Common sense and religion

[actsnoblemartin]

I think it is unfair and untrue to say, as some in america or the west believe that every muslim is a terrorist. And the koran is nothing but evil.

I am also appalled at the fact that, we do not allow for criticism of the koran, based on certain passages, as i would expect of any religious text.

An islamic terrorist, doesnt only kill non muslims, but muslims as well.

I simply refuse to be extreme about this

I do however respect everyone's opinion, even if i dont agree with it.

your thoughts on these religious issues, and common sense on the decline.

[My Winter Storm]

Well, first off, I don't believe eithor that all Muslims are terrorists, although the majority of terror attacks of late have been committed by Muslims. However, this means nothing, as other religious groups have committed terror attacks also.

It is a shame that we cannot critise the Koran like we do the Bible, like Christianity, there are good things and bad things about the religion, and we should know about all this. We can't just say that the religion is all good when it may not be.

However, I would think that the parts of the Koran that we would think of as bad are the parts that Muslim extremists misinterpret, much like certain passages in the Bible being misinterpreted by Christians. I think it's important to focus on the good, it's only when people of certain religions start judging and getting hateful that we should kindly remind them what their Holy book says.

[Gaffer]

Know your enemy. Learn what he is about.

islam is an evil theocracy. If there's a devil his name is allah. As I said in another post. Not all muslims are evil, just as not all nazi's were evil. But the goals are the same. Even the methods are the same.

Get on your google and ride. Research about islam. Not the dhimi appeaser version but the real islam. Antimullah, Jihadwatch, Amil Imani, Anti jihad, just to name a few. Find out what former muslims have to say about islam.

You can't make fun of islam because then they don't have control. Whether you are a muslim or not they have to control you.

islam means submission, if you do not submit you die. It's that simple.

[Dilloduck]

Well, first off, I don't believe eithor that all Muslims are terrorists, although the majority of terror attacks of late have been committed by Muslims. However, this means nothing, as other religious groups have committed terror attacks also.

It is a shame that we cannot critise the Koran like we do the Bible, like Christianity, there are good things and bad things about the religion, and we should know about all this. We can't just say that the religion is all good when it may not be.

However, I would think that the parts of the Koran that we would think of as bad are the parts that Muslim extremists misinterpret, much like certain passages in the Bible being misinterpreted by Christians. I think it's important to focus on the good, it's only when people of certain religions start judging and getting hateful that we should kindly remind them what their Holy book says.

Good reason to not have a "Holy book". No one can remind you of your failings. How convenient ! :laugh2:

[Hobbit]

First off, I'm sick of hearing this 'other people are also terrorists' stuff, as if that makes it less bad. The VAST majority of terrorist attacks worldwide are by Muslim terrorists. Coming in at a distant second are environmental terrorists (which, other than 2001, cause the most damage to U.S. domestic interests every year). Christians barely make the list with abortion bombings.

My problem with Islam isn't that I think all Muslims are terrorists, but rather the logical conclusion of the Koran. If you read the Bible straight through, consider context, draw connections, and all that other stuff, the logical conclusion that extends from the Bible is that I should be kind to others, obey the law, and tell other people about God. The logical conclusion that extends from the Koran, however, is that I should help Islam conquer the entire world and force conversions at the end of a gun.

[midcan5]

All religions hold the potential for violence as they possess a truth that requires submission. Christianity Judaism and Islam all share the same roots and all contain passages that most would condemn.

Notice the criticism of Wright for his comments, how is the hatred directed at him any different than the hatred some Muslims direct at us. Is he justified in his criticisms? Are some justified in condemning him? America has become a church for many, a scared thing we cannot view with a critical eye. And terrorism is a tool, McVeigh, Rudolph are some of our own, so pretending it is the other or only concerns religion is equally short sighted.


"Terrorism requires alienated individuals, a complicit community, and a legitimizing ideology motivated by a desire for revenge, renown, and reaction from the enemy." Louise Richardson

[theHawk]

All religions hold the potential for violence as they possess a truth that requires submission. Christianity Judaism and Islam all share the same roots and all contain passages that most would condemn.

Islam does not share the same roots as Christianity or Judaism, other than they are the decendants of Abraham. The religion of Islam is based on the belief that a warmongering pedophile was a true prophet of God.





Notice the criticism of Wright for his comments, how is the hatred directed at him any different than the hatred some Muslims direct at us. Is he justified in his criticisms? Are some justified in condemning him? America has become a church for many, a scared thing we cannot view with a critical eye. And terrorism is a tool, McVeigh, Rudolph are some of our own, so pretending it is the other or only concerns religion is equally short sighted.
True, he does sound exactly like what a Muslim would be preaching. The difference is in the culture's reaction. Here in America, that kind of hatred is rejected, which is why there was so much outcry over Wright's comments. Do you honestly believe those muslim sermons condemning America are rejected in a similar manner over in the middle east? Of course they aren't, they are widely accepted because its in accordance with their bastardized religion.





"Terrorism requires alienated individuals, a complicit community, and a legitimizing ideology motivated by a desire for revenge, renown, and reaction from the enemy." Louise Richardson
Yup, that pretty much sums up Islam in the middle east.

[Abbey Marie]

Well, first off, I don't believe eithor that all Muslims are terrorists, although the majority of terror attacks of late have been committed by Muslims. However, this means nothing, as other religious groups have committed terror attacks also.

It is a shame that we cannot critise the Koran like we do the Bible, like Christianity, there are good things and bad things about the religion, and we should know about all this. We can't just say that the religion is all good when it may not be.

However, I would think that the parts of the Koran that we would think of as bad are the parts that Muslim extremists misinterpret, much like certain passages in the Bible being misinterpreted by Christians. I think it's important to focus on the good, it's only when people of certain religions start judging and getting hateful that we should kindly remind them what their Holy book says.

SdA, I think I read somewhere that you consider yourself gay. If not, I apologize. You do realize that under Islamic rule, being gay is punishable by death?

[My Winter Storm]

SdA, I think I read somewhere that you consider yourself gay. If not, I apologize. You do realize that under Islamic rule, being gay is punishable by death?

Yes, and I do know what the Koran thinks about gay people. However, I have also read the Koran, as I have read the Bible, and I find the two books vitually incomparable. They have their good passages and bad passages, we just choose what we take on board and what we ignore.

That's just my perspective, though, others may not reach the same conclusion as I.

[Abbey Marie]

Yes, and I do know what the Koran thinks about gay people. However, I have also read the Koran, as I have read the Bible, and I find the two books vitually incomparable. They have their good passages and bad passages, we just choose what we take on board and what we ignore.

That's just my perspective, though, others may not reach the same conclusion as I.

Oh, they're incomparable alright. I think you chose the wrong word for your purposes.

So, in your overweening need to establish a moral equivalency where there is none between these two books, you even choose to ignore the fact that only under the Koran, would your very life be in danger. I think you must be very young, Sharon.

It is these PC blinders that you and others wear that make us all so very vulnerable to the Islamic threat.

[diuretic]

First off, I'm sick of hearing this 'other people are also terrorists' stuff, as if that makes it less bad. The VAST majority of terrorist attacks worldwide are by Muslim terrorists. Coming in at a distant second are environmental terrorists (which, other than 2001, cause the most damage to U.S. domestic interests every year). Christians barely make the list with abortion bombings.

My problem with Islam isn't that I think all Muslims are terrorists, but rather the logical conclusion of the Koran. If you read the Bible straight through, consider context, draw connections, and all that other stuff, the logical conclusion that extends from the Bible is that I should be kind to others, obey the law, and tell other people about God. The logical conclusion that extends from the Koran, however, is that I should help Islam conquer the entire world and force conversions at the end of a gun.

I have to disagree with your point about the Bible. To come to the conclusion you draw you'd have to have amnesia about the Old Testament. You're portraying the entire Bible as the New Testament. You can't cherry pick. You have condemned Islam from your reading of the Koran. Since I know nothing about the Koran then I'll have to say I can't say if you're inaccurate or not.

[diuretic]

Oh, they're incomparable alright. I think you chose the wrong word for your purposes.

So, in your overweening need to establish a moral equivalency where there is none between these two books, you even choose to ignore the fact that only under the Koran, would your very life be in danger. I think you must be very young, Sharon.

It is these PC blinders that you and others wear that make us all so very vulnerable to the Islamic threat.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Old Testament condemn gays in a few places?

[Gaffer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Old Testament condemn gays in a few places?

It doesn't condemn them, it just says they are an abomination. Nowhere in the old or new testament does it say they are to be killed.

[Yurt]

It doesn't condemn them, it just says they are an abomination. Nowhere in the old or new testament does it say they are to be killed.

actually, its says the "act" is an abomination, not the person

[Gaffer]

actually, its says the "act" is an abomination, not the person

I stand corrected.

[My Winter Storm]

Oh, they're incomparable alright. I think you chose the wrong word for your purposes.

So, in your overweening need to establish a moral equivalency where there is none between these two books, you even choose to ignore the fact that only under the Koran, would your very life be in danger. I think you must be very young, Sharon.

It is these PC blinders that you and others wear that make us all so very vulnerable to the Islamic threat.

All I'm saying is that there a bad things in the Koran, as there are bad things in the Bible. Likewise, there are good things in each book.

I don't judge a religion by a book, it doesn't matter to me what the Koran says, what matters to me is how people interpret it.

[Gaffer]

All I'm saying is that there a bad things in the Koran, as there are bad things in the Bible. Likewise, there are good things in each book.

I don't judge a religion by a book, it doesn't matter to me what the Koran says, what matters to me is how people interpret it.

That's where you are misinformed. There are no good things in the koran. Intolerance and death are all it teaches.

[My Winter Storm]

That's where you are misinformed. There are no good things in the koran. Intolerance and death are all it teaches.

I have read the Koran, and I have read a few good things. I won't judge the whole religion by what the Koran says, as I have said elsewhere, the majority of Muslims are calm and peaceful people, and they are being ostracised by a few bad guys.

[diuretic]

It doesn't condemn them, it just says they are an abomination. Nowhere in the old or new testament does it say they are to be killed.

But I bet a few jurisdictions throughout history in Christian countries relied on the Bible for the decision to put homosexuals to death.

[actsnoblemartin]

I believe you are right that their are many evil versus in the koran, and that trying to excuse their bad behavior by trying to condemn other religions is unfair and untrue


First off, I'm sick of hearing this 'other people are also terrorists' stuff, as if that makes it less bad. The VAST majority of terrorist attacks worldwide are by Muslim terrorists. Coming in at a distant second are environmental terrorists (which, other than 2001, cause the most damage to U.S. domestic interests every year). Christians barely make the list with abortion bombings.

My problem with Islam isn't that I think all Muslims are terrorists, but rather the logical conclusion of the Koran. If you read the Bible straight through, consider context, draw connections, and all that other stuff, the logical conclusion that extends from the Bible is that I should be kind to others, obey the law, and tell other people about God. The logical conclusion that extends from the Koran, however, is that I should help Islam conquer the entire world and force conversions at the end of a gun.

[actsnoblemartin]

gays are not being murdered en-mass in christian countries, and im tired of all the islam-apologizers... not because i hate islam, but because its not true.


Oh, they're incomparable alright. I think you chose the wrong word for your purposes.

So, in your overweening need to establish a moral equivalency where there is none between these two books, you even choose to ignore the fact that only under the Koran, would your very life be in danger. I think you must be very young, Sharon.

It is these PC blinders that you and others wear that make us all so very vulnerable to the Islamic threat.

[actsnoblemartin]

but there lies the problem, too many muslims are reading the koran and interpreting the verses for jihad, and the vast majority nearly all terrorism in the world is being committed by muslims.

I am not condemning all muslims, but i dont like the koran, and probably wont until it takes out the evil verses that talk about killing your neighbor.




All I'm saying is that there a bad things in the Koran, as there are bad things in the Bible. Likewise, there are good things in each book.

I don't judge a religion by a book, it doesn't matter to me what the Koran says, what matters to me is how people interpret it.

[diuretic]

Think broader. The problem is a fundamentalist mind-set. I'll concede that right now at this time in human history it appears to be the fundamentalist Islamic mind-set (acknowledging that not all of Islam is of this mindset) is driving Islamist terrorist activity. But let's not forget that throughout our species history various religions have been used to justify terrible brutality and this is just the latest manifestation of that mindset.

Yes, the culprit is the religious fundamentalist mindset.

I know, I know, Christian fundies don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers. Nope, Christianity - apart from a few unrepresentative abortion-clinic murderers and McVeigh and his mates - has passed the situation where the fundamentalist mindset has much authority.

But historically it was right there so before you object think about it.

It was the mindset that allowed King Edward I to decree that all Jews should be expelled from England in 1291. It doesn't matter what ulterior motives he had, the decree had an effect. Exile of English citizens on the basis of their religion.

Anyway, as I said, Christianity is over the "kill them all and let God sort them out" mindset.

But if the Koran and the Hadith teach intolerance and death then Muslims are pretty damn slow in picking it up. Where I live we've had a Mosque in the middle of the city since 1889 and we haven't had one act of atrocity committed in the name of Islam since 1889 to right now. You'd think they'd get their act together wouldn't you? We've also got two rather large mosques in a couple of different suburbs. Any atrocities? Nope not a thing

Well I suppose that means that the Koran and the Hadith DON'T require intolerance and death then - either that or we have some very lazy Muslims.

Extremists aren't mainstream, that's why they're called extremists. Adopting the mindset that average people are extremists is not only counter-productive it's counter-intuitive.

[actsnoblemartin]

I think you make an excellent point about how religious fundamentalism, in our history and even, extreme and fundamentalist thinking has and will continue to get us into to trouble, and i appreciate your intellectual honesty.


Think broader. The problem is a fundamentalist mind-set. I'll concede that right now at this time in human history it appears to be the fundamentalist Islamic mind-set (acknowledging that not all of Islam is of this mindset) is driving Islamist terrorist activity. But let's not forget that throughout our species history various religions have been used to justify terrible brutality and this is just the latest manifestation of that mindset.

Yes, the culprit is the religious fundamentalist mindset.

I know, I know, Christian fundies don't fly aircraft into skyscrapers. Nope, Christianity - apart from a few unrepresentative abortion-clinic murderers and McVeigh and his mates - has passed the situation where the fundamentalist mindset has much authority.

But historically it was right there so before you object think about it.

It was the mindset that allowed King Edward I to decree that all Jews should be expelled from England in 1291. It doesn't matter what ulterior motives he had, the decree had an effect. Exile of English citizens on the basis of their religion.

Anyway, as I said, Christianity is over the "kill them all and let God sort them out" mindset.

But if the Koran and the Hadith teach intolerance and death then Muslims are pretty damn slow in picking it up. Where I live we've had a Mosque in the middle of the city since 1889 and we haven't had one act of atrocity committed in the name of Islam since 1889 to right now. You'd think they'd get their act together wouldn't you? We've also got two rather large mosques in a couple of different suburbs. Any atrocities? Nope not a thing

Well I suppose that means that the Koran and the Hadith DON'T require intolerance and death then - either that or we have some very lazy Muslims.

Extremists aren't mainstream, that's why they're called extremists. Adopting the mindset that average people are extremists is not only counter-productive it's counter-intuitive.

[diuretic]

I try martin, actually I've been told a lot that I try :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

Good points D. And fundamentalism is definitely the central point of most conflicts. I would point out that muslims have remained dormant since the ottoman's. And until islam took front stage in the world with it's attacks, it was always ignored by the western countries as just a quaint middle east religion.

For the most part christian fundamentalists can't wait to sit on their heavenly cloud and watch those they deem sinners burning and suffering in hell. The muslims on the other hand feel its their duty to reap vengeance on the infidels by torture and murder and then watch the sinners burn and suffer in hell.

[Hagbard Celine]

It doesn't condemn them, it just says they are an abomination. Nowhere in the old or new testament does it say they are to be killed.

It says "surely they are to be put to death" if I remember correctly. Even if not, the Bible is equally horrific in its strict enforcement of what it considers to be "sexual piety." Here are a few examples:

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

[diuretic]

Good points D. And fundamentalism is definitely the central point of most conflicts. I would point out that muslims have remained dormant since the ottoman's. And until islam took front stage in the world with it's attacks, it was always ignored by the western countries as just a quaint middle east religion.

For the most part christian fundamentalists can't wait to sit on their heavenly cloud and watch those they deem sinners burning and suffering in hell. The muslims on the other hand feel its their duty to reap vengeance on the infidels by torture and murder and then watch the sinners burn and suffer in hell.

My turn to say it - good points. I hadn't even thought of the nature of Islam before the comparatively recent manifestations of radical Islamism. You're right though, it was shoved to one side and basically ignored.

There was an ideological struggle going on but we (and I mean the west) ignored it.

I know I've mentioned this before but in his book "Islam", Alfred Guillaume did mention that (and the book was published in 1961 - Cold War time) there was a huge struggle between a progressive view of Islam and a conservative view of the religion. But of course back then no-one was listening, we were all watching the Soviets, nothing else was a threat. Guillaume cautioned us to help the progressives, but, as I said, we were watching the Soviets (totally understandably I might add).

[Hagbard Celine]

My turn to say it - good points. I hadn't even thought of the nature of Islam before the comparatively recent manifestations of radical Islamism. You're right though, it was shoved to one side and basically ignored.

There was an ideological struggle going on but we (and I mean the west) ignored it.

I know I've mentioned this before but in his book "Islam", Alfred Guillaume did mention that (and the book was published in 1961 - Cold War time) there was a huge struggle between a progressive view of Islam and a conservative view of the religion. But of course back then no-one was listening, we were all watching the Soviets, nothing else was a threat. Guillaume cautioned us to help the progressives, but, as I said, we were watching the Soviets (totally understandably I might add).

Personally, I don't believe that the fear being exhibited over Islam is justified. They are simply the newest thing to "fear." Before them it was Communists. Before that, Nazis. Ad Infinitum. What is good and right always prevails.
I also think there is cause for hope in the matter you've brought up since progressivism and change always triumphs over conservatism.

[diuretic]

Personally, I don't believe that the fear being exhibited over Islam is justified. They are simply the newest thing to "fear." Before them it was Communists. Before that, Nazis. Ad Infinitum. What is good and right always prevails.
I also think there is cause for hope in the matter you've brought up since progressivism and change always triumphs over conservatism.

It's not so much a fear of Islam as a fear of extremists who twist the teachings of Islam to meet their own agenda. The House of Saud took the Arabian Peninsula with Wahabbist warriors, poor ignorant sods who'd believe anything because they were told it. Ring a bell? True enough, the Sauds didn't know about the oil until some time after they'd taken Arabia and made it Saudi Arabia but hey land is wealth right? And to keep a hold of it they had to keep the Wahabbist approach going. There's nothing like invoking Allah to get people to comply. I mean it's how things were done in feudal Europe. If you want to control the people you invoked God. No difference, same mindset.

What kills that mindset is education. And what's being denied to people in the Islamist countries? Education. I won't go on about it but the same thing is happening in other parts of the non-Islamic world. The fundamentalist mindset thrives on recruiting the ignorant - and I say that without malice. Keeping people ignorant is the key to domestic power in those countries. And that's why I totally despise those who would engender fundamentalism in whatever religion.

[My Winter Storm]

but there lies the problem, too many muslims are reading the koran and interpreting the verses for jihad, and the vast majority nearly all terrorism in the world is being committed by muslims.

I am not condemning all muslims, but i dont like the koran, and probably wont until it takes out the evil verses that talk about killing your neighbor.

I won't like the Bible until it takes out all the hateful stuff about homosexuals, women and people with long hair. (I have read those two or three pages that are filled with basically 'kill this person, and kill that person' for all manner of trivial things) Whether people take that on board matters not to me.

And while we talk about Muslim terrorists, lets not forget the Christians murdered about a million women and children in the late 17th century - tying them to stakes and burning them alive. That's something many Christians don't like to reminded of.

When Christians speak of the evil Muslims may do, let them not forget what their people did in the past, shall we?

[manu1959]

I won't like the Bible until it takes out all the hateful stuff about homosexuals, women and people with long hair. (I have read those two or three pages that are filled with basically 'kill this person, and kill that person' for all manner of trivial things) Whether people take that on board matters not to me.

And while we talk about Muslim terrorists, lets not forget the Christians murdered about a million women and children in the late 17th century - tying them to stakes and burning them alive. That's something many Christians don't like to reminded of.

When Christians speak of the evil Muslims may do, let them not forget what their people did in the past, shall we?


as far as i can tell the 17th century was a while ago......some muslims still seem to be living in it though.....

[My Winter Storm]

as far as i can tell the 17th century was a while ago......some muslims still seem to be living in it though.....

It was a long time ago, I know, but Christians should still remember and think about what their religion did to all those innocent people.

[Dilloduck]

It was a long time ago, I know, but Christians should still remember and think about what their religion did to all those innocent people.

How is that going to help ? Seriously--how is thinking about 300 years ago gonig to help?

[My Winter Storm]

How is that going to help ? Seriously--how is thinking about 300 years ago gonig to help?

Obviously it isn't going to do anything, because what is in the past is done. But at the same time, while Christians go on about the evils of Islam, they should remember what their people did all those years ago. To not would be to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened, but it did. Just because it may have happened in the past does not make it any less heinous.

And just because the Crusades happened hundreds of years ago didn't stop the Pope from quoting some crap about it from a hundred year old pieceof text, did it?

[Dilloduck]

Obviously it isn't going to do anything, because what is in the past is done. But at the same time, while Christians go on about the evils of Islam, they should remember what their people did all those years ago. To not would be to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened, but it did. Just because it may have happened in the past does not make it any less heinous.

And just because the Crusades happened hundreds of years ago didn't stop the Pope from quoting some crap about it from a hundred year old pieceof text, did it?

Any Christian alive today is not responsible for anything done by a Christian 300 years ago. This is the kind of thinking that produces guilt and NO ACTION.

[manu1959]

It was a long time ago, I know, but Christians should still remember and think about what their religion did to all those innocent people.

why......do you think about all the people killed by non religous people....

[My Winter Storm]

Any Christian alive today is not responsible for anything done by a Christian 300 years ago. This is the kind of thinking that produces guilt and NO ACTION.

And any Muslim alive today is not responsible for the Crusades, and nor are they responsible for any terrorist attack a Muslim may commit - after all, it wasn't them who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up a bus, was it?

Christians don't have to take responsiblity for the Salam witch trials, but a little acknowledgement wouldn't go astray, because it seems to me that Christians don't like to admit this little piece in their history.

[Dilloduck]

And any Muslim alive today is not responsible for the Crusades, and nor are they responsible for any terrorist attack a Muslim may commit - after all, it wasn't them who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up a bus, was it?

Christians don't have to take responsiblity for the Salam witch trials, but a little acknowledgement wouldn't go astray, because it seems to me that Christians don't like to admit this little piece in their history.

After everyone has contemplated the sins of our fathers and apologized, what do you think they should do ?

[diuretic]

I won't like the Bible until it takes out all the hateful stuff about homosexuals, women and people with long hair. (I have read those two or three pages that are filled with basically 'kill this person, and kill that person' for all manner of trivial things) Whether people take that on board matters not to me.

And while we talk about Muslim terrorists, lets not forget the Christians murdered about a million women and children in the late 17th century - tying them to stakes and burning them alive. That's something many Christians don't like to reminded of.

When Christians speak of the evil Muslims may do, let them not forget what their people did in the past, shall we?

The Old Testament is a reflection of the values of a nomadic society in an extremely harsh environment. There was a need for authoritarian leadership and for obedience and adherence to a code of rules for living in that environment. If you read Leviticus you'll see that it contains - among other things - some pretty good survival tips. Even the dietary prohibitions make sense. No eating shellfish. Why? Well we know even today that it's reasonably easy to become very sick from eating tainted shellfish and that's under our modern food production conditions, imagine what it was like back then when the Old Testament was compiled.

The thing about killings. Nomadic people don't have prisons and if someone is seriously disruptive there are two choices - exile or death.

We need to see the remarks in the Old Testament in the light of the way things were then.

[Gaffer]

Obviously it isn't going to do anything, because what is in the past is done. But at the same time, while Christians go on about the evils of Islam, they should remember what their people did all those years ago. To not would be to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened, but it did. Just because it may have happened in the past does not make it any less heinous.

And just because the Crusades happened hundreds of years ago didn't stop the Pope from quoting some crap about it from a hundred year old pieceof text, did it?

You really need to do some reading on history. There were not millions of women and children killed 300 years ago. What you are referring to happened during the inquisition. It happened in Spain and southern France. And their victims were mostly muslims, with a few jews thrown in for good measure. It was Spain's way of getting rid of the the Moors.

The crusades took place as a reaction to the muslim invasion of southern Europe. They pushed them back into the middle east but ran out of steam before finishing the job.

The pope quoted another pope to make a point. Not to say he agreed with him. I on the other hand do agree with him. The muslims cannot be trusted and should not be dealt with. A fundamentalist christian can be annoying, a fundamentalist muslim is dangerous.

[My Winter Storm]

After everyone has contemplated the sins of our fathers and apologized, what do you think they should do ?

Nothing, just acknowledge that Christianity wasn't a good religion once upon a time. If it was, those people would not have been killed.

[Dilloduck]

The Old Testament is a reflection of the values of a nomadic society in an extremely harsh environment. There was a need for authoritarian leadership and for obedience and adherence to a code of rules for living in that environment. If you read Leviticus you'll see that it contains - among other things - some pretty good survival tips. Even the dietary prohibitions make sense. No eating shellfish. Why? Well we know even today that it's reasonably easy to become very sick from eating tainted shellfish and that's under our modern food production conditions, imagine what it was like back then when the Old Testament was compiled.

The thing about killings. Nomadic people don't have prisons and if someone is seriously disruptive there are two choices - exile or death.

We need to see the remarks in the Old Testament in the light of the way things were then.


adherence to a code of rules for living in that environment

Still pretty appropriate for today don't you think ?

[Dilloduck]

Nothing, just acknowledge that Christianity wasn't a good religion once upon a time. If it was, those people would not have been killed.

What is it that makes you so sure it was the religion that was bad ? Isn't it possible that the people didn't understand it ?

[My Winter Storm]

What is it that makes you so sure it was the religion that was bad ? Isn't it possible that the people didn't understand it ?

Like the people who don't understand the way the Koran should be interpreted?

[Dilloduck]

Like the people who don't understand the way the Koran should be interpreted?

exactly------would you have tried to stop them ?

[Gaffer]

Like the people who don't understand the way the Koran should be interpreted?

I don't think you have read any more of the koran than you have of the bible. You have read what some dhimi said nice about the koran and took that for the truth. You read a couple of pages from the bible and decided you didn't like what it said and quit.

So here I am an atheist defending Christianity over islam. Go figure.

D's post explained it very well. You have to consider the times and conditions of the laws and restrictions laid down on people. Western civilization has moved on from those times. islam is still living by the 6th century rules. And they insist on imposing those rules on everyone else.

[My Winter Storm]

exactly------would you have tried to stop them ?

You mean stop terrorist attacks???

[My Winter Storm]

I don't think you have read any more of the koran than you have of the bible.

I have read the Koran (most of it) and I have spoken to many Muslims, because I wanted to find out for myself what they believed. I found them to be very polite and loving people. Yes they believe much the same sins as in the Bible, but they showed a lot more respect for me as a person than any Christian has ever shown me, which is why I'll defend Islam over Christianity any day.

[Dilloduck]

You mean stop terrorist attacks???

Any group who was intent on killing someone else.

[Dilloduck]

I have read the Koran (most of it) and I have spoken to many Muslims, because I wanted to find out for myself what they believed. I found them to be very polite and loving people. Yes they believe much the same sins as in the Bible, but they showed a lot more respect for me as a person than any Christian has ever shown me, which is why I'll defend Islam over Christianity any day.

So Australian Muslims have more respect for you than Australian Christians ?

[Gaffer]

I have read the Koran (most of it) and I have spoken to many Muslims, because I wanted to find out for myself what they believed. I found them to be very polite and loving people. Yes they believe much the same sins as in the Bible, but they showed a lot more respect for me as a person than any Christian has ever shown me, which is why I'll defend Islam over Christianity any day.

You have been had.

Ask them about women's rights. You are aware the koran allows muslims to lie to infidels? Are you aware of your second class standing among muslims as a female? Do you know what a dhimi is? You are one.

Be assured, any defense of islam by you will be attacked by me.

[My Winter Storm]

You have been had.

Ask them about women's rights. You are aware the koran allows muslims to lie to infidels? Are you aware of your second class standing among muslims as a female? Do you know what a dhimi is? You are one.

Be assured, any defense of islam by you will be attacked by me.

I've asked about womens rights as that was the thing that most concerned me. They all claim they are very happy, and cared for, and that the men are nice people and that they, as women, are considered very important. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

It's those Islamic countries that pracice Sharia law that is where the women are treated like dirt. The women I spoke to do not live under Sharia, and reject it, as do their husbands.

[My Winter Storm]

So Australian Muslims have more respect for you than Australian Christians ?

From my personal experiences ONLY, yes.

[Gaffer]

I've asked about womens rights as that was the thing that most concerned me. They all claim they are very happy, and cared for, and that the men are nice people and that they, as women, are considered very important. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

It's those Islamic countries that pracice Sharia law that is where the women are treated like dirt. The women I spoke to do not live under Sharia, and reject it, as do their husbands.

Then they are not practicing islam. They are muslims in name only.

[diuretic]

Still pretty appropriate for today don't you think ?

The rules are still applicable, yes, in that environment and in that social situation. I forgot the obivous dietary stricture on pork and its derivatives (derivatives - hog's bellies - sorry bad financial sector pun). Full of worms and other parasites, too risky to eat.

[Dilloduck]

The rules are still applicable, yes, in that environment and in that social situation. I forgot the obivous dietary stricture on pork and its derivatives (derivatives - hog's bellies - sorry bad financial sector pun). Full of worms and other parasites, too risky to eat.

Not anymore---hogs are fed carefully controlled and monitored feed. No more table scraps and the chances of trichinosis are
rare in America.

[Said1]

It was a long time ago, I know, but Christians should still remember and think about what their religion did to all those innocent people.

And your people did atrocious things to aboriginal people. You don't have to answer for it and neither do Christians have to answer for things that are no longer a common practice, but were in the 13th century.

[DragonStryk72]

Then they are not practicing islam. They are muslims in name only.

So if you do not put your child to death for talking back to you or his mother (Leviticus, the Book of Law), then you are a christian in name only?

[manu1959]

Nothing, just acknowledge that Christianity wasn't a good religion once upon a time. If it was, those people would not have been killed.

the religion was not the issue.....the men were.....

[manu1959]

So if you do not put your child to death for talking back to you or his mother (Leviticus, the Book of Law), then you are a christian in name only?

which chapter.....

[diuretic]

Not anymore---hogs are fed carefully controlled and monitored feed. No more table scraps and the chances of trichinosis are
rare in America.

But back then they weren't able to breed pigs in such conditions. Come to think of it I wonder what breeds they had back then? All the ones I know (Landrace, Great White, Wessex etc) are all products of historical or contemporary breeding programmes. I'm thinking was there a form of original pig in the way that Aurochs was the original progenitor for Bos Taurus cattle of today (not sure about Bos Indicus). Anyway, thread drift I suppose.