The Poor Are Different

[Kathianne]

so goes this one professor's opinion:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/the_sting_of_poverty/?page=1


The sting of poverty
What bees and dented cars can teach about what it means to be poor - and the flaws of economics

By Drake Bennett | March 30, 2008

IMAGINE GETTING A bee sting; then imagine getting six more. You are now in a position to think about what it means to be poor, according to Charles Karelis, a philosopher and former president of Colgate University.

In the community of people dedicated to analyzing poverty, one of the sharpest debates is over why some poor people act in ways that ensure their continued indigence. Compared with the middle class or the wealthy, the poor are disproportionately likely to drop out of school, to have children while in their teens, to abuse drugs, to commit crimes, to not save when extra money comes their way, to not work.

To an economist, this is irrational behavior. It might make sense for a wealthy person to quit his job, or to eschew education or develop a costly drug habit. But a poor person, having little money, would seem to have the strongest incentive to subscribe to the Puritan work ethic, since each dollar earned would be worth more to him than to someone higher on the income scale. Social conservatives have tended to argue that poor people lack the smarts or willpower to make the right choices. Social liberals have countered by blaming racial prejudice and the crippling conditions of the ghetto for denying the poor any choice in their fate. Neoconservatives have argued that antipoverty programs themselves are to blame for essentially bribing people to stay poor.

Karelis, a professor at George Washington University, has a simpler but far more radical argument to make: traditional economics just doesn't apply to the poor. When we're poor, Karelis argues, our economic worldview is shaped by deprivation, and we see the world around us not in terms of goods to be consumed but as problems to be alleviated. This is where the bee stings come in: A person with one bee sting is highly motivated to get it treated. But a person with multiple bee stings does not have much incentive to get one sting treated, because the others will still throb. The more of a painful or undesirable thing one has (i.e. the poorer one is) the less likely one is to do anything about any one problem. Poverty is less a matter of having few goods than having lots of problems.

Poverty and wealth, by this logic, don't just fall along a continuum the way hot and cold or short and tall do. They are instead fundamentally different experiences, each working on the human psyche in its own way. At some point between the two, people stop thinking in terms of goods and start thinking in terms of problems, and that shift has enormous consequences. Perhaps because economists, by and large, are well-off, he suggests, they've failed to see the shift at all.

If Karelis is right, antipoverty initiatives championed all along the ideological spectrum are unlikely to work - from work requirements, time-limited benefits, and marriage and drug counseling to overhauling inner-city education and replacing ghettos with commercially vibrant mixed-income neighborhoods. It also means, Karelis argues, that at one level economists and poverty experts will have to reconsider scarcity, one of the most basic ideas in economics.... The solution is more dollars thrown to the poor, with less accountability.

[red states rule]

After more the 40 years, and over $9 trillion - we are told there are more poor on America

And, as usual, the ONLY answer it to raise taxes, and spend more money on the failed programs that have only cause the probloem to get worse

Liberal logic is a sight to behold - and it attacks your wallet with an insatiable appetite

[avatar4321]

i think many poor people do work hard, they just don't know how to raise themselves up.

wealthy people have problems too. i cant see what problems have to do with poverty. Everyone has problems. everyone has many problems. there isnt a single person on earth that hasnt struggled, hasnt felt pain, hasnt been discouraged, hasnt been selfish, etc.

people arent that different.

[Kathianne]

i think many poor people do work hard, they just don't know how to raise themselves up.

wealthy people have problems too. i cant see what problems have to do with poverty. Everyone has problems. everyone has many problems. there isnt a single person on earth that hasnt struggled, hasnt felt pain, hasnt been discouraged, hasnt been selfish, etc.

people arent that different.

Here's the difference, for the most part those of us raised middle class or higher, blame ourselves for what is wrong in our lives or perhaps another individual. The poor, well it's 'the man.'

[MtnBiker]

If I were stung by a bee and then several more, I would get the hell out of the area where the bees were.

[avatar4321]

Here's the difference, for the most part those of us raised middle class or higher, blame ourselves for what is wrong in our lives or perhaps another individual. The poor, well it's 'the man.'

I dont know. I'm pretty poor. always been poor. Family has struggled all my life. im not even sure we qualified as middle class. But we dont blame others.

[avatar4321]

If I were stung by a bee and then several more, I would get the hell out of the area where the bees were.

And i would pray i wasnt allergic.

[MtnBiker]

And i would pray i wasnt allergic.

Ahmen.

BTW there is a cure to poverty, it is wealth. Not the distribution of wealth but the creation of wealth.

[Kathianne]

I dont know. I'm pretty poor. always been poor. Family has struggled all my life. im not even sure we qualified as middle class. But we dont blame others.

Then it's whether or not poor, rather the mindset. The aspirations may be what 'makes one middle class?'

[diuretic]

The impression I get from the article, and I could well be misunderstanding it, is that when there's no hope then defeatism sets in and there's a sort of numbing effect on the individual. Things can get so bad in economic terms for people that it really doesn't matter anymore, they just lose hope. But if there's a glimmer of hope, if there's a possibility of getting out of the situation they're in, then they will act to help themselves out of it. Of course having a job is a plus in that situation, being unemployed doesn't give anyone much of a chance of improvement in their own circumstances.

Good find Kathianne, that was interesting.

[Kathianne]

The impression I get from the article, and I could well be misunderstanding it, is that when there's no hope then defeatism sets in and there's a sort of numbing effect on the individual. Things can get so bad in economic terms for people that it really doesn't matter anymore, they just lose hope. But if there's a glimmer of hope, if there's a possibility of getting out of the situation they're in, then they will act to help themselves out of it. Of course having a job is a plus in that situation, being unemployed doesn't give anyone much of a chance of improvement in their own circumstances.

Good find Kathianne, that was interesting.

Thanks, I found it interesting too. On the other hand what I got out of it, unintentionally I'm sure by the author, is that the poor have a lower threshold for adversity. See, I wasn't raised rich, I am certainly poorer today than what I was raised, and when I was married I was certainly 'comfortable' financially. Difference is, I don't feel poor. I feel I've made choices and where I am economically today are a result of my own choices throughout my life.

I chose to get married rather than go to law school.

I chose to stay home when my first child was born in 1981, rather than continue my position at $35k per year. I remained at home until 1992 with 3 children.

I filed for divorce in 1992 and chose to go to college full time, rather than work.

I chose teaching, though already licensed in insurance, with 2 degrees.

I chose to work in insurance for 3 years, to make the money for a down payment, rather than go for teaching right away.

I chose to take a pay cut to go with teaching.

I chose to have my parents live with me for over 8 years, precluding moving or even changing teaching positions.

My choices.

[diuretic]

I do think that there is a need for anyone to accept the effect of their decisions, but let's not forget that poverty tends to reproduce itself unless the cycle is broken. I think government has a duty to work to break the poverty cycle and people trapped in it have a duty to work with government or anyone else that's offering a helping hand, no point in them saying they can't do anything about it, that's self-indulgence. If people won't take advantage of programmes such as basic schooling, further education and training, which may be offered by government either free or at an affordable rate, then that's their problem.

I know the situation in some urban parts of the States is very, very different to anything I know so I'm not trying to tell Americans what to do in their own country, just looking at some generalised principles. In my country we're struggling with exactly the problems discussed in this thread in indigenous communities and in non-indigenous communities in our urban areas.

[Kathianne]

I do think that there is a need for anyone to accept the effect of their decisions, but let's not forget that poverty tends to reproduce itself unless the cycle is broken. I think government has a duty to work to break the poverty cycle and people trapped in it have a duty to work with government or anyone else that's offering a helping hand, no point in them saying they can't do anything about it, that's self-indulgence. If people won't take advantage of programmes such as basic schooling, further education and training, which may be offered by government either free or at an affordable rate, then that's their problem.

I know the situation in some urban parts of the States is very, very different to anything I know so I'm not trying to tell Americans what to do in their own country, just looking at some generalised principles. In my country we're struggling with exactly the problems discussed in this thread in indigenous communities and in non-indigenous communities in our urban areas.
and there is the difference. I think 'the poor' have all the choices I did. Really. If they finish 12th grade, they can choose college/trade/work. Their choice. They have the upbeat in low income equals scholarship/grants. They just must make it through the 12th grade. Then they must believe in themselves. No one can give them that final ingredient.

[mundame]

If I were stung by a bee and then several more, I would get the hell out of the area where the bees were.


Well said. That they do not, when a smarter person would, is central to the problem: intelligence is lacking, disproportionately, in poor people.


Duh.

[MtnBiker]

Well said. That they do not, when a smarter person would, is central to the problem: intelligence is lacking, disproportionately, in poor people.


Duh.

I believe most people, including poor people, have the ablility to be intelligent.

[mundame]

and there is the difference. I think 'the poor' have all the choices I did. Really. If they finish 12th grade, they can choose college/trade/work. Their choice. They have the upbeat in low income equals scholarship/grants. They just must make it through the 12th grade. Then they must believe in themselves. No one can give them that final ingredient.


Blacks that finish college make the same or almost the same as whites. Blacks that finish college have high-status jobs MORE OFTEN than whites. Judges, doctors, etc.
(The Bell Curve, Chap. 14) All the job preferences and higher schooling scholarships, presumably.

But finishing college requires a relatively high IQ, and black mean population IQ is shifted fully a standard deviation left on the bell curve: 15 points. Therefore, while there ARE blacks smart enough for college, there are few because there are only 13% blacks in the population total, and because, more importantly, smart enough for college is much further out on the right-side tail of the bell curve of IQ distribution for blacks, and there just aren't going to be very many.

It's probably a big mistake to assume poverty is cultural without taking population intelligence distribution into account. Poverty is, after all, highly correlated with IQ, whatever the race.

[mundame]

I believe most people, including poor people, have the ablility to be intelligent.

What do you mean by that?

Most psychologists don't view intelligence as a voluntary virtue, but as an attribute.

That is, a quality produced by both nature (genetics of one's parents) and nurture (whether you had fetal alcohol syndrome or B vitamin deficiency in utero, or whether you had books as a child and toys, or whether you were beaten a lot and kept in a dark room with a TV).

[MtnBiker]

What do you mean by that?

Most psychologists don't view intelligence as a voluntary virtue, but as an attribute.

That is, a quality produced by both nature (genetics of one's parents) and nurture (whether you had fetal alcohol syndrome or B vitamin deficiency in utero, or whether you had books as a child and toys, or whether you were beaten a lot and kept in a dark room with a TV).

You describe some conditions that would diminish a person's ability to full fill their intelligence. Certianly environmental aspects will have a roll in the development of one's intelligence. I suppose what I mean is all healthy humans without a mental of physical disability can the have ability to maximize their intelligence. Unfortunately, putting a prioriety on developing one's intellegence is not always important to all demographics in society.

[Dilloduck]

Blacks that finish college make the same or almost the same as whites. Blacks that finish college have high-status jobs MORE OFTEN than whites. Judges, doctors, etc.
(The Bell Curve, Chap. 14) All the job preferences and higher schooling scholarships, presumably.

But finishing college requires a relatively high IQ, and black mean population IQ is shifted fully a standard deviation left on the bell curve: 15 points. Therefore, while there ARE blacks smart enough for college, there are few because there are only 13% blacks in the population total, and because, more importantly, smart enough for college is much further out on the right-side tail of the bell curve of IQ distribution for blacks, and there just aren't going to be very many.

It's probably a big mistake to assume poverty is cultural without taking population intelligence distribution into account. Poverty is, after all, highly correlated with IQ, whatever the race.

There are plenty of Americans that are poor, intelligent and quite content. How do they fit in to this theory?

[Hobbit]

I do think that there is a need for anyone to accept the effect of their decisions, but let's not forget that poverty tends to reproduce itself unless the cycle is broken. I think government has a duty to work to break the poverty cycle and people trapped in it have a duty to work with government or anyone else that's offering a helping hand, no point in them saying they can't do anything about it, that's self-indulgence. If people won't take advantage of programmes such as basic schooling, further education and training, which may be offered by government either free or at an affordable rate, then that's their problem.

I know the situation in some urban parts of the States is very, very different to anything I know so I'm not trying to tell Americans what to do in their own country, just looking at some generalised principles. In my country we're struggling with exactly the problems discussed in this thread in indigenous communities and in non-indigenous communities in our urban areas.

And that is where you and I disagree. I think government not only has no duty to do this, but no right to it. It should be the purview of private charity to things like this, since they don't get funding through force and they work better.

[Dilloduck]

And that is where you and I disagree. I think government not only has no duty to do this, but no right to it. It should be the purview of private charity to things like this, since they don't get funding through force and they work better.

Agreed--people's behavior makes it evident that many who are determined to be "poor" have decided to be that way. What business does the govt have in forcing these people to change their preferred life styles ?

[mundame]

There are plenty of Americans that are poor, intelligent and quite content.


Sounds wonderful. How do you know that?

[Roadrunner]

What business does the govt have in forcing these people to change their preferred life styles ?

Government programs don't force people to change their preferred life styles.
That would truly be an innovation! These programs just take our tax dollars, pour them into the poverty hole, and make sure the cycle continues.