Oil going up, gas following right behind

[mundame]

Oil is over 117 per barrel today and gasoline manufacturers "have not yet priced in the increases in their expenses."

My local Exxon station had regular gas at $3.47 last night, up from $3.39 two days ago.

Hey, it's a bargain......................our heating oil showed $3.79 on the last bill.

So what about all this?

Could be trouble.

[Pale Rider]

Heard that a typical families gas bill is $1,200 more now than it was six months ago, and it's putting a massive strain on a lot of lower income folks. They're calling this the worst fuel crisis in the history of this country, yet the feds are reluctant to release any of the strategic reserves.

We better get to drilling in that massive oil field they found in the Dakotas.

[mundame]

Heard that a typical families gas bill is $1,200 more now than it was six months ago.

I'm impressed with the heating oil --- HUGE bills this winter, never saw anything like it. $3.79 a gallon for heating oil??? Jeepers.

The government is hiding the actual inflation rate, the Wall Street Journal keeps saying --- they don't include either fuel or food, the two things inflating most.

[glockmail]

I'm impressed with the heating oil --- HUGE bills this winter, never saw anything like it. $3.79 a gallon for heating oil??? Jeepers....



I was sweating it myself, and in fact was thinking of converting over my boiler to use propane, since that's been around $2.85 or so. Then I did the math, a gallon of oil contains about 130,000 BTUs and a gallon of propane only about 92,000. So based on the propane price oil can go as high as $4.01 and still be less expensive. Plus an oil flame is hotter so heats water in the boiler more efficiently. I'm not sure what those relative factors are but it would be significant.

[theHawk]

We're doing this to ourselves.
As Pale said, that Dakota oil would be nice. Not to mention ANWR.
Wouldn't hurt to build some new nuclear plants either.

[Joe Steel]

The only way to solve the fossil fuels problem is to stop using fossil fuels. They're a finite resource and can only become more and more scarce. We should concentrate on renewables and alternate ways of doing what we do now with fossil fuels. For instance encourage use of higher density housing and electric railroads rather than suburbs served by Interstate highways.

[glockmail]

The only way to solve the fossil fuels problem is to stop using fossil fuels. They're a finite resource and can only become more and more scarce. We should concentrate on renewables and alternate ways of doing what we do now with fossil fuels. For instance encourage use of higher density housing and electric railroads rather than suburbs served by Interstate highways. Where does the electricity come from, Joe?

[Trigg]

Heard that a typical families gas bill is $1,200 more now than it was six months ago, and it's putting a massive strain on a lot of lower income folks. They're calling this the worst fuel crisis in the history of this country, yet the feds are reluctant to release any of the strategic reserves.

We better get to drilling in that massive oil field they found in the Dakotas.

They're also reluctant to suspend the fed. and state gas tax.

They need to build more refineries.

[MtnBiker]

Where does the electricity come from, Joe?

An outlet, duh!

[theHawk]

The only way to solve the fossil fuels problem is to stop using fossil fuels. They're a finite resource and can only become more and more scarce. We should concentrate on renewables and alternate ways of doing what we do now with fossil fuels. For instance encourage use of higher density housing and electric railroads rather than suburbs served by Interstate highways.

So lets just let the prices of gas and oil rise in hopes it will drive demand and use down? Meanwhile the economy would tank and poor people would be in a real bind.

We need some short term solutions to increase oil capacity. The things you are talking about would take decades to implement across the country.

[manu1959]

cough up 30k and put solar panels on the roof and you are off the grid......

hell they could postpone earmarks for one year and take the entire country off the grid.....

[Joe Steel]

Where does the electricity come from, Joe?

A variety of sources; hydro, solar and wind among them. The US could fill all its energy needs with wind gererated electricity produced in the Datkotas with a bit help from Texas.

[Joe Steel]

So lets just let the prices of gas and oil rise in hopes it will drive demand and use down? Meanwhile the economy would tank and poor people would be in a real bind.

We need some short term solutions to increase oil capacity. The things you are talking about would take decades to implement across the country.

We tried gasoline rationing in the '70s. It was unpleasant, to say the least. I'm not sure the the total social cost of letting the price rise is any greater than what we experienced.

As far as the economy is concerned, I don't think it would be permanently affected. Yes, we would have some reallocation difficulties but we could adapt; more telecomuting, online commerce, rail rather than rubber-tire transportation. We're already set-up for that kind of stuff. All we have to do is commit ourselves to using it as muc as possible.

[glockmail]

.... The US could fill all its energy needs with wind gererated electricity produced in the Datkotas with a bit help from Texas. I'd like to see proof of that.

[glockmail]

We tried gasoline rationing in the '70s. It was unpleasant, to say the least. I'm not sure the the total social cost of letting the price rise is any greater than what we experienced.

As far as the economy is concerned, I don't think it would be permanently affected. Yes, we would have some reallocation difficulties but we could adapt; more telecomuting, online commerce, rail rather than rubber-tire transportation. We're already set-up for that kind of stuff. All we have to do is commit ourselves to using it as muc as possible.

I lived through those Carter years. It was much worse than paying a little more for gas. We would cash our paychecks and lierally drive right to the store, and stock up on what we needed, because next week the costs would be higher. Inflation was at 17%. Mortgage rates were through the roof, and didn't recover to normal rates until 13 or 14 years later.

Rail is 4 times more fuel efficient than trucks but the railroad unions make life miserable for customers.

[Classact]

Oil is over 117 per barrel today and gasoline manufacturers "have not yet priced in the increases in their expenses."

My local Exxon station had regular gas at $3.47 last night, up from $3.39 two days ago.

Hey, it's a bargain......................our heating oil showed $3.79 on the last bill.

So what about all this?

Could be trouble.Oil prices are high because of "WORLD DEMAND" and world oil is priced in dollars. The US demand has sharply dropped off for oil and imports are sharply down as prices at the pump continue to go up.

Speculators are driving up the domestic price betting the demand will rebound as the weather gets warmer along with the limited refining abilities.

The dollar is weak because of several factors, among them are Americans live like Wimpie... for a hamburger today I'd gladly pay you on Tuesday... We have a trade imbalance in oil and consumer products and immigration situation that allows exporting the dollars that we do have.

Most of our oil comes from Mexico, Canada and Venezuela and the remainder comes from domestic sources. Domestic sources are supplemented by ethanol and energy is slightly supplemented by alternative sources of energy. The use of food products compounds the energy problem.

The true problem that caused the solution almost impossible is the trap America is in with competing ideologies. The two political parties see the answer at opposite ends of the objective. One party is supported by tree hungers that refuse many of the solutions that could solve the problem. This same party is supported by anti war... if we follow their lead they will not protect foreign oil availability and only support tree hugger types of energy. This will result in a ME problem that will cause gas prices to skyrocket and the American mob will demand we go to war to get our gas. The other party says punch holes in America, use nuclear, hydro and support gradual implementation of alternative energy while securing ME oil status quo. Each party is so equally divided and have equal ability to stop the others agenda that "we can't get there from here!"

We must stop using food products for energy... both parties support this for votes from farm states. We need to use food as a tool to balance out our trade deficit and not trade it for oil. We need to put high food tariffs on our food products to countries that have a trade deficit with America to strengthen the dollar. We need to use all farm land to produce food and quit paying farmers to leave land unproductive while keeping the price low for Americans and high for those, oil and consumer products nations that have an imbalance. We can't get there from here.

We need to build nuke power plants and hydro electric plants that produce cheap electricity, build electric cars that operate for less than gas cars... in a few years when the average Joe can afford to buy a used one the electric cars will put gas cars out of business and we could be in balance again.

[gabosaurus]

That is why my husband and I both drive Cavaliers. Great gas mileage. SUVs are instruments of the Arab terrorists!
Plus, living in Southern California means we don't use air conditioning and barely touch the heating during the winter.

[mundame]

A variety of sources; hydro, solar and wind among them. The US could fill all its energy needs with wind gererated electricity produced in the Datkotas with a bit help from Texas.


I think this is an exaggeration, but there is something to it: I read an Army environmental article saying that the Western states can produce most of their electricity because of the high winds in Colorado and Oklahoma, etc., that are the norm there. This is not problem-free, as harvesting the wind changes microclimates (and was going to be a problem with Army air training, which was the point of the article).

Amazing how many unintended consequences pop up! Who would have thought using corn for ethanol would produce the protests that it is causing higher prices for food and poor people starving! I didn't see that coming....

[red states rule]

I think this is an exaggeration, but there is something to it: I read an Army environmental article saying that the Western states can produce most of their electricity because of the high winds in Colorado and Oklahoma, etc., that are the norm there. This is not problem-free, as harvesting the wind changes microclimates (and was going to be a problem with Army air training, which was the point of the article).

Amazing how many unintended consequences pop up! Who would have thought using corn for ethanol would produce the protests that it is causing higher prices for food and poor people starving! I didn't see that coming....

If you are unhappy with gas prices, thank the liberals. They oppose any drilling, any new refineries, and think billions in higher taxes on the oil companies will lower gas prices

[mundame]

Oil prices are high because of "WORLD DEMAND" and world oil is priced in dollars.

Right. It's hard to remember, but the Treasury Department is trying to inflate us out of the credit crunch and the housing crisis, and the rest of the world is colluding. So the dollar is paper and inflates readily; oil is real and valuable so it gets more and more expensive in worthless dollar terms.



Speculators are driving up the domestic price betting the demand will rebound as the weather gets warmer along with the limited refining abilities.

Well, much of the speculation is based on world unrest and problems in oil production areas. Attacks on the oil delta in Nigeria, Chavez nationalizing oil, Zimbabwe just about to go up in smoke -- they don't have oil, but they're in Africa -- The situation in Iraq deteriorating progressively, and their oil being captured and smuggled more and more ---- oh, and the Scots are staging a big strike at the North Sea oil facilities!! Oh, thanx, McGuys, we really needed that. http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/megkerg%FCltek/speechless-smiley-014.gif



Most of our oil comes from Mexico, Canada and Venezuela and the remainder comes from domestic sources. Domestic sources are supplemented by ethanol and energy is slightly supplemented by alternative sources of energy. The use of food products compounds the energy problem.....We need to use all farm land to produce food and quit paying farmers to leave land unproductive while keeping the price low for Americans and high for those, oil and consumer products nations that have an imbalance. We can't get there from here.

I was discussing this situation last night, and someone pointed out that the high corn prices now that a new use has been found for corn is a result of government subsidies for ethanol. They subsidize ethanol, so the makers can bid more for corn. Corn (like oil) is fungible, therefore price of all corn goes up. ALSO, the government now requires ethanol to be a part of the mix at the gas station, so they HAVE to make ethanol out of corn and that puts a floor under prices ---- a high floor.

And so corn price goes up worldwide and the people who live on food aid (much of Africa) don't get as much, because the dollars these food aid people have don't go as far.




We need to build nuke power plants and hydro electric plants that produce cheap electricity, build electric cars that operate for less than gas cars... in a few years when the average Joe can afford to buy a used one the electric cars will put gas cars out of business and we could be in balance again.

Good, but......what is the one, sole, thing that produces basic shifts in transportation modes?

War.

War was required to shift from coal to oil (WWI, British and German navy ships, after which Britain went back into Iraq more than once to secure the oil.) War changed flying from no more than balloon-type reconnaissance to heavy bombers by the end of WWI. Four years! Though horses were used for transport in WWI, that war promoted the rapid development of trucks for transport.


In my opinion, until we have a war, we will not make the shift to new energy forms. Indeed, it would not surprise me at all if the government maneuvered us into war SO THAT we change -------- our energy independence is beginning to look like an existential issue, after all.

[mundame]

If you are unhappy with gas prices, thank the liberals. They oppose any drilling, any new refineries, and think billions in higher taxes on the oil companies will lower gas prices

We do need new refineries, I agree. Sooner the better.

[glockmail]

I think this is an exaggeration, but there is something to it: I read an Army environmental article saying that the Western states can produce most of their electricity because of the high winds in Colorado and Oklahoma, etc., that are the norm there. This is not problem-free, as harvesting the wind changes microclimates (and was going to be a problem with Army air training, which was the point of the article).

Amazing how many unintended consequences pop up! Who would have thought using corn for ethanol would produce the protests that it is causing higher prices for food and poor people starving! I didn't see that coming....
It should have been a no-brainer that using cropland for motor fuel would increase demand for cropland.

Less obvious is what would happen to global climates if we took all that energy out of the wind that circulates it around.

Since water is much denser than air, "sea mills" could be placed in the Gulf Stream, which is a very dependable current, and possibly generate a huge percentage of the electricity used on the East Coast. But- what will happen to the climate of Great Britain and Ireland, that depends on this flow of tropical water to moderate their temperatures?

Also less obvious, in fact invisible to rabid environmentalists, is the impact of not drilling for natural gas. Natural deposits release methane into the atmosphere, a phenomenon that can be reduced by exploiting that resource. Methane is several times more harmful as a greenhouse gas than the CO2 created if it were burned. Therefore by resisting efforts to use natural gas, environmentalists are contributing to global warming.

[red states rule]

We do need new refineries, I agree. Sooner the better.

In addition, we need to let oil comapnies do what they do best

Search, find, drill, pump, and ship the oil to the refineries

We also need to tell the enviro wackos to shut the hell up

[mundame]

Therefore by resisting efforts to use natural gas, environmentalists are contributing to global warming.


If there is such a thing...... http://bestsmileys.com/undersun/6.gif

http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/%E1llatok/animal-smiley-016.gif

[red states rule]

If there is such a thing...... http://bestsmileys.com/undersun/6.gif

http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/%E1llatok/animal-smiley-016.gif

When they have to, the global warming nuts make their crap up

ABC’s ‘20/20’: Gore Used Fictional Film Clip in ‘An Inconvenient Truth’
By Noel Sheppard | April 22, 2008 - 09:53 ET

It goes without saying that climate realists around the world believe Nobel Laureate Al Gore used false information throughout his schlockumentary "An Inconvenient Truth" in order to generate global warming hysteria.
On Friday, it was revealed by ABC News that one of the famous shots of supposed Antarctic ice shelves in the film was actually a computer-generated image from the 2004 science fiction blockbuster "The Day After Tomorrow."

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/04/22/abc-s-20-20-gore-used-fictional-film-clip-inconvenient-truth

[glockmail]

If there is such a thing...... http://bestsmileys.com/undersun/6.gif

http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/%E1llatok/animal-smiley-016.gif
I don't think there is either, but I am willing to err on the side of caution. That's why I support exploitation of natural gas and nuclear power.

[red states rule]

I don't think there is either, but I am willing to err on the side of caution. That's why I support exploitation of natural gas and nuclear power.

It is Earth Day, and I took the muffler off my car before I voted :laugh2:

[mundame]

It is Earth Day, and I took the muffler off my car before I voted :laugh2:


Uh-huh. RRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooommmm, pop-pop-pop -------- they probably thought they were under terrorist attack at that polling station.

http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/%F6rd%F6gi_mosolyg%F3k/devil-smiley-024.gif

[mundame]

... it was revealed by ABC News that one of the famous shots of supposed Antarctic ice shelves in the film was actually a computer-generated image from the 2004 science fiction blockbuster "The Day After Tomorrow."



Shoooooooooooooooo................... the whole entire "global warming" schtick was taken from "The Day After Tomorrow," in my considered opinion: life always imitates art, especially science.

Great movie, I've watched it several times.

Not reality, however.

[red states rule]

Uh-huh. RRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooommmm, pop-pop-pop -------- they probably thought they were under terrorist attack at that polling station.

http://wade.hu/smiley/kategoriak/%F6rd%F6gi_mosolyg%F3k/devil-smiley-024.gif

To most libs, I am a domestic terrorist :laugh2:

[red states rule]

Shoooooooooooooooo................... the whole entire "global warming" schtick was taken from "The Day After Tomorrow," in my considered opinion: life always imitates art, especially science.

Great movie, I've watched it several times.

Not reality, however.

We are talking about Al Bore

Here, for you entertainment, is one of Al's Greatest Hits


<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oZrhG2iT3H0&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oZrhG2iT3H0&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[mundame]

[quote=red states rule;234673]We are talking about Al Bore

Here, for you entertainment, is one of Al's Greatest Hits

Thanks, but they block YouTube where I work. http://macg.net/emoticons/angry5.gif

[red states rule]

[quote=red states rule;234673]We are talking about Al Bore

Here, for you entertainment, is one of Al's Greatest Hits

Thanks, but they block YouTube where I work. http://macg.net/emoticons/angry5.gif

I will send you a PM with the address. You have to watch it

[Joe Steel]

I'd like to see proof of that.

Start with this: Wind Energy Potential -- Top 20 U.S. States (http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Top_20_States.pdf)

"By contrast, the total amount of electricity that could potentially be generated from wind in the United States has been estimated at 10,777 billion kWh annually--more than twice the electricity generated in the U.S. today.

It's not what I said but it's in the ballpark.

[red states rule]

Start with this: Wind Energy Potential -- Top 20 U.S. States (http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Top_20_States.pdf)

"By contrast, the total amount of electricity that could potentially be generated from wind in the United States has been estimated at 10,777 billion kWh annually--more than twice the electricity generated in the U.S. today.

It's not what I said but it's in the ballpark.

and then the animal rights nuts whine about the stupid birds that fly into the blades of the turbins

Oil is the fuel we need. We know where it is, and we need to go and get it

[glockmail]

Start with this: Wind Energy Potential -- Top 20 U.S. States (http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Top_20_States.pdf)

"By contrast, the total amount of electricity that could potentially be generated from wind in the United States has been estimated at 10,777 billion kWh annually--more than twice the electricity generated in the U.S. today.

It's not what I said but it's in the ballpark. Interesting. However I have some quations:
1. Why hasn't it been done?
2. What is the downstream impact of having all that energy taken out of the weather system?
3. What would be the impact on migrating birds?

I'm all for wind power, but whenever its proposed, the enviro-nuts shoot it down.

[red states rule]

I'm all for wind power, but whenever its proposed, the enviro-nuts shoot it down.

Like Kennedy and Kerry who did not want their view from their beach front homes ruined

[glockmail]

Like Kennedy and Kerry who did not want their view from their beach front homes ruined Exactly. And they just shut one done in Boone, NC for the same reason.

Every year my son and I ski at Timberline, WV, and from the summit, across the valley, on a clear day you can see a huge wind farm on the opposite ridge line. Many times we’ve stopped to count the windmills. They are quite numerous and I’ve counted at least 50, but there may be more. Not once have I encountered a fellow skier who thought the site was ugly or a “blight on the landscape”.

Obviously “ruining the view” is just an excuse. This points to some hidden agenda of the environmental whackos.

[mundame]

Every year my son and I ski at Timberline, WV, and from the summit, across the valley, on a clear day you can see a huge wind farm on the opposite ridge line. Many times we’ve stopped to count the windmills. They are quite numerous and I’ve counted at least 50, but there may be more. Not once have I encountered a fellow skier who thought the site was ugly or a “blight on the landscape”.

Obviously “ruining the view” is just an excuse. This points to some hidden agenda of the environmental whackos.

There is a wind farm with giant turbines on a ridge in western Pennsylvania. There are only ten or so but they are fascinating to look at and consider. I agree, it's not obvious they are in any way a problem visually. The issue of what the underlying objections are is interesting --- I suspect there are a lot of leftists who just don't want people living modern. That simple. No cars, no electricity, and if they had their way, no PEOPLE.

It is true the world is badly overpopulated, but the U.S. isn't. I think this issue of too many people on Planet Earth is direly underdiscussed. So many people seem to want a way to blame this country ------ but that doesn't make sense, because we aren't the one overpopulated, and people keep trying to flood in here.

[red states rule]

I suspect there are a lot of leftists who just don't want people living modern. That simple. No cars, no electricity, and if they had their way, no PEOPLE.
.

But not the leading enviro wackos like Al Gore. They still have their energy sucking mansions, limos, and private jets

[glockmail]

There is a wind farm with giant turbines on a ridge in western Pennsylvania. There are only ten or so but they are fascinating to look at and consider. I agree, it's not obvious they are in any way a problem visually. The issue of what the underlying objections are is interesting --- I suspect there are a lot of leftists who just don't want people living modern. That simple. No cars, no electricity, and if they had their way, no PEOPLE.

It is true the world is badly overpopulated, but the U.S. isn't. I think this issue of too many people on Planet Earth is direly underdiscussed. So many people seem to want a way to blame this country ------ but that doesn't make sense, because we aren't the one overpopulated, and people keep trying to flood in here.
You hit on it. That don't want people, and if there must be people, they should be as dirty and shabby and uncomfortable as they are.

[red states rule]

You hit on it. That don't want people, and if there must be people, they should be as dirty and shabby and uncomfortable as they are.

But libs will exempt themselves from those living standards