...

so - is the answer i provided wrong or right? real simple.


your website is contradicted by my observations of local customs.

I am not insulting you or your local bar. and I am not crying about anything. I can only relate my experiences and you can chose to disregard and denigrate them, as it would appear you have, or you can chose to garner some marginal degree of understanding from them, which would appear to be the option you decided not to pick.

[dread]

I figured you would have.



What!?!? No tongue?



Ok...Now I am going to have to poke my minds eye out. :puke:

[Yurt]

your website is contradicted by my observations of local customs.

I am not insulting you or your local bar. and I am not crying about anything. I can only relate my experiences and you can chose to disregard and denigrate them, as it would appear you have, or you can chose to garner some marginal degree of understanding from them, which would appear to be the option you decided not to pick.

you were being snide, don't play innocent. so, again are you saying the answer i provided is wrong - yes or no. enough dancing around the issue, either admit you are wrong or that the islamic scholar is wrong.

[retiredman]

I figured you would have.



What!?!? No tongue?


no. arab men kiss one another on the cheek only, alternating between left and right. the more cursory and perfunctory the greeting, the fewer kisses. Daoud Daoud was happy to see me and enjoyed our discussions and the number of kisses was increased accordningly.

[dread]

no. arab men kiss one another on the cheek only, alternating between left and right. the more cursory and perfunctory the greeting, the fewer kisses. Daoud Daoud was happy to see me and enjoyed our discussions and the number of kisses was increased accordningly.




Of course he was happy to see you. You are an appeaser. You give everything and ask for nothing in return...

[retiredman]

you were being snide, don't play innocent. so, again are you saying the answer i provided is wrong - yes or no. enough dancing around the issue, either admit you are wrong or that the islamic scholar is wrong.


I saw what I saw. I did what I did. I was treated the way I was treated. All of those experiences and observations lead me to believe that kissing the quran is seen as a sign of respect. I realise you have googled the issue and have come up with a different interpretation. Have your real world experiences tended to support or negate your internet knowledge?

[retiredman]

Of course he was happy to see you. You are an appeaser. You give everything and ask for nothing in return...

actually...daoud daoud got NOTHING that he was looking for from me. Amal's role in the south of lebanon remained marginalized. UNTSO/UNIFIL remained the dominant force in the town of Tyre and in southern coastal camps.

[actsnoblemartin]

my two cents: its probably not the nicest thing to do, but i think their is a double standard. if this was the bible, no one would bat at an eye lash.

[actsnoblemartin]

I have heard of this, and even seen it. I believe this is a part of arab culture.

Correct me if im wrong, isnt it true, if you show the bottom of your shoe to an arab person, they are offended?


no. arab men kiss one another on the cheek only, alternating between left and right. the more cursory and perfunctory the greeting, the fewer kisses. Daoud Daoud was happy to see me and enjoyed our discussions and the number of kisses was increased accordningly.

[actsnoblemartin]

I have mixed feelings about the iraq war, I have friends for it and against it.

I believe it is legitimate if one believes a war can not be one, to come to the logical conclusion that the war should be ended, and.... it is NOT an act of appeasment, surrender, cowardice, un-patrioticness, or any other negative attack... In my humble opinion....

[retiredman]

I have heard of this, and even seen it. I believe this is a part of arab culture.

Correct me if im wrong, isnt it true, if you show the bottom of your shoe to an arab person, they are offended?


you certainly would never cross your legs, or put you feet up on an ottoman

[actsnoblemartin]

maineman is RIGHT, kissing the quoran is a sign of respect. Dont take my word for it, this link that i found on my own research should prove it

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

[actsnoblemartin]

I mean this with sincere respect, were you a diplomat.

You have talked about expieriences in the middle east, I would like to hear about them if you dont mind sharing.

Insight on the middle east is not a bad thing


you certainly would never cross your legs, or put you feet up on an ottoman

[retiredman]

I mean this with sincere respect, were you a diplomat.

You have talked about expieriences in the middle east, I would like to hear about them if you dont mind sharing.

Insight on the middle east is not a bad thing

given your affiliations here, I refuse to "share" my experiences with you without specific questions. From my perspective, you have made up your mind and chosen your side on this, and many other arguments on here. I will eagerly rebut positions you and your friends might take, but I am not about to engage in "Storytime with Maineman as He shares his experiences with the UN Truce Supervision Organization" with ACN so that all of martin and all of his friends can denigrate and ridicule it - at best - and call me a liar at worst. I have Zero interest in that.

[Hagbard Celine]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.
Would you have the same attitude if someone had use the Bible for target practice?

[82Marine89]

Would you have the same attitude if someone had use the Bible for target practice?

I would, but do you actually think one of those dune coons would have kissed it and apologized to us?

[dread]

I would, but do you actually think one of those dune coons would have kissed it and apologized to us?



precisely

[Hagbard Celine]

I would, but do you actually think one of those dune coons would have kissed it and apologized to us?

Probably not, but that's what makes us better than them. Our goal isn't to crawl down into the toilet with them, it's to beat them with our superiority both culturally and militarily.

[Yurt]

I saw what I saw. I did what I did. I was treated the way I was treated. All of those experiences and observations lead me to believe that kissing the quran is seen as a sign of respect. I realise you have googled the issue and have come up with a different interpretation. Have your real world experiences tended to support or negate your internet knowledge?

the guy is an islamic scholar. you are intellectually dishonest. as if, just because you see something, then of course those people, NON scholars, must be right. i already told you that there are muslims who do not know, hence the question that the scholar answered. i further gave you another site wherein more people were asking about it. it is clear that the people you saw either:

1. did not know the significance

2. knew of the significance and let you kiss it because they secretly giggled that a christian was validating the quran and saying that it is in face the true word of allah.

fact remains, you now have the answer, it clearly shows you are wrong. you are dishonest person who refuses to concede that you were wrong. it is that simple.

internet knowledge has in fact negated real world experiences. just because i or others think we know something, we wonder so we often google it (like going to the library before and researching the topic) and find that in fact we were wrong. the examples i could give you numerous. in fact, many muslims go to islamic internet forums to get their questions answered because they do not understand something about islam and/or people/custom says that it is this way. if you knew anything about islam you would know that muslims have MANY different local customs that do not always follow proper islamic principles. your ignorance is staggering. to suggest that your real world experience is more knowledgable than a scholar is arrogant. why do you think there are so many islamic websites to teach others about islam.

[dread]

Probably not, but that's what makes us better than them. Our goal isn't to crawl down into the toilet with them, it's to beat them with our superiority both culturally and militarily.



Most people dont think we are better than them. They are too busy apologizing for anything that offends their tender sensibilities.

[Yurt]

maineman is RIGHT, kissing the quoran is a sign of respect. Dont take my word for it, this link that i found on my own research should prove it

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A055rcKoran.htm

you're using a christian source to prove something about islam? the pope should never have kissed that book. i used to visit a muslim forum and most were shocked and puzzled at why he did that. some were pissed because it showed his ignorance in observing islamic custom and others because they felt he was being dishonest as kissing it gave validity to the book and they did not believe he would do that. and what exactly is it that you do not believe about my source?

[Hagbard Celine]

Most people dont think we are better than them. They are too busy apologizing for anything that offends their tender sensibilities.

Well that's always the issue with you guys isn't it? Some radical "libs" exhibit this negative behavior so that is supposed to excuse you some how? Whatever happened to being the bigger man? Just because some people go to the other extreme (to walk on eggshells so that they won't offend the Muslims) does that excuse the other extreme (to offend them purposely by using their holy book as a shooting target?) WTF?

[ranger]

Well that's always the issue with you guys isn't it? Some radical "libs" exhibit this negative behavior so that is supposed to excuse you some how? Whatever happened to being the bigger man? Just because some people go to the other extreme (to walk on eggshells so that they won't offend the Muslims) does that excuse the other extreme (to offend them purposely by using their holy book as a shooting target?) WTF?

I personally am very offended by this. I feel the soldier should be disciplined for wasting ammunition. If you're going to shoot at something Muslim, make it a person for crying out loud!

[actsnoblemartin]

perhaps the pope is a moron, i certainly wouldnt have done it.


you're using a christian source to prove something about islam? the pope should never have kissed that book. i used to visit a muslim forum and most were shocked and puzzled at why he did that. some were pissed because it showed his ignorance in observing islamic custom and others because they felt he was being dishonest as kissing it gave validity to the book and they did not believe he would do that. and what exactly is it that you do not believe about my source?

[Gaffer]

Kissing the qoran is an act of dhimitude by any non-muslim. Doing so acknowledges muslim superiority.

As Yurt said, different cultures view the qoran differently. It's the only thing that keeps the muslim world from uniting against the rest of the world completely.

[namvet]

they should give that guy a medal. send it home and we'll use it for toliet paper. at a walmart near you :pee:

[FSUK]

It was good that the military apologised for such a offensive and abhorent act.

Some people on this forum are just too narrow minded and intolerant- that they are incapable of differentiating between right and wrong.


some of you on this forum are simply :pee: f******... :fu::fu::fu::fu::fu::finger3:

[stephanie]

:lol:

calling us crazy?
this from the person who post
1 pissing monkey
5 smilies who are flashing a big middle finger.
1 smilie giving a double finger salute

and a bunch of **********'s

:uhoh:

[Gaffer]

It was good that the military apologised for such a offensive and abhorent act.

Some people on this forum are just too narrow minded and intolerant- that they are incapable of differentiating between right and wrong.


some of you on this forum are simply :pee: f******... :fu::fu::fu::fu::fu::finger3:

Some people on this forum don't understand the meaning of dhimitude. Your one of them, silly boy.

[retiredman]

Some people on this forum don't understand the meaning of dhimitude. Your one of them, silly boy.

"dhimmitude" (two M's) is a made up word which has a variety of definitions. Which one are you using/misusing?

[Yurt]

the guy is an islamic scholar. you are intellectually dishonest. as if, just because you see something, then of course those people, NON scholars, must be right. i already told you that there are muslims who do not know, hence the question that the scholar answered. i further gave you another site wherein more people were asking about it. it is clear that the people you saw either:

1. did not know the significance

2. knew of the significance and let you kiss it because they secretly giggled that a christian was validating the quran and saying that it is in face the true word of allah.

fact remains, you now have the answer, it clearly shows you are wrong. you are dishonest person who refuses to concede that you were wrong. it is that simple.

internet knowledge has in fact negated real world experiences. just because i or others think we know something, we wonder so we often google it (like going to the library before and researching the topic) and find that in fact we were wrong. the examples i could give you numerous. in fact, many muslims go to islamic internet forums to get their questions answered because they do not understand something about islam and/or people/custom says that it is this way. if you knew anything about islam you would know that muslims have MANY different local customs that do not always follow proper islamic principles. your ignorance is staggering. to suggest that your real world experience is more knowledgable than a scholar is arrogant. why do you think there are so many islamic websites to teach others about islam.

:dance:

[DragonStryk72]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.

Yes, so next time, we can just put the Bible up there and use it for target, I'm certain that would be better.

[Gaffer]

"dhimmitude" (two M's) is a made up word which has a variety of definitions. Which one are you using/misusing?

If it's a made up word then how many m's are used is not important. And I use it in its proper sense, a non-muslim that submits to islam, apologizes for islam, pays the jizya tax. And generally kisses the muslim's asses.

I'm sure you have a more dhimmi correct definition.

[Kathianne]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.
They are doing what must be done, I harbor no ill will. Bottom line, while we shouldn't be selling ourselves out, like not celebrating Thanksgiving or Christmas, we do need to be aware of local customs. Shooting the Koran is a bit different than pointing out the violence contained within.

[Silver]

"dhimmitude" (two M's) is a made up word which has a variety of definitions. Which one are you using/misusing?

Considering the topic and tone of the thread, it would seem a simple matter to guess what definition applys....

A more recent pejorative usage variant of "dhimmi" and "dhimmitude" divorces the words from the historical context of jihad and applies them to situations where non-Muslims in the West are championing Islamic causes above others. "Dhimmi" is treated as analogous to "Quisling" within this context.

Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborationists.
In contemporary usage, "Quisling" is synonymous with "traitor", and particularly applied to politicians who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.

[Yurt]

mfm ran like wild banshee from the debate in this thread, oh wait, he bravely "told" gaffer about dhimmis, LOL

[actsnoblemartin]

where in the middle east did you live, how long?



I disagree with your interpretation, yurt.

And I do not portray myself as any sort of expert on Islam. I merely state that I have lived in the middle east and I offer the knowledge I have gained while doing so.

[actsnoblemartin]

my point is, there are not passages in the torah or bible, because the bible is half jewish, old testament that say go kill abortion doctors, but we both know islamic terrorists could show us passages saying you see it allah said i could kill you


irrelevant. normal muslims do not behead people, just like normal christians do not kill abortion doctors.

[retiredman]

mfm ran like wild banshee from the debate in this thread, oh wait, he bravely "told" gaffer about dhimmis, LOL

you had your google search, and I had personal experience. I guess that makes YOU the Islam expert... or at least points out that we really have little to discuss between one another - especially when you continue to exhibit your desire to maintain the pissing contest format, counselor.

[retiredman]

my point is, there are not passages in the torah or bible, because the bible is half jewish, old testament that say go kill abortion doctors, but we both know islamic terrorists could show us passages saying you see it allah said i could kill you

do you honestly think that there are not rather bloodthirsty passages in the Old Testament?

[retiredman]

where in the middle east did you live, how long?

I have answered that question for you on several previous occasions, martin.

[actsnoblemartin]

that does beg the question, what does make one an expert or atleast knowledgeable on islam


you had your google search, and I had personal experience. I guess that makes YOU the Islam expert... or at least points out that we really have little to discuss between one another - especially when you continue to exhibit your desire to maintain the pissing contest format, counselor.

[actsnoblemartin]

and if i forgot, and i un-worthy of asking again? :laugh2:

and for the record in the last 12-24 hours, I AM being nice to you :)


I have answered that question for you on several previous occasions, martin.

[retiredman]

that does beg the question, what does make one an expert or atleast knowledgeable on islam

obviously, the counselor and I have different opinions on that.

[retiredman]

and if i forgot, and i un-worthy of asking again? :laugh2:
you can ask again if you like, I have no intention of answering you yet again.

[dread]

you had your google search, and I had personal experience. I guess that makes YOU the Islam expert... or at least points out that we really have little to discuss between one another - especially when you continue to exhibit your desire to maintain the pissing contest format, counselor.



Like you can personally vouch and account that this Muslim you befriended has NO ties with terrorism.

[retiredman]

Like you can personally vouch and account that this Muslim you befriended has NO ties with terrorism.


I befriended scores of muslims. many of them remain my friends to this day.

[dread]

I befriended scores of muslims. many of them remain my friends to this day.



HOLY FUCK! The enemy really is here!


Oh and you never answered my question....Probably because you cant vouch for them. God you are such an appeaser. Thanks for proving to muslims ( what they already felt) that we Americans are slave monkeys.

[retiredman]

HOLY FUCK! The enemy really is here!


Oh and you never answered my question....Probably because you cant vouch for them. God you are such an appeaser. Thanks for proving to muslims ( what they already felt) that we Americans are slave monkeys.


I cannot "prove" that you are not a terrorist.

I have had decades long friendships with many muslims from the middle east. I have entertained several when they came to the states as tourists - I have provided a home away from home for many of their children attending college in America. I know them all to be honest and peaceful, and interesting people.

[dread]

I cannot "prove" that you are not a terrorist.

I have had decades long friendships with many muslims from the middle east. I have entertained several when they came to the states as tourists - I have provided a home away from home for many of their children attending college in America. I know them all to be honest and peaceful, and interesting people.




When you threatened to kill Swamp Fox ( aka Ranger) and he told you to pm him a time and place THAT was your chance to find out all about me and whether or not we both were true enemies of the U.S.


But you would rather run and hide and hang with muslims I guess.

[retiredman]

When you threatened to kill Swamp Fox ( aka Ranger) and he told you to pm him a time and place THAT was your chance to find out all about me and whether or not we both were true enemies of the U.S.


But you would rather run and hide and hang with muslims I guess.

domestic enemies of the constitution... a difficult mantle for purportedly "patriotic" folks to shoulder, no doubt.... but when one willingly pisses on the constitution, the categorization is, unfortunately, accurate.

I rarely "hang" with muslims anymore. All I said was that I had made friends with scores of them during my service in the middle east, and that I maintain many of those friendships today.

[glockmail]

I have, actually, in a meeting with a senior Amal official - who has since been assassinated.

In fact, he and I traded not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six kisses on the cheek during that meeting as well. It was a record between UNTSO officers in meetings with Amal leader, Daoud Daoud. The previous record was four.
I bought my UNTSO teammates numerous rounds of beer over that event.

That proves that you're gay.

[Yurt]

you had your google search, and I had personal experience. I guess that makes YOU the Islam expert... or at least points out that we really have little to discuss between one another - especially when you continue to exhibit your desire to maintain the pissing contest format, counselor.

what a cop out. i gave you expert opinion (you choose to ignore that expert) and all you have is what you witnessed. you're an intellectual coward. i have shown you that muslims do get it wrong and do not understand, hence the question to the expert that i provided and you dismiss as a google search. from now on no one should accept anything from the internet from the likes of you. i gave you two sites that asked that question on the internet and both sites gave that expert's answer, but oh no, because i googled it, you must be right. either provide another source that shows i am wrong or admit you are wrong.

btw, were they shia or sunni "muslims". using your logic, if i go to kansas and see americans practicing something, then that must be true for all americans.

[retiredman]

what a cop out. i gave you expert opinion (you choose to ignore that expert) and all you have is what you witnessed. you're an intellectual coward. i have shown you that muslims do get it wrong and do not understand, hence the question to the expert that i provided and you dismiss as a google search. from now on no one should accept anything from the internet from the likes of you. i gave you two sites that asked that question on the internet and both sites gave that expert's answer, but oh no, because i googled it, you must be right. either provide another source that shows i am wrong or admit you are wrong.

btw, were they shia or sunni "muslims". using your logic, if i go to kansas and see americans practicing something, then that must be true for all americans.

I would suggest that muslim mullahs in the middle east are less inclined than muslims in America to "get it wrong". I really am not a coward about anything, counselor. I only state what I have seen and witnessed in the region. Like I have said before, my JOB for two years was gaining the trust of leaders of the political and paramilitary communities in Lebanon. I realize that, from your perspective, your google searches provide you with a much more comprehensive understanding of the middle east and Islam than I could have ever possibly gained doing that job, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. And in answer to your question, the mullahs that I was with when they met with Lebanese Christian clerics were sunnis.

[Yurt]

I would suggest that muslim mullahs in the middle east are less inclined than muslims in America to "get it wrong". I really am not a coward about anything, counselor. I only state what I have seen and witnessed in the region. Like I have said before, my JOB for two years was gaining the trust of leaders of the political and paramilitary communities in Lebanon. I realize that, from your perspective, your google searches provide you with a much more comprehensive understanding of the middle east and Islam than I could have ever possibly gained doing that job, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. And in answer to your question, the mullahs that I was with when they met with Lebanese Christian clerics were sunnis.

again with the dishonesty. it is not the searches which you wrongly keep harping on, it is the expert opinion i provided. multiple people on the internet had the same question and multiple people were given the same answer. but because you saw .0001% of muslims in an area that is .0001% of the muslim world then you fraction of a very small experience decades ago makes the scholar wrong. not me, the scholar.

i guess because slavery was practiced and upheld by christians once upon a time, then slavery must be valid because i know that christians owned slaves and i did not get that off a google search. i was called a honky, cracker, whatnot by mexicans in junior high, about the same time you were allegedly in the ME, that must mean that ALL mexicans believe in racist ideology.

[retiredman]

again with the dishonesty. it is not the searches which you wrongly keep harping on, it is the expert opinion i provided. multiple people on the internet had the same question and multiple people were given the same answer. but because you saw .0001% of muslims in an area that is .0001% of the muslim world then you fraction of a very small experience decades ago makes the scholar wrong. not me, the scholar.

i guess because slavery was practiced and upheld by christians once upon a time, then slavery must be valid because i know that christians owned slaves and i did not get that off a google search. i was called a honky, cracker, whatnot by mexicans in junior high, about the same time you were allegedly in the ME, that must mean that ALL mexicans believe in racist ideology.

As I have said over and over again. I have never claimed i was a scholar...only that I had experience living in the middle east and I have reported what I saw and experienced. But again...I am sure that the expert opinions you have found in your internet searches give you what you feel is a greater understanding of the middle east....so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Gaffer]

I would suggest that muslim mullahs in the middle east are less inclined than muslims in America to "get it wrong". I really am not a coward about anything, counselor. I only state what I have seen and witnessed in the region. Like I have said before, my JOB for two years was gaining the trust of leaders of the political and paramilitary communities in Lebanon. I realize that, from your perspective, your google searches provide you with a much more comprehensive understanding of the middle east and Islam than I could have ever possibly gained doing that job, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. And in answer to your question, the mullahs that I was with when they met with Lebanese Christian clerics were sunnis.

You state that you have seen certain things pertaining to the muslims while in the middle east. Ever question that the niceness and friendliness might have been for your benefit and to mislead you into believing they were something they weren't? Spending time in the ME and making nice with a bunch of mullahs does not make you an expert on the ME. It does qualify you for dhimmi status as you always apologize for them.

If a site listed here is not evidence enough for you then you don't need to be listing sites to make your points any more. Your opinions will be questioned and your googled sites will be ignored. Makes it hard to prove your points but then, you set the rules.

[Yurt]

As I have said over and over again. I have never claimed i was a scholar...only that I had experience living in the middle east and I have reported what I saw and experienced. But again...I am sure that the expert opinions you have found in your internet searches give you what you feel is a greater understanding of the middle east....so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

you playing games. you are saying the scholar is wrong, not me. and yes, i have often shown more knowledge about islam than you. i guess just because your church does something, then that must be that all christians must and that must mean that all christians can or should - because that is your experience.

but anymore discussion with you on this topic is worthless because your logic makes no sense. you do not refute the scholar, you selfishly and illogically cling to your tiny, tiny experience as knowledge. good lord, you will never grow, because everything you saw there MUST be right. that is ignorant

[retiredman]

you playing games. you are saying the scholar is wrong, not me. and yes, i have often shown more knowledge about islam than you. i guess just because your church does something, then that must be that all christians must and that must mean that all christians can or should - because that is your experience.

but anymore discussion with you on this topic is worthless because your logic makes no sense.

I have always felt that my discussions with leaders of the various factions in Lebanon were somewhat indicative of the rank and file of those various factions. I always assumed that leaders got to be leaders by accurately representing the positions of their constituents.

And I am sure that you have claimed many victories over me... and I am sure that your posse here would agree. That alone is not really proof of any sort of superiority of knowledge on your part....only proof of your claims to such superiority.

Again. I am sure that you believe that google has provided you with what you consider to be an extraordinarily rich level of understanding and experience concerning the middle east and I am equally sure that you believe that my two years of experience on the ground in the middle east is meaningless when compared to your juggernaut of internet-obtained knowledge. I am also sure that I disagree with that assessment....so we'll have to agree to disagree.... or are you not quite through with attacking my intellect?

[Silver]

I have always felt that my discussions with leaders of the various factions in Lebanon were somewhat indicative of the rank and file of those various factions. I always assumed that leaders got to be leaders by accurately representing the positions of their constituents.
Then you are ignorant of politics abroad and at home ....thats surprising


And I am sure that you have claimed many victories over me... and I am sure that your posse here would agree. That alone is not really proof of any sort of superiority of knowledge on your part....only proof of your claims to such superiority.

Again. I am sure that you believe that google has provided you with what you consider to be an extraordinarily rich level of understanding and experience concerning the middle east and I am equally sure that you believe that my two years of experience on the ground in the middle east is meaningless when compared to your juggernaut of internet-obtained knowledge. I am also sure that I disagree with that assessment....so we'll have to agree to disagree.... or are you not quite through with attacking my intellect?

Its not your intellect that is in question...its the logic you use to arrive at the conclusions you arrive at....there is more to life than YOUR experience....obviously you have not experienced everything.....
If you still imagine that every Mulsim is the same as those you came into contact with.. you're wrong....maybe you've met the exception, not the rule.

[retiredman]

Its not your intellect that is in question...its the logic you use to arrive at the conclusions you arrive at....there is more to life than YOUR experience....obviously you have not experienced everything.....
If you still imagine that every Mulsim is the same as those you came into contact with.. you're wrong....maybe you've met the exception, not the rule.

I have never suggested that every muslim is the same as anything. and you may not have questioned my intellect - yet - or on this board in your present incarnation - but the author of the post to which I was responding has done so on numerous occasions...but again... I am certain that he is perfectly justified in doing so because I most certainly was the initial perpetrator and, therefore, richly deserve any and all denigrations from him.

And clearly, my experiences in the middle east working for two solid years with political and paramilitary leaders from a wide variety of arab and muslim organizations pale in comparison to the wisdom that others on here have gained through studious and diligent web searches.

[Kathianne]

I have never suggested that every muslim is the same as anything. and you may not have questioned my intellect - yet - or on this board in your present incarnation - but the author of the post to which I was responding has done so on numerous occasions...but again... I am certain that he is perfectly justified in doing so because I most certainly was the initial perpetrator and, therefore, richly deserve any and all denigrations from him.

And clearly, my experiences in the middle east working for two solid years with political and paramilitary leaders from a wide variety of arab and muslim organizations pale in comparison to the wisdom that others on here have gained through studious and diligent web searches.

Look at the bolded. Your experiences may or may not have given you perspective. However, the ability of others to draw upon your or others experiences does not make them less relevent or correct.

You are the one trying to make YOUR experiences the be all and end all and you are wrong.

[Silver]

I have never suggested that every muslim is the same as anything. and you may not have questioned my intellect - yet - or on this board in your present incarnation - but the author of the post to which I was responding has done so on numerous occasions...but again... I am certain that he is perfectly justified in doing so because I most certainly was the initial perpetrator and, therefore, richly deserve any and all denigrations from him.

And clearly, my experiences in the middle east working for two solid years with political and paramilitary leaders from a wide variety of arab and muslim organizations pale in comparison to the wisdom that others on here have gained through studious and diligent web searches.

Please ... you're making me all teary eyed.....:lame2:

[retiredman]

Please ... you're making me all teary eyed.....:lame2:

please don't.

continue to google search and continue to proclaim the wisdom you thereby gain to be infallible and your insights untouchable.

I fully understand.

[Gaffer]

I have always felt that my discussions with leaders of the various factions in Lebanon were somewhat indicative of the rank and file of those various factions. I always assumed that leaders got to be leaders by accurately representing the positions of their constituents.

And I am sure that you have claimed many victories over me... and I am sure that your posse here would agree. That alone is not really proof of any sort of superiority of knowledge on your part....only proof of your claims to such superiority.

Again. I am sure that you believe that google has provided you with what you consider to be an extraordinarily rich level of understanding and experience concerning the middle east and I am equally sure that you believe that my two years of experience on the ground in the middle east is meaningless when compared to your juggernaut of internet-obtained knowledge. I am also sure that I disagree with that assessment....so we'll have to agree to disagree.... or are you not quite through with attacking my intellect?

The "rank and file" as you call them didn't elect those leaders. They were mullahs. They were followed because the qoran says they must be followed. sharia law dictates everything.

[retiredman]

The "rank and file" as you call them didn't elect those leaders. They were mullahs. They were followed because the qoran says they must be followed. sharia law dictates everything.

actually, the leaders of AMAL and the ba'athists and the PLO and the Lebanese National Movement and the Mourabitoom and a whole assortment of other political and paramilitary organizations were not mullahs in any way. Why would you presume to know otherwise?

[Gaffer]

actually, the leaders of AMAL and the ba'athists and the PLO and the Lebanese National Movement and the Mourabitoom and a whole assortment of other political and paramilitary organizations were not mullahs in any way. Why would you presume to know otherwise?

Because you said you met with mullahs and christian clerics. And those "leaders" you met with were appointed by their dictatorial organization heads. They were given their position because they had a knack for convincing people like you they were good guys. They wanted the un to either support them or stay out of their way.

You don't send big bad bubba to a negotiating table. You send a smiling, sparkle in the eye shyster.

[Yurt]

see, any further discussion with, despite everyone telling you that your logic is wrong, is futile because you have no intellectual honesty

[retiredman]

Because you said you met with mullahs and christian clerics. And those "leaders" you met with were appointed by their dictatorial organization heads. They were given their position because they had a knack for convincing people like you they were good guys. They wanted the un to either support them or stay out of their way.

You don't send big bad bubba to a negotiating table. You send a smiling, sparkle in the eye shyster.


I wonder where you gained your "insight" into the inner motivations of the various political and paramilitary organizations I dealt with. Did google provide you, as well as yurt and others, with this self proclaimed proficiency in the area of arab political organizations and leaders? I stated that I had been to a meeting where a christian cleric meeting with sunni mullahs kissed the quran as a well received gesture of respect. That's a fact. As I said earlier, I spent two whole years in Lebanon and my entire job was interacting with leaders of a wide variety of political and paramilitary groups. These leaders were not put in place by any sharia edict, but by normal political processes. And they all were attending meetings with one another nearly every week or so and UN representation was always requested. I went to a lot of meetings. Again....your insight has been obtained....how?

[retiredman]

see, any further discussion with, despite everyone telling you that your logic is wrong, is futile because you have no intellectual honesty

I an honest at all levels. You have pretty much beaten that "intellectual honesty" insult to the point where it is overly shopworn. Like I said. I lived there for two years and worked with leaders of every major political and paramilitary organization in the country...and, according to you, any insight I may have thought I gained in that endeavor is outdated and irrelevant and pales in comparision to your islamic scholarship gained through diligent internet research. All I can do is politely say that I disagree with that assessment.

[Yurt]

I an honest at all levels. You have pretty much beaten that "intellectual honesty" insult to the point where it is overly shopworn. Like I said. I lived there for two years and worked with leaders of every major political and paramilitary organization in the country...and, according to you, any insight I may have thought I gained in that endeavor is outdated and irrelevant and pales in comparision to your islamic scholarship gained through diligent internet research. All I can do is politely say that I disagree with that assessment.

so any knowledge gained on the internet that contradicts your experience must be wrong? those "muslims" must be right? that scholar must be wrong? the fact that many muslims don't know and the scholar had to help them, nope, doesn't mean a thing because what you saw?

i guess you never use the internet for any knowledge. we might as well throw it away, because mfm saw something and he must be right. you have set the rules for no one to accept anything you ever post from an internet cite. nice going, especially when you are on the internet.

why do you think those muslims felt comfortable asking that question on the internet? why do you think a muslim internet site feels comfortable expressing that expert opinion to the whole world? are you saying they are lying?

[retiredman]

so any knowledge gained on the internet that contradicts your experience must be wrong? those "muslims" must be right? that scholar must be wrong? the fact that many muslims don't know and the scholar had to help them, nope, doesn't mean a thing because what you saw?

i guess you never use the internet for any knowledge. we might as well throw it away, because mfm saw something and he must be right. you have set the rules for no one to accept anything you ever post from an internet cite. nice going, especially when you are on the internet.

why do you think those muslims felt comfortable asking that question on the internet? why do you think a muslim internet site feels comfortable expressing that expert opinion to the whole world? are you saying they are lying?


I have never said that your internet knowledge is wrong. You have been the one who claimed that my knowledge gained while on detached duty from the navy with the UN in lebanon is completely outdated and irrelevant. Clearly, you believe that what you have learned on the internet is infinitely more relevant than what I learned in country for two years. All I can say is that we must agree to disagree.

[Yurt]

I have never said that your internet knowledge is wrong. You have been the one who claimed that my knowledge gained while on detached duty from the navy with the UN in lebanon is completely outdated and irrelevant. Clearly, you believe that what you have learned on the internet is infinitely more relevant than what I learned in country for two years. All I can say is that we must agree to disagree.

if is not wrong, then why do you believe you are right? you're making no sense. you have belittled my internet "google" search from the beginning, so don't cry over your decades old experience with .000000001% of the muslim world. kindly answer the last paragraph.

[Gaffer]

I wonder where you gained your "insight" into the inner motivations of the various political and paramilitary organizations I dealt with. Did google provide you, as well as yurt and others, with this self proclaimed proficiency in the area of arab political organizations and leaders? I stated that I had been to a meeting where a christian cleric meeting with sunni mullahs kissed the quran as a well received gesture of respect. That's a fact. As I said earlier, I spent two whole years in Lebanon and my entire job was interacting with leaders of a wide variety of political and paramilitary groups. These leaders were not put in place by any sharia edict, but by normal political processes. And they all were attending meetings with one another nearly every week or so and UN representation was always requested. I went to a lot of meetings. Again....your insight has been obtained....how?

My insight is obtained by various means. But none of that is acceptable by you because I have not been there myself. If I do ever go there then I will come back on here and declare myself an expert on the middle east just like you. I won't have to quote sites or look things up, I can just belittle people for not having my experience.

[retiredman]

if is not wrong, then why do you believe you are right? you're making no sense. you have belittled my internet "google" search from the beginning, so don't cry over your decades old experience with .000000001% of the muslim world. kindly answer the last paragraph.

I am sure that there are muslim scholars all over the internet, yurt...and I am sure that you have read some of them....and I am sure that, from your perspective, that makes you much more capable to discuss the middle east and Islam'r role there than me. As I said, I disagree. I understand that you feel such research done in front of your PC gives you an infinitely greater understanding of the middle east than someone who lived and worked in the region and whose job it was to stay connected to all the major political and paramilitary players in his area of operation. I wonder what percentage of the muslim world you have experiences with? Again....we should just agree to disagree. I cannot dispute the websites you found....I can only say what I saw and experienced on the ground in country. I doubt that you can prove that any of your websites has overwhelming support or readership from a preponderant number of middle eastern muslims, but I am sure that their readership must be measureable somehow.

It would be like me googling "law profession + central california + current trends" and thnking that, after reading thirty or forty of the sites that came up, I could be somehow as knowledgeable as you concerning YOUR profession.

[retiredman]

My insight is obtained by various means. But none of that is acceptable by you because I have not been there myself. If I do ever go there then I will come back on here and declare myself an expert on the middle east just like you. I won't have to quote sites or look things up, I can just belittle people for not having my experience.


any source of information is acceptable to me. It would seem that you feel that your sources unilaterally and unconditionally trump my experiences at each and every turn, however. I am not belittling you, gaffer.... can you see where you might be belittling me just a bit?

[actsnoblemartin]

wow, this thread should be called pissing contest 101.

I truly hate to see this :((

[Yurt]

I am sure that there are muslim scholars all over the internet, yurt...and I am sure that you have read some of them....and I am sure that, from your perspective, that makes you much more capable to discuss the middle east and Islam'r role there than me. As I said, I disagree. I understand that you feel such research done in front of your PC gives you an infinitely greater understanding of the middle east than someone who lived and worked in the region and whose job it was to stay connected to all the major political and paramilitary players in his area of operation. I wonder what percentage of the muslim world you have experiences with? Again....we should just agree to disagree. I cannot dispute the websites you found....I can only say what I saw and experienced on the ground in country. I doubt that you can prove that any of your websites has overwhelming support or readership from a preponderant number of middle eastern muslims, but I am sure that their readership must be measureable somehow.

It would be like me googling "law profession + central california + current trends" and thnking that, after reading thirty or forty of the sites that came up, I could be somehow as knowledgeable as you concerning YOUR profession.

that is a faulty comparison. if somone lived in a remote part of the world, and wanted an answer on christianity, are you saying that such an answer would not be acceptable over the net? say washing of feet, are you saying that someone who has never seen or heard about feeting washing could not find accurate information about on the net? give me a break.

[Yurt]

wow, this thread should be called pissing contest 101.

I truly hate to see this :((

then close your eyes

[actsnoblemartin]

well excuse me for having an opinion :laugh2:


then close your eyes

[retiredman]

that is a faulty comparison. if somone lived in a remote part of the world, and wanted an answer on christianity, are you saying that such an answer would not be acceptable over the net? say washing of feet, are you saying that someone who has never seen or heard about feeting washing could not find accurate information about on the net? give me a break.


so you have read the writings of a microscopic sample of muslims in the world and, as a result, know the accurate truth about the religion and are qualified to set everyone straight on all of its customs and traditions, whereas I have lived in the muslim world where I had to meet with and gain the trust of scores of muslim leaders, but that experience pales in comparision to your research? Have I got that right? If so, we must agree to disagree, methinks.

[Yurt]

so you have read the writings of a microscopic sample of muslims in the world and, as a result, know the accurate truth about the religion and are qualified to set everyone straight on all of its customs and traditions, whereas I have lived in the muslim world where I had to meet with and gain the trust of scores of muslim leaders, but that experience pales in comparision to your research? Have I got that right? If so, we must agree to disagree, methinks.

worthless...and you again ignored my questions, why? because to answer them would show you the error of your thinking...

that website is one of the most popular islamic websites on the net for islamic knowledge. but continue knocking an expert because you know more than the expert. :lame2:

i found two additional muslim forums, both sunni, and both from europe, that site the source i gave you. what are the odds of that, muslims from all over the world using the source i gave you to answer the question about kissing the quran. one asked the question in Feb 08. but you continue keeping your head in the sand, no sweat off my back if muslims laugh at you.

[retiredman]

worthless...and you again ignored my questions, why? because to answer them would show you the error of your thinking...

that website is one of the most popular islamic websites on the net for islamic knowledge. but continue knocking an expert because you know more than the expert. :lame2:

i found two additional muslim forums, both sunni, and both from europe, that site the source i gave you. what are the odds of that, muslims from all over the world using the source i gave you to answer the question about kissing the quran. one asked the question in Feb 08. but you continue keeping your head in the sand, no sweat off my back if muslims laugh at you.


I am sure that it is quite popular. Of the billions of muslims all over the world, what percentage do you think use the source you listed as their source for their answers about their own religion? What percentage do you think use the internet, period?

Actually, as I stated earlier, muslims don't laugh at me. They email me...they visit me... they have their college student children visit me.

How do the muslims whose words you read on the internet interact and react with you?

again.... you research islam on the internet and that makes you an expert. I lived with them and worked with them for two years, and that, according to you, means absolutely nothing.

we should really agree to disagree about this.

[Yurt]

still running from my question about feet washing, figures, you whine and moan when others won't answer your questions - hypocrite.

[retiredman]

still running from my question about feet washing, figures, you whine and moan when others won't answer your questions - hypocrite.

what was your question about washing feet? and how does it relate to the question of whether or not the general was showing respect for the quran when he kissed it, and whether his gesture was appreciated by the muslims in front of whom he did so?

[Yurt]

what was your question about washing feet? and how does it relate to the question of whether or not the general was showing respect for the quran when he kissed it, and whether his gesture was appreciated by the muslims in front of whom he did so?

you can't use the scroll button....the question goes to show that one who knows nothing about feet washing, never seen it or heard about, and lives in a remote area of the world can learn the truth about feet washing from the internet...

[retiredman]

you can't use the scroll button....the question goes to show that one who knows nothing about feet washing, never seen it or heard about, and lives in a remote area of the world can learn the truth about feet washing from the internet...


I am sure that one could find several different interpretations of feet washing by diligently searching the internet.

And, I take it, this goes to prove your contention that your being able to search the internet has made you infinitely more knowledgeable about Islam and infinitely more experienced with muslims in their society than I am.

Again...we should agree to disagree about that.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

A soldier used the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice, forcing the chief U.S. commander in Baghdad to issue a formal apology on Saturday.

Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, apologized to leaders in Radhwaniya, in the western outskirts of Baghdad, for the staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader assigned to the headquarters of the 64th Armored Regiment. He also read a letter of apology by the shooter.

It was the first time the incident -- which tested the relationship between U.S.-backed Sunni militiamen and the military -- was made public since it was discovered May 11.

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others at the apology ceremony. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented is as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.quran/index.html




Personally I think this whole story sucks and everyone needs to get over themselves.

I would venture a guess that most Christians would find it very offensive to find out a Muslim sniper was practicing sending rounds down range with the Bible as his target.

I would also venture a guess that most reasonable Christians would accept an apology from a Muslim who kissed the bible publically, and denounced the act as reprehensible.

[retiredman]

I would venture a guess that most Christians would find it very offensive to find out a Muslim sniper was practicing sending rounds down range with the Bible as his target.

I would also venture a guess that most reasonable Christians would accept an apology from a Muslim who kissed the bible publically, and denounced the act as reprehensible.


exactly

[Yurt]

all residents of san luis obispo are 20 feet tall, have IQ's of 250....that is my personal experience...don't bother checking the internet to see if my experience is correct

[mundame]

I would venture a guess that most Christians would find it very offensive to find out a Muslim sniper was practicing sending rounds down range with the Bible as his target.

I would also venture a guess that most reasonable Christians would accept an apology from a Muslim who kissed the bible publically, and denounced the act as reprehensible.


They won't do it, though. Instead, Muslims kill Christians; they kill anyone caught with a Bible in Saudi Arabia. No churches are allowed to be built; no Christians can even be buried in their earth.

So I say, shoot those Korans. Works for me.

If they want us to show respect for their religion, let them get some basic civilization themselves.

It is a terrible mistake for us to constantly give way, give way, give way to Muslims while they never give an inch to us.

That way they win.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

They won't do it, though. Instead, Muslims kill Christians; they kill anyone caught with a Bible in Saudi Arabia. No churches are allowed to be built; no Christians can even be buried in their earth.

So I say, shoot those Korans. Works for me.

If they want us to show respect for their religion, let them get some basic civilization themselves.

It is a terrible mistake for us to constantly give way, give way, give way to Muslims while they never give an inch to us.

That way they win.

Someone could use that same wide brush, and say that Christians kill doctors, they blow up buildings that give out birth control, etc....making such broad accusations undermines the basis of our great country.....

How long ago could you imagine a US militay official kissing a Koran and apologizing.,....I would have never thought....

There are good Chriatians and evil ones, just as there are good Muslim folks and evil ones, as well.....

"Trust, but verify," could certainly be re-written to sum up my thoughts....trust, but wear an iron collar! I am not about to put myself in a situation where my noggin is going to be seperated from my torso, but I cannot blindly hate all people of a religion, because there is a radical element...

It would be the same to paint all Mormons with the same brush as the idiots in Texas....and it is not fair, or right.

[mundame]

How long ago could you imagine a US militay official kissing a Koran and apologizing.,....I would have never thought....



Pretty stupid thing to do, in my opinion.

It's no wonder to me we constantly lose wars, carrying on appeasing the enemy like this.

[Abbey Marie]

The problem arises when people confuse kindness for weakness. Which I tend to think highly male-dominated and traditional cultures such as those in the ME, do?

[Gaffer]

Pretty stupid thing to do, in my opinion.

It's no wonder to me we constantly lose wars, carrying on appeasing the enemy like this.

What wars have we lost?

[mundame]

The problem arises when people confuse kindness for weakness. Which I tend to think highly male-dominated and traditional cultures such as those in the ME, do?


I'm sure you are right.

[mundame]

What wars have we lost?


Let's see ------------------------------ We lost

Korea

Vietnam

Iraq II

Afghanistan.


We won Iraq I (Desert Storm) and Serbia. Have I missed anything in modern times? I'm not going to count Grenada or Panama.

The Korean War was settled by Armistice, but I consider it a strategic defeat, as the whole situation all these decades later is seriously disadvantageous to us. Though keeping a foothold on the Korean penninsula may conceivably have some value in backing off China as the century goes forward. Or not. Can't tell yet.

[ranger]

Let's see ------------------------------ We lost

Korea

Vietnam

Iraq II

Afghanistan.


We won Iraq I (Desert Storm) and Serbia. Have I missed anything in modern times? I'm not going to count Grenada or Panama.

The Korean War was settled by Armistice, but I consider it a strategic defeat, as the whole situation all these decades later is seriously disadvantageous to us. Though keeping a foothold on the Korean penninsula may conceivably have some value in backing off China as the century goes forward. Or not. Can't tell yet.


How do you figure we lost Iraq II and Afghanistan, because Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and their ilk say so? Or is it because you know once a dem gets into the white house we'll leave and then it will DEFINITELY be a loss?

I noticed you also skipped over WWI and WWII, Spanish American War, Indian Wars, Civil War, War of 1812, and the Revolutionary War. So all told we have it like this:
Revolutionary War - Win
War of 1812 - Win
Civil War - Draw
Indian Wars - Win
Spanish American War - Win
WWI - Win
WWII - Win
Korea - Draw
Vietnam - Loss
Iraq I - Win
Iraq II - Win
Afghanistan - Win

That gives us 9 wins, 1 loss and 2 ties.

[ranger]

Can't help but notice our only loss is in a war started by the liberal left.

[Kathianne]

How do you figure we lost Iraq II and Afghanistan, because Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and their ilk say so? Or is it because you know once a dem gets into the white house we'll leave and then it will DEFINITELY be a loss?

I noticed you also skipped over WWI and WWII, Spanish American War, Indian Wars, Civil War, War of 1812, and the Revolutionary War. So all told we have it like this:
Revolutionary War - Win
War of 1812 - Win
Civil War - Draw
Indian Wars - Win
Spanish American War - Win
WWI - Win
WWII - Win
Korea - Draw
Vietnam - Loss
Iraq I - Win
Iraq II - Win
Afghanistan - Win

That gives us 9 wins, 1 loss and 2 ties.

I'd pretty much agree, except with first 'tie.' Last I heard, the former Confederacy was still part of the US, their bid to secede failed. That's a loss in my book. At the same time, it was our worst war.

[ranger]

I'd pretty much agree, except with first 'tie.' Last I heard, the former Confederacy was still part of the US, their bid to secede failed. That's a loss in my book. At the same time, it was our worst war.


I figured I would call that one a tie because there were no real winners. Plus, didn't want to have the big Confederate versus Union debate here.

[mundame]

How do you figure we lost Iraq II and Afghanistan, because Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and their ilk say so? Or is it because you know once a dem gets into the white house we'll leave and then it will DEFINITELY be a loss?

I noticed you also skipped over WWI and WWII, Spanish American War, Indian Wars, Civil War, War of 1812, and the Revolutionary War. So all told we have it like this:
Revolutionary War - Win
War of 1812 - Win
Civil War - Draw
Indian Wars - Win
Spanish American War - Win
WWI - Win
WWII - Win
Korea - Draw
Vietnam - Loss
Iraq I - Win
Iraq II - Win
Afghanistan - Win

That gives us 9 wins, 1 loss and 2 ties.


I agree with the early part of your list except for the Civil War, which "we" won, depending on who you think "we" are.

I explicitly referred to modern times, however.

No, these two wars we are in now are already lost, like Vietnam was at the same stage. We can hold our own enough not to be driven out entirely, but we can't win -------- the momentum is gone and the populace is hostile.

I don't know if the Dems will get us out anytime soon. If they don't, it will devour their administrations, same as losing these wars has devoured Bush's whole presidency. The Dems haven't gotten us out so far; buncha idiots same as the Republicans. However, once a war is lost, everyone who loses their legs and has terrible brain damage and dies is just yet more useless loss to the country and to their families.

Not that Bush cares anything about that, of course. Nor do the Dems, as far as I can see.

[Kathianne]

I figured I would call that one a tie because there were no real winners. Plus, didn't want to have the big Confederate versus Union debate here.

ah, the Civil War is debated here from time-to-time. Never bring up Sherman, unless you want the South to rise again. ;)

[ranger]

I agree with the early part of your list except for the Civil War, which "we" won, depending on who you think "we" are.

I explicitly referred to modern times, however.

No, these two wars we are in now are already lost, like Vietnam was at the same stage. We can hold our own enough not to be driven out entirely, but we can't win -------- the momentum is gone and the populace is hostile.

I don't know if the Dems will get us out anytime soon. If they don't, it will devour their administrations, same as losing these wars has devoured Bush's whole presidency. The Dems haven't gotten us out so far; buncha idiots same as the Republicans. However, once a war is lost, everyone who loses their legs and has terrible brain damage and dies is just yet more useless loss to the country and to their families.

Not that Bush cares anything about that, of course. Nor do the Dems, as far as I can see.


Are you through reading from the DNC talking points? The country is getting better, the Iraqi security forces are taking more control over things, only to the left is it a loss, because that what it has to be for them. Anything other then a loss in Iraq for the left is a major disaster for them and they can't stand it.

[ranger]

ah, the Civil War is debated here from time-to-time. Never bring up Sherman, unless you want the South to rise again. ;)


One thing I like about Sherman, he knew how to fight a war. No BS, no pussyfooting around. Sherman knew to make war miserable for the population and the people would cry for a deal. Too bad we don't have that same kind of leadership in today's wars. Would have made them come out a lot different.

It does suck though if it's your side Sherman is plowing through.

[Kathianne]

One thing I like about Sherman, he knew how to fight a war. No BS, no pussyfooting around. Sherman knew to make war miserable for the population and the people would cry for a deal. Too bad we don't have that same kind of leadership in today's wars. Would have made them come out a lot different.

It does suck though if it's your side Sherman is plowing through.

For certain. He shortened the war though, that's my opinion.

[Gaffer]

The Vietnam war ended in 1973 because Nixon bombed the north into submitting to negotiations to end the war. A peace accord was established. That's a win.

In 1975 north Vietnam attacked south Vietnam and defeated them because our democrat congress refuse to aid them with the material needed to fight. That's a loss for the democrats and south Vietnam. Not the US.

[ranger]

The Vietnam war ended in 1973 because Nixon bombed the north into submitting to negotiations to end the war. A peace accord was established. That's a win.

In 1975 north Vietnam attacked south Vietnam and defeated them because our democrat congress refuse to aid them with the material needed to fight. That's a loss for the democrats and south Vietnam. Not the US.

Well then we're 10 wins, 0 losses and 2 ties.

[jimnyc]

I've discussed this issue about the soldier and what he did to the Quran on quite a few message boards in the past week. Most liberals defended the Quran and put down the soldier at every opportunity. Some went as far as to claim he should have been brought up on charges and dismissed from the military. They saw it as a huge sign of disrespect to Muslims and all they stand for.

Funny how these are the same liberals that will defend the right for idiots to burn the American Flag as "freedom of expression".

[retiredman]

I personally do not "defend the quran".... and I only think it was a stupid thing to do.... not really illegal in any way..... it was just bad judgment.

If we want to win the hearts and minds of the ordinary people in Iraq, his actions were not helpful.

And I do defend someone's right to burn a flag. I find it insulting and abhorent and disrespectful, but certainly within an American citizen's rights, if they want to be insulting and abhorent and disrespectful.