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darin
03-01-2007, 01:48 PM
"...everyone should be knowledgeable of the facts and the truth..." Truth. That's interesting. I'm of the opinion the truth is driven by the interpretation of the facts. The problem is in how one interprets the facts, I suppose.

How would you answer this:


So, is the truth the same as an opinion or conclusion? Those are essentially what is derived from facts. I was of the belief that facts are synonymous with the truth. But maybe I'm wrong. Let's look at this example: when the CIA overthrew Iran's democratically elected President Mossadeq in 1953 in a deal with British Petroleum--some might say the truth is: it was necessary to stop communism (Mossadeq was making deals with the USSR because BP and Am. Oil were boycotting their oil exports); another might say the truth is: American/Anglos were trying to install a puppet Shah to control Iran's oil reserves; or a combination of the two: we did it to control Iran so we could stem a communist threat and reap the oil benefits. Now I'm confused. The facts are: we did it. The reasons are pretty clear. Where does the truth become subjective here?

Here was my answer:


I don't have anything other than the info you gave me; I'm not educated on the specific topic. What you've done is take a 'general' concept I described, and tried to nail me down to a specific case.


Anyone able to help me get-smart?
avatar4321
03-01-2007, 02:00 PM
The truth is things as they are, things as they were, and things as they will be.

I think the truth in the matter is there could have been numerous factors that caused us to do it. Heck it might have just been paranoia... I am not privy to all the details.

Regardless what the reasons were and whether it was right or wrong, I still think Carter's lack of action which lead to the overthrow of the Shah for another more oppressive regime was wrong.
CSM
03-01-2007, 02:02 PM
How would you answer this:



Here was my answer:


Anyone able to help me get-smart?

One can reach the wrong conclusion despite truthful facts. One can also take inappropriate actions based on a conclusion reached from truth/fact. Incedentally, the opposite is also true.
5stringJeff
03-01-2007, 02:03 PM
Truth is that which corresponds to reality. For example, it is true to say that "2+2=4," because in reality, two plus two does equal four. It is true to say that the earth revolves around the sun, because in reality, it does. It is not necessarily true to say, "Rap music sucks." This is an opinion based on the facts (truth) about rap music: it typically features spoken lyrics over a drum machine and small samples of other people's music. In other words, we use truthful statements to draw conclusions, which may or may not be "truth" in and of themselves.
The ClayTaurus
03-01-2007, 02:42 PM
Truth is that which corresponds to reality. For example, it is true to say that "2+2=4," because in reality, two plus two does equal four. It is true to say that the earth revolves around the sun, because in reality, it does. It is not necessarily true to say, "Rap music sucks." This is an opinion based on the facts (truth) about rap music: it typically features spoken lyrics over a drum machine and small samples of other people's music. In other words, we use truthful statements to draw conclusions, which may or may not be "truth" in and of themselves.Conclusions can also be based on an incomplete set of truths. Using your rap example, while your three statements are truthful, there is no mention of rhyme patterns, use of metaphors/similes, story telling, etc. There should probably be some distinction between the WHOLE truth and parts of the truth.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 02:53 PM
Truth is simply a matter of ones belief. Whether factual or not, understood by others or not.

Jeff said 2+2=4, I think we can all agree with that, but 1+1=3 is a truth for me as well, but probably not for most people.
The ClayTaurus
03-01-2007, 03:02 PM
Truth is simply a matter of ones belief. Whether factual or not, understood by others or not.

Jeff said 2+2=4, I think we can all agree with that, but 1+1=3 is a truth for me as well, but probably not for most people.Probably best to define personal truth as opposed to absolute truth.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 03:07 PM
Probably best to define personal truth as opposed to absolute truth.

The truth is the question didn't seperate the two, did it. :poke:

But yeah yer right. I guess. But on the other hand wrong. Absolute is different for each depending on their belief.
darin
03-01-2007, 03:09 PM
The truth is the question didn't seperate the two, did it. :poke:

But yeah yer right. I guess. But on the other hand wrong. Absolute is different for each depending on their belief.

Whether somebody believes in absolute truth doesn't change the fact the truth IS absolute. For instance:

It's absolutely true that Jeff is taller than me. Mr. P may not believe Jeff is taller; but his disbelief doesn't change the fact Jeff is taller. :)
5stringJeff
03-01-2007, 03:16 PM
Darin hit the nail on the head. Absolute truth is always true for all observers at all times. One can't say 1+1=3 is true for them but not for someone else.
5stringJeff
03-01-2007, 03:17 PM
Conclusions can also be based on an incomplete set of truths. Using your rap example, while your three statements are truthful, there is no mention of rhyme patterns, use of metaphors/similes, story telling, etc. There should probably be some distinction between the WHOLE truth and parts of the truth.

Good call. One can easily draw a faulty conclusion from partial truths, whereas they would draw a different conclusions from the whole truth.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 03:20 PM
Darin hit the nail on the head. Absolute truth is always true for all observers at all times. One can't say 1+1=3 is true for them but not for someone else.

But it is truth, they just don't have the facts.

EDIT: In Darins example it's speculation, he doesn't know how tall I am.
5stringJeff
03-01-2007, 03:22 PM
Well, if 1+1=3 is "true for you," then what facts led you to that conclusion?
Nienna
03-01-2007, 03:27 PM
Truth is what IS. Truth cannot be extricated from the idea of existence. People may have different perspectives, but there is an objective Truth that exists outside personal perception.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 03:33 PM
Well, if 1+1=3 is "true for you," then what facts led you to that conclusion?

Something I was exposed to during a cockpit resource management course.

Goes like this…
There is an in-flight problem….
Captain has an idea of how to deal with it =1
First officer has an idea of how to deal with it =2

They discuss and come up with another idea =3

1+1=3
5stringJeff
03-01-2007, 03:35 PM
Something I was exposed to during a cockpit resource management course.

Goes like this…
There is an in-flight problem….
Captain has an idea of how to deal with it =1
First officer has an idea of how to deal with it =2

They discuss and come up with another idea =3

1+1=3

That's much, much different than saying that the number 1, added to itself, equals the number three. You're using those numbers as symbols.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 03:39 PM
That's much, much different than saying that the number 1, added to itself, equals the number three. You're using those numbers as symbols.

:laugh2: That's what they are. :laugh2:
GW in Ohio
03-01-2007, 03:48 PM
What is truth?

What do I look like, Pontius Pilate?

But I'll answer the question.......

What is truth? It's what I read on the Drudge Report.
darin
03-01-2007, 03:53 PM
But it is truth, they just don't have the facts.

EDIT: In Darins example it's speculation, he doesn't know how tall I am.

Why would I care how tall you are? You weren't part of of the example.


Jeff is taller than darin
Mr. P thinks Jeff is not taller
Mr. P's unwillingness to believe Jeff is taller doesnt change the fact that it's an absolute truth that Jeff IS taller.

:)
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Why would I care how tall you are? You weren't part of of the example.


Jeff is taller than darin
Mr. P thinks Jeff is not taller
Mr. P's unwillingness to believe Jeff is taller doesnt change the fact that it's an absolute truth that Jeff IS taller.

:)

Wrong, I didn't say Jeff wasn't taller than me, you said he was. Prove it's truth.:lol:
The ClayTaurus
03-01-2007, 04:03 PM
The problem with much of the world is people attempting to pass off their personal truth as absolute truth.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 04:12 PM
The problem with much of the world is people attempting to pass of their personal truth as absolute truth.

This is true.
darin
03-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Wrong, I didn't say Jeff wasn't taller than me, you said he was. Prove it's truth.:lol:

I never said Jeff was taller than you.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 09:07 PM
Misread sorry.
Abbey Marie
03-01-2007, 09:14 PM
That's much, much different than saying that the number 1, added to itself, equals the number three. You're using those numbers as symbols.

Demostrating the point that sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.
Mr. P
03-01-2007, 09:38 PM
Demostrating the point that sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

:2up:
Missileman
03-01-2007, 10:18 PM
Truth is an absolute, totaly unaffected by either belief or disbelief. Truth is irrefuteable, unchallengeable, and immune to scrutiny.
GW in Ohio
03-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Certain truths are obvious and discernible to everyone.....


Murder is wrong.
It's wrong to steal something that belongs to someone else.
Paris Hilton is an irrelevant, tedious narcissist.


Other truths are not as obvious (although it doesn't make them any less true). These are probably better stated as questions than as absolute statements.


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