Unions Want To Organize Illegals In CA

[red states rule]

It keeps getting for and more outragious.



At L.A. carwashes, taking a stand

By Sonia Nazario, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
March 27, 2008
"Compañero, how do they treat you here?"

The stranger addressed Manuel Varela, a worker at Nary's Hand Car Wash on Beverly Boulevard, in Spanish.

Badly," Varela answered, continuing to pass tickets to motorists as they pulled in.

Curious, Gabriel Chavez crawled out of the car he was vacuuming. Keeping his gaze on the small window that the owner used to peer at his workers, he stepped toward the visitor, out of his boss' sightline.

"Do you know you have rights?" the stranger asked Chavez.

The man's name was Mario Giron. He was a union organizer, promising a route to better pay and working conditions. As he explained, Chavez eyed the window. Twice, he raced back to vacuum cars, then returned.

Before leaving, Giron slipped the workers a card, urging them to attend a meeting.

Both men vividly recalled organizers' stealthy visit to Nary's in Los Angeles last March, the first in an effort by two of the nation's largest unions, the AFL-CIO and the United Steelworkers, to organize Southern California's 18,000 carwasheros, many of them illegal immigrants.

During the next year, at carwash after carwash, the organizers would crouch between rows of cars, whispering plans to right the wrongs in the industry. Sometimes they were evicted by owners or police, sometimes shunned by workers themselves.

"If they fire me," one Pasadena car dryer sneered, "will you pay my salary?"


http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-me-carwash27mar27,1,6882704.story

[Trigg]

Hey this could work.

All ICE has to do is organize a "union meeting" and then ship them to the border. :dance:

[red states rule]

Hey this could work.

All ICE has to do is organize a "union meeting" and then ship them to the border. :dance:

But the ICE folks would have to get by McCain, Hillary, and Obama who will be there handing out drivers license applicationa, and voter registration forms

[gabosaurus]

They want to punish the illegals and not their employers? That is like distributing poisonous cupcakes and arresting the people who ate them.

[Trigg]

They want to punish the illegals and not their employers? That is like distributing poisonous cupcakes and arresting the people who ate them.

How exactly is organizing a union punishing the illegals?????

You and I agree though, the person they should be punishing are the employers. Illegals will stop coming if there are no jobs.

[red states rule]

How exactly is organizing a union punishing the illegals?????

You and I agree though, the person they should be punishing are the employers. Illegals will stop coming if there are no jobs.

If we enforced the current immigration laws on the books, the illegals would not be here to get the jobs from the employers

[Trigg]

If we enforced the current immigration laws on the books, the illegals would not be here to get the jobs from the employers

Agreed

[red states rule]

Agreed

It is to easy to blame the employers, and give the illegals a pass. In states like AZ where they pass tough immigration laws, the illegoas are deporting themselves out of the state

Now if all 50 states would follow their lead, the illegals would get the hell out of the US and back where they belong

[Trigg]

It is to easy to blame the employers, and give the illegals a pass. In states like AZ where they pass tough immigration laws, the illegoas are deporting themselves out of the state

Now if all 50 states would follow their lead, the illegals would get the hell out of the US and back where they belong

The employers are braking the law by employing the illegals in the first place.

Stop them from hiring illegals and enfore the laws on the books.

States like AZ and OK have done exactly that. They've threatened the employers with loosing their license.


Build a fence, fine the employers. End of problem.

[red states rule]

The employers are braking the law by employing the illegals in the first place.

Stop them from hiring illegals and enfore the laws on the books.

States like AZ and OK have done exactly that. They've threatened the employers with loosing their license.


Build a fence, fine the employers. End of problem.

If the illegals were not here in the first place, how could the employeers hire them. Stop landlords from renting to them.

I agree, fine the employers, but deport the illegals ASAP

[Trigg]

If the illegals were not here in the first place, how could the employeers hire them. Stop landlords from renting to them.

I agree, fine the employers, but deport the illegals ASAP

Yep, completely agree with deporting them.

I like that FL and other states are looking at the prison populations and deporting them straight from there instead of releasing them like they used to.

Making the US as inhospitable to the illegals as possible should be the goal of the gov.

[Dilloduck]

The employers are braking the law by employing the illegals in the first place.

Stop them from hiring illegals and enfore the laws on the books.

States like AZ and OK have done exactly that. They've threatened the employers with loosing their license.


Build a fence, fine the employers. End of problem.


Employers get away with it because we buy the end product.

[red states rule]

Employers get away with it because we buy the end product.

I do not believe employers "get away with it". But it does seem more anger is directed at the employers then the illegals who broke the law the moment they crossed the border

[Dilloduck]

I do not believe employers "get away with it". But it does seem more anger is directed at the employers then the illegals who broke the law the moment they crossed the border

You don't think employers get away with hiring illegals to do their labor cheaper than they would have to pay an American citizen to do it ? Consumers might bitch but they also continue to buy the final product. Often times they don't even know it. Contractors in Austin use illegal alien labor to build new houses instead of paying Americans to do the labor.

[red states rule]

You don't think employers get away with hiring illegals to do their labor cheaper than they would have to pay an American citizen to do it ? Consumers might bitch but they also continue to buy the final product. Often times they don't even know it. Contractors in Austin use illegal alien labor to build new houses instead of paying Americans to do the labor.

I have seen reports of raids and fines. If employers break the law, fine them

But the illegals get the sympathy, and then a pass. They broke the law by being here in the first place

[Dilloduck]

I have seen reports of raids and fines. If employers break the law, fine them

But the illegals get the sympathy, and then a pass. They broke the law by being here in the first place

Just pointing out some facts---if Americans did not support cheap illegal labor by purchasing the product there would be less of it. Consumers contribute to the problem.

[red states rule]

Just pointing out some facts---if Americans did not support cheap illegal labor by purchasing the product there would be less of it. Consumers contribute to the problem.

More facts - if we enforced our laws the cheap labor would not be here in the first place

When was the last time you went to buy something and looked to pay the highest price possible?

[Dilloduck]

More facts - if we enforced our laws the cheap labor would not be here in the first place

When was the last time you went to buy something and looked to pay the highest price possible?

I have never nor will I ever support ignoring our immigration laws but if you don't think that consumers turning a blind eye to the problem contributes to it, I got a cheap bridge built by illegals I'd like to sell ya.

[red states rule]

I have never nor will I ever support ignoring our immigration laws but if you don't think that consumers turning a blind eye to the problem contributes to it, I got a cheap bridge built by illegals I'd like to sell ya.

Why do some want to put more of the blame on employers and consumers, and not the criminal illegals?

If we enforced our laws, built a fence, and deported illegals when caught - your issue would not be such a huge issue

[retiredman]

Why do some want to put more of the blame on employers and consumers, and not the criminal illegals?

If we enforced our laws, built a fence, and deported illegals when caught - your issue would not be such a huge issue


if employers weren't eager to hire them, and if consumers weren't hungry for cheaper products and services supplied by those employers, there would be no reason for them to come to America.

[Dilloduck]

Why do some want to put more of the blame on employers and consumers, and not the criminal illegals?

If we enforced our laws, built a fence, and deported illegals when caught - your issue would not be such a huge issue

STOP IT---i have never put MORE blame on those purchasing the product than those illegally here providing it. Your hyper- partisanship is taking you over the edge of reason.

[red states rule]

if employers weren't eager to hire them, and if consumers weren't hungry for cheaper products and services supplied by those employers, there would be no reason for them to come to America.

Again, when did you set out to buy something at the highest price possible?

So you are giving a pass to the illegals for breaking our laws in the first place? Enforcing the existing laws would solve the problem

[red states rule]

STOP IT---i have never put MORE blame on those purchasing the product than those illegally here providing it. Your hyper- partisanship is taking you over the edge of reason.

I am not saying you are. I am saying most of the new reports and talking points put the blame on everyone except the illegals

[Dilloduck]

Again, when did you set out to buy something at the highest price possible?


That's exactly the point--Americans are greedy and will buy on the cheap knowing full well it was produced by questionable labor practices. Bitch, bitch,bitch about illegal aliens and then go buy a house BECAUSE CHEAP ILLEGAL LABOR MADE IT .

[red states rule]

That's exactly the point--Americans are greedy and will buy on the cheap knowing full well it was produced by questionable labor practices. Bitch, bitch,bitch about illegal aliens and then go buy a house BECAUSE CHEAP ILLEGAL LABOR MADE IT .

I guess you are blaming American consumers more then the criminal illegals. It is not the illegals fault they broke our laws - it is the fault of "greedy" Americans

[Dilloduck]

I guess you are blaming American consumers more then the criminal illegals. It is not the illegals fault they broke our laws - it is the fault of "greedy" Americans

Wrong again---I am saying that consumers are part of the reason we continue to have a problem. We reward their criminal behavior ---period.

[retiredman]

Again, when did you set out to buy something at the highest price possible?

So you are giving a pass to the illegals for breaking our laws in the first place? Enforcing the existing laws would solve the problem

again...if there were no jobs for them, they wouldn't come. I give no one a free pass, but you seem to ignore the fact that the cost of food will skyrocket, the cost of housing will skyrocket, the hospitality industry will implode, the restaurant industry will implode.... our economy is built on cheap immigrant labor and as long as the american consumer demands lower prices, the employers will continue to offer illegal immigrants low paying jobs to meet those consumer demands.

[red states rule]

Wrong again---I am saying that consumers are part of the reason we continue to have a problem. We reward their criminal behavior ---period.

and it takes us back to my original point - if we had politicans with the balls to enforce existing laws we would not be talking about this

It is not the fault of the American consumers, it is the fault of ALL the politicans who would rather cave to the open borders crowd. then protect our borders

[red states rule]

again...if there were no jobs for them, they wouldn't come. I give no one a free pass, but you seem to ignore the fact that the cost of food will skyrocket, the cost of housing will skyrocket, the hospitality industry will implode, the restaurant industry will implode.... our economy is built on cheap immigrant labor and as long as the american consumer demands lower prices, the employers will continue to offer illegal immigrants low paying jobs to meet those consumer demands.

Illegals are costing the taxpayers billions already. It would be cheaper to enforce our laws

[Dilloduck]

Illegals are costing the taxpayers billions already. It would be cheaper to enforce our laws

has anyone said otherwise?

[retiredman]

Illegals are costing the taxpayers billions already. It would be cheaper to enforce our laws

that is your opinion. unfortunately, it appears that american employers wanting cheap labor and american consumers wanting cheap vegetables disagree with you.

as long as there are jobs...as long as americans demand the cheap products brought to them by illegal immigrant labor, immigrants will come for those jobs.

[red states rule]

has anyone said otherwise?

see post # 27

[Dilloduck]

see post # 27

post 27 does not say it would be more expensive to enforce the law
it explains why the problem exists

[red states rule]

that is your opinion. unfortunately, it appears that american employers wanting cheap labor and american consumers wanting cheap vegetables disagree with you.

as long as there are jobs...as long as americans demand the cheap products brought to them by illegal immigrant labor, immigrants will come for those jobs.

Not opinion - it is a fact

May 22, 2007
The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. Taxpayer
by Robert E. Rector and Christine Kim
Special Report #14

Each year, families and individuals pay taxes to the government and receive back a wide variety of services and benefits. A fiscal deficit occurs when the benefits and services received by one group exceed the taxes paid. When such a deficit occurs, other groups must pay for the services and benefits of the group in deficit. Each year, govern*ment is involved in a large-scale transfer of resources between different social groups.

Fiscal distribution analysis measures the distribution of total government benefits and taxes in society. It pro*vides an assessment of the magnitude of government transfers between groups. This paper provides a fiscal distri*bution analysis of households headed by immigrants without a high school diploma. It measures the total benefits and services received by this group and the total taxes paid. The difference between benefits received and taxes paid represents the total resources transferred by government on behalf of this group from the rest of society.

The first step in an analysis of the distribution of benefits and taxes is to count accurately the cost of all benefits and services provided by the government. The size and cost of government is far larger than many people imagine. In fiscal year (FY) 2004, the expenditures of the federal government were $2.3 trillion. In the same year, expendi*tures of state and local governments were $1.45 trillion. The combined value of federal, state, and local expenditures in FY 2004 was $3.75 trillion.[1]

The sum of $3.75 trillion is so large that it is difficult to comprehend. One way to grasp the size of government more readily is to calculate average expenditures per household. In 2004, there were some 115 million households in the U.S.[2] (This figure includes multi-person families and single persons living alone.) The average cost of govern*ment spending thus amounted to $32,707 per household across the U.S. population.[3]

for the complete article

http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/SR14.cfm

[retiredman]

no one is denying that there is a cost.... I am disputing your assertions that it would be "cheaper to just enforce our laws".... the incremental cost to the average american consumer for everything from a head of lettuce to a restaurant meal to lawn care service to a newly built home would skyrocket and those increased costs are not measured.

[Dilloduck]

Not opinion - it is a fact

May 22, 2007
The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. Taxpayer
by Robert E. Rector and Christine Kim
Special Report #14

Each year, families and individuals pay taxes to the government and receive back a wide variety of services and benefits. A fiscal deficit occurs when the benefits and services received by one group exceed the taxes paid. When such a deficit occurs, other groups must pay for the services and benefits of the group in deficit. Each year, govern*ment is involved in a large-scale transfer of resources between different social groups.

Fiscal distribution analysis measures the distribution of total government benefits and taxes in society. It pro*vides an assessment of the magnitude of government transfers between groups. This paper provides a fiscal distri*bution analysis of households headed by immigrants without a high school diploma. It measures the total benefits and services received by this group and the total taxes paid. The difference between benefits received and taxes paid represents the total resources transferred by government on behalf of this group from the rest of society.

The first step in an analysis of the distribution of benefits and taxes is to count accurately the cost of all benefits and services provided by the government. The size and cost of government is far larger than many people imagine. In fiscal year (FY) 2004, the expenditures of the federal government were $2.3 trillion. In the same year, expendi*tures of state and local governments were $1.45 trillion. The combined value of federal, state, and local expenditures in FY 2004 was $3.75 trillion.[1]

The sum of $3.75 trillion is so large that it is difficult to comprehend. One way to grasp the size of government more readily is to calculate average expenditures per household. In 2004, there were some 115 million households in the U.S.[2] (This figure includes multi-person families and single persons living alone.) The average cost of govern*ment spending thus amounted to $32,707 per household across the U.S. population.[3]

for the complete article

http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/SR14.cfm

American consumers don't give a shit about the big picture---they want cheap shit. They think they are getting a deal. They are getting screwed.

[red states rule]

no one is denying that there is a cost.... I am disputing your assertions that it would be "cheaper to just enforce our laws".... the incremental cost to the average american consumer for everything from a head of lettuce to a restaurant meal to lawn care service to a newly built home would skyrocket and those increased costs are not measured.

It would be cheaper to deport them then continue to pay the costs of education, social programs, medical care, and those in jail (just to name a few)

snip

Balance of Taxes and Benefits

On average, low-skill immigrant households re*ceived $30,160 per household in immediate govern*ment benefits and services in FY 2004, including direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and popula*tion-based services. By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes. Thus, low-skill immigrant households received nearly three dollars in benefits and services for each dollar in taxes paid.

[Dilloduck]

It would be cheaper to deport them then continue to pay the costs of education, social programs, medical care, and those in jail (just to name a few)

snip

Balance of Taxes and Benefits

On average, low-skill immigrant households re*ceived $30,160 per household in immediate govern*ment benefits and services in FY 2004, including direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and popula*tion-based services. By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes. Thus, low-skill immigrant households received nearly three dollars in benefits and services for each dollar in taxes paid.

no shit----now try to explain that to the public and politicos

[retiredman]

no shit----now try to explain that to the public and politicos


explain that to the lady at the supermarket where lettuce is as expensive as caviar

explain that to the prospective home buyer who cannot get a new home built.

explain that to the diner at a restaurant who can't afford the blue plate special

[red states rule]

no shit----now try to explain that to the public and politicos

I was also pointing out to MFM who does not believe it would be cheaper to enforce our laws

The public does not support amnesty and wants our laws enforced. I hope the voters remember that on Election day

[red states rule]

explain that to the lady at the supermarket where lettuce is as expensive as caviar

explain that to the prospective home buyer who cannot get a new home built.

explain that to the diner at a restaurant who can't afford the blue plate special

You must have ignored the numbers showing it is more expensive to keep the illegals here then enforcing our laws

[retiredman]

You must have ignored the numbers showing it is more expensive to keep the illegals here then enforcing our laws
expensive to the government, perhaps, but not necessarily to the consumer.

Your link talks about the costs of illegal immigration to the average taxpayer...it does not discuss the costs of NOT having the benefits in lower priced goods and services that illegal immigrants provide.

[red states rule]

expensive to the government, perhaps, but not necessarily to the consumer.

Your link talks about the costs of illegal immigration to the average taxpayer...it does not discuss the costs of NOT having the benefits in lower priced goods and services that illegal immigrants provide.

Where the hell d you think the government gets their money from?

More on the cost to taxpayers

Net Lifetime Costs

Receiving, on average, $19,588 more in immediate benefits than they pay in taxes each year, low-skill immi*grant households impose substantial long-term costs on the U.S. taxpayer. Assuming an average 60-year adult life span for heads of household,[24] the aver*age lifetime costs to the taxpayer will be nearly $1.2 million for each low-skill household, net of any taxes paid.[25]

This calculation assumes that a low-skill immigrant comes to the U.S. in his mid-twenties with a spouse and that both remain in the U.S. for an average of 60 years. Even if low-skill immigrants return home rather than remain in the U.S. permanently, thereby reducing costs, this argument merely underscores how costly low-skill immigrants are to the U.S. taxpayer. The less time these immigrants spend in the U.S., the lower the cost to the taxpayer. Moreover, most current immigration reform proposals would grant legal status to illegal immigrants, increasing their access to welfare and Social Security. These proposals would substantially increase the time that these immigrants remain in the U.S.

Aggregate Annual Net Fiscal Costs

In 2004, there were 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households. As shown in Chart 5, the average net fiscal deficit per household was $19,588. This means that the total annual fiscal deficit (total benefits received minus total taxes paid) for all 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households together equaled $89.1 billion (the deficit of $19,588 per household times 4.54 million households). This sum includes direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services. Over the next ten years, the net cost (benefits minus taxes) to the taxpayer of all low-skill immigrant households will approach one trillion dollars.

Future Retirement Costs of Low-skill Immigrants

As Chart 7 shows, low-skill immigrants at each age create a net burden on taxpayers. However, the fiscal burden becomes most severe among elderly households, where the net annual fiscal deficit soars to $32,686 per household per year. This amounts to roughly $15,000 per year for each elderly low-skill immigrant.

There are currently 8 million non-elderly adult immigrants in low-skill immigrant households.[26] Assuming nor*mal mortality rates, perhaps 7 million of these individuals will live to age 67.[27] After reaching age 67, the normal life expectancy would be approximately 18 years. With an average net cost of roughly $270,000 over 18 years, the net future retirement costs of the 7 million low-skill immi*grants would be around $1.9 trillion.

There are two important assumptions behind this calculation. First, it assumes that current low-skill immi*grants will remain in the U.S. or, at least, receive govern*ment benefits through old age.[28] Second, the calculation assumes that illegal immigrants will, over time, become entitled to government benefits. (This question is dis*cussed in the policy issues section below.) If adult illegal immigrants do not obtain entitlement to Social Security and other government benefits, then the long-term cost to taxpayers will be significantly reduced. This empha*sizes the basic point that the longer low-skill immigrants remain in the U.S., and the more access they have to gov*ernment benefits, the greater the cost to U.S. taxpayers.

[Dilloduck]

I was also pointing out to MFM who does not believe it would be cheaper to enforce our laws

The public does not support amnesty and wants our laws enforced. I hope the voters remember that on Election day

Who are you kidding ?---there isn't a candidate out there who will close our borders----you know why too.

[Dilloduck]

Where the hell d you think the government gets their money from?

More on the cost to taxpayers

Net Lifetime Costs

Receiving, on average, $19,588 more in immediate benefits than they pay in taxes each year, low-skill immi*grant households impose substantial long-term costs on the U.S. taxpayer. Assuming an average 60-year adult life span for heads of household,[24] the aver*age lifetime costs to the taxpayer will be nearly $1.2 million for each low-skill household, net of any taxes paid.[25]

This calculation assumes that a low-skill immigrant comes to the U.S. in his mid-twenties with a spouse and that both remain in the U.S. for an average of 60 years. Even if low-skill immigrants return home rather than remain in the U.S. permanently, thereby reducing costs, this argument merely underscores how costly low-skill immigrants are to the U.S. taxpayer. The less time these immigrants spend in the U.S., the lower the cost to the taxpayer. Moreover, most current immigration reform proposals would grant legal status to illegal immigrants, increasing their access to welfare and Social Security. These proposals would substantially increase the time that these immigrants remain in the U.S.

Aggregate Annual Net Fiscal Costs

In 2004, there were 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households. As shown in Chart 5, the average net fiscal deficit per household was $19,588. This means that the total annual fiscal deficit (total benefits received minus total taxes paid) for all 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households together equaled $89.1 billion (the deficit of $19,588 per household times 4.54 million households). This sum includes direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services. Over the next ten years, the net cost (benefits minus taxes) to the taxpayer of all low-skill immigrant households will approach one trillion dollars.

Future Retirement Costs of Low-skill Immigrants

As Chart 7 shows, low-skill immigrants at each age create a net burden on taxpayers. However, the fiscal burden becomes most severe among elderly households, where the net annual fiscal deficit soars to $32,686 per household per year. This amounts to roughly $15,000 per year for each elderly low-skill immigrant.

There are currently 8 million non-elderly adult immigrants in low-skill immigrant households.[26] Assuming nor*mal mortality rates, perhaps 7 million of these individuals will live to age 67.[27] After reaching age 67, the normal life expectancy would be approximately 18 years. With an average net cost of roughly $270,000 over 18 years, the net future retirement costs of the 7 million low-skill immi*grants would be around $1.9 trillion.

There are two important assumptions behind this calculation. First, it assumes that current low-skill immi*grants will remain in the U.S. or, at least, receive govern*ment benefits through old age.[28] Second, the calculation assumes that illegal immigrants will, over time, become entitled to government benefits. (This question is dis*cussed in the policy issues section below.) If adult illegal immigrants do not obtain entitlement to Social Security and other government benefits, then the long-term cost to taxpayers will be significantly reduced. This empha*sizes the basic point that the longer low-skill immigrants remain in the U.S., and the more access they have to gov*ernment benefits, the greater the cost to U.S. taxpayers.

consumers are selfish and stupid--they see a deal--they take it---they don't give a damn what happens down the line--immediate gratification rules the day.

[retiredman]

Where the hell d you think the government gets their money from?
.


what do you think that the citizens spend their money on that they do NOT give to the government?

[red states rule]

Who are you kidding ?---there isn't a candidate out there who will close our borders----you know why too.

Because they see them as an untapped voting block. That is why Dems are for giving them drivers licenses. When they get a license in most states, they also can register to vote

If any of the candidates try to pass the amnesty bill all hell wil break loose. You saw the outrage last year from both sides when they were shot down, and had to pull the amnesty bill

[red states rule]

what do you think that the citizens spend their money on that they do NOT give to the government?

If we enforced our laws, they would not have to give as much to the government

Of course libs would find a way to keep the money anyway

[retiredman]

If we enforced our laws, they would not have to give as much to the government

Of course libs would find a way to keep the money anyway

do you have any idea how much money it would cost to deport all of the illegal immigrants?

and, as I have said, you have not quantified the savings that the American consumer currently realizes from the goods and services they get via cheap labor.

[Dilloduck]

Because they see them as an untapped voting block. That is why Dems are for giving them drivers licenses. When they get a license in most states, they also can register to vote

If any of the candidates try to pass the amnesty bill all hell wil break loose. You saw the outrage last year from both sides when they were shot down, and had to pull the amnesty bill

I don't hear McCain screaming to send the illegals home--the Republicans are equally guilty. If you want to play " liberals are all screwed " you better find a different topic.

[red states rule]

I don't hear McCain screaming to send the illegals home--the Republicans are equally guilty. If you want to play " liberals are all screwed " you better find a different topic.

I have said both sides are to blame

I was not talking about only libs

Take a pill

[Yurt]

They want to punish the illegals and not their employers? That is like distributing poisonous cupcakes and arresting the people who ate them.

so the people illegally sought the cupcakes?

[red states rule]

so the people illegally sought the cupcakes?

but there are millions who are illegally working here and getting government benefits that should go only to legal US citizens

But Gabby already knew that

[red states rule]

do you have any idea how much money it would cost to deport all of the illegal immigrants?

and, as I have said, you have not quantified the savings that the American consumer currently realizes from the goods and services they get via cheap labor.

With the new laws in OK and AZ, the illegals are deporting themselves. they are fleeing to liberal sanctuary cities

If all 50 states would pas similiar laws, they would leave the US

[retiredman]

With the new laws in OK and AZ, the illegals are deporting themselves. they are fleeing to liberal sanctuary cities

If all 50 states would pas similiar laws, they would leave the US

nice try at dodging my questions to you....

but in any case, what do those laws in those states do?

[red states rule]

nice try at dodging my questions to you....

but in any case, what do those laws in those states do?

No dodge it is fact

The laws prevent employers from hiring them, landlords from renting to them, and the government form giving them benefits

They are leaving on their own, but they are going to states where libs welcome them with open arms (and the open wallets of the taxpayers)

[retiredman]

No dodge it is fact

The laws prevent employers from hiring them, landlords from renting to them, and the government form giving them benefits

They are leaving on their own, but they are going to states where libs welcome them with open arms (and the open wallets of the taxpayers)

so the laws are punishing the employers? And what have I said all along?

[Trigg]

do you have any idea how much money it would cost to deport all of the illegal immigrants?

and, as I have said, you have not quantified the savings that the American consumer currently realizes from the goods and services they get via cheap labor.

The US already deports close to 300,000 a year.

Seal the border. Fine the hell out of employers. Check the immigration statis of anyone applying for social benefits, anyone arrested and anyone wanting to rent.

Illegals will get the idea that America isn't the place to be and they will leave on their own.


Also your question regarding OK and AZ. They're fining the businesses and cops are checking immigration status. Seems to be working for them.


The new law restricts the ability of illegal immigrants to obtain government IDs or public assistance. It also gives police authority to check the immigration status of anyone arrested, which can lead to deportations.

It doesn't stop at illegal immigrants. The law also makes it a felony for U.S. citizens to knowingly provide shelter, transportation or employment to illegal immigrants.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/02/oklahoma.immigration/

[red states rule]

so the laws are punishing the employers? And what have I said all along?

Nice dodge attempt - it is only a small part of the new laws

The illegals are fleeing to liberal cities where employers are not punished, and they are protected

[TheStripey1]

But the ICE folks would have to get by McCain, Hillary, and Obama who will be there handing out drivers license applicationa, and voter registration forms

:link:

[TheStripey1]

They want to punish the illegals and not their employers? That is like distributing poisonous cupcakes and arresting the people who ate them.

I agree. Let's do to the employers what they do to drug dealers... confisgate their property before they are sentenced to hard time.

[red states rule]

:link:

Hillary and Obama are for illegals getting drivers licenses

McCain is for amnesty

When you get the license you can register to vote

[TheStripey1]

If we enforced the current immigration laws on the books, the illegals would not be here to get the jobs from the employers

who's to blame for NOT enforcing those laws? why the bush administration of course...

[red states rule]

who's to blame for NOT enforcing those laws? why the bush administration of course...

and the Dems as well

[TheStripey1]

Why do some want to put more of the blame on employers and consumers, and not the criminal illegals?

If we enforced our laws, built a fence, and deported illegals when caught - your issue would not be such a huge issue

because if they didn't offer them jobs, then they wouldn't come here in the first place... they wouldn't cross the border...

Don't fine the employers... incarcerate them and confisgate their property... I guarantee you that that would solve the problem, PDQ.

[TheStripey1]

STOP IT---i have never put MORE blame on those purchasing the product than those illegally here providing it. Your hyper- partisanship is taking you over the edge of reason.

good luck with that... rsr has long since gone over the edge...

:dance:

[red states rule]

because if they didn't offer them jobs, then they wouldn't come here in the first place... they wouldn't cross the border...

Don't fine the employers... incarcerate them and confisgate their property... I guarantee you that that would solve the problem, PDQ.

So give the illegals a pass and make excuses for them?

You would fit in great with Hugo Chavez with your wraped sense of justice

[TheStripey1]

1) Again, when did you set out to buy something at the highest price possible?

2) Enforcing the existing laws would solve the problem

1) I buy from local merchants as opposed to buying from Wal-Mart, so yes, I DO buy more expensive items when I could buy them less expensively. DO YOU? or do you buy the cheapest available? ARE YOU PART OF THE PROBLEM???

2) Who's to blame for not enforcing the laws? BUSH et al!

[red states rule]

1) I buy from local merchants as opposed to buying from Wal-Mart, so yes, I DO buy more expensive items when I could buy them less expensively. DO YOU? or do you buy the cheapest available? ARE YOU PART OF THE PROBLEM???

2) Who's to blame for not enforcing the laws? BUSH et al!

Wal Mart does more for working families and the economy then any government program has ever done

Keep blaming Pres Bsuh that seems to be your main talking point - and give a pass to thge Dems and the illegals

[TheStripey1]

again...if there were no jobs for them, they wouldn't come. I give no one a free pass, but you seem to ignore the fact that the cost of food will skyrocket, the cost of housing will skyrocket, the hospitality industry will implode, the restaurant industry will implode.... our economy is built on cheap immigrant labor and as long as the american consumer demands lower prices, the employers will continue to offer illegal immigrants low paying jobs to meet those consumer demands.

Good points... but... if we are to stop the problem then someone, a lot of someones, will have to want it to happen... maybe when their job is taken by an illegal alien will the light dawn on them that it is a problem.

Incarcerate the employers and confisgate their property.

No more problem.

[TheStripey1]

Good points... but... if we are to stop the problem then someone, a lot of someones, will have to want it to happen... maybe when their job is taken by an illegal alien will the light dawn on them that it is a problem.

Incarcerate the employers and confisgate their property.

No more problem.

addendum... for some reason, the edit function hung up when I tried to edit this post...

oh yeah... the illegals already here... how about we draft them into the military and send them to Iraq?

[TheStripey1]

and it takes us back to my original point - if we had politicans with the balls to enforce existing laws we would not be talking about this

It is not the fault of the American consumers, it is the fault of ALL the politicans who would rather cave to the open borders crowd. then protect our borders

you mean, gasp... republicans like bush and cheney?

[TheStripey1]

Illegals are costing the taxpayers billions already. It would be cheaper to enforce our laws


:link:

[TheStripey1]

no one is denying that there is a cost.... I am disputing your assertions that it would be "cheaper to just enforce our laws".... the incremental cost to the average american consumer for everything from a 1) head of lettuce to 2) a restaurant meal to 3) lawn care service to 4) a newly built home would skyrocket and those increased costs are not measured.

1) grow your own, americans used to do that
2) eat at home, americans used to do that too
3) plant native grasses that don't need maintenance
4) with subprime loans no longer available to those who shouldn't be buying houses anyway, no problem there either.

[Trigg]

Wal Mart does more for working families and the economy then any government program has ever done

Keep blaming Pres Bsuh that seems to be your main talking point - and give a pass to thge Dems and the illegals

Wal-mart is famous for moving into a small town and lowering prices so dramatically they put the mom and pop places out of business, how exactly does that help working families????????

I am NOT a fan of wal-mart and their business practices and I avoid shopping there.

Bush is to blaim for the illegal problem, not the only one, but he certainly isn't innocent. He ignored it until the public raised so much of a stink that he couldn't sweep it under the run any longer. States have had to take things into their own hands, making and enforcing laws that the federal gov. ignored.

[TheStripey1]

It would be cheaper to deport them then continue to pay the costs of education, social programs, medical care, and those in jail (just to name a few)

snip

Balance of Taxes and Benefits

On average, low-skill immigrant households re*ceived $30,160 per household in immediate govern*ment benefits and services in FY 2004, including direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and popula*tion-based services. By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes. Thus, low-skill immigrant households received nearly three dollars in benefits and services for each dollar in taxes paid.

:link:

[red states rule]

:link:

Already posted

MFM tried to duck those pesky facts

[TheStripey1]

explain that to the lady at the supermarket where lettuce is as expensive as caviar

explain that to the prospective home buyer who cannot get a new home built.

explain that to the diner at a restaurant who can't afford the blue plate special

psssst mfm, we get lettuce from chile now days... if the prospective home buyer can't afford a new home, let him or her buy an existing one... dine elsewhere...

[TheStripey1]

I was also pointing out to MFM who does not believe it would be cheaper to enforce our laws

The public does not support amnesty and wants our laws enforced. I hope the voters remember that on Election day

and vote out the republicans... yep... good idea...

[red states rule]

Wal-mart is famous for moving into a small town and lowering prices so dramatically they put the mom and pop places out of business, how exactly does that help working families????????

I am NOT a fan of wal-mart and their business practices and I avoid shopping there.

Bush is to blaim for the illegal problem, not the only one, but he certainly isn't innocent. He ignored it until the public raised so much of a stink that he couldn't sweep it under the run any longer. States have had to take things into their own hands, making and enforcing laws that the federal gov. ignored.

It is called capitalism, and the shoppers win. When a Wal mart Super Center opens, food prices drop in the area

Wal Mart employes many mor epeople then the mom an dpops can. They pay a huge amount in taxes.

Working families can go to one place, get what they want and need at a fair price

As I have said, BOTH parites are to blame for not enforcing our laws - some seem stuck on their Blame Bush Rants (not you Trigg)

[TheStripey1]

You must have ignored the numbers showing it is more expensive to keep the illegals here then enforcing our laws

anyone can create numbers out of thin air... even you... you didn't provide a link but then, you never do, so nothing new there.

:dance:

[red states rule]

and vote out the republicans... yep... good idea...

Do you always repeat the same rants over and over? OR are you able to actually have a discussion?

[TheStripey1]

expensive to the government, perhaps, but not necessarily to the consumer.

Your link talks about the costs of illegal immigration to the average taxpayer...it does not discuss the costs of NOT having the benefits in lower priced goods and services that illegal immigrants provide.

my bottom line:

deport them... incarcerate the employers and confisgate their property... if consumers have to pay more for their products... so be it.

[red states rule]

anyone can create numbers out of thin air... even you... you didn't provide a link but then, you never do, so nothing new there.

:dance:

Link is post 34

You were to busy ranting about Pres Bush to actually look for it

[TheStripey1]

Where the hell d you think the government gets their money from?

More on the cost to taxpayers

Net Lifetime Costs

Receiving, on average, $19,588 more in immediate benefits than they pay in taxes each year, low-skill immi*grant households impose substantial long-term costs on the U.S. taxpayer. Assuming an average 60-year adult life span for heads of household,[24] the aver*age lifetime costs to the taxpayer will be nearly $1.2 million for each low-skill household, net of any taxes paid.[25]

This calculation assumes that a low-skill immigrant comes to the U.S. in his mid-twenties with a spouse and that both remain in the U.S. for an average of 60 years. Even if low-skill immigrants return home rather than remain in the U.S. permanently, thereby reducing costs, this argument merely underscores how costly low-skill immigrants are to the U.S. taxpayer. The less time these immigrants spend in the U.S., the lower the cost to the taxpayer. Moreover, most current immigration reform proposals would grant legal status to illegal immigrants, increasing their access to welfare and Social Security. These proposals would substantially increase the time that these immigrants remain in the U.S.

Aggregate Annual Net Fiscal Costs

In 2004, there were 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households. As shown in Chart 5, the average net fiscal deficit per household was $19,588. This means that the total annual fiscal deficit (total benefits received minus total taxes paid) for all 4.54 million low-skill immigrant households together equaled $89.1 billion (the deficit of $19,588 per household times 4.54 million households). This sum includes direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services. Over the next ten years, the net cost (benefits minus taxes) to the taxpayer of all low-skill immigrant households will approach one trillion dollars.

Future Retirement Costs of Low-skill Immigrants

As Chart 7 shows, low-skill immigrants at each age create a net burden on taxpayers. However, the fiscal burden becomes most severe among elderly households, where the net annual fiscal deficit soars to $32,686 per household per year. This amounts to roughly $15,000 per year for each elderly low-skill immigrant.

There are currently 8 million non-elderly adult immigrants in low-skill immigrant households.[26] Assuming nor*mal mortality rates, perhaps 7 million of these individuals will live to age 67.[27] After reaching age 67, the normal life expectancy would be approximately 18 years. With an average net cost of roughly $270,000 over 18 years, the net future retirement costs of the 7 million low-skill immi*grants would be around $1.9 trillion.

There are two important assumptions behind this calculation. First, it assumes that current low-skill immi*grants will remain in the U.S. or, at least, receive govern*ment benefits through old age.[28] Second, the calculation assumes that illegal immigrants will, over time, become entitled to government benefits. (This question is dis*cussed in the policy issues section below.) If adult illegal immigrants do not obtain entitlement to Social Security and other government benefits, then the long-term cost to taxpayers will be significantly reduced. This empha*sizes the basic point that the longer low-skill immigrants remain in the U.S., and the more access they have to gov*ernment benefits, the greater the cost to U.S. taxpayers.


:link:you obviously copied and pasted this from somewhere, but again, you fail to show the link... why is that, rsr? :link:

[TheStripey1]

Who are you kidding ?---there isn't a candidate out there who will close our borders----you know why too.

himself... and why? because they need the contributions from the employers.

[red states rule]

:link:you obviously copied and pasted this from somewhere, but again, you fail to show the link... why is that, rsr? :link:

http://www.heritage.org/research/Immigration/sr14.cfm

It is a long article with alot of info

I do not know if you can refrain form your anti Bush rants long enough to read all of it

[TheStripey1]

consumers are selfish and stupid--they see a deal--they take it---they don't give a damn what happens down the line--immediate gratification rules the day.

products made in america used to last longer and people saved for them in order to buy them... now, they use plastic to buy crap made overseas that they don't really need and it breaks almost as soon as they take it out of the box...

[TheStripey1]

what do you think that the citizens spend their money on that they do NOT give to the government?

alot on what they need to survive but even more on crap they don't...

[TheStripey1]

Because they see them as an untapped voting block. That is why Dems are for giving them drivers licenses. When they get a license in most states, they also can register to vote

If any of the candidates try to pass the amnesty bill all hell wil break loose. You saw the outrage last year from both sides when they were shot down, and had to pull the amnesty bill

Other than eliot spitzer, who exactly are you talking about? or are you just beating a dead horse with baseless fear mongering allegations?

[TheStripey1]

If we enforced our laws, they would not have to give as much to the government

Of course libs would find a way to keep the money anyway

psssst... republicans are in charge at the white house... have you forgotten that?

[red states rule]

Other than eliot spitzer, who exactly are you talking about? or are you just beating a dead horse with baseless fear mongering allegations?

If you would ome up for air in between "I hate Bush" rants you would know Dems were all for giving ilegals drivers licenses

When they get the license they can register to vote (Motor Voter law)

[TheStripey1]

do you have any idea how much money it would cost to deport all of the illegal immigrants?

and, as I have said, you have not quantified the savings that the American consumer currently realizes from the goods and services they get via cheap labor.


pass a law to draft them... I bet they would leave voluntarily... PDQ, too...

[TheStripey1]

I don't hear McCain screaming to send the illegals home--the Republicans are equally guilty. If you want to play " liberals are all screwed " you better find a different topic.

BINGO!

[red states rule]

BINGO!

and I dio not hear Dems screamng to send them home either

Or will you blame Pres Bush for that as well?

[TheStripey1]

No dodge it is fact

The laws prevent employers from hiring them, landlords from renting to them, and the government form giving them benefits

They are leaving on their own, but they are going to states where libs welcome them with open arms (and the open wallets of the taxpayers)

:link: got any?

[TheStripey1]

No dodge it is fact

The laws prevent employers from hiring them, landlords from renting to them, and the government form giving them benefits

They are leaving on their own, but they are going to states where libs welcome them with open arms (and the open wallets of the taxpayers)

and obtw... are you claiming that only "blue" states employ illegal aliens? or are the conservatives just as much to blame as those nasty liberals you love to rag on?

[TheStripey1]

so the laws are punishing the employers? And what have I said all along?

no, the laws don't PUNISH the employers or landlords, just says they can't do it...

When they add punishment and enforce it... incarceration and confisgation of property, the employers and landlords will cease.

but...

don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen... it has as much chance of succeeding as republican war supporters suddenly finding their courage and enlisting...


IOW, neva hatchi, GI...

[Trigg]

It is called capitalism, and the shoppers win. When a Wal mart Super Center opens, food prices drop in the area

Wal Mart employes many mor epeople then the mom an dpops can. They pay a huge amount in taxes.

Working families can go to one place, get what they want and need at a fair price





Having lived in small towns for most of my life I can say with certainty that the prices only drop until the competition is driven out, Wal-Mart then goes back to business as usual.

For example:

1. Video games at the wal-mart in town are usually 3-5$ more than 25 miles away in a larger town with competition.

2. I have, more than once, taken an item back to the wal-mart here and purchased the exact same article in another wal-mart because the prices were different.


Yes, wal-mart employs many more people than a mom and pop and they pay more taxes. However the customer ends up paying more in the end.

[red states rule]

:link: got any?

http://thecitizensjournalblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/media-shocker-illegal-immigrants-self.html

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/012177.php

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/20/shocker-enforcing-immigration-laws-results-in-illegal-aliens-leaving/

[red states rule]

Having lived in small towns for most of my life I can say with certainty that the prices only drop until the competition is driven out, Wal-Mart then goes back to business as usual.

For example:

1. Video games at the wal-mart in town are usually 3-5$ more than 25 miles away in a larger town with competition.

2. I have, more than once, taken an item back to the wal-mart here and purchased the exact same article in another wal-mart because the prices were different.


Yes, wal-mart employs many more people than a mom and pop and they pay more taxes. However the customer ends up paying more in the end.

Not where I live Trigg. All the local chain grocery stores (except Giant) have dropped their prices, and the prices are holding steady

Again, competition is the key word

Wal Mart is a boom to the US economy, and lets Amercans keep more of their money

[retiredman]

http://thecitizensjournalblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/media-shocker-illegal-immigrants-self.html

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/012177.php

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/20/shocker-enforcing-immigration-laws-results-in-illegal-aliens-leaving/

three opeds are not really facts, RSR. sorry.

oh...no...wait...let me guess...you will say that conservative opeds are BASED on facts, but those written by liberals are always nothing but a pack of lies. right?

[red states rule]

three opeds are not really facts, RSR. sorry.

oh...no...wait...let me guess...you will say that conservative opeds are BASED on facts, but those written by liberals are always nothing but a pack of lies. right?

They are based on facts

Facts you want to ignore. Tougher laws are driving illegals out of those cities and states and to liberal moonbat cities where they are welcomed as victims

[DragonStryk72]

*sigh* okay, here's my run on this: If you are in the country illegaly, and attempting to keep it secret so as not to get deported, then it is probably a good idea that you do NOT unionize in a way that would put you on a government list. Just my two cents on this.

[red states rule]

*sigh* okay, here's my run on this: If you are in the country illegaly, and attempting to keep it secret so as not to get deported, then it is probably a good idea that you do NOT unionize in a way that would put you on a government list. Just my two cents on this.

If they are here illegaly they have to be booted out of the US

[retiredman]

They are based on facts

Facts you want to ignore. Tougher laws are driving illegals out of those cities and states and to liberal moonbat cities where they are welcomed as victims


yeah...those conservative opeds you continually post in lieu of writing anything of substance on your own...they are ALWAYS based on fact! [/sarcasm off]:lol:

[red states rule]

yeah...those conservative opeds you continually post in lieu of writing anything of substance on your own...they are ALWAYS based on fact! [/sarcasm off]:lol:

Libs ask for a link, they they whine when it is posted

You do hate to see everyone watching you be pawned on this issue don't you?

[manu1959]

to be a union member you must pay union dues and taxes and vote the way they tell you and have a social security card.....

how do felons who broke federal law comply with this requirement.....and if they can't wouldn't this make unions an accomplice to a fugitive felon.....

[retiredman]

Libs ask for a link, they they whine when it is posted

You do hate to see everyone watching you be pawned on this issue don't you?


your links are always to editorials.

and define "pawned".

I think you are misusing a term trying to sound all internet savvy!:laugh2:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn

you just got pwned! :lol:

[red states rule]

your links are always to editorials.

and define "pawned".

I think you are misusing a term trying to sound all internet savvy!:laugh2:

So the Heritage Foundation report (loaded with numbers, IRS figures, and graphs) was a op-ed?

It must scared the crap out you - you ran away from it at full speed

[retiredman]

So the Heritage Foundation report (loaded with numbers, IRS figures, and graphs) was a op-ed?

It must scared the crap out you - you ran away from it at full speed

the heritage foundation report did not discuss the benefits of illegal immigration to the average consumer from the lower prices on everything from lettuce to new houses, to lawn care, to a meal at a restaurant... did it?

[red states rule]

the heritage foundation report did not discuss the benefits of illegal immigration to the average consumer from the lower prices on everything from lettuce to new houses, to lawn care, to a meal at a restaurant... did it?

What benefits? Illegals are costing consumers tens of billions in tax money, with is no where near any savings of goods and services

Not to mention the lives the illegals snuff out with the crimes they commit

Still ducking the numbers and facts as usual

[retiredman]

What benefits? Illegals are costing consumers tens of billions in tax money, with is no where near any savings of goods and services

Not to mention the lives the illegals snuff out with the crimes they commit

Still ducking the numbers and facts as usual

benefits of lower food costs. benefits of cheap labor for home construction, to name just two.

why do you duck those?

[Dilloduck]

What benefits? Illegals are costing consumers tens of billions in tax money, with is no where near any savings of goods and services

Not to mention the lives the illegals snuff out with the crimes they commit

Still ducking the numbers and facts as usual

People are against amnesty yet will gladly buy anything made with illegal labor. Go figure.

[retiredman]

People are against amnesty yet will gladly buy anything made with illegal labor. Go figure.


exactly. they are against amnesty in principle, but when it comes to their grocery bill, they would HATE the effects of it.

[red states rule]

People are against amnesty yet will gladly buy anything made with illegal labor. Go figure.

and some people will blame everyone except the illegals for being here and working in the country

[retiredman]

and some people will blame everyone except the illegals for being here and working in the country

who do YOU "blame" for the inexpensive produce you buy at the supermarket?

[Dilloduck]

and some people will blame everyone except the illegals for being here and working in the country

Talking about the conditions that enable or entice illegals DOES NOT condone or forgive them. Get a clue.

[midcan5]

It is a wacky and hard to understand modern global economy development but at some point if we are to stop it - that is if the will is there - they will have to start punishing businesses and deporting.

The Immigration Charade By Christopher Jencks
State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America
by Patrick J. Buchanan

"If support for legalizing illegal immigrants can run as high as 78 percent, it seems fair to conclude that intense opposition to such a step is confined to a small minority. But if support for deporting illegal immigrants can run as high as 69 percent when no alternative is offered, effective organizing can easily make the anti-amnesty vote look much larger."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20602

[red states rule]

Talking about the conditions that enable or entice illegals DOES NOT condone or forgive them. Get a clue.

I have shown where some states are cauing the illegals to deport themselves, but all I get is more blaming the US consumer for the problem

It is alot easier to get the illegals to leave on thier own, but some here refuse to admit it

[red states rule]

It is a wacky and hard to understand modern global economy development but at some point if we are to stop it - that is if the will is there - they will have to start punishing businesses and deporting.

The Immigration Charade By Christopher Jencks
State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America
by Patrick J. Buchanan

"If support for legalizing illegal immigrants can run as high as 78 percent, it seems fair to conclude that intense opposition to such a step is confined to a small minority. But if support for deporting illegal immigrants can run as high as 69 percent when no alternative is offered, effective organizing can easily make the anti-amnesty vote look much larger."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20602

The fact is, a large majority OPPOSE amnesty for illegals

[Dilloduck]

The fact is, a large majority OPPOSE amnesty for illegals

and then turn around and pay one to work in their yard.

[red states rule]

and then turn around and pay one to work in their yard.

Some people are so obsessed with blaming US citizens for the illegals being here, and not the ones who broke the law by coming here without waiting their turn

[Dilloduck]

Some people are so obsessed with blaming US citizens for the illegals being here, and not the ones who broke the law by coming here without waiting their turn

Who blamed the US citizen for breaking immigration laws ?

[red states rule]

Who blamed the US citizen for breaking immigration laws ?

You express more anger in your posts toward US consumers then the illegals.

[Dilloduck]

You express more anger in your posts toward US consumers then the illegals.

You obviously haven't read all my posts and my last post expressed no anger--just the truth. Do you deny that what I posted was true ?

[red states rule]

You obviously haven't read all my posts and my last post expressed no anger--just the truth. Do you deny that what I posted was true ?


It seems to me you have a habit of bashing US consumers, while seldom holding illegals accountable

We can drive illegals out of America by passing tougher laws and enforcing them. They will leave on their own. A couple of states have done just that

[Dilloduck]

It seems to me you have a habit of bashing US consumers, while seldom holding illegals accountable

We can drive illegals out of America by passing tougher laws and enforcing them. They will leave on their own. A couple of states have done just that

That's because you have a habit of seeing only one side of the whole picture. Speaking the truth is not bashing and I have always held illegals responsible for their own illegal behavior. Your hyper-partisanship makes you blind to the entire truth.

[red states rule]

That's because you have a habit of seeing only one side of the whole picture. Speaking the truth is not bashing and I have always held illegals responsible for their own illegal behavior. Your hyper-partisanship makes you blind to the entire truth.

So it's my fault you would rather blame Amercia for the illegals immigration problem?

It is not "hyper-partisanship" to put the blame where it belongs. Both political parties have dropped the ball and allowed this problem to get worse

But those who bear the most balme are the illegals who violate our law the second they cross our borders

[Dilloduck]

So it's my fault you would rather blame Amercia for the illegals immigration problem?

It is not "hyper-partisanship" to put the blame where it belongs. Both political parties have dropped the ball and allowed this problem to get worse

But those who bear the most balme are the illegals who violate our law the second they cross our borders

No--it's your responsibility for intentionally misunderstanding what I have said. I think America is making a big mistake for tolerating illegal immigration. Is your goal here to convince everyone that illegals are responsible for breaking the law ? Are you claiming that America is not making things easy for them ?

[red states rule]

No--it's your responsibility for intentionally misunderstanding what I have said. I think America is making a big mistake for tolerating illegal immigration. Is your goal here to convince everyone that illegals are responsible for breaking the law ? Are you claiming that America is not making things easy for them ?

OK, we agree on your first point - Amercia made a big mistake for many years by not addressing the illegal immigration issue

Yes, it is ILLEGAL for the illegals to be here. I do not have any pity for them breaking our laws, then demanding we make concessions to them

Some parts of America are no longer making it easy for them. The cities that do make it easy for them are run by Dems. Denver and San Francisco come to mind

It seems to me Dems, some RINO's and the open borders crowd are then ones we need to defeat, then we can make some progress on the issue

[Dilloduck]

OK, we agree on your first point - Amercia made a big mistake for many years by not addressing the illegal immigration issue

Yes, it is ILLEGAL for the illegals to be here. I do not have any pity for them breaking our laws, then demanding we make concessions to them

Some parts of America are no longer making it easy for them. The cities that do make it easy for them are run by Dems. Denver and San Francisco come to mind

It seems to me Dems, some RINO's and the open borders crowd are then ones we need to defeat, then we can make some progress on the issue

Are you calling McCain a RINO ?

[red states rule]

Are you calling McCain a RINO ?

YES

Even though he has retreated on his amnesty bill, I still do not trust him as far as I can throw him

[Dilloduck]

YES

Even though he has retreated on his amnesty bill, I still do not trust him as far as I can throw him

maybe you could include him in your next rant about liberalism. :laugh2:

[red states rule]

maybe you could include him in your next rant about liberalism. :laugh2:

I have

As well as Pres Bush, and the previous Republican Congress

I have openly expressed my opposition to mnay of their polices

I am not a partisan as you think

[actsnoblemartin]

I would slightly disagree.

illegals are not victims, they chose to break the laws, and while perhaps, the employers may be more culpible, my dear gabby, it doesnt make them innocent.

although, i like cupcakes, can i have some gabs? :dance:


They want to punish the illegals and not their employers? That is like distributing poisonous cupcakes and arresting the people who ate them.

[red states rule]

I would slightly disagree.

illegals are not victims, they chose to break the laws, and while perhaps, the employers may be more culpible, my dear gabby, it doesnt make them innocent.

although, i like cupcakes, can i have some gabs? :dance:

at least someone on this thread gets it

[actsnoblemartin]

thank you.

Come to our government enabler sale: where everything is FREE, FREE, FREE and everything must go, its an out of business sale

education, healthcare, housing, safety, sovereignty, children, women, all you can get.

come now, because supplies are limited :coffee:


at least someone on this thread gets it

[red states rule]

thank you.

Come to our government enabler sale: where everything is FREE, FREE, FREE and everything must go, its an out of business sale

education, healthcare, housing, safety, sovereignty, children, women, all you can get.

come now, because supplies are limited :coffee:

and take all you want - the bill will be sent to the US taxpayer

[Pale Rider]

thank you.

Come to our government enabler sale: where everything is FREE, FREE, FREE and everything must go, its an out of business sale

education, healthcare, housing, safety, sovereignty, children, women, all you can get.

come now, because supplies are limited :coffee:


and take all you want - the bill will be sent to the US taxpayer

Two words... "civil war."

Man how I would love that.

[red states rule]

Two words... "civil war."

Man how I would love that.

Some state are doing the right thing Pale

And the ileglas are fleeing their state

http://lonestartimes.com/2007/08/28/illegals-fleeing-arizona-employer-sanctions/

[actsnoblemartin]

works for me, we should have overthrown mexico's government, not iraq's they posed more of a terrorist threat and still do


Two words... "civil war."

Man how I would love that.

[red states rule]

works for me, we should have overthrown mexico's government, not iraq's they posed more of a terrorist threat and still do

All we have to do is have the remaining states pass similiar laws to AZ and OK, and the illegals will leave on their own