McCain's Hypocrisy On Hamas

[NATO AIR]

Talk about dishonest...

I had thought McCain would have a better chance than Obama in November. If he wants to keep running on Bush's agenda though, he's in for a rude awakening, especially when he flat out lies like this.


Hypocrisy on Hamas
McCain Was for Talking Before He Was Against It
But given his own position on Hamas, McCain is the last politician who should be attacking Obama. Two years ago, just after Hamas won the Palestinian parliamentary elections, I interviewed McCain for the British network Sky News's "World News Tonight" program. Here is the crucial part of our exchange:

I asked: "Do you think that American diplomats should be operating the way they have in the past, working with the Palestinian government if Hamas is now in charge?"

McCain answered: "They're the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice, so . . . but it's a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not giving them that."

For some Europeans in Davos, Switzerland, where the interview took place, that's a perfectly reasonable answer. But it is an unusual if not unique response for an American politician from either party. And it is most certainly not how the newly conservative presumptive Republican nominee would reply today.


Given that exchange, the new John McCain might say that Hamas should be rooting for the old John McCain to win the presidential election. The old John McCain, it appears, was ready to do business with a Hamas-led government, while both Clinton and Obama have said that Hamas must change its policies toward Israel and terrorism before it can have diplomatic relations with the United States.

Even if McCain had not favored doing business with Hamas two years ago, he had no business smearing Barack Obama. But given his stated position then, it is either the height of hypocrisy or a case of political amnesia for McCain to inject Hamas into the American election.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/15/AR2008051503306_pf.html

[theHawk]

I don't see where the "hypocrisy" is at. When Hamas was first elected, the big question everyone was asking was whether or not they'd continue terrorism. The world gave them a chance, they blew it.

[dread]

I don't see where the "hypocrisy" is at. When Hamas was first elected, the big question everyone was asking was whether or not they'd continue terrorism. The world gave them a chance, they blew it.




I dont know why this would be a question on everyones mind.. Why would Hamas give up terrorism when it has worked so well for them?

[red states rule]

I don't see where the "hypocrisy" is at. When Hamas was first elected, the big question everyone was asking was whether or not they'd continue terrorism. The world gave them a chance, they blew it.

They blew it by blowing up women and children

How long do we have to talk to terrorists before we realize the only way to reasonl with them is to put a bullet in their head?

[theHawk]

I dont know why this would be a question on everyones mind.. Why would Hamas give up terrorism when it has worked so well for them?

Yes, no one really believed they'd give it up. But the "diplomatic" thing to do is to pretend they might.

[retiredman]

They're the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice.

[dread]

They're the government; sooner or later we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy towards Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things that they not only espouse but practice.



Just because they are the govt doesnt mean we have to deal with them in diplomatic ways. Alot of dictators were elected to their stature.

[glockmail]

Just because they are the govt doesnt mean we have to deal with them in diplomatic ways. Alot of dictators were elected to their stature. We don't deal with Cuba, and we don't deal with Hamas. Where is the inconsistency?

I suppose we could ask to "pretty please" stop terrorizing our ally, but I don't see that working.

[red states rule]

We don't deal with Cuba, and we don't deal with Hamas. Where is the inconsistency?

I suppose we could ask to "pretty please" stop terrorizing our ally, but I don't see that working.

Or sit down with them over lattes. (and ask could you pass the tufu pretty please?)

[NATO AIR]

This is the problem here though. ITs well known Israel negotiates with Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah (though not Iran yet, though we don't know for sure). They do it because they have to, especially if they want to get things done. The US has not done this, and it has limited our options while making us look like idiots to the rest of the world and undermining our case against all three beligerent parties.

OH but wait, we have. We have met with Syria & Iran in the past 7 years, but we don't publicize it and the Bush Admin likes to act like it never happened and didn't matter. It does though. SECDEF Gates would not be calling for more unofficial and official contacts with Iran if that wasn't the case.

[NATO AIR]

Further, we deal with the North Koreans, who are the world's Wal-mart for bad guys.
We dealt with the Soviets, who threatened to annihilate us with a nuclear holocaust as well as supporting terrorists and insurgents against us and our interests for decades. Ditto for the CHinese.

[dread]

This is the problem here though. ITs well known Israel negotiates with Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah (though not Iran yet, though we don't know for sure). They do it because they have to, especially if they want to get things done. The US has not done this, and it has limited our options while making us look like idiots to the rest of the world and undermining our case against all three beligerent parties.

OH but wait, we have. We have met with Syria & Iran in the past 7 years, but we don't publicize it and the Bush Admin likes to act like it never happened and didn't matter. It does though. SECDEF Gates would not be calling for more unofficial and official contacts with Iran if that wasn't the case.



Israel has negotiated because they like to appease the rest of the world. They have given away everything and what have they gotten in return?

[dread]

Further, we deal with the North Koreans, who are the world's Wal-mart for bad guys.
We dealt with the Soviets, who threatened to annihilate us with a nuclear holocaust as well as supporting terrorists and insurgents against us and our interests for decades. Ditto for the CHinese.



Disingenuous arguement...They all have nukes.

[red states rule]

Further, we deal with the North Koreans, who are the world's Wal-mart for bad guys.
We dealt with the Soviets, who threatened to annihilate us with a nuclear holocaust as well as supporting terrorists and insurgents against us and our interests for decades. Ditto for the CHinese.

Ronald Reagan brought down the SV without firing a shot - libs were ranting how he was going to start WWIII

It is about time we go back to Reagan conservatism on all the issues

[PostmodernProphet]

dread, your avatar is going to kill an epileptic.......

[glockmail]

.....

OH but wait, we have. We have met with Syria & Iran in the past 7 years, but we don't publicize it and the Bush Admin likes to act like it never happened and didn't matter. It does though. SECDEF Gates would not be calling for more unofficial and official contacts with Iran if that wasn't the case.


I'm sure we have clandestine meetings with these bad guys often. But meeting with them officially, and especially at high level, gives them credibility that we don't want them to have. We are trying to reduce terrorism, and one way to do that is to undermine its leader's credibility.

[glockmail]

dread, your avatar is going to kill an epileptic.......
I've been telling him through PMs that it was annoying to many of us. He replied that I was the only one to complain. Let the record stand that I did not contact you about it.

BTW how do like my new on? :coffee:

[Gaffer]

I ignore psycobabble. He is a drunk, a liar and adds nothing to a conversation except insults. Now I will consider changing that status providing he makes major changes. Stop drinking, stop lying and stop the the incoherent name calling and ranting about things he knows nothing about. Then I will have discussions with him.

I occasionally see what he says when people quote him. Sorta like a third party passing info along. If he wants me to think of him as relevant he has to change. Same applies to hamas.

[NATO AIR]

Israel has negotiated because they like to appease the rest of the world. They have given away everything and what have they gotten in return?

Might be a credible response if it wasn't backed up by 30 odd years of Israeli policy ranging from the right to the left. Peace w/ Syria is actually possible in the next few years, something even Netanyahu admits.

There are wide-ranging reasons for the failure of certain policies and ideals.

Given Israel enjoys peace with Egypt & Jordan to an extent it never did in the70's (including close security service and military cooperation), your assumption is baseless.

[red states rule]

Might be a credible response if it wasn't backed up by 30 odd years of Israeli policy ranging from the right to the left. Peace w/ Syria is actually possible in the next few years, something even Netanyahu admits.

There are wide-ranging reasons for the failure of certain policies and ideals.

Given Israel enjoys peace with Egypt & Jordan to an extent it never did in the70's (including close security service and military cooperation), your assumption is baseless.

Beg to differ. Israel has bent over backwards to try and work with terroists. I remeber seeing the tape of Israel draging people out of the Gaza, while being shot at by the terrorists

That is just one example of what Israel is up against

[retiredman]

Might be a credible response if it wasn't backed up by 30 odd years of Israeli policy ranging from the right to the left. Peace w/ Syria is actually possible in the next few years, something even Netanyahu admits.

There are wide-ranging reasons for the failure of certain policies and ideals.

Given Israel enjoys peace with Egypt & Jordan to an extent it never did in the70's (including close security service and military cooperation), your assumption is baseless.


Beg to differ. Israel has bent over backwards to try and work with terroists. I remeber seeing the tape of Israel draging people out of the Gaza, while being shot at by the terrorists

That is just one example of what Israel is up against

His point is that Israel HAS dealt with enemies... and their situation today is better vis a vis Egypt, Jordan, and to a lesser degree, Syria, than it was twenty years ago. To ignore the option of talking with enemies is foolhardy.

And again we are doing it right now and you are praising the efforts of those who do.

[red states rule]

His point is that Israel HAS dealt with enemies... and their situation today is better vis a vis Egypt, Jordan, and to a lesser degree, Syria, than it was twenty years ago. To ignore the option of talking with enemies is foolhardy.

And again we are doing it right now and you are praising the efforts of those who do.

So now MFM answer to terrorism is to ask them "Pretty please stop killing people, and lets hold hands"

The only thing terrroists understand is a bullet in the head

[retiredman]

So now MFM answer to terrorism is to ask them "Pretty please stop killing people, and lets hold hands"

The only thing terrroists understand is a bullet in the head

Do you think that Israel has ever said "pretty please stop killing us and lets hold hands" to any of its neighbors?

yes or no?

[red states rule]

Do you think that Israel has ever said "pretty please stop killing us and lets hold hands" to any of its neighbors?

yes or no?

They tried the liberal way of dealing with terrorists, and as many told them, it would not work

For some reason, libs like you believe saying "Pretty please" to terrorists will work - it has a long history of showing it foes not

My, for a speech that did not name names, you libs are so upset

[retiredman]

They tried the liberal way of dealing with terrorists, and as many told them, it would not work

For some reason, libs like you believe saying "Pretty please" to terrorists will work - it has a long history of showing it foes not

My, for a speech that did not name names, you libs are so upset

did Israel stop talking to its enemies?

yes or no?

[red states rule]

did Israel stop talking to its enemies?

yes or no?

While tehy tried talking they had rockets flying into their cities. While they talked and gave up land (as libs told them to do) they were shot at

Israel did not fuck around with Syria - they bombed the nuke reactors - and libs had a cow

While libs talk to the terrorists, the terrorists plan their next attack

[retiredman]

While tehy tried talking they had rockets flying into their cities. While they talked and gave up land (as libs told them to do) they were shot at

Israel did not fuck around with Syria - they bombed the nuke reactors - and libs had a cow

While libs talk to the terrorists, the terrorists plan their next attack

so you are contending that Israel does not talk to its enemies. Is that correct?

[red states rule]

so you are contending that Israel does not talk to its enemies. Is that correct?

HAving trouble reading today? To much Scotch and Obama Kool Aid last night, or this morning?

[retiredman]

HAving trouble reading today? To much Scotch and Obama Kool Aid last night, or this morning?


I can read just fine. If you claim that Israel does not talk to its enemies, how do you think they came to have peace with Egypt and Jordan, btw?

It's a simple question. answer it.

[Yurt]

oblaba now says he will not talk with hamas until they renounce their destruction of israel, among other things

[retiredman]

hey yurt...you're a smart guy...freshly minted attorney and all....can YOU answer my questions to RSR for him? He seems to be having a tough time.

[glockmail]

oblaba now says he will not talk with hamas until they renounce their destruction of israel, among other things Is he back-peddling again? What a funny guy!

[Yurt]

hey yurt...you're a smart guy...freshly minted attorney and all....can YOU answer my questions to RSR for him? He seems to be having a tough time.

so now you want me to "represent" for him....LOL

[retiredman]

so now you want me to "represent" for him....LOL

I do. you seem to be willing to step up and defend your buddies quite well. I thought you might want to do that again here.

[Yurt]

I do. you seem to be willing to step up and defend your buddies quite well. I thought you might want to do that again here.

you mock me for "representing" them which i have informed you over and over i do not, i see a post and if i want to respond i do. like i said, don't like it, leave. it is ironic that which you mock me for you now want me to do.

i'm sratching my nose, guess which finger...

[retiredman]

you mock me for "representing" them which i have informed you over and over i do not, i see a post and if i want to respond i do. like i said, don't like it, leave. it is ironic that which you mock me for you now want me to do.

i'm sratching my nose, guess which finger...

I am not mocking you counselor. I am asking you to hop on in and defend your friends when they apparently are unable to answer my questions.

[red states rule]

I am not mocking you counselor. I am asking you to hop on in and defend your friends when they apparently are unable to answer my questions.

Na, you are not mocking him - you are just showing him your "respect"

[retiredman]

Na, you are not mocking him - you are just showing him your "respect"


do you have anything to add to the conversation, or are you just content to snipe at me with stupid inane insults?

[red states rule]

do you have anything to add to the conversation, or are you just content to snipe at me with stupid inane insults?

Not stupid insults - postive facts. Your "respect" is well known in these parts

[retiredman]

Not stupid insults - postive facts. Your "respect" is well known in these parts

are you going to condone Petraeus giving guns and money to the very thugs that killed our boys?

[actsnoblemartin]

the italians and russians were killing our boys, the brits were killing our boys, should we never give them guns?


are you going to condone Petraeus giving guns and money to the very thugs that killed our boys?

[red states rule]

are you going to condone Petraeus giving guns and money to the very thugs that killed our boys?

Now we are back to changing the subject, It is nice to see so many liberal pinheads running for cover over a speech where they were not even mentioned :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

its ironic how you point out the thugs killing our boys, but then want to let the thugs off the hook, by saying ok thugs we give up, goodbye.


Now we are back to changing the subject, It is nice to see so many liberal pinheads running for cover over a speech where they were not even mentioned :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

you whine about insults, then insult rsr's medical status, EVEN recently, my mental health status, yurt's living.

what next kick puppies and steal babies lollipops?


do you have anything to add to the conversation, or are you just content to snipe at me with stupid inane insults?

[actsnoblemartin]

you add something to the conversation, a thick stench, the odor of insanity, and the rantings of a 2 year old.


do you have anything to add to the conversation, or are you just content to snipe at me with stupid inane insults?

[retiredman]

you whine about insults, then insult rsr's medical status, EVEN recently, my mental health status, yurt's living.

what next kick puppies and steal babies lollipops?

I am not whining, martin. I am asking a question. I would love to talk about the subject of this thread but nobody seems interested in doing so.

are you?

[actsnoblemartin]

If you stop making comments about rsr's cancer, and i have proof you have recently, and quit making comments about my mental health, and yurt;s profession then sure.


I am not whining, martin. I am asking a question. I would love to talk about the subject of this thread but nobody seems interested in doing so.

are you?

[retiredman]

If you stop making comments about rsr's cancer, and i have proof you have recently, and quit making comments about my mental health, and yurt;s profession then sure.


so you represent all three of you?

as I said earlier, martin.... insults are a really funny thing. Nobody remembers being the person who tossed the FIRST one, but everyone remembers being justified tossing the second.

You insult me. I insult you. You insult me. I insult you. It has gone on for weeks and weeks. Are you SURE that you didn't start it? Do you even remember? Do you even care anymore?

For example...when was the last time I started a thread like THIS:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=243373&postcount=1

but yet, you and your pathetic little posse of nancyboys always seem to concentrate on MY insulting YOU. See.... you are always justified in insulting me...aren't you?

[actsnoblemartin]

You actually have a point there. I guess i could cut you some slack.


so you represent all three of you?

as I said earlier, martin.... insults are a really funny thing. Nobody remembers being the person who tossed the FIRST one, but everyone remembers being justified tossing the second.

You insult me. I insult you. You insult me. I insult you. It has gone on for weeks and weeks. Are you SURE that you didn't start it? Do you even remember? Do you even care anymore?

For example...when was the last time I started a thread like THIS:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=243373&postcount=1

but yet, you and your pathetic little posse of nancyboys always seem to concentrate on MY insulting YOU. See.... you are always justified in insulting me...aren't you?

[retiredman]

You actually have a point there. I guess i could cut you some slack.

don't do me any fucking favors. YOu and your little posse of internet butt buddies just keep up with your barrage of insults to me and keep telling yourself that you are all perfectly justified and that it is that disgusting obscene MFM and he deserves every bit of it.

I don't WANT your slack, you stupid little moron. I don't WANT your respect and you'll never have mine. that's how it goes after a few weeks of insults...

aren't you happy now?:fu:

[actsnoblemartin]

I admit your right, and youre still angry. what do you want from me, a pound of flesh?


don't do me any fucking favors. YOu and your little posse of internet butt buddies just keep up with your barrage of insults to me and keep telling yourself that you are all perfectly justified and that it is that disgusting obscene MFM and he deserves every bit of it.

I don't WANT your slack, you stupid little moron. I don't WANT your respect and you'll never have mine. that's how it goes after a few weeks of insults...

aren't you happy now?:fu:

[retiredman]

I admit your right, and youre still angry. what do you want from me, a pound of flesh?

not one fucking thing.

keep the insults coming.

and so will I.

the only difference will be: mine will be more biting and more clever..because I am more clever.

[actsnoblemartin]

what happened to forgiveness? :dance:


don't do me any fucking favors.


I wasn't

YOu and your little posse of internet butt buddies just keep up with your barrage of insults to me and keep telling yourself that you are all perfectly justified

but thats just it, im not responsible for them, only myself. and secondly I just offered to quit fighting you, and you smack me in the face :laugh2:

and that it is that disgusting obscene MFM and he deserves every bit of it.
I don't WANT your slack, you stupid little moron.

I guess you dont want a truce, :laugh2:

I don't WANT your respect and you'll never have mine. that's how it goes after a few weeks of insults...

aren't you happy now?:fu:

[actsnoblemartin]

you dont want to solve the problem, you just want to complain about the problem and continue it.

I offered to solve it, i would of even tried to get yurt and rsr to stop, but hey, if you still wanna fight, its fine with me. just shows you werent being honest when you asked me, and probably others to stop insulting you


not one fucking thing.

keep the insults coming.

and so will I.

the only difference will be: mine will be more biting and more clever..because I am more clever.

[actsnoblemartin]

but your not really interested in discussing the thread.

I offered you an olive branch, i admitted i wasnt justified, i.e. I was wrong, and instead of accepting my apology, which you asked others to accept yours, you spit in my face

I dont know what you want from me/others :coffee:


I am not whining, martin. I am asking a question. I would love to talk about the subject of this thread but nobody seems interested in doing so.

are you?

[retiredman]

you dont want to solve the problem, you just want to complain about the problem and continue it.

I offered to solve it, i would of even tried to get yurt and rsr to stop, but hey, if you still wanna fight, its fine with me. just shows you werent being honest when you asked me, and probably others to stop insulting you


I am not complaining at all. I only want to talk about issues and I will start out every day trying to talk about issues...and as soon as you or your moronic posse of butt buddies insult me, I'll insult you back...and do so better than you are capable of doing....which only drives you to do stupid shit like this:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=243373&postcount=1

and when you do that....I win.

[actsnoblemartin]

the bottom line is, do you want truce with ME or not.

its a very simple question


I am not complaining at all. I only want to talk about issues and I will start out every day trying to talk about issues...and as soon as you or your moronic posse of butt buddies insult me, I'll insult you back...and do so better than you are capable of doing....which only drives you to do stupid shit like this:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=243373&postcount=1

and when you do that....I win.

[retiredman]

the bottom line is, do you want truce with ME or not.

its a very simple question

without a simple answer.

how many times have YOU started insulting me because of something I said to someone else?

a "truce" with you is meaningless because you will always come to the defense of your posse of losers.

[actsnoblemartin]

then let me be clear, if you accept a truce with me, i will stay out of it, as long as you dont insult me.

now are you interested or not?


without a simple answer.

how many times have YOU started insulting me because of something I said to someone else?

a "truce" with you is meaningless because you will always come to the defense of your posse of losers.

[retiredman]

then let me be clear, if you accept a truce with me, i will stay out of it, as long as you dont insult me.

now are you interested or not?

I don't believe you. not for a moment. I toss one back at your butt buddy RSR and you'll be right back in the game...guaranteed.

[actsnoblemartin]

you can believe whatever you want, if you accept my truce, my first pm is to rsr, telling him, im staying out of your fights


I don't believe you. not for a moment. I toss one back at your butt buddy RSR and you'll be right back in the game...guaranteed.

[Gaffer]

Get that exchange went well. Kinda reminds me of Israel (Martin) trying to make peace with the pals (mfm). Sure you can have peace, when your all dead.

Israel got peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt through third party intervention. Not through talks with countries directly. That came later. Also Egypt and Jordan were sovereign countries, not terrorist organizations. The pals are not a sovereign country and they are made up of predominately terrorists.

mfm has inadvertently shown how dealing with terrorists works. He whines and cries and when you start to feel sorry for him and offer to stop the fighting he strikes like a viper.

[actsnoblemartin]

im offering you a golden opportunity, you accept my truce. I wont even laugh at rsr's jokes

[retiredman]

Get that exchange went well. Kinda reminds me of Israel (Martin) trying to make peace with the pals (mfm). Sure you can have peace, when your all dead.

Israel got peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt through third party intervention. Not through talks with countries directly. That came later. Also Egypt and Jordan were sovereign countries, not terrorist organizations. The pals are not a sovereign country and they are made up of predominately terrorists.

mfm has inadvertently shown how dealing with terrorists works. He whines and cries and when you start to feel sorry for him and offer to stop the fighting he strikes like a viper.


yeah... begin and sadat never spoke to one another at camp david.:laugh2:

and the palestinians are NOT "predominately terrorists". that is absolutely incorrect.

and we have spoken to -and armed and paid - the very terrorists who killed our troops in Iraq....but that's OK, because a republican administration is doing it...right?

[retiredman]

im offering you a golden opportunity, you accept my truce. I wont even laugh at rsr's jokes

martin....knock knock.... anybody in there?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

[Yurt]

at least we can be clear on mfm's character, if you can even call it that...i think he's just sore because his buddy obama contradicted his stance and made him look foolish

[Yurt]

yeah... begin and sadat never spoke to one another at camp david.:laugh2:

and the palestinians are NOT "predominately terrorists". that is absolutely incorrect.

and we have spoken to -and armed and paid - the very terrorists who killed our troops in Iraq....but that's OK, because a republican administration is doing it...right?

hamas was predominately voted in :poke:

[actsnoblemartin]

I gave you a chance, thats all i can do.


martin....knock knock.... anybody in there?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

[actsnoblemartin]

I love it, wanna quit fighting... sure

bap, you get hit in the back of the head the moment you turn your back thinking the fight was over, and peace was accepted


at least we can be clear on mfm's character, if you can even call it that...i think he's just sore because his buddy obama contradicted his stance and made him look foolish

[retiredman]

at least we can be clear on mfm's character, if you can even call it that...i think he's just sore because his buddy obama contradicted his stance and made him look foolish


counselor. I am not sore. As I have said all along...Obama was not my first nor second nor even third choice for the democratic nomination. He is not my buddy...he is merely my preferred choice of the remaining two candidates. I don't agree with him on every issue...I didn't agree with ANY of my party's candidates on every issue.

If I appear foolish to you, that really is of no real concern to me. As I have said all along. I prefer to talk about ideas and issues. and as I told martin earlier...after weeks of insults, it is really difficult to know who started it. No one remembers tossing the first one, yet everyone feels totally justified in having thrown the second.

You claim to have decided to "give me the benefit of the doubt" upon my return from mexico, but I was certainly unaware of that...from myt perspective, we were on the same footing we were when I left.... I admitted being the first one to "insult" upon my return, but I certainly did not view that as violating some sacred truce, but merely a natural continuation of our previous enmity...and I even apologized for it.

Now continue to tell yourself what a great attorney you are and what I liar I am when I say that I was a naval officer or that I have preached a few sermons from time to time.... that's not insulting to me in the least!:laugh2:

[NATO AIR]

Get that exchange went well. Kinda reminds me of Israel (Martin) trying to make peace with the pals (mfm). Sure you can have peace, when your all dead.

Israel got peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt through third party intervention. Not through talks with countries directly. That came later. Also Egypt and Jordan were sovereign countries, not terrorist organizations. The pals are not a sovereign country and they are made up of predominately terrorists.

mfm has inadvertently shown how dealing with terrorists works. He whines and cries and when you start to feel sorry for him and offer to stop the fighting he strikes like a viper.

Israel had been talking with the Egyptians and Syrians for years, off and on. Sadat's war in '73 was more about forcing circumstances where Israel would have to negotiate with him (and he'd have a bit of leverage) than anything else.

The Israelis are by and large the most practical civilization on the planet. They don't bother with idiotic ideology like Bush or Obama.

Their only failing with it was after '67, when everyone underestimated the power and influence of the ultra-Orthodox and their seizure of land (which became intractable settlements, as Sharon realized later in life and thus tried to get rid of, as in Gaza).

Plus, the Israelis have the nuclear luxury. They know that if it ever got really serious with Iran or someone else in the MENA, they'll blow them to Kingdom Come. The "wackos" in Iran know that. People who read too much bullshit on the internet and don't understand Iranian politics for what it is (an odd mixture of Sovietology and Byzantine court intrigue with more competing factions than you can shake a fist at) couldn't begin to understand what the Israelis do about the Iranians.

Iran is a country on the brink... running out of oil, running out of patience (the people, not the government) and running out of excuses. There are enough factions ascendant in Iranian politics to make a deal with the Americans feasible. All it takes is wise diplomacy (the kind we used to specialize in during the Nixon & Reagan/Bush years) and firm commitment.

I doubt Obama can pull that off... but I'd be damned if he and McCain (at least years ago) don't see the possibilities. We don't have those kinds of skilled leaders on the horizon anyway, unless you count Petreaus.

[actsnoblemartin]

mcdonalds customer (maineman): im mad

manager: why

mcdonalds customer (mfm): their are pickles on my burger, i ordered NO pickles

manager: im terribly sorry sir let me fix that

manager (comes back 3 minutes later) here you go sir, a free coupon for a big mac, and here is your big mac without pickles

a crash to the floor

Mcdonalds customer (mfm): I just wanted to complain!


at least we can be clear on mfm's character, if you can even call it that...i think he's just sore because his buddy obama contradicted his stance and made him look foolish

[retiredman]

I gave you a chance, thats all i can do.


no. that's not all you can do. you can quit insulting me and quit sticking up for your friends and quit neg repping me and quit starting inane threads about me.... you could do that all on your own.... because it is the right thing to do.

[Yurt]

manfrommaine;246178]counselor. I am not sore. As I have said all along...Obama was not my first nor second nor even third choice for the democratic nomination. He is not my buddy...he is merely my preferred choice of the remaining two candidates. I don't agree with him on every issue...I didn't agree with ANY of my party's candidates on every issue.

this is the first time i have ever heard you disagree with him, ever. you have defended him lock stock n barrel over everything that has come his way. it is hard for me to trust you, however, not every issue has been presented on the board....


If I appear foolish to you, that really is of no real concern to me. As I have said all along. I prefer to talk about ideas and issues. and as I told martin earlier...after weeks of insults, it is really difficult to know who started it. No one remembers tossing the first one, yet everyone feels totally justified in having thrown the second.

obviously it is, that is why you respond in depth. you prefer insults to ideas and issues, that is clear. you wouldn't give martin the time of day when you have asked me to give you likewise. it is beyond who started what, to focus on such nuance is beneath you, if that is possible. if you were a true man, you would not type in a whiny tone about oh, he insulted me, oh, so i did back, oh, and, and oh, and....man up, you insult with the best and have started as much as i have. see, i am man enough to admit that, you are not.


You claim to have decided to "give me the benefit of the doubt" upon my return from mexico, but I was certainly unaware of that...from myt perspective, we were on the same footing we were when I left.... I admitted being the first one to "insult" upon my return, but I certainly did not view that as violating some sacred truce, but merely a natural continuation of our previous enmity...and I even apologized for it.

you did and you also continued the insults. i believe it was me who started the last round after your second "apology," but understand, i never viewed your apologies anything other than mere sarcasm at best and dishonesty at worst. you insulted me in the same post you apologized. i do not consider that an apology and no rational person does.


Now continue to tell yourself what a great attorney you are and what I liar I am when I say that I was a naval officer or that I have preached a few sermons from time to time.... that's not insulting to me in the least!:laugh2:

you see, it doesn't bother me when you crack at my legal ability, i almost always ignore it because i know it is not true. but when you claim i am being unethical, thus violating the law, that is different. but your feeble brain can't tell the difference.

[Yurt]

no. that's not all you can do. you can quit insulting me and quit sticking up for your friends and quit neg repping me and quit starting inane threads about me.... you could do that all on your own.... because it is the right thing to do.

hypocrite...if it is the right thing for him, why not you o' man o' "god"

[retiredman]

hypocrite...if it is the right thing for him, why not you o' man o' "god"


counselor...it IS the right thing for me to do. I never attack anyone because of their statements to others.... and I really should cease and desist insulting you and RSR regardless of how you treat me. I only pointed out that martin was incorrect when he said that offering a truce to me was "all he could do". there is nothing hypocritical in that.

[Kathianne]

counselor...it IS the right thing for me to do. I never attack anyone because of their statements to others.... and I really should cease and desist insulting you and RSR regardless of how you treat me. I only pointed out that martin was incorrect when he said that offering a truce to me was "all he could do". there is nothing hypocritical in that.

Yes, you should. As for Martin, may not be hypocritical, but certainly is beneath anyone that hasn't his problems. Seriously.

[Yurt]

counselor...it IS the right thing for me to do. I never attack anyone because of their statements to others.... and I really should cease and desist insulting you and RSR regardless of how you treat me. I only pointed out that martin was incorrect when he said that offering a truce to me was "all he could do". there is nothing hypocritical in that.

don't be stupid, oh wait.... you know very well that his truce was "all he could do," in that, his truce would offer you no more insults, and he would talk to rsr and myself (maybe others???) to try and get us to stop insulting you. you're such a prick, martin has in fact asked me to stop our insulting bantering, i told him no way i can do that because you can't be trusted. thats a fact. you had a chance with him and you blew it because you think you are better than him. you're worthless. you know it is the right thing for you to do, yet you do not abide by that philosophy. that is a lost, desperate, and bitter soul. may you find yourself one day.

[actsnoblemartin]

edited

[actsnoblemartin]

edited

[Yurt]

no it is not cute. martin......

[retiredman]

don't be stupid, oh wait.... you know very well that his truce was "all he could do," in that, his truce would offer you no more insults, and he would talk to rsr and myself (maybe others???) to try and get us to stop insulting you. you're such a prick, martin has in fact asked me to stop our insulting bantering, i told him no way i can do that because you can't be trusted. thats a fact. you had a chance with him and you blew it because you think you are better than him. you're worthless. you know it is the right thing for you to do, yet you do not abide by that philosophy. that is a lost, desperate, and bitter soul. may you find yourself one day.


that is fine, counselor. I have had truces with folks before...and I am sure that all of them are absolutely certain that I was the one the broke that truce. I am not going to insult you... and that won't stop you from insulting me...but I'll do what I can for as long as I can. care to talk about issues, or are you completely about insults these days?

[Yurt]

that is fine, counselor. I have had truces with folks before...and I am sure that all of them are absolutely certain that I was the one the broke that truce. I am not going to insult you... and that won't stop you from insulting me...but I'll do what I can for as long as I can. care to talk about issues, or are you completely about insults these days?

:lol:

[glockmail]

:lol:
Ask him to say "pretty please".