'Jane Doe Rape Kits' Going Nationwide

[dread]

ELKTON, Md. — Starting next year across the country, rape victims too afraid or too ashamed to go to police can undergo an emergency-room forensic rape exam, and the evidence gathered will be kept on file in a sealed envelope in case they decide to press charges.

The new federal requirement that states pay for "Jane Doe rape kits" is aimed at removing one of the biggest obstacles to prosecuting rape cases: Some women are so traumatized they don't come forward until it is too late to collect hair, semen or other samples.

"Sometimes the issue of actually having to make a report to police can be a barrier to victims, and this will allow that barrier to cease, to allow the victim to think about it before deciding whether to talk to police," said Carey Goryl, executive director of the International Association of Forensic Nurses.

The practice is already followed at some health clinics, colleges and hospitals around the country and by the state of Massachusetts. But many other jurisdictions refuse to cover the estimated $800 cost of a forensic rape exam unless the victim files a police report.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355485,00.html



I have a huge problem with this. What about chain of custody issues? And how does one know that this wasnt a girlfriend pissed off at her boyfriend and is holding onto this until he does something to piss her off again?

[diuretic]

Yep, I can see huge problems - I know it wouldn't get a look in in my jurisdiction. Maybe there's a need to look at reporting circumstances and the follow-up forensic procedures. For the record I fully understand a victim's reluctance to report, but that's another issue.

[dread]

Another thing that gripes me is that the cost is being paid by taxpayers for something that may be bogus or never result in a conviction.

[glockmail]

....
I have a huge problem with this. What about chain of custody issues? And how does one know that this wasnt a girlfriend pissed off at her boyfriend and is holding onto this until he does something to piss her off again?

COC is not an issue. Its the same kit in use now, and done by the same hospital personnel, and kept as evidence in the same way. The difference is that there’s only a number on the kit after its been sealed, instead of a name. It appears that the woman will be given a certificate with that number to tie it back to her if she reports the incident to the police.

With regards to the cost, the government has an obligation to provide police services to its citizens, and prosecutorial services when those services fail.

I think it’s a great idea and why didn’t someone think of this before?

[DragonStryk72]

Another thing that gripes me is that the cost is being paid by taxpayers for something that may be bogus or never result in a conviction.

Um, usually in the case of that kind of rape, it's usually fairly obvious, and if they can get those samples, then the fact is, you would see more prosecutions, with better evidence, meaning that more convictions will follow.

[dread]

COC is not an issue. Its the same kit in use now, and done by the same hospital personnel, and kept as evidence in the same way. The difference is that there’s only a number on the kit after its been sealed, instead of a name. It appears that the woman will be given a certificate with that number to tie it back to her if she reports the incident to the police.

With regards to the cost, the government has an obligation to provide police services to its citizens, and prosecutorial services when those services fail.

I think it’s a great idea and why didn’t someone think of this before?

Even if it is the same kit, it doesn't make a difference to the chain of custody. How is the hospital going to verify that the same person who came in to do the kit is the same one claiming the rape? Certificates can be passed around from person to person.

Other problems are going to come from defense attorneys. Their first question is going to be, "If it was such a bad experience, why did you wait X amount of time before reporting it? Were you trying to blackmail my client for money and when he said no, you filed charges?"

What's to stop a woman from having sex with a guy, doing the kit, and then using it later against the man when the relationship goes bad? Having the police involved from the beginning ensures that the suspect's rights are protected and the truely guilty go to jail.

[dread]

Um, usually in the case of that kind of rape, it's usually fairly obvious, and if they can get those samples, then the fact is, you would see more prosecutions, with better evidence, meaning that more convictions will follow.


How about the victim goes to an advocacy center where the medical exam, interview and other stuff is done right on site and in less then 4 hours (usually). This allows the police to be moving forward, the victim to feel secure and not have numerous interviews with different people, and if the suspect is known, he can usually be in jail before the victim is completely done at the center. This way the right guy goes to jail and the victim gets treated with respect and doesn't have to answer questions from the ER admitting person, the nurse at the ER, the Doc at the ER and then the cops.

[actsnoblemartin]

How about trying to use the prevention method.

Now you CANT prevent all rapes.

But, should women dress slutty?

should they put themselves in dangerous situstions

am i saying rape is ok no, but should i walk down a deserted ally with 100's of dollars.


ELKTON, Md. — Starting next year across the country, rape victims too afraid or too ashamed to go to police can undergo an emergency-room forensic rape exam, and the evidence gathered will be kept on file in a sealed envelope in case they decide to press charges.

The new federal requirement that states pay for "Jane Doe rape kits" is aimed at removing one of the biggest obstacles to prosecuting rape cases: Some women are so traumatized they don't come forward until it is too late to collect hair, semen or other samples.

"Sometimes the issue of actually having to make a report to police can be a barrier to victims, and this will allow that barrier to cease, to allow the victim to think about it before deciding whether to talk to police," said Carey Goryl, executive director of the International Association of Forensic Nurses.

The practice is already followed at some health clinics, colleges and hospitals around the country and by the state of Massachusetts. But many other jurisdictions refuse to cover the estimated $800 cost of a forensic rape exam unless the victim files a police report.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355485,00.html



I have a huge problem with this. What about chain of custody issues? And how does one know that this wasnt a girlfriend pissed off at her boyfriend and is holding onto this until he does something to piss her off again?

[diuretic]

How about the victim goes to an advocacy center where the medical exam, interview and other stuff is done right on site and in less then 4 hours (usually). This allows the police to be moving forward, the victim to feel secure and not have numerous interviews with different people, and if the suspect is known, he can usually be in jail before the victim is completely done at the center. This way the right guy goes to jail and the victim gets treated with respect and doesn't have to answer questions from the ER admitting person, the nurse at the ER, the Doc at the ER and then the cops.

That's a MUCH better idea. Like this?

http://www.wch.sa.gov.au/services/az/other/yarrowplace/files/

[diuretic]

How about trying to use the prevention method.

Now you CANT prevent all rapes.

But, should women dress slutty?

should they put themselves in dangerous situstions

am i saying rape is ok no, but should i walk down a deserted ally with 100's of dollars.

Martin, you're being silly. Think about it for a minute.

Young men get killed and injured in brawls inside and outside (vicinity) of nightclubs (where I live). So, should young men stop going to nightclubs?

[glockmail]

[1]Even if it is the same kit, it doesn't make a difference to the chain of custody. How is the hospital going to verify that the same person who came in to do the kit is the same one claiming the rape? Certificates can be passed around from person to person.

[2]Other problems are going to come from defense attorneys. Their first question is going to be, "If it was such a bad experience, why did you wait X amount of time before reporting it? Were you trying to blackmail my client for money and when he said no, you filed charges?"

[3]What's to stop a woman from having sex with a guy, doing the kit, and then using it later against the man when the relationship goes bad? Having the police involved from the beginning ensures that the suspect's rights are protected and the truely guilty go to jail.
1. The kit contains evidence of the victim’s identity along with the attacker.
2. That issue has nothing to do with the kit.
3. She’d be setting herself up for an easy prosecution with all the evidence of their normal relationship after the kit was processed.

[dread]

1. The kit contains evidence of the victim’s identity along with the attacker.

Yes, but there is still a potential for identity issues. Did the hospital take a valid identification when the kit was done, etc that are not issues when dealing with the police.



2. That issue has nothing to do with the kit.

The whole point of the kit is for a successful prosecution. By allowing them to wait, days, weeks, or years before they come forward you have opened the door to these questions.



3. She’d be setting herself up for an easy prosecution with all the evidence of their normal relationship after the kit was processed.

The truth would come out, sooner or later, but in the meantime, the guy is being accused of rape, drug through a prosecution, smeared in the media, etc. Like the Duke Rape Case, big headlines on the arrest of the three "suspects" no headlines on the dropping of charges against the same "suspects." The truth came out, but not before it totally screwed up their lives.

[glockmail]

[1]Yes, but there is still a potential for identity issues. Did the hospital take a valid identification when the kit was done, etc that are not issues when dealing with the police.

[2]The whole point of the kit is for a successful prosecution. By allowing them to wait, days, weeks, or years before they come forward you have opened the door to these questions.

[3]The truth would come out, sooner or later, but in the meantime, the guy is being accused of rape, drug through a prosecution, smeared in the media, etc. Like the Duke Rape Case, big headlines on the arrest of the three "suspects" no headlines on the dropping of charges against the same "suspects." The truth came out, but not before it totally screwed up their lives.
1. I think doctors or nurses are just as reliable witnesses to identify someone. After all, they would be the ones who did the actual physical examination.
2. According to the article you posted the kits are disposed of after 90 days. Its not unusual for a victim to wait that long before coming forward. In those cases, these kits provide evidence which would be crucial to the prosecution.
3. In this case the rape kit would protect the falsely accused, since evidence of violence, forced entry, and defensive maneuvers would all be collected.

[dread]

How about trying to use the prevention method.

Now you CANT prevent all rapes.

But, should women dress slutty?

should they put themselves in dangerous situstions

am i saying rape is ok no, but should i walk down a deserted ally with 100's of dollars.




First of all if you WERE to walk down a deserted ally with all that money you would be safe. Because there is NO ONE there.


Secondly...I dont care if a female walks around buck naked around town. It doesnt give a man the right to stick his dick in her.

The reality is rape IS NOT about sex but about violence perputrated onto someone who is preceived as weaker.

[dread]

That's a MUCH better idea. Like this?

http://www.wch.sa.gov.au/services/az/other/yarrowplace/files/



Centers like that are really starting to take off here in the US.

[dread]

1. I think doctors or nurses are just as reliable witnesses to identify someone. After all, they would be the ones who did the actual physical examination. .

Except for the fact that it isn't the doctor or the nurse taking the identification of the person, it's the minimum wage flunky at the ER door that does the identification work. And how many people does that person see in one day?




2. According to the article you posted the kits are disposed of after 90 days. Its not unusual for a victim to wait that long before coming forward. In those cases, these kits provide evidence which would be crucial to the prosecution.


Actually it is unusual for a rape victim to wait.



3. In this case the rape kit would protect the falsely accused, since evidence of violence, forced entry, and defensive maneuvers would all be collected.

Is the doctor or nurse trained in evidence collection? How much training have they had? When was the last training they had? Were any photos taken and by whom? Was that person trained on the use of the camera? Where were the photos stored? Are they digital photos? If they were, has anyone tampered with them?

Those questions and more would have to be answered, making this type of case more problematic.

Finally, you say just have the doctor or nurse come in and testify. Most doctors and nurses don't like to come in and testify. They try and avoid it like the plague. They don't get paid extra for it and they hate to have to come down to the courthouse and sit for hours until it's their turn to testify. As a result, if they can avoid it, they do.

[glockmail]

Except for the fact that it isn't the doctor or the nurse taking the identification of the person, it's the minimum wage flunky at the ER door that does the identification work. And how many people does that person see in one day?

Actually it is unusual for a rape victim to wait.

Is the doctor or nurse trained in evidence collection? How much training have they had? When was the last training they had? Were any photos taken and by whom? Was that person trained on the use of the camera? Where were the photos stored? Are they digital photos? If they were, has anyone tampered with them?

Those questions and more would have to be answered, making this type of case more problematic.

Finally, you say just have the doctor or nurse come in and testify. Most doctors and nurses don't like to come in and testify. They try and avoid it like the plague. They don't get paid extra for it and they hate to have to come down to the courthouse and sit for hours until it's their turn to testify. As a result, if they can avoid it, they do.

1. That “minimum wage flunky” would be a graduate of medical school doing his three to seven year internship. At that point they would be under the direct supervision of the attending physician. Both are very credible witnesses.
2. According to your linked article, it is common.
3. Again, the kits and collection methods are identical to the current kits, the only difference is that it is stored as police evidence as a possible pending case.
4. Defense attorneys toss out all kinds of questions. Again, having the rape kit evidence available would be invaluable to the prosecuting attorney.
5. The reason why there are rape kits is to standardize the process and make it easy for the doctor to testify. Being called as an expert witness is in fact considered prestigious, and can also be lucrative. But yet again, the “Jane Doe” kits and procedures are identical to the regular kits.

[dread]

That “minimum wage flunky” would be a graduate of medical school doing his three to seven year internship. At that point they would be under the direct supervision of the attending physician. Both are very credible witnesses.
2. According to your linked article, it is common.
3. Again, the kits and collection methods are identical to the current kits, the only difference is that it is stored as police evidence as a possible pending case.
4. Defense attorneys toss out all kinds of questions. Again, having the rape kit evidence available would be invaluable to the prosecuting attorney.
5. The reason why there are rape kits is to standardize the process and make it easy for the doctor to testify. Being called as an expert witness is in fact considered prestigious, and can also be lucrative. But yet again, the “Jane Doe” kits and procedures are identical to the regular kits.


What part of "doctors DONT want to testify" DONT you get? They dont get paid to go to court. Hence the reason for advocacy centers because THEN you have a doctor on call who is WILLING to testify.


And I hate to break it to you but IT IS the person with the lowest amount of education that collects samples and stores them.


Another point is you havent addressed the problem of a person is innocent UNTIL proven guilty. With your method of doing things I guess YOU personally would have no problem with your girlfriend or wife doing the rape kit after she got pissed at you and holding it over your head as leverage.

[glockmail]

What part of "doctors DONT want to testify" DONT you get? They dont get paid to go to court. Hence the reason for advocacy centers because THEN you have a doctor on call who is WILLING to testify.

And I hate to break it to you but IT IS the person with the lowest amount of education that collects samples and stores them.

Another point is you havent addressed the problem of a person is innocent UNTIL proven guilty. With your method of doing things I guess YOU personally would have no problem with your girlfriend or wife doing the rape kit after she got pissed at you and holding it over your head as leverage.
1. I understand what you’ve been saying completely. It’s just not true. In my profession I have been called several times as an expert witness. Each time I’ve been compensated nicely and the experience has been interesting and rewarding. People get into the health profession to help people, and it does not make sense that these same people would not want to be witnesses to help out the victim of a crime.
2. I would ask you to prove this but again (for the third time) it’s a moot point, since the kits and procedure are identical to the regular kits.
3. The prosecution of a rape case with either type of kit is the same.

[ranger]

1. I understand what you’ve been saying completely. It’s just not true. In my profession I have been called several times as an expert witness. Each time I’ve been compensated nicely and the experience has been interesting and rewarding. People get into the health profession to help people, and it does not make sense that these same people would not want to be witnesses to help out the victim of a crime.

And in my profession, I've had doctors ditch subpoenas, avoid court, and piss and moan about the whole situation. You must be an anomaly



2. I would ask you to prove this but again (for the third time) it’s a moot point, since the kits and procedure are identical to the regular kits.

It's not the same because in the regular kits, it's a specially trained nurse who collects the evidence. If anyone can go to the ER and have it put in storage, is the same, specially trained nurse going to do the collection. Plus you run into identity problems.



3. The prosecution of a rape case with either type of kit is the same.

No it is not. The more questions you allow the defense to ask and bring up, the better chance you have for reasonable doubt. That's why advocacy centers have become the major force in sex assault cases now. It allows the victim to only have to tell the story one time, get the medical exam, and go instead of having to wait in an emergency room, be interviewed by the admitting person, the nurse and then the doctor, then have the exam done. Then they have to be interviewed again when they contact the police because the police have to get the story from the victim (not the hospital staff - part of the rules of evidence).

[mundame]

COC is not an issue. Its the same kit in use now, and done by the same hospital personnel, and kept as evidence in the same way. The difference is that there’s only a number on the kit after its been sealed, instead of a name. It appears that the woman will be given a certificate with that number to tie it back to her if she reports the incident to the police.

With regards to the cost, the government has an obligation to provide police services to its citizens, and prosecutorial services when those services fail.

I think it’s a great idea and why didn’t someone think of this before?


I appreciate your pro-woman attitude, Glockmail.

[diuretic]

Centers like that are really starting to take off here in the US.

Excellent. They're really good.

[Kathianne]

And in my profession, I've had doctors ditch subpoenas, avoid court, and piss and moan about the whole situation. You must be an anomaly



....

I needed to have my children's psychiatrist testify in court. He did, twice. Including the time waiting, and the time he spent writing up the documentation for the court, I'd guess he spent at least 10 hours. He never charged for any of the time.

When the court ordered a psych exam for the ex, the court paid for it.

[glockmail]

And in my profession, I've had doctors ditch subpoenas, avoid court, and piss and moan about the whole situation. You must be an anomaly

It's not the same because in the regular kits, it's a specially trained nurse who collects the evidence. If anyone can go to the ER and have it put in storage, is the same, specially trained nurse going to do the collection. Plus you run into identity problems.

No it is not. The more questions you allow the defense to ask and bring up, the better chance you have for reasonable doubt. That's why advocacy centers have become the major force in sex assault cases now. It allows the victim to only have to tell the story one time, get the medical exam, and go instead of having to wait in an emergency room, be interviewed by the admitting person, the nurse and then the doctor, then have the exam done. Then they have to be interviewed again when they contact the police because the police have to get the story from the victim (not the hospital staff - part of the rules of evidence).

1. Well I guess you work with a bunch of dirt bags then.
2. The kits and procedures are the same.
3. Yes it is.

[glockmail]

I appreciate your pro-woman attitude, Glockmail.
No problem, "Sweetie". http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=245087&postcount=20

[mundame]

No problem, "Sweetie". http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=245087&postcount=20



Oooooooo. http://macg.net/emoticons/smilebow.gif