Hamas leader offers truce if Israel withdraws from 1967 lands

[actsnoblemartin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_hamas_israel

y ALBERT AJI, Associated Press Writer 19 minutes ago

DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas says his Palestinian militant group is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it withdraws from all lands it seized in the 1967 war.
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Khaled Mashaal says he made the offer to former President Carter in talks on Saturday.

Mashaal says Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — an implicit acceptance that Israel would exist alongside that state.

But Mashaal says the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

[retiredman]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_hamas_israel

y ALBERT AJI, Associated Press Writer 19 minutes ago

DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas says his Palestinian militant group is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it withdraws from all lands it seized in the 1967 war.
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Khaled Mashaal says he made the offer to former President Carter in talks on Saturday.

Mashaal says Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — an implicit acceptance that Israel would exist alongside that state.

But Mashaal says the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

that is a non-starter. Israel will NEVER give up the Western Wall.

[Yurt]

But Mashaal says the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

this quote shows mfm knows very little about the ME

[retiredman]

this quote shows mfm knows very little about the ME

how would that be?

I know full well that many palestinians will never recognise Israel. That does not mean that their goal is a return to a regional muslim caliphate... That does not mean that their ultimate goal is NOT a palestinian state. And having a goal of a palestinian state does NOT mean they are not muslims.

And why, pray tell, are you so obsessed with proving me wrong about the middle east you little ambulance-chasing shyster punk?

[Yurt]

why are you so sensative about people debating you? seems anytime i debate you or show you are wrong, i am "obsessed" if you can't handle it, take some time off from the board. the world does not revolve around you, no matter how many times you think it does, it will not change reality.

how are those sermons coming?

[retiredman]

why are you so sensative about people debating you? seems anytime i debate you or show you are wrong, i am "obsessed" if you can't handle it, take some time off from the board. the world does not revolve around you, no matter how many times you think it does, it will not change reality.

how are those sermons coming?

you suggest that a hamas statement about never recognizing Israel somehow shows that I don't know what the fuck I am talking about regarding the middle east. Either back up that silly assertion of retract it. simple as that shyster.

[Trigg]

that is a non-starter. Israel will NEVER give up the Western Wall.

Why should they? The war was not started by them and THEY WON THE WAR.


Countries don't normally go around giving stuff back after they win...........

The muslim countries could offer the palistinians citizenship into their various countries. They don't though do they......nope instead they use them.

[retiredman]

Why should they? The war was not started by them and THEY WON THE WAR.


Countries don't normally go around giving stuff back after they win...........

The muslim countries could offer the palistinians citizenship into their various countries. They don't though do they......nope instead they use them.

I never suggested that they should.

but point of fact: Israel started shooting in the the '67 war. not the arabs.

[Yurt]

you suggest that a hamas statement about never recognizing Israel somehow shows that I don't know what the fuck I am talking about regarding the middle east. Either back up that silly assertion of retract it. simple as that shyster.

how can you have a truce with someone/thing/entity you don't recognize? it is obvious they do not want israel to exist, so as i said before, a "truce" is merely taking what land they can "for now"

it does nothing to prove your assertions that they "only" want a palestinian state, it is a false truce, meaningless, and for you to hang your hat on it is absurd and shows a lack of understanding the mindset of muslims who strongly believe that once the land is "muslims" it is always "muslim"

and if you claim they do not want a caliphate, bring your proof, for the desire of a caliphate is ultimate goal for muslims, to suggest otherwise shows ignorance.

its really nice to see how you continue to denigrate your father's profession by trying to insult me. why don't you try just debating or discussing instead of your pathetic childish insults...

[Yurt]

I never suggested that they should.

but point of fact: Israel started shooting in the the '67 war. not the arabs.

so if you point a gun to my head, but i happen to shoot first, i started it?

[retiredman]

so if you point a gun to my head, but i happen to shoot first, i started it?

I stated a point of fact: do you care to dispute it or not?

[retiredman]

how can you have a truce with someone/thing/entity you don't recognize? it is obvious they do not want israel to exist, so as i said before, a "truce" is merely taking what land they can "for now"

it does nothing to prove your assertions that they "only" want a palestinian state, it is a false truce, meaningless, and for you to hang your hat on it is absurd and shows a lack of understanding the mindset of muslims who strongly believe that once the land is "muslims" it is always "muslim"

and if you claim they do not want a caliphate, bring your proof, for the desire of a caliphate is ultimate goal for muslims, to suggest otherwise shows ignorance.

its really nice to see how you continue to denigrate your father's profession by trying to insult me. why don't you try just debating or discussing instead of your pathetic childish insults...

why do you think that the concept of a palestinian state requires the concurrent existence of Israel?

a caliphate is certainly not the goal of nasserites, or baathists or alawites. nationalism is a more prevalent ideology in the middle east that radical extremism.

[Gaffer]

I never suggested that they should.

but point of fact: Israel started shooting in the the '67 war. not the arabs.

The syrians, the jordanians, the iraqis, the sauds and egypt were all massing on Israels border for a war. Israel struck egypt first to knock out their air power. They were attacked on all fronts by the combined forces of the arabs. But I guess with all your pal friends you only read the arab version of history.

[Yurt]

why do you think that the concept of a palestinian state requires the concurrent existence of Israel?

a caliphate is certainly not the goal of nasserites, or baathists or alawites. nationalism is a more prevalent ideology in the middle east that radical extremism.

by not recognizing israel, this is tantamount to saying they want isreal wiped off the map. how can you have a truce with someone (as asked before) you don't recognize? so you promise to have a truce with me, yet you don't recognize that i even exist....

baathists are not an islamic movement, surely you know at least that much

[manu1959]

I stated a point of fact: do you care to dispute it or not?

i say the arabs provoked the attack and deservered what they got.......

May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in 1957 as an international "guarantee" of safety for Israel--from the Sinai peninsula. The UN meekly obeys; the United States and Britain fail to rouse the Security Council to take action.

May 15: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks roll into the Sinai. World community does nothing.

May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."

May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."

May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")

May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."

May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."

May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.

My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."

May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."

June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.

http://www.peacefaq.com/sixdaywar.html

[Yurt]

I stated a point of fact: do you care to dispute it or not?

care to answer my question or not?

[retiredman]

by not recognizing israel, this is tantamount to saying they want isreal wiped off the map. how can you have a truce with someone (as asked before) you don't recognize? so you promise to have a truce with me, yet you don't recognize that i even exist....

baathists are not an islamic movement, surely you know at least that much

and just because they want Israel wiped off the map, how does that mean that they do not have, as their goal, a palestinian state and not a regional islamic caliphate from Spain to India?

And are you suggesting that the only political movements and philosophies that true muslims can belong to are islamic movements? Are you suggesting that any arab muslim who was a member of a ba'athist party is somehow not a true muslim?

[manu1959]

and just because they want Israel wiped off the map, how does that mean that they do not have, as their goal, a palestinian state and not a regional islamic caliphate from Spain to India?

And are you suggesting that the only political movements and philosophies that true muslims can belong to are islamic movements? Are you suggesting that any arab muslim who was a member of a ba'athist party is somehow not a true muslim?

why doesn't jordan or syria or egypt give the palis a piece of land and create a state for them.....

[Yurt]

and just because they want Israel wiped off the map, how does that mean that they do not have, as their goal, a palestinian state and not a regional islamic caliphate from Spain to India?

And are you suggesting that the only political movements and philosophies that true muslims can belong to are islamic movements? Are you suggesting that any arab muslim who was a member of a ba'athist party is somehow not a true muslim?

it is mandetory for muslims to want/seek a caliphate. the baathist party is secular mfm, hence, not islamic. its members may or may not be islamic, but the party/movement itself is not an islamic one.

how can you have a truce with someone you don't recognize? is there a reason you keep avoiding this question?

[retiredman]

I have never said anything good or in any way legitimizing Hamas/s truce offer. I have merely stated that many arabs, many muslims are nationalist in their political beliefs and do not yearn for a return to a theocratic caliphate from Spain to India. There is nothing mutually exclusive about wanting No Israel and wanting an Palestinian state.

What would you say the percentage of ba'athists in Syria and Iraq are that are NOT muslims? :lol:

[Yurt]

I have never said anything good or in any way legitimizing Hamas/s truce offer. I have merely stated that many arabs, many muslims are nationalist in their political beliefs and do not yearn for a return to a theocratic caliphate from Spain to India. There is nothing mutually exclusive about wanting No Israel and wanting an Palestinian state.

What would you say the percentage of ba'athists in Syria and Iraq are that are NOT muslims? :lol:

i see you are still running from my question...typical.

as to your last, get some education:

The Arab Socialist Ba'th Party (also spelled Baath or Ba'ath; Arabic: حزب البعث العربي الاشتراكي) was founded in Damascus in the 1940s as the original secular Arab nationalist movement, to combat Western colonial rule.

secular and islam DO NOT mix genius, it is against the very precepts of islam, then again, all your info is from decades ago from nationalists who claim to be islamic.

[retiredman]

i see you are still running from my question...typical.

as to your last, get some education:

The Arab Socialist Ba'th Party (also spelled Baath or Ba'ath; Arabic: حزب البعث العربي الاشتراكي) was founded in Damascus in the 1940s as the original secular Arab nationalist movement, to combat Western colonial rule.

secular and islam DO NOT mix genius, it is against the very precepts of islam, then again, all your info is from decades ago from nationalists who claim to be islamic.

and your information is from....where? counselor?


so...you are saying that the overwhelming majority of ba'athists are not muslims? What do you think they are? atheists? :laugh2: Oddly enough, many muslims can -and do - separate church and state just like we can... as evidenced by the ba'athist party!

And I am "running" from nothing. I've got no love for Hamas. I think they are assholes. I have never legitimized their truce offer or put any stock in it. I merely point out that the goal of palestinian liberation organizations is a palestinian state, not a global caliphate.

[actsnoblemartin]

I think a muslim caliphate would be the 2nd goal of the p.l.o.

they hate jews, and christians, and not muslims

just like al queda does, now if all jews were gone, would they stay regional, and become peace loving hippies or go after non muslims abroad is the question


and your information is from....where? counselor?


so...you are saying that the overwhelming majority of ba'athists are not muslims? What do you think they are? atheists? :laugh2: Oddly enough, many muslims can -and do - separate church and state just like we can... as evidenced by the ba'athist party!

And I am "running" from nothing. I've got no love for Hamas. I think they are assholes. I have never legitimized their truce offer or put any stock in it. I merely point out that the goal of palestinian liberation organizations is a palestinian state, not a global caliphate.

[Gaffer]

and your information is from....where? counselor?


so...you are saying that the overwhelming majority of ba'athists are not muslims? What do you think they are? atheists? :laugh2: Oddly enough, many muslims can -and do - separate church and state just like we can... as evidenced by the ba'athist party!

And I am "running" from nothing. I've got no love for Hamas. I think they are assholes. I have never legitimized their truce offer or put any stock in it. I merely point out that the goal of palestinian liberation organizations is a palestinian state, not a global caliphate.

There are two pal liberation organizations, fatah and hamas. Neither are nationalistic. Neither has any interest in a state. They just want to kill all the jews. One wants to be slow, methodical and devious, the other wants to make all out attacks. There are nationalists among the arabs but they are a minority and usually out for themselves, like any other politician. And even the nationalists use islam for control of the people.

Islam has proved to be a very effective means of controlling the population. Even better than the catholics. They are taught from birth to hate and kill or go to hell. Even saddam used islam for his purposes.

hamas is an islamist organization affiliated with AQ. You don't get people blowing themselves up for political or nationalist goals. They do it for a reward in the afterlife.

The goal of islam is a global caliphate. And any means necessary to achieve it will be done. Things are going to get a lot hotter in the future as islam gets its leverage.

[typomaniac]

What does Israel have to gain from unilaterally making concessions to a group that won't even recognize them?

Most palestinians don't have the first clue about what negotiation means.

[Yurt]

and your information is from....where? counselor?


so...you are saying that the overwhelming majority of ba'athists are not muslims? What do you think they are? atheists? :laugh2: Oddly enough, many muslims can -and do - separate church and state just like we can... as evidenced by the ba'athist party!

And I am "running" from nothing. I've got no love for Hamas. I think they are assholes. I have never legitimized their truce offer or put any stock in it. I merely point out that the goal of palestinian liberation organizations is a palestinian state, not a global caliphate.

are you actually denying that the baathist movement is secular? you used their offer of a "truce" as proof they only want a nation state - palestine. if the truce is bull, where do you get YOUR proof "preacher"?

if you don't know that there is no seperation of church in state in Islam, you are more ignorant than i thought. do you even know what a caliphate is? do you even know that the quran details the muslim life, including the government? do you know that the sunnah further encompasses their daily life, including the government. their sharia law is based almost solely on the quran and sunnah, very little from scholars that interpret the quran and sunnah to situations not exactly covered in the sunnah and quran.

i strongly suggest you actually read up on islam before trying to debate your mamby pamby points that have no basis in fact or reality.

[retiredman]

are you actually denying that the baathist movement is secular? you used their offer of a "truce" as proof they only want a nation state - palestine. if the truce is bull, where do you get YOUR proof "preacher"?

if you don't know that there is no seperation of church in state in Islam, you are more ignorant than i thought. do you even know what a caliphate is? do you even know that the quran details the muslim life, including the government? do you know that the sunnah further encompasses their daily life, including the government. their sharia law is based almost solely on the quran and sunnah, very little from scholars that interpret the quran and sunnah to situations not exactly covered in the sunnah and quran.

i strongly suggest you actually read up on islam before trying to debate your mamby pamby points that have no basis in fact or reality.


of COURSE I am not denying that the ba'athist movement is secular. Are YOU denying that the vast majority of ba'athists are muslims?

WHo do you think baathists are? atheists?

I used Hamas' offer of a truce as nothing of the sort. I merely point out that there are many muslims - including Hamas- who have nationalist aims, not theocratic, global caliphate aims. Seeking a palestinian state where Israel now exists is different that seeking a muslim caliphate from Spain to India.

[Yurt]

of COURSE I am not denying that the ba'athist movement is secular. Are YOU denying that the vast majority of ba'athists are muslims?

WHo do you think baathists are? atheists?

I used Hamas' offer of a truce as nothing of the sort. I merely point out that there are many muslims - including Hamas- who have nationalist aims, not theocratic, global caliphate aims. Seeking a palestinian state where Israel now exists is different that seeking a muslim caliphate from Spain to India.

say what? so just because the members may or may not be mostly muslim, that translates into the baathists being a "muslim" party when the party's core platform is secular? thats the strangest logic i have ever seen. so then you must agree that the united states government is not and should not be secular because most members are christian.

[retiredman]

say what? so just because the members may or may not be mostly muslim, that translates into the baathists being a "muslim" party when the party's core platform is secular? thats the strangest logic i have ever seen. so then you must agree that the united states government is not and should not be secular because most members are christian.

the ba'ath party is a party made up almost entirely of muslims. Do you deny that?

the aims of the baathist party are nationalist, and pan-arabist, and have NOTHING to do with calipahates. Muslims can and do participate in political organizations whose aspirations are nationalist and secular. That does not make those party members less muslim.... it merely makes YOUR idiotic argument that all muslims believe in a caliphate and do not have nationalist aspirations totally silly, which is what I have said all along.

Hamas is a political party with a nationalist agenda. They want a palestinian state. Hamas is made up nearly entirely of muslims. They are fighting for Palestine, not a global caliphate. That does not make then less than true muslims.

are you really this stupid or is it an act?

[Yurt]

the ba'ath party is a party made up almost entirely of muslims. Do you deny that?

the aims of the baathist party are nationalist, and pan-arabist, and have NOTHING to do with calipahates. Muslims can and do participate in political organizations whose aspirations are nationalist and secular. That does not make those party members less muslim.... it merely makes YOUR idiotic argument that all muslims believe in a caliphate and do not have nationalist aspirations totally silly, which is what I have said all along.

Hamas is a political party with a nationalist agenda. They want a palestinian state. Hamas is made up nearly entirely of muslims. They are fighting for Palestine, not a global caliphate. That does not make then less than true muslims.

are you really this stupid or is it an act?

if you refuse to read the quran and sunnah which mandates a caliphate and you refuse to acknowledge that islam is a complete religion, both spiritually and here on earth, e.g., government, then you are deluded. why do you think so few muslims cared that we took down saddam? because he was baathist. if he had a run an islamic government, i guarantee you muslims would not have stood for it.

your ignorance is appalling. so, again, america must not be secular according to your logic.

[retiredman]

if you refuse to read the quran and sunnah which mandates a caliphate and you refuse to acknowledge that islam is a complete religion, both spiritually and here on earth, e.g., government, then you are deluded. why do you think so few muslims cared that we took down saddam? because he was baathist. if he had a run an islamic government, i guarantee you muslims would not have stood for it.

your ignorance is appalling. so, again, america must not be secular according to your logic.

Is secular goverment only the product of atheists? Or can a predominately Christian nation - like Ireland, for example - create a secular government?

Do you honestly feel that Syrians or Egyptians or Lebanese muslims all strive to give up their nationalist identities, overthrow their governments, abolish their nation states, and form a caliphate?

and you call ME deluded??? :laugh2:

[Yurt]

Is secular goverment only the product of atheists? Or can a predominately Christian nation - like Ireland, for example - create a secular government?

Do you honestly feel that Syrians or Egyptians or Lebanese muslims all strive to give up their nationalist identities, overthrow their governments, abolish their nation states, and form a caliphate?

and you call ME deluded??? :laugh2:

i never said all, try honing your reading comprehension skills. i said it is their duty, i never said they all want or fulfill their duty. like any religion, adherents are not perfect. i, again, strongly suggest you read the quran and sunnah because it is apparent you know very little about islam.

[retiredman]

i never said all, try honing your reading comprehension skills. i said it is their duty, i never said they all want or fulfill their duty. like any religion, adherents are not perfect. i, again, strongly suggest you read the quran and sunnah because it is apparent you know very little about islam.

it is apparent your knowledge of islam is less than practical. In the real world of Islam, nationalist ideals hold sway. that's a fact.

but how would you know? you have never been anywhere NEAR the real Islamic world.

[Yurt]

it is apparent your knowledge of islam is less than practical. In the real world of Islam, nationalist ideals hold sway. that's a fact.

but how would you know? you have never been anywhere NEAR the real Islamic world.

you're funny. the "real" world of islam? what a joke, you won't even bother to read the quran and sunnah to inform you of islam, you would rather rely on decades old alleged conversations that alleged muslims had with you. you should be a comedian. you obviously have no clue about imadejihad's <-- play on words mfm, i have to spell things out for you -- goal of the 12th imam. so, are you somehow going to tell me that iran is nationalistic?

its funny that you would argue that the people are nationalistic as proof that islam is nationalistic. actually, its sad and shows your voracious inability to learn the facts instead of relying on antiquated alleged conversations. you would probably say christianity is such and such after talking with a 1000 members instead of actually reading the bible.

[retiredman]

you're funny. the "real" world of islam? what a joke, you won't even bother to read the quran and sunnah to inform you of islam, you would rather rely on decades old alleged conversations that alleged muslims had with you. you should be a comedian. you obviously have no clue about imadejihad's <-- play on words mfm, i have to spell things out for you -- goal of the 12th imam. so, are you somehow going to tell me that iran is nationalistic?

its funny that you would argue that the people are nationalistic as proof that islam is nationalistic. actually, its sad and shows your voracious inability to learn the facts instead of relying on antiquated alleged conversations. you would probably say christianity is such and such after talking with a 1000 members instead of actually reading the bible.

I have NEVER said that Islam is nationalistic anymore than I have said that Christianity is nationalistic.

I HAVE said that Lebanese muslims are proud to be Lebanese and there is no overriding desire on the part of Lebanese muslims to abandon their national identity and become part of a global muslim theocratic caliphate. I HAVE said that Syrian muslims are proud to be Syrians and there is no overriding desire on the part of Syrian muslims to abandon their national identity and become part of a global muslim theocratic caliphate I HAVE said that Jordanian muslims are proud to be Jordanians and there is no overriding desire on the part of Jordanian muslims to abandon their national identity and become part of a global muslim theocratic caliphate. I HAVE said that Egyptian muslims are proud to be Egyptian and there is no overriding desire on the part of Egyptian muslims to abandon their national identity and become part of a global muslim theocratic caliphate.

I have said that all of those nationalistic muslims in the middle east still consider themselves to be muslims and relatively devout ones at that.... yet they all have a great deal of national pride and would prefer to maintain it and very few of them are interested in abandoning their national identity or their relatively secular governments for a islamic theocratic caliphate..