What really killed Christ?

[Yurt]

Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

[retiredman]

you are such a petulant little baby:lol:

[Yurt]

you are such a petulant little baby:lol:

being called a "christ killer" is no laughing matter.... you are telling me that i killed the most wonderful being....

i'm sure you would "laugh" if i told you that you killed your mother....

now, care to address the thread....

[retiredman]

being called a "christ killer" is no laughing matter.... you are telling me that i killed the most wonderful being....

i'm sure you would "laugh" if i told you that you killed your mother....

now, care to address the thread....

I did address the thread. you are a whiny petulant little child, and certainly ain't no attorney.:laugh2:

[Yurt]

you claimed i am a christ killer. care to back that up? care to debate that? or you going to continue "preaching" ....

[Kathianne]

you are such a petulant little baby:lol:

and with what you posted you are acting as if you are a faux Christian.

[avatar4321]

Christ gave up His life willingly. He had that ability. He had a mortal mother who gave Him the power to die and an Imortal Father who gave Him the power to lay it down when He chose.

But if you insist on saying some group of people killed Christ, then alright. I guess if blame has to be assigned it would be to the class of people known as sinners.

[avatar4321]

I did address the thread. you are a whiny petulant little child, and certainly ain't no attorney.:laugh2:

Glad to see your very articulate and intelligent posts... :lame2:

[retiredman]

you claimed i am a christ killer. care to back that up? care to debate that? or you going to continue "preaching" ....

I know you didn't actually kill Christ. I know that you are a blameless, super swell guy who never insults anyone in any fashion and I was just WAY out of line pulling your chain that way. Gosh...can you ever forgive me?

Clearly, the Jewish authorities, in conjunction with the Roman civil authorities, and the willing if not eager acquiescence of the Jewish population of Jerusalem - and not YURT - crucified Christ. But it was, as some have already said, nothing that He did not allow to happen. He did, however, have doubts as to the path His father had set Him upon and expressed those doubts in the Garden of Gethsemane. The next day, however, it was His Father's will that He fulfilled.

[Gaffer]

If it was all preordained, then god killed christ. Everyone else were just tools. I just love how so many people want to blame someone for something that no one but god and christ really had any say in. Seen any good passion plays recently mfm? They are real inspiring for jew haters. I'm not even a christian and I can see the hypocrisy in you. Jesus would be so proud of you. As a dhimi maybe you can start being a guess speaker in your local mosque. They always welcome hate speech and jew haters.

[My Winter Storm]

Jesus, if he indeed did exist, killed himself. He allowed himself to be beaten, and crucified. He chose not to fight, when he had every opportunity to.
In a way, I guess, he commited suicide.

[Gaffer]

Jesus, if he indeed did exist, killed himself. He allowed himself to be beaten, and crucified. He chose not to fight, when he had every opportunity to.
In a way, I guess, he commited suicide.

In a sense that's true.

[Yurt]

I know you didn't actually kill Christ. I know that you are a blameless, super swell guy who never insults anyone in any fashion and I was just WAY out of line pulling your chain that way. Gosh...can you ever forgive me?

Clearly, the Jewish authorities, in conjunction with the Roman civil authorities, and the willing if not eager acquiescence of the Jewish population of Jerusalem - and not YURT - crucified Christ. But it was, as some have already said, nothing that He did not allow to happen. He did, however, have doubts as to the path His father had set Him upon and expressed those doubts in the Garden of Gethsemane. The next day, however, it was His Father's will that He fulfilled.

so are you rescinding your petulant and childish remark or are you being sarcarstic?

so now, it is not only my "kin" but the roman civil authorities....LOL...make up your mind "preacher"

as gaffer, avi and myself pointed out, it was not the jews that "killed" Christ, it was God's plan for our redemption. its truly sad you think i am petulant for wanting to debate and defend your insult that I, due to my lineage, am a "christ killer." that is a serious thing that no christian thinks funny nor lighthearted "instulting." it again shows that you are not who you say you are.

[Abbey Marie]

Jesus, if he indeed did exist, killed himself. He allowed himself to be beaten, and crucified. He chose not to fight, when he had every opportunity to.
In a way, I guess, he commited suicide.

You doubt that Christ exited?! How about Pontius Pilate? Did he exist? Alexander the Great? Cleopatra? Or is Christ the only historical figure you doubt?

[retiredman]

so are you rescinding your petulant and childish remark or are you being sarcarstic?

so now, it is not only my "kin" but the roman civil authorities....LOL...make up your mind "preacher"

as gaffer, avi and myself pointed out, it was not the jews that "killed" Christ, it was God's plan for our redemption. its truly sad you think i am petulant for wanting to debate and defend your insult that I, due to my lineage, am a "christ killer." that is a serious thing that no christian thinks funny nor lighthearted "instulting." it again shows that you are not who you say you are.


As I said, I know you didn't actually kill Christ. I know that you are a blameless, super swell guy who never insults anyone in any fashion - certainly not ME - and I was just WAY out of line pulling your chain that way.

and if you read my second paragraph, I think I said that his crucifixion "was nothing that He did not allow to happen. He did, however, have doubts as to the path His father had set Him upon and expressed those doubts in the Garden of Gethsemane. The next day, however, it was His Father's will that He fulfilled."


and I really need to say that, even though you are a blameless super swell guy, you really have no way of knowing that I am not who I say I am. Come to think of it, blameless super swell guys probably ought not to besmirch others even while seeking apologies from them.

[Yurt]

I know you didn't actually kill Christ. I know that you are a blameless, super swell guy who never insults anyone in any fashion and I was just WAY out of line pulling your chain that way. Gosh...can you ever forgive me?

Clearly, the Jewish authorities, in conjunction with the Roman civil authorities, and the willing if not eager acquiescence of the Jewish population of Jerusalem - and not YURT - crucified Christ. But it was, as some have already said, nothing that He did not allow to happen. He did, however, have doubts as to the path His father had set Him upon and expressed those doubts in the Garden of Gethsemane. The next day, however, it was His Father's will that He fulfilled.


As I said, I know you didn't actually kill Christ. I know that you are a blameless, super swell guy who never insults anyone in any fashion - certainly not ME - and I was just WAY out of line pulling your chain that way.

and if you read my second paragraph, I think I said that his crucifixion "was nothing that He did not allow to happen. He did, however, have doubts as to the path His father had set Him upon and expressed those doubts in the Garden of Gethsemane. The next day, however, it was His Father's will that He fulfilled."


and I really need to say that, even though you are a blameless super swell guy, you really have no way of knowing that I am not who I say I am. Come to think of it, blameless super swell guys probably ought not to besmirch others even while seeking apologies from them.

and as i said....i could not tell if you were being sarcastic, given your "blameless super swell guy" schtick... i really don't need your apology, nor do i want it, i wanted you to rescind your error...save your apology for private prayer

[retiredman]

and as i said....i could not tell if you were being sarcastic, given your "blameless super swell guy" schtick... i really don't need your apology, nor do i want it, i wanted you to rescind your error...save your apology for private prayer

oh but you HAVE it. and thanks, but I really don't need any help creating my list of things to pray to God about tonight, or any other night, for that matter. Being a blameless super swell guy like you are who never insults anyone - certainly not ME - I am sure you'll understand my wishes in that regard. thanks.

oh...and you remember how I used to put "counselor" in quotes and that would bug you? maybe in one of your extraordinarily super swell blameless moments, you might consider how that shoe might fit.... just a thought....I realize that super swell guys like you must have a huge number of charitable and super swell things to contemplate...but if you get a chance, maybe just ponder that for a moment - in between brilliantly arguing cases before the highest court and keeping the world safe from godless liberals.

[Yurt]

oh but you HAVE it. and thanks, but I really don't need any help creating my list of things to pray to God about tonight, or any other night, for that matter. Being a blameless super swell guy like you are who never insults anyone - certainly not ME - I am sure you'll understand my wishes in that regard. thanks.

oh...and you remember how I used to put "counselor" in quotes and that would bug you? maybe in one of your extraordinarily super swell blameless moments, you might consider how that shoe might fit.... just a thought....I realize that super swell guys like you must have a huge number of charitable and super swell things to contemplate...but if you get a chance, maybe just ponder that for a moment - in between brilliantly arguing cases before the highest court and keeping the world safe from godless liberals.

how sincere :lame2:

sleep tight ... holiness ... its rather sad, i don't even have to say anything for you to make a complete fool out of yourself...

[retiredman]

how sincere :lame2:

sleep tight ... holiness ... its rather sad, i don't even have to say anything for you to make a complete fool out of yourself...

I have apologized on several different occasions here. I have stated that you are utterly blameless and that you never insult anyone and that I was terribly at fault for trying to get a rise out of someone as pristine as you. I am not sure what else you want me to say.

[My Winter Storm]

You doubt that Christ exited?! How about Pontius Pilate? Did he exist? Alexander the Great? Cleopatra? Or is Christ the only historical figure you doubt?

Okay, well if there is documented proof that Jesus did exist, then I guess I cannpt dispute that fact. But I do not believe he is the person that religion makes him out to be. I don't believe he could heal people, or walk on water, or anything like that, though.

[Abbey Marie]

Okay, well if there is documented proof that Jesus did exist, then I guess I cannpt dispute that fact. But I do not believe he is the person that religion makes him out to be. I don't believe he could heal people, or walk on water, or anything like that, though.

Fair enough. It is your choice to believe or not as you see fit.

Just curious though, given all of his bold and absolute statements about who he was, his Father, everlasting life, etc., do you think he was insane, or do you think he was a liar?

[Hagbard Celine]

Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

JUDEN!!!!!:eek:

Don't worry about mfm. Everybody knows what killed Christ: Hotpockets and Sugarfree Rockstar Energy Drinks.

[theHawk]

Don't worry about mfm. Everybody knows what killed Christ: Hotpockets and Sugarfree Rockstar Energy Drinks.

No, thats what killed MFM's brain cells.

[actsnoblemartin]

My understanding is that christ was sent to die for our sins, now im not a christian, but i have christian friends and have listened to christian sermons at times.


Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

[hjmick]

So, just to be clear, Yurt had nothing to do with the death of Jesus? ;)

[Yurt]

;)
So, just to be clear, Yurt had nothing to do with the death of Jesus? ;)

and i'm a
blameless super swell guy ;)

[manu1959]

Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

hate to tell ya dude but if your mum ain't jewish you ain't jewish.....

christ was killed by the romans ...... they blamed on the jews .....

[actsnoblemartin]

That is exactly right.


hate to tell ya dude but if your mum ain't jewish you ain't jewish.....

christ was killed by the romans ...... they blamed on the jews .....

[glockmail]

Jesus, if he indeed did exist, killed himself. He allowed himself to be beaten, and crucified. He chose not to fight, when he had every opportunity to.
In a way, I guess, he commited suicide.


In a sense that's true.

What? How the hell is that true? That's nothing more than bullshit.

Sharon states "if" Christ existed, therefore acknowledging her atheism. Then she says that He "allowed [H]imself to be beaten, and crucified". Did the two men who were crucified next to Him also allow themselves to be beaten and crucified? Obviously not. Was Jesus supposed to use Divine intervention to stop His crucifixion? If that’s what Sharon thinks, then she’s not an atheist.

Reality to Sharon: either you’re an atheist or not. You can’t argue both sides.

[Hagbard Celine]

What? How the hell is that true? That's nothing more than bullshit.

Sharon states "if" Christ existed, therefore acknowledging her atheism. Then she says that He "allowed [H]imself to be beaten, and crucified". Did the two men who were crucified next to Him also allow themselves to be beaten and crucified? Obviously not. Was Jesus supposed to use Divine intervention to stop His crucifixion? If that’s what Sharon thinks, then she’s not an atheist.

Reality to Sharon: either you’re an atheist or not. You can’t argue both sides.

Yes you can. It IS possible to see more than one side of an issue. And they're both right. If Jesus was endowed with miraculous powers, he could've avoided his death. Hell, he could've avoided his death if he'd hopped on a donkey and booked-it to another neighborhood. He willingly sacrificed his life. So technically he committed suicide.

[manu1959]

Yes you can. It IS possible to see more than one side of an issue. And they're both right. If Jesus was endowed with miraculous powers, he could've avoided his death. Hell, he could've avoided his death if he'd hopped on a donkey and booked-it to another neighborhood. He willingly sacrificed his life. So technically he committed suicide.

maybe god stopped him from using his magci powers....thus god committed murder.....


i am so going to hell

[Abbey Marie]

Yes you can. It IS possible to see more than one side of an issue. And they're both right. If Jesus was endowed with miraculous powers, he could've avoided his death. Hell, he could've avoided his death if he'd hopped on a donkey and booked-it to another neighborhood. He willingly sacrificed his life. So technically he committed suicide.

By your logic, any soldier who volunteers for infantry duty during war time and does not desert, is technically committing suicide as well.

[gabosaurus]

One of the stupidest, least relevant threads ever. Get over it.

[manu1959]

One of the stupidest, least relevant threads ever. Get over it.

"stupidest" is not a word.....

[Yurt]

hate to tell ya dude but if your mum ain't jewish you ain't jewish.....

christ was killed by the romans ...... they blamed on the jews .....

very true. i have told MFM that about a half a dozen times in the past, he knows that very well. that is why i made the distinction and mentioned my father alone. you're right though, it needed to be addressed again.


One of the stupidest, least relevant threads ever. Get over it.

congrats on the "relevant" post....

[My Winter Storm]

Fair enough. It is your choice to believe or not as you see fit.

Just curious though, given all of his bold and absolute statements about who he was, his Father, everlasting life, etc., do you think he was insane, or do you think he was a liar?

I don't know. I mean, people often say things they eithor don't mean, or that they believe. Perhaps Jesus was the same.
He likely did believe everything he said, but I don't think it was true. I don't know if he was insane...I imagine he was perfectly sane, just he said some things that weren't true, although he believed they were.

[My Winter Storm]

By your logic, any soldier who volunteers for infantry duty during war time and does not desert, is technically committing suicide as well.

In a way. People go to war and they know there is a possibility they will be killed, but it isn't certain. Jesus was certain he would die, and did nothing to stop it, I guess because he thought dying would save mankind, he thought it was the right thing to do, or something like that.

[gabosaurus]

Jesus was one of history's most important liberal troublemakers. He bucked the system and died because of it.
And what is this about the Jews "killing" Jesus? Wasn't he convicted and crucified by the Romans? I doubt any of them were Jewish.

As the wise philosopher Kinky Friedman once said "they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore."

[Dilloduck]

In a way. People go to war and they know there is a possibility they will be killed, but it isn't certain. Jesus was certain he would die, and did nothing to stop it, I guess because he thought dying would save mankind, he thought it was the right thing to do, or something like that.

Your missing the point---body died--soul didnt--soul is more important

[Dilloduck]

oops

[glockmail]

I don't know. I mean, people often say things they eithor don't mean, or that they believe. Perhaps Jesus was the same.
He likely did believe everything he said, but I don't think it was true. I don't know if he was insane...I imagine he was perfectly sane, just he said some things that weren't true, although he believed they were.

So how do you explain the four separate eyewitness accounts that have been reviewed and debated over by scholars, then accepted in the Bible as authentic? I'm referring of course to the Gospels.

[manu1959]

I don't know. I mean, people often say things they eithor don't mean, or that they believe. Perhaps Jesus was the same.
He likely did believe everything he said, but I don't think it was true. I don't know if he was insane...I imagine he was perfectly sane, just he said some things that weren't true, although he believed they were.

really.....like what

[Dilloduck]

Jesus was one of history's most important liberal troublemakers. He bucked the system and died because of it.
And what is this about the Jews "killing" Jesus? Wasn't he convicted and crucified by the Romans? I doubt any of them were Jewish.

As the wise philosopher Kinky Friedman once said "they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore."

If you insist on calling yourself a Christian, please get your facts straight.

[My Winter Storm]

So how do you explain the four separate eyewitness accounts that have been reviewed and debated over by scholars, then accepted in the Bible as authentic? I'm referring of course to the Gospels.

People can see what they want to believe - even you know that.

[Dilloduck]

People can see what they want to believe - even you know that.

and people can't see what they don't want to see---so what ?

[My Winter Storm]

really.....like what

I don't know, maybe that he thought he could make blind people see, and crippled people walk? Maybe he said he could walk on water? Maybe he actually believed he could, I don't know, I just don't believe it.

[My Winter Storm]

and people can't see what they don't want to see---so what ?

My point is that perhaps these people wanted to believe that Jesus could do all these wonderful things, and claimed that he could, just because they wanted it to be true?

[avatar4321]

Jesus was one of history's most important liberal troublemakers. He bucked the system and died because of it.
And what is this about the Jews "killing" Jesus? Wasn't he convicted and crucified by the Romans? I doubt any of them were Jewish.

As the wise philosopher Kinky Friedman once said "they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore."

actually, he didnt buck the system. He restored it. The leaders were corrupting the faith, he returned it to how it was originally.

I know youd like to think that Christ favored your idealogy. but He didnt.

[Dilloduck]

My point is that perhaps these people wanted to believe that Jesus could do all these wonderful things, and claimed that he could, just because they wanted it to be true?

My point is maybe you don't believe because you don't want to think outside your box.

[manu1959]

I don't know, maybe that he thought he could make blind people see, and crippled people walk? Maybe he said he could walk on water? Maybe he actually believed he could, I don't know, I just don't believe it.

so because you don't believe does that mean it did not happen.....further i know of no text written by jesus which claims what you allege......

[My Winter Storm]

My point is maybe you don't believe because you don't want to think outside your box.

My point is that I don't believe it because I am not religious, and no one else out there can cure cancer just by touching someone - our doctors can't. No one else can walk on water, so why should I believe that Jesus did? Ever heard of an optical illusion?
I don't believe it because to me it sounds like fantasy.

[My Winter Storm]

so because you don't believe does that mean it did not happen.....further i know of no text written by jesus which claims what you allege......

I am not saying there is such a text. But because no one else can do the things he could supposedly do, because doctors cannot heal people just by touching them, I don't believe Jesus did.
You are free to believe what you want to believe, as am I.

[Yurt]

My point is that I don't believe it because I am not religious, and no one else out there can cure cancer just by touching someone - our doctors can't. No one else can walk on water, so why should I believe that Jesus did? Ever heard of an optical illusion?
I don't believe it because to me it sounds like fantasy.

do you believe in the civil war occurred?

[Dilloduck]

My point is that I don't believe it because I am not religious, and no one else out there can cure cancer just by touching someone - our doctors can't. No one else can walk on water, so why should I believe that Jesus did? Ever heard of an optical illusion?
I don't believe it because to me it sounds like fantasy.

You ever heard of symbolism?

[manu1959]

I am not saying there is such a text. But because no one else can do the things he could supposedly do, because doctors cannot heal people just by touching them, I don't believe Jesus did.
You are free to believe what you want to believe, as am I.

why do you feel compelled to tear down what others believe......if i can teach you to see without eyes or walk without legs......or live with cancer would you believe then......

[My Winter Storm]

why do you feel compelled to tear down what others believe......if i can teach you to see without eyes or walk without legs......or live with cancer would you believe then......

I am not intent on tearing down what you believe - but this is a debate forum, and this is my opinion. I am certainly not trying to tell you that you shouldn't believe in anything.

[My Winter Storm]

do you believe in the civil war occurred?

The Civil War was different, wars happen, people don't walk on water everyday, though.

None of you were there when all this supposedy happened, right? So it is just your faith that makes you believe, right? Even if you have no way of proving it, I can't disprove it, you and I believe what we believe. I don't believe in your faith, so obviously I am not going to believe the same things you do. :)

[manu1959]

I am not intent on tearing down what you believe - but this is a debate forum, and this is my opinion. I am certainly not trying to tell you that you shouldn't believe in anything.

is not the point of debate to tear down the other side and compell them to believe in your belief.....

[Yurt]

The Civil War was different, wars happen, people don't walk on water everyday, though.

None of you were there when all this supposedy happened, right? So it is just your faith that makes you believe, right? Even if you have no way of proving it, I can't disprove it, you and I believe what we believe. I don't believe in your faith, so obviously I am not going to believe the same things you do. :)

you still did not see it, you only believe what other have told you.

just because something doesn't happen every day, does not mean it did not happen. would you agree?

[manu1959]

The Civil War was different, wars happen, people don't walk on water everyday, though.

None of you were there when all this supposedy happened, right? So it is just your faith that makes you believe, right? Even if you have no way of proving it, I can't disprove it, you and I believe what we believe. I don't believe in your faith, so obviously I am not going to believe the same things you do. :)

you have no proof the civil war happened only books.....you take it on faith the books are true....

[glockmail]

People can see what they want to believe - even you know that. In this case these four believers paid dearly for their beliefs. They must have been hoodwinked pretty well to spend their lives in prisons, or in one case crucified upside down. Perhaps they were insane?

[manu1959]

In this case these four believers paid dearly for their beliefs. They must have been hoodwinked pretty well to spend their lives in prisons, or in one case crucified upside down. Perhaps they were insane?

perhaps.......there is no way to know for sure......

[My Winter Storm]

you have no proof the civil war happened only books.....you take it on faith the books are true....

Fair enough, but I wasn't there during WW1, or WW2. Nor was I there when man landed on the moon (don't get me started here) and I wasn't there in the US when 9/11 happened, I know it did happened because people who were alive then are still alive now and can tell us what happened.
No one is alive from when Jesus was alive.

[My Winter Storm]

In this case these four believers paid dearly for their beliefs. They must have been hoodwinked pretty well to spend their lives in prisons, or in one case crucified upside down. Perhaps they were insane?

I don't think they were insane, I just think they wanted to believe, and still believed when they paid for their beliefs.
The fact that they were punished shows that some people didn't believe Jesus did all that he claimed, doesn't it?

[My Winter Storm]

you still did not see it, you only believe what other have told you.

just because something doesn't happen every day, does not mean it did not happen. would you agree?

Just because man has landed on the moon once doesn't mean it happened at all, right, lol.

I don't believe what people tell me, I came to my own opinion after thinking about it, and deciding that such a thing could not have happened.

[Yurt]

Just because man has landed on the moon once doesn't mean it happened at all, right, lol.

I don't believe what people tell me, I came to my own opinion after thinking about it, and deciding that such a thing could not have happened.

your entitled to your beliefs. let me clarify my question.... if it has not happened before (you said every day so i tailored the first question accordingly) then according to your line of thought, it cannot happen because it simply does not happen...ie, doctors don't heal cancer on touch.

[My Winter Storm]

your entitled to your beliefs. let me clarify my question.... if it has not happened before (you said every day so i tailored the first question accordingly) then according to your line of thought, it cannot happen because it simply does not happen...ie, doctors don't heal cancer on touch.

No, if something happens only once it may still have happened, I guess it just depends on the thing that happens, and what sounds more believable. To me, curing someone of cancer with chemotherapy is more believable than someone simply tounching someone and ridding them of cancer.

[manu1959]

Fair enough, but I wasn't there during WW1, or WW2. Nor was I there when man landed on the moon (don't get me started here) and I wasn't there in the US when 9/11 happened, I know it did happened because people who were alive then are still alive now and can tell us what happened.
No one is alive from when Jesus was alive.

so you argue for any history that no longer has living witnesses is in doubt.....

why do you trust living witnesses but not the written accounts of witnesses that were once alive.....

[hjmick]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't think they were insane, I just think they wanted to believe, and still believed when they paid for their beliefs.
The fact that they were punished shows that some people didn't believe Jesus did all that he claimed, doesn't it?

Actually, it's much more likely that they were afraid that it all was true, and and they had to contain it.

[Yurt]

No, if something happens only once it may still have happened, I guess it just depends on the thing that happens, and what sounds more believable. To me, curing someone of cancer with chemotherapy is more believable than someone simply tounching someone and ridding them of cancer.

do you believe in the big bang?

interestingly, some very important advancements in science and exploration have come about because some chose not to "believe" current "knowledge" and instead took a "leap of faith"

[avatar4321]

The Civil War was different, wars happen, people don't walk on water everyday, though.

None of you were there when all this supposedy happened, right? So it is just your faith that makes you believe, right? Even if you have no way of proving it, I can't disprove it, you and I believe what we believe. I don't believe in your faith, so obviously I am not going to believe the same things you do. :)

I don't have to be there. I simply went to the source and asked Him whether what happened in the scriptures was true or not. The answer was very clear.

[My Winter Storm]

I don't have to be there. I simply went to the source and asked Him whether what happened in the scriptures was true or not. The answer was very clear.

So you spoke to God?

I won't comment because I don't wish to insult you. Believe what you want, but I don't have to believe everything, only what seems more plausible to me. Many things I haven't seen, but I believe them because it sounds like it is true. The things that Jesus did sound too far fetched for me to even consider the fact that he may have done them. I just don't share your faith.

[My Winter Storm]

do you believe in the big bang?

I don't know. There are two theories, one, that God created everything, or, that there was a giant explosion, and suddenly the world was there. Neithor sound plausible to me, they both seem very far fetched, but I guess in order to believe that God created everything, you must believe in God, which I don't. There is also proof of evolution and all that. I don't think scientists know for sure if there was a Big Bang or not, perhaps they only think this is what happened, but I am not sure. I would more sooner believe the BB theory than the God one, though.

[glockmail]

perhaps.......there is no way to know for sure......
Preponderance of evidence.

[avatar4321]

So you spoke to God?

I won't comment because I don't wish to insult you. Believe what you want, but I don't have to believe everything, only what seems more plausible to me. Many things I haven't seen, but I believe them because it sounds like it is true. The things that Jesus did sound too far fetched for me to even consider the fact that he may have done them. I just don't share your faith.

Anyone can speak with God. It's very easy to do. Most people just dont bother doing it or they don't listen. I can't figure out why people can't believe that an omnipotent Father wouldnt speak with His children. Specifically, because they are unwilling to wait through the trial of faith. Its the instant grafication part of our natures.

[Gaffer]

Sharon, if you don't believe anything in history happened then you can't even believe in your self and how you came to be. Because most of what you know about your early years are told to you. Perception is another factor. When you see something occur and someone else sees the same thing you both will perceive it differently. If you both write down what you saw there will be two different accounts, based on actual happenings, bias, and even wishful thinking. If you are then both put together with your accounts you will then influence each other and on rewriting the story it will be added too. Because you have both been influenced by the other.

You have two stories of the same event. The stories tell about who was involved and what happened. Those are the facts. The big question becomes why did it happen. That is the really big question. Is it simply a small event or does it relate to something of cosmic magnitude? Generations from now the facts will still be the same. Why, will remain unanswered except through speculation.

Now we throw in a third person who says it never happened at all. They didn't see it so it can't be true. Why?

[No_Socialism]

The jews didn't kill Christ. Nor did the Romans.

Biblically speaking, SIN killed Christ starting with Adam & Eve in the garden.

[manu1959]

Preponderance of evidence.

there is no way to know for sure.......

[glockmail]

there is no way to know for sure..........if the sun will come up tomorrow.

[hjmick]

...the sun will come up tomorrow.

Wipe away the cobwebs and the sorrow...

[manu1959]

...if the sun will come up tomorrow.

there is no way to know that for sure either.....you really should take a philosophy class.....

also the sun, if it appears tommorrow, does not "come up"....the sun doesn't move.....

did you know you can not see the sun set.....

[glockmail]

there is no way to know that for sure either.....you really should take a philosophy class.....

also the sun, if it appears tommorrow, does not "come up"....the sun doesn't move.....

did you know you can not see the sun set.....

I have. That's why I'm an engineer.

But you've hit on my point, that you can never prove to anyone that Christ is God, because they simply keep raising the required level of proof beyond reasonable. Whenever I ask them what level of proof they require they answer "absolute", if they answer at all. If that was the level required for scientific theories, criminal or civil cases, then nothing could ever be proved.

[My Winter Storm]

Sharon, if you don't believe anything in history happened then you can't even believe in your self and how you came to be. Because most of what you know about your early years are told to you. Perception is another factor. When you see something occur and someone else sees the same thing you both will perceive it differently. If you both write down what you saw there will be two different accounts, based on actual happenings, bias, and even wishful thinking. If you are then both put together with your accounts you will then influence each other and on rewriting the story it will be added too. Because you have both been influenced by the other.

You have two stories of the same event. The stories tell about who was involved and what happened. Those are the facts. The big question becomes why did it happen. That is the really big question. Is it simply a small event or does it relate to something of cosmic magnitude? Generations from now the facts will still be the same. Why, will remain unanswered except through speculation.

Now we throw in a third person who says it never happened at all. They didn't see it so it can't be true. Why?


Yes, we have two stories of the same event. We have the religious story, and the scientific story. What we have to do is decide which one sounds more plausible, and I choose the scientific story, not because it sounds better, but because I don't believe that someone created the world.
Only one of two things happened: Eithor there was indeed a Big Bang, or indeed God created everything, we just have to choose which one we believe. I can't believe in the religious therory just because religious people tell me it is true. I can't be sure, nor can I be sure that the scientific theory is true. Perhaps something else happened? Maybe there was on Big Bang, maybe no one made the world, maybe it was always there? I wasn't around back then, so I don't know, but I do just accept that we are here, and I am here.

[Roadrunner]

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin?

I will give you an answer that makes perfect sense to me. In "The Lost Books of the Bible", there is a book entitled "Adam and Eve", wherein the Lord names Satan as the culprit who would be responsible for His physical death because Satan would stir up the rage in the hearts of the people which would result in his death on the cross. So there you have it - the answer right from the "horse's mouth", so to speak.

[My Winter Storm]

I will give you an answer that makes perfect sense to me. In "The Lost Books of the Bible", there is a book entitled "Adam and Eve", wherein the Lord names Satan as the culprit who would be responsible for His physical death because Satan would stir up the rage in the hearts of the people which would result in his death on the cross. So there you have it - the answer right from the "horse's mouth", so to speak.

So Satan killed Jesus, despite the fact he wasn't even there?

[Roadrunner]

He put the idea in their hearts, and they acted on it. Today we would call the Jews and Romans Satan's hit men.

[DragonStryk72]

Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

A spear to the liver.

[Yurt]

I will give you an answer that makes perfect sense to me. In "The Lost Books of the Bible", there is a book entitled "Adam and Eve", wherein the Lord names Satan as the culprit who would be responsible for His physical death because Satan would stir up the rage in the hearts of the people which would result in his death on the cross. So there you have it - the answer right from the "horse's mouth", so to speak.

and satan equals sin, so there you have it

[82Marine89]

Seems MFM here is bent on calling me a "christ killer" because my father is of jewish heritage. doesn't seem to matter to mfm that i'm christian and he knows, rather, it is my link to the jews that makes me a christ killer.

so, what really killed Christ? the jews? sin? if it was God's will that Christ die, how can anyone actually blame the jews? the statement alone shows complete ignorance of what "jew" means. Jesus was jewish. so we can see what a bigotted statement it is to say that "jews" killed Christ.

but we can thank our resident "preacher" for letting it be known that Yurt is a Christ killer.

A little late to the chaos, but if I were to venture to guess, I would have to say He stopped breathing. That's a sure fire way to get yourself dead. As for Yurt killing Christ....





































SINNER!

[DragonStryk72]

and satan equals sin, so there you have it

Actually, that's a little bit too simple. You see, while Satan is evil, he does not control all of our actions. We have free will, otherwise we would not be accountable for our own thoughts and actions. To make Satan be responsible for every single evil that humans do diminishes the gift of free will that god gave us.

People have more than enough capacity for both the greatest good, and the greatest evil, to do both without the intervention of god, or the devil.

[Yurt]

A little late to the chaos, but if I were to venture to guess, I would have to say He stopped breathing. That's a sure fire way to get yourself dead. As for Yurt killing Christ....





































SINNER!

my handbasket to hell has room for one more....:D

[82Marine89]

my handbasket to hell has room for one more....:D

LOL:cheers2:

[Yurt]

Actually, that's a little bit too simple. You see, while Satan is evil, he does not control all of our actions. We have free will, otherwise we would not be accountable for our own thoughts and actions. To make Satan be responsible for every single evil that humans do diminishes the gift of free will that god gave us.

People have more than enough capacity for both the greatest good, and the greatest evil, to do both without the intervention of god, or the devil.

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

[DragonStryk72]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control. He does not, therefore, "control" our actions, as we can as well banish him of our own convictions. We need to also need to remember that these writings were written almost two millenia ago, and in a vastly different language and vernacular than we use today. Taking the bible literally goes down dark paths I never want to venture down.

If Satan were able to "control" our thoughts, then God lied to us when he said we had free will, something I do not believe to be possible. Free will means that, yes, the power to be good, or be evil, lies with us, not with God or the Devil. God granted us a wonderful gift in free will, but nothing is free if it is shackled, by either good or by evil. Just as Satan cannot "make" us do anything, nor can God "make" us do anything, this was proven when King David went against God's orders to impregnate a woman, instead pulling out (This is most frequently used to prove masturbation is wrong, but is in fact really a lot more about God getting pissed because David broke his word with God).

Now, can we serve God, or serve Satan through our actions? Certainly, but only by our own will, by our own choice.

[Yurt]

DragonStryk72;233626]As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control. He does not, therefore, "control" our actions, as we can as well banish him of our own convictions.

but he can still control us...yes or no?


We need to also need to remember that these writings were written almost two millenia ago, and in a vastly different language and vernacular than we use today. Taking the bible literally goes down dark paths I never want to venture down.

your point? are you saying i did? when and where?



If Satan were able to "control" our thoughts, then God lied to us when he said we had free will, something I do not believe to be possible. Free will means that, yes, the power to be good, or be evil, lies with us, not with God or the Devil. God granted us a wonderful gift in free will, but nothing is free if it is shackled, by either good or by evil. Just as Satan cannot "make" us do anything, nor can God "make" us do anything, this was proven when King David went against God's orders to impregnate a woman, instead pulling out (This is most frequently used to prove masturbation is wrong, but is in fact really a lot more about God getting pissed because David broke his word with God).

Now, can we serve God, or serve Satan through our actions? Certainly, but only by our own will, by our own choice.

so we can give him complete control.... i already said that

hypo: if i put a gun in my five year old kids hand and tell him, point that toy at that person and pull that little trigger...the child pulls the little "toy" trigger....

what would you call that

[DragonStryk72]

but he can still control us...yes or no?

Since he can only have as much "control" as we allow, and since we can simply boot him at any time by our own choice, no, he doesn't, he only possesses the lie of control. We are the ones in control, we only like to think "Satan did it" because it is easier than the moral hit we would have to take otherwise.

your point? are you saying i did? when and where?

You seemed to be going in that direction with paul's message. I believe that he meant it more in a metaphorical sense, "fight the 'demons' within"


so we can give him complete control.... i already said that

hypo: if i put a gun in my five year old kids hand and tell him, point that toy at that person and pull that little trigger...the child pulls the little "toy" trigger....

what would you call that

A horrible choice made by a person, not Satan necessarily. The child could also drop the gun, or a number of other options.

[Yurt]

A horrible choice made by a person, not Satan necessarily. The child could also drop the gun, or a number of other options.

can't quote the rest, lost in the way your quoted me. do you fully understand the power of "free will?" can you completely control yourself? no matter what? satan has no control over you, none. you are blameless, without sin, perfect.

so the five year old made the choice? the five year thought like you is what you are really saying....you aren't five. to satan you are though.

[Missileman]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

If the Bible is true...if there is a heaven where a soul spends eternity, God didn't sacrifice anything.

[DragonStryk72]

can't quote the rest, lost in the way your quoted me. do you fully understand the power of "free will?" can you completely control yourself? no matter what? satan has no control over you, none. you are blameless, without sin, perfect.

so the five year old made the choice? the five year thought like you is what you are really saying....you aren't five. to satan you are though.

Um, no, it means it is free, free to choose, even to choose not to. Wherein did I say blameless, or even hint at it? It means that we are responsible for our choices, both good and bad. We have more capacity than a five year, lest everyone would have fallen to satan at this point.

Yes, if we hand Satan the keys, refuse to do anything to stop him, and otherwise choose of our own free will to keep letting him "control" our actions, then that is the choice we made with our free will. Otherwise, he can't win, plain and simple. when is the last time that you felt like a marionette, strings physically pulling yank you, regardless of what you want?

We can choose not to do that, see? free will again. Much like freedom in our own country, we have the freedom to fuck up, and do things wrong, we have the freedom to break the rules, but should we, then we will have consequences to deal with. Blaming it all on Satan is just a rationalization, instead of taking the hard look at ourselves, and seeing that it is us, and only us, who have control over what we do.

The person who gave the kid the gun was also just that, a person. Why always bad analogies? Using flawed logic doesn't prove anything, it simply tries to turn something more complex into something simple in a way that destroys all context.

[DragonStryk72]

my understanding from the bible is that satan can indeed control our thoughts and actions...paul described a daily battle....if we let him. it would be remiss of anyone to claim that anything about sin is "simple", it is so complex that God had to sacrifice his own Son...for sin...that lucifer first started and is the "prince" of, so saying that satan equals sin is, IMO, quite accurate.

So then Bush is America, and Queen Elisabeth is England? Sin is a separate entity, just like, when Giuliani was mayor in NYC, that did not make him NYC, just the mayor of it.

Actually, Jesus also took some time to strike down Leviticus, which is what the Pharisees were using to go against him, but anyhow.

[Roadrunner]

As you yourself just said, if we let him in, if we give him control.

"if we let him in" - That's the whole substance of free will. We can choose to obey Satan's promptings, or we can choose to obey the Word of God. Neither controls us; the choice is ours. The Jews and Romans chose to obey the promptings of Satan at the time of Christ's death. That's why Christ said Satan would be the culprit in bringing about his death.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. The facts are thusly.
2. *The Devil* has powers you could never withstand.
3. If he were to focus it on you.
4. *The Powers of Satan* are what drove the *Death of Christ*.
5. Small victory, but in winning this one small battle, *Satan* lost the war.
6. Sometimes winning is losing, and in the case of *Christ* dieing on *The Cross*, this fulfilled *All Righteousness*, which in a way is unfathomable to the average human.
7. How can losing be winning for *God*?
8. This is another, *Mystery* most humans can't wrap their brains around.
9. If you understand the, *Bible* and its boiled down lesson, you can easily understand this.
10. The over all message goes thusly.
11. An uppity part of *Gods* creation, wanted to be like *God*, he stole away part of it, and caused a split, which could not be corrected, unless a sacrifice took place, for reconciliation of *Creation* and *God*.
12. The breach occurred by the promptings of a fallen angel, who thought he knew better than *God*, and wanted power to over rule, *God*, in all things.
13. Mankind is in a way *A Unahppy Victim* of creation, who really didn't have a say in all this, and *God* *Being A Just God*, and a *Fair God*, sent his *Only Begotten Son*, which in fact was himself, to prepare himself, a sacrifice, of himself, to allow safe passage, from eternal damnation, providing for humankind, an escape clause, in a world, that has snares and trap doors, untold.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas