From my heart

[truthmatters]

I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

Will the time and space collapse?

Will he give give all the cabinet seats to the bloods and the crips?

Will he call for reparations to begin and give a trillion dollars of our tax money to the blacks in this country. (this would actually be better for the country than to give Iraq a trillion dollars of our money and leave tens of thousands of Iraqi dead and millions hating us for destroying their country, at least the money would be a stimulus to OUR country).


Black people are just too scary.

When they get angry and dont sing and dance a constant stream of praise for this coutnry do people get scared?

When you have a father which treated you like shit yet did feed you and give you a bed you Love them but you can not pretend he was the best thing to ever exsist.

Wake up people they have a completely reasonable set of historical reasons to question Americas shiny shiny image in the mind of many who claim this country is infalable.

America has NEVER been perfect and its the ones who remind us of our flaws who are truely trying to make this country live up to its full potential.

Its time to face the facts and say Yes my dad did feed and clothe me but he never lived up to his potential as a human being because he lowered himself by striking out at me to make himself feel taller.

They are America, they are as American as appple pie. They were just the red headed step child which reminded us that they were not here by choice but are here because We stole his Mom from her first husband. They have been treated pretty shitty by America for generations. 40 acres and a mule never really panned out. I wonder what the black community in this country would look like today if that had actually happened?

hen there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.

Grab a clue! They have good logical reasons not to fully trust every Aim of their shared America.

Think of how we revere the holocaust survivors. Why do we not revere the survivors of the slavery, Tuskegee or any of the completetly blameless people who were treated in such a completetly evil manner????

Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country. Not us No we would have scream out and said "dont do that shit in my name". Does it mean that because it was not me that did this to them that their realitives and surviving family members need to forget it and pretend it is NOT part of their family heritage? Do they need to scrub their minds of their family history and replace it with a shiney pretty image which is a lie? How many of you are proud that your great grandfather came here with nothing in his pocket and within one generation he built with his own sweat and hard work a grocery store which feed three generations of his family? Hell yeah you will NEVER forget his story and will tell it to your childern so they have a sense of scarafice and pride in the stock of hard scrable people they are from.

Now realize that many families have a different history. One day my great great grandfather was 15 and tending the crops for his father when some Men he had never seen before took him and forced him to walk for five days. He was then placed in the hold of a ship and never saw even one of his family ever again. He nearly died of the sickness on the way accrossed the big ocean. When the ship found land he walked off it in chains and from that day on He was never allowed to own anything. He worked and worked and worked. He worked till he would fall asleep within mintues of laying in the hay next to the cow in the barn. He looked forward to the food he was given as the only small pleasure in his day. He did this for 45 years until he died of an poorly attended injury which lead to an infection.

Yes a made up story but there are many like it which are true. While your great grandfather Earned everything he worked for My grandfather worked just as hard and every momment knowing he would NEVER see any improvement in his life or his childrens life yet it did seem to make the man who owned him very wealthy.

Why do black people not have the right to be angry for their great great grandfathers injustices.

I am Proud of my dirt poor Irish heritage. They had nothing and were starving so they came here. They worked hard and made their way accrossed the country until they found a little piece of heaven in Kansas and proceeded to settle in and farm and drink , then drink some more , forget to farm and drink some more. This kinda went on until when my grandma and grandpa were in there mid teens in the same town looked arround and both their families were non exsistant. There they were two teenagers who said to each other What the hell lets get married and be each others family. They hated drink so much they never did drink. They had my dad and a couple of daughters and My Dad proceeded to drink.

I can make up a much prettier story to tell people but why?

This is the truth. This is real life.

If I just tried to forget it all I would never retain the messages of this real life story. I would cheat the bravery of the two teenagers who looked arround themselves and said "WTF you want to get married?". They made the best of it. The only problem was that alcoholism is more than just the damage of the actual drug. Its coldness that growing up in a house were people dont function in an emotionally healthy way.

Slavery did the same thing to families. They were growing up since children in a family were there was a master and a bunch of slaves. The societal problems you see in the black communtity are part and parcel of this generational specture.

Many black families have surpassed this ghost. Just like my ancestors were slaves of alcohol and could not let that bottle go until my brave teenage grandparents made the connection for themselves some families have people who still slip back just like my Dad did.

I loved my Dad. Hes gone now but he sure was a dick to me. I have worked hard in my life not to let him pass his ghost onto me. I also remind my Son that this ghost will try to haunt him too and to be very careful.

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?

[manu1959]

obama or hillary will impliment federal and domestic programs that go against what i belive in......and once implimented they will not be undone.....see social security....

[Immanuel]

obama or hillary will impliment federal and domestic programs that go against what i belive in......and once implimented they will not be undone.....see social security....

Very true... at least they will try, but then what will John McCain implement as well?

Immie

[truthmatters]

You will get the same things from McCain as you have gotten from Bush.

To pretend he will change the Bush direction is folly.

[Immanuel]

You will get the same things from McCain as you have gotten from Bush.

To pretend he will change the Bush direction is folly.

Please, don't act like Obama or Clinton will save the world.

Immie

[truthmatters]

No one will save it but with McCain you will get more of the same that we have seen for 8 years.

[Nukeman]

No one will save it but with McCain you will get more of the same that we have seen for 8 years.
How do you know this as FACT and TRUTH, TM?? Do you have a little time machine that your able to look into the future and tell us poor dumb R's how to think.........

[truthmatters]

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Resource-Budget/Federal-Deficit-Surplus-and-National-Debt.html

History of the facts shows us what you get when you give the gov to Rs.

[Nukeman]

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Resource-Budget/Federal-Deficit-Surplus-and-National-Debt.html

History of the facts shows us what you get when you give the gov to Rs.
BUT..........................................








YOU don't know for FACT!!!!!!!!

[truthmatters]

Those numbers are facts.

They are not mine they are the numbers from all the dependable sources.

You see some Americans actually take politics seriously instead of seeing it as some testostrone ladden attempt to play jedi master on the internets.

Care to join the adult conversation?

[Nukeman]

Those numbers are facts.

They are not mine they are the numbers from all the dependable sources.

You see some Americans actually take politics seriously instead of seeing it as some testostrone ladden attempt to play jedi master on the internets.

Care to join the adult conversation?As soon as there is an adult to convers with maybe I will join in.

What YOU fail to realize is that regardless of PAST perfrmance or voting record YOU can NOT say with 100% CERTAINTY what anyone will do in the future!!!!

Is this too big of a concept for you or should I break it down in to small little bits for YOUR childish mind to COMPREHEND??:slap:

[truthmatters]

The best indicator of future performance is past performance.

You see it also helps to realize McCain has already said he will continue many of the Bush policies which have not produced anything good for this country.

[hjmick]

Who's afraid? Just because someone doesn't support Obama's candidacy doesn't mean they're afraid. For you to jump to the conclusion that because someone does not want to see Obama in the Oval Office because they are afraid of someone "understands the Black anger" is to reduce the debate to a matter of race and nothing else. I don't know anyone who favors another candidate because of the color of Barack's skin or his grasp of Black anger. The people I know don't care about those things, it's his positions on issues that deter their support.

You, on the other hand, seem to want it to be, based on your post, all about race. Well, if you choose to support Obama because of some misplaced sense of White guilt, that is your choice. I choose to make my choice based on the issues and the content of the candidates character. I have no guilt, and why should I? Since when do we visit the sins of the Fathers on the children? No one in my family ever owned slaves, in fact they fought to free them. Did they get a raw deal? Hell yes, there is no denying that. Do they have a right to be angry about it? Sure, a person has the right to be angry about anything they choose. How long are you and others going to excuse the plight and frustrations of many Blacks by blaming them on the spectre of slavery? For decades we as a nation have been working tirelessly to correct the wrongs of the past, and that is good. But I ask you, when will personal responsibility and initiative be the rule rather than the exception? When will you and those like you be satisfied with the laws and efforts made to level the playing field and say, "Hey, we've done what we can, now it's up to you. Get an education, get a job, stop having children out of wedlock, step up and be a father so the next generation will have it a little better and a little easier than the last?" When will you stop treating Blacks like they are victims?

In this day and age, is it not true that every American shares the same basic rights as the next? (Kindly save the issue of Gay marriage for another thread as it is not the topic here.) If it is true, how much more can be done? What do you suggest? There are already racial quotas in some hiring practices and college admissions. I know first hand that minorities get a break on many civil service opportunities. What more can we as a country do to say "We're sorry?"

[Nukeman]

The best indicator of future performance is past performance.

You see it also helps to realize McCain has already said he will continue many of the Bush policies which have not produced anything good for this country.
Key word here is indicator!!!! It does nto say FACT or DEFINITELY WILL. You present things as fact when in reality they are nothing more than YOUR observations and thoughts on something.. You project your FEELINGS and express them as FACT.

[Nukeman]

Who's afraid? Just because someone doesn't support Obama's candidacy doesn't mean they're afraid. For you to jump to the conclusion that because someone does not want to see Obama in the Oval Office because they are afraid of someone "understands the Black anger" is to reduce the debate to a matter of race and nothing else. I don't know anyone who favors another candidate because of the color of Barack's skin or his grasp of Black anger. The people I know don't care about those things, it's his positions on issues that deter their support.

You, on the other hand, seem to want it to be, based on your post, all about race. Well, if you choose to support Obama because of some misplaced sense of White guilt, that is your choice. I choose to make my choice based on the issues and the content of the candidates character. I have no guilt, and why should I? Since when do we visit the sins of the Fathers on the children? No one in my family ever owned slaves, in fact they fought to free them. Did they get a raw deal? Hell yes, there is no denying that. Do they have a right to be angry about it? Sure, a person has the right to be angry about anything they choose. How long are you and others going to excuse the plight and frustrations of many Blacks by blaming them on the spectre of slavery? For decades we as a nation have been working tirelessly to correct the wrongs of the past, and that is good. But I ask you, when will personal responsibility and initiative be the rule rather than the exception? When will you and those like you be satisfied with the laws and efforts made to level the playing field and say, "Hey, we've done what we can, now it's up to you. Get an education, get a job, stop having children out of wedlock, step up and be a father so the next generation will have it a little better and a little easier than the last?" When will you stop treating Blacks like they are victims?

In this day and age, is it not true that every American shares the same basic rights as the next? (Kindly save the issue of Gay marriage for another thread as it is not the topic here.) If it is true, how much more can be done? What do you suggest? There are already racial quotas in some hiring practices and college admissions. I know first hand that minorities get a break on many civil service opportunities. What more can we as a country do to say "We're sorry?"Great post Mick. I don't have the time to say the same thing over and over to her. She just doesn't understand that people can hear the same thing and come to 2 different conclusions based on their life and experiences!!!!

[truthmatters]

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?




Hjmick , I never asked you to vote for Obama here. I asked for people to realize what and why these things are said and accepted in Black churches.

Please can we deal with what we really say to each ohter and not pretend and build stawmen to attack.

When we deal with the real problem it will get solved when we pretend that this is about blacks hating all whites and everything American because they are chasing these ghosts then we destory our country.

Will we listen to each other or merely find a way to open the healing wound to cause more pain to everyone?

[Pale Rider]

Ya know something TM... it just became perfectly clear to me... you're fuckin' cracked. :cuckoo:

[Yurt]

truthmatters;220370]I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

uh, bill clinton.....


The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

of course he hates america. his loyalty, just like obama, is to the motherland, not america. someone that does not hate america would never had said those awful, untruthful accusations.

black people created aids to kill the white folk



your problem is that you are too emotional, you have allowed yourself to get caught up in obama's sermons. take a step back and really consider what he stands for and why would he choose this guy as his closest advisor.

[truthmatters]

Oh I know that is what happens when you share personal stuff on these sites but I think you will find many of us on here have faced travails in our lives.

Many here have shared the things they face in life such as brain chemical imbalences, depression and past hurts.

I dont mind the ridicule its just part of life and I learned that much earlier than most. I do prefer healing and taking as many people along with me as possible. Them leaning on me , Me leaning on them.

Lean my brother, Ill be there.

[Pale Rider]

Oh I know that is what happens when you share personal stuff on these sites but I think you will find many of us on here have faced travails in our lives.

Many here have shared the things they face in life such as brain chemical imbalences, depression and past hurts.

I dont mind the ridicule its just part of life and I learned that much earlier than most. I do prefer healing and taking as many people along with me as possible. Them leaning on me , Me leaning on them.

Lean my brother, Ill be there.

You have to be standing to be able to have someone lean on you... not bent over like you.

You're example is figurative, just like mine.

[Dilloduck]

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?




Hjmick , I never asked you to vote for Obama here. I asked for people to realize what and why these things are said and accepted in Black churches.

Please can we deal with what we really say to each ohter and not pretend and build stawmen to attack.

When we deal with the real problem it will get solved when we pretend that this is about blacks hating all whites and everything American because they are chasing these ghosts then we destory our country.

Will we listen to each other or merely find a way to open the healing wound to cause more pain to everyone?
ah--"Issues" with Dad--who could EVER have figured that one out .:rolleyes:

[Classact]

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?




Hjmick , I never asked you to vote for Obama here. I asked for people to realize what and why these things are said and accepted in Black churches.

Please can we deal with what we really say to each ohter and not pretend and build stawmen to attack.

When we deal with the real problem it will get solved when we pretend that this is about blacks hating all whites and everything American because they are chasing these ghosts then we destory our country.

Will we listen to each other or merely find a way to open the healing wound to cause more pain to everyone?Ya know something... my dad was in the KKK before I was born. As I was growing up my brother and I used to get our lips busted with the back of dads hand for correcting him for using the N word (that was in the 50's). In the 60's my dad was reprogrammed by All in the family, a show on network TV that went through all of the race and social ills... Now dad wouldn't have walked in a MLK march but he transitioned... He survived me marring a Korean woman and I'm not too sure how he would feel about me marring a Puerto Rican with black Afro American family members?

My dad, rest his soul was a devout Democrat and I don't know how he would vote if Obama were the nominee.

My personal ethic is not to pre judge anyone but I do fall back on the way I was reared with demanding standards that included not blaming anyone for your own failures... When white people see someone like Rev. Wright and hear all blame for everything than personal responsibility they are moved away from accepting blacks as an equal. It is like the hell raised, perhaps rightly for the guy making comments about nappy headed hos and then hear this Reverends ranting about whites being unchallenged by a presidential candidate he harms the blacks by not putting the Reverend in check for his statements... If harmony is the desire then don't pre judge but call a spade a spade... Obama failed to call his spade a spade.

[Immanuel]

ah--"Issues" with Dad--who could EVER have figured that one out .:rolleyes:

I believe she said that her dad was a life-long Republican. Maybe this explains a lot about her hatred of Republicans? Maybe she has underlying issues? :rolleyes: :)

Immie

[Dilloduck]

I believe she said that her dad was a life-long Republican. Maybe this explains a lot about her hatred of Republicans? Maybe she has underlying issues? :rolleyes: :)

Immie

I'm sure she will claim that she's is past all that now and makes her decisions totally on the facts. :laugh2:

[truthmatters]

Ya know something... my dad was in the KKK before I was born. As I was growing up my brother and I used to get our lips busted with the back of dads hand for correcting him for using the N word (that was in the 50's). In the 60's my dad was reprogrammed by All in the family, a show on network TV that went through all of the race and social ills... Now dad wouldn't have walked in a MLK march but he transitioned... He survived me marring a Korean woman and I'm not too sure how he would feel about me marring a Puerto Rican with black Afro American family members?

My dad, rest his soul was a devout Democrat and I don't know how he would vote if Obama were the nominee.

My personal ethic is not to pre judge anyone but I do fall back on the way I was reared with demanding standards that included not blaming anyone for your own failures... When white people see someone like Rev. Wright and hear all blame for everything than personal responsibility they are moved away from accepting blacks as an equal. It is like the hell raised, perhaps rightly for the guy making comments about nappy headed hos and then hear this Reverends ranting about whites being unchallenged by a presidential candidate he harms the blacks by not putting the Reverend in check for his statements... If harmony is the desire then don't pre judge but call a spade a spade... Obama failed to call his spade a spade.


Heres the thing thought CL the rev never said he hated white people. He said we are a country ran by rich white people. That is true. He said he believed that HIV was used to attack black people. I have never looked into it very deeply but I have heard a little about the thoery and I dont think it is any wierder than things like people saying Balcks only vote for democrats because they want a free ride.

He never told his congregation to hate white people that I heard. I bet as a preacher he told people to love all gods creatures which includes white people. His church helped white poor people in the community as well as people of all colors. He is not the sum total of a few words. Niether was your dad. It took him hearing all the sides aired without fear of condemnation to see past some of the ghosts he was given as a child. I bet I would have like your dad.

I thnak you for telling me these things and I dont think anyone should vote on this issue alone. But I do think that condeming peoples whoole lives on what they say or what their preacher said on a couple of occasions does nothing but make this country shallow and weak.

[truthmatters]

I believe she said that her dad was a life-long Republican. Maybe this explains a lot about her hatred of Republicans? Maybe she has underlying issues? :rolleyes: :)

Immie

Close Immy, My Dad was a consevative democrat and my Mom is a Goldwater conservitive R.

I love them both but I respected my Mom more even thought I dont agree with much of her politics.

I was born in the soul a liberal. I can remember childhood incidents were I can look back and realize I was lookin g through a liberals eyes all my life.

Im a proud bleeding heart liberal.

[Immanuel]

Close Immy, My Dad was a consevative democrat and my Mom is a Goldwater conservitive R.

I love them both but I respected my Mom more even thought I dont agree with much of her politics.

I was born in the soul a liberal. I can remember childhood incidents were I can look back and realize I was lookin g through a liberals eyes all my life.

Im a proud bleeding heart liberal.

But, my dear friend, you are also blind to the goodness that comes from all people whether they be Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative. You refuse to let your bleeding heart feel compassion for those who are different than you.

Hey! Guess that makes you a true liberal after all.

Liberals always talk about themselves as being tolerant, but when you get right down to it, they are only tolerant of those they like and who are like them.

Immie

[Classact]

Heres the thing thought CL the rev never said he hated white people. He said we are a country ran by rich white people. That is true. He said he believed that HIV was used to attack black people. I have never looked into it very deeply but I have heard a little about the thoery and I dont think it is any wierder than things like people saying Balcks only vote for democrats because they want a free ride.

He never told his congregation to hate white people that I heard. I bet as a preacher he told people to love all gods creatures which includes white people. His church helped white poor people in the community as well as people of all colors. He is not the sum total of a few words. Niether was your dad. It took him hearing all the sides aired without fear of condemnation to see past some of the ghosts he was given as a child. I bet I would have like your dad.

I thnak you for telling me these things and I dont think anyone should vote on this issue alone. But I do think that condeming peoples whoole lives on what they say or what their preacher said on a couple of occasions does nothing but make this country shallow and weak.I don't know what to think about Obama not putting the Rev. in check. By not challenging him he is agreeing to his agenda... he admitted he had many things he disagreed with the minister on but never mentioned challenging him. He had his kids there and his wife and as we know his wife made a negative statement about America too. When Obama learned the "agenda of the church" being anti white that was mentioned on the church by-laws in another thread he should have challenged it. By not doing so he harmed the American race relations between whites and blacks. I think you have to look at it as a white person when you hear what the Rev. says these things indicating the government is equal to the white majority that runs it and then the church by-laws that demands the government be overthrown or change to the black church rules.

To me the most negative thing I've heard in recent times that affect my views on blacks are those of the Rev. and those of welfare blacks being housed in hotels following hurricane Katrina using room service on the tax payer dime. Both pissed me off to the core. And today on the news when a black man shot and killed a 17 year old boy in the face and only got a two year jail term... this is simply not right.

[stephanie]

I didn't have anything to do with slavery.
My mother didn't have anything to do with slavery..
My grandmother didn't have anything to with slavery.
My great grandmother didn't have anything to do with slavery..

How many more generations are going to have to pay for something they were not involved with...

[Yurt]

Close Immy, My Dad was a consevative democrat and my Mom is a Goldwater conservitive R.

I love them both but I respected my Mom more even thought I dont agree with much of her politics.

I was born in the soul a liberal. I can remember childhood incidents were I can look back and realize I was lookin g through a liberals eyes all my life.

Im a proud bleeding heart liberal.

maybe you are just compassionate and "think" you are liberal because you have been brainwashed by the liberal media and liberal schools. i was absolutely liberal (still retain some liberal social views) before lawschool, because that is what i learned in school. well lawschool was uber liberal. however, there was this guy that was staunch republican and he had no qualms about going to bat against professor. he was roundly hated by 90% of my class. at first i hated him too. then, after clerking for vietnam vet lawyer for the summer, my views changed. enter second con law: we had an extremely liberal prof, new/young, so he thought he would show us how cool he was by going toe to toe with the republican. more often than not, the republican had the guy saying: well, that is a good point, however....

fact is, this guy knew the law, knew this country's history, constitution like i have never seen. when you gain knowledge like that, you, like i, will find it hard think you are liberal.

[hjmick]

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I do not believe that the good Reverend Wright hates America. I do believe he holds a deep seeded animosity and possible hatred for White people. I do not believe tha Obama holds these same feelings for Whites. I do believe that he changes his ideas of how far Blacks have come in America whenever it suits the issue or campaign. For Obama, in my opinion, race is not an issue unless it will garner him votes or if it will serve to distract from an issue or critic. On the one hand he declares that Blacks have already come "90 percent of the way" to racial equality, and yet on Tuesday he made it sound as if it is an ever widening chasm.


We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

America is constantly changing, growing, attempting to live up to it's potential and it's ideals. From it's inception this country has been in a state of flux.

As Randy Newman says, we may not be perfect but Heaven knows we try.


So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

You should know by now that I do not play that game.


Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?

You're kidding, right? I can barely tolerate five days with my own family and now you want me to adopt the whole country? ;) LOL


Hjmick , I never asked you to vote for Obama here. I asked for people to realize what and why these things are said and accepted in Black churches.

While this may have been your intent, your opening sentence smacks of an attempt to shame folks into voting for Obama:


I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

As for what is said and accepted in some Black churches, in what way do the words of Reverend Wright and others of his ilk help the Black community? How are the ideas they plant in the minds of their congregation serving to further their cause? If they are want to close the alleged final 10% of the equality gap, how do the words of hate, blame, and anger accomplish this?


Please can we deal with what we really say to each ohter and not pretend and build stawmen to attack.

When we deal with the real problem it will get solved when we pretend that this is about blacks hating all whites and everything American because they are chasing these ghosts then we destory our country.

Will we listen to each other or merely find a way to open the healing wound to cause more pain to everyone?

No strawman, just issues and thoughts that contribute to the discussion.

I do not believe that all Blacks hate all Whites just as I do not believe that all Whites hate all Blacks. At the same time, there comes a moment when people have to stop laying the blame for their woes at the feet of others and do for themselves.

[Sitarro]

Close Immy, My Dad was a consevative democrat and my Mom is a Goldwater conservitive R.

I love them both but I respected my Mom more even thought I dont agree with much of her politics.

I was born in the soul a liberal. I can remember childhood incidents were I can look back and realize I was lookin g through a liberals eyes all my life.

Im a proud bleeding heart liberal.

You are an example of why blacks vote for Democrats in such a huge block. As with all people, there are those that look for a bleeding heart to take advantage of. Others take heart in the fact that you will go out of your way to understand them. Others see you as a joke and will use you to get what they want.

Like I have said numerous times, I am a minority where I work. At least 95% of the people I work with, and I am talking about thousands, are either black or hispanic. I work with people from all over this country and all around the world. Guam, Colombia, Armenia, assorted countries in Africa, Mexico, Britain, Guatemala, Belize, the Philippines, Honduras, China....... these are the people I am around on a daily basis.

Most of these, when asked, are voters for the Democrat party........ most couldn't give a shit about politics and know very little about it. They have admitted to me that their parents and friends vote Democrat so they do.

Most of the Africans that are now citizens tell me they are Republican, how about that. They are easily the hardest working people I have ever met, they are very thankful to be here, they love their lives here. They think American blacks are spoiled whiners, lazy, liars and they don't understand how they can be so angry. I'm sure you will say I have made this up but I haven't. We have a lot of down time and I talk with they people I work with, I have an interest in what drives people..... that's just how I am. Your accusing me of racism is a joke and just makes me laugh because I know where it's coming from, a liberal guilt ridden white girl. If one of my African friends accused me of that I would be much more offended.

What always amazes me is the fact that the people that were the most wronged of anyone in this country, the American Indian, rarely are heard from. Rarely do you hear a complaint or whining. You also don't see the pandering to them by the democrats....... no free press or easy votes. But then again, these are a proud people and know the weakness of reliving the past. They have buried it and are continuing their lives........ they do smile when the white man comes into their casinos and drop a bunch of money.

[Yurt]

Most of the Africans that are now citizens tell me they are Republican, how about that. They are easily the hardest working people I have ever met, they are very thankful to be here, they love their lives here. They think American blacks are spoiled whiners, lazy, liars and they don't understand how they can be so angry.


even though i met only a dozen or so in college, every single one of them said the same thing. "african" "americans" they have it so easy, my family gave much for me to come here, why am i not entitled like them?


i think eddie murphy once joked about american "african americans" really going back to africa and "bonding"

wrong, what is there in common? nothing.

[Pale Rider]

I think anyone that HAS to refer to themselves as a hyphenated American, putting the hyphenated country other than America in FRONT of America, is not at all an American.

So black people don't like "white" people to call them nigger, but it's OK for them to call each other that. It's a term of endearment. OK... so whites refrain and start to call them negro. Well they don't like to be called negro either, so just say black people. No... that's not going to do either. You must call them AFRICAN AMERICANS. I just think it's a huge load of shit, all the way around from start to finish, and I also think the whole thing is based in racism AGAINST white people. Because no matter what we do, no matter what we call them, no matter if we all lay down in the dirt and let them walk on us, it will NEVER be enough. Just ask hussein's preacher... he'll tell you all about it.

[CockySOB]

Those numbers are facts.

They are not mine they are the numbers from all the dependable sources.

You see some Americans actually take politics seriously instead of seeing it as some testostrone ladden attempt to play jedi master on the internets.

Care to join the adult conversation?

Why? Are you asking if you can join our adult conversations?

[glockmail]

I just dont understand what people are affraid of. ....
This is politics, chickiepoo. Your "heart" has no fucking business here. :slap:

[jimnyc]

I just dont understand

I snipped the rest of the crap to spare everyone from seeing your rambling a second time. We hit the root of your problem in your opening sentence.

I'm glad you said this was from your heart and not your brain, although it seems more like it came from your ass.

[Said1]

But, my dear friend, you are also blind to the goodness that comes from all people whether they be Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative. You refuse to let your bleeding heart feel compassion for those who are different than you.

Hey! Guess that makes you a true liberal after all.

Liberals always talk about themselves as being tolerant, but when you get right down to it, they are only tolerant of those they like and who are like them.

Immie


Why does it always seem like those who claim to be the most enlightened wind up being the most superficial and judgmental? Not very Zen if you ask me. :laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Why does it always seem like those who claim to be the most enlightened wind up being the most superficial and judgmental? Not very Zen if you ask me. :laugh2:

It's the Zen of no Zen :laugh2:


I see a cloud.

It looks like a puppy

If you don't think it looks like a puppy

You are evil and stupid person

I will accept you anyway but you have to say the cloud is a puppy.

[Pale Rider]

No wonder we don't have a lot of liberals on this board. Liberals don't like to be exposed. They'd rather keep their true motives hidden, and here, they get stripped, exposed, stood under the light of the truth and held there for all to see their hypocrisy and lies.

Not much fun I imagine... but, they ask for it.

[CockySOB]

No wonder we don't have a lot of liberals on this board. Liberals don't like to be exposed. They'd rather keep their true motives hidden, and here, they get stripped, exposed, stood under the light of the truth and held there for all to see their hypocrisy and lies.

Not much fun I imagine... but, they ask for it.

Amen!

BTW, seen truthmatters lately?

[Yurt]

=Pale Rider;220537]I think anyone that HAS to refer to themselves as a hyphenated American, putting the hyphenated country other than America in FRONT of America, is not at all an American.

I agree. Irish, whatnot americans, say that as a "pass", because first and foremost, they know they are American. regardless of how they came to this country, a slave, a slave of a rich "lord". they came. the asians are still coming.... the japanese are still coming.... camps......

why do blacks complain about asians owning stores in "their hood?"



So black people don't like "white" people to call them nigger, but it's OK for them to call each other that. It's a term of endearment. OK... so whites refrain and start to call them negro. Well they don't like to be called negro either, so just say black people. No... that's not going to do either. You must call them AFRICAN AMERICANS. I just think it's a huge load of shit, all the way around from start to finish, and I also think the whole thing is based in racism AGAINST white people.


Pale has a point, and you leebs know it.

prejudice is alive and well, welcome to reality. i find it ""ironic"" (not really, i find it sad) that "african" Americans complain about asians operating and owning stores in "black" neighborhoods.

ask africans about bushman..................

[avatar4321]

i dont believe your assessment thatn black people are scary at all.

I don't understand why the left is so obsessed with race when people are people. We all have the potential to reach our dreams or stay mediocre. We change the people around us regarldess of whether we do so for the good or the bad. that can't be helped. what we can do is choose which way we are going to change it. that starts first with ourselves and then with those around us.

The only thing that can stop that is a heavy handed government working against the people. This is why socialism must be stopped at all cost. We cannot become dependent on government or we will destroy ourselves.

[avatar4321]

oh and i dont think it matters as much that we are proud of our ancestors and heritages as much as it matters that we make our ancestors and children proud of us.

[JohnDoe]

i dont believe your assessment thatn black people are scary at all.

I don't understand why the left is so obsessed with race when people are people. We all have the potential to reach our dreams or stay mediocre. We change the people around us regarldess of whether we do so for the good or the bad. that can't be helped. what we can do is choose which way we are going to change it. that starts first with ourselves and then with those around us.

The only thing that can stop that is a heavy handed government working against the people. This is why socialism must be stopped at all cost. We cannot become dependent on government or we will destroy ourselves.
Define socialism please.

Do you mean we should not socially provide safety with cops and fireman?

Do you mean we should not socially provide a postal service?

Do you mean we should not socially pave the roads across our country?

Do you mean we should not socially take care of the federal highways and bridges across our country?

Do you mean we should not socially provide healthcare through medicare for the senior citizens and leave them with no medical insurance at all? Becasue the INSURANCE companies have REFUSED to cover the elderly with medical insurance....

Do you mean we should not socially provide for an education to our citizens, though it be at a State level, it is still a social program....?

Do you mean we should not socially provide for a higher education by having State colleges and universities....?

Do you mean we should not socially give out pell grants and loans for students wanting a higher education?

Do you mean we should not socially govern the 40 hour work week, child labor abuses?

Do you mean we should not socially provide oil companies with subsidies?

Do you mean we should not socially bail out wall street and the banks with 30 billion in our money?

Do you mean we should not socially take care of the Iraqi schools, Iraqi healthcare, Iraqi safety, Iraqi roads, Iraqi Hospitals etc?

Just what is socialism Avatar?
jd

[Trigg]

I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

Will the time and space collapse?

Will he give give all the cabinet seats to the bloods and the crips?

Will he call for reparations to begin and give a trillion dollars of our tax money to the blacks in this country. (this would actually be better for the country than to give Iraq a trillion dollars of our money and leave tens of thousands of Iraqi dead and millions hating us for destroying their country, at least the money would be a stimulus to OUR country).


Black people are just too scary.

When they get angry and dont sing and dance a constant stream of praise for this coutnry do people get scared?

When you have a father which treated you like shit yet did feed you and give you a bed you Love them but you can not pretend he was the best thing to ever exsist.

Wake up people they have a completely reasonable set of historical reasons to question Americas shiny shiny image in the mind of many who claim this country is infalable.

America has NEVER been perfect and its the ones who remind us of our flaws who are truely trying to make this country live up to its full potential.


They are America, they are as American as appple pie. They were just the red headed step child which reminded us that they were not here by choice but are here because We stole his Mom from her first husband. They have been treated pretty shitty by America for generations. 40 acres and a mule never really panned out. I wonder what the black community in this country would look like today if that had actually happened?

hen there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.

Grab a clue! They have good logical reasons not to fully trust every Aim of their shared America.


Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country. Not us No we would have scream out and said "dont do that shit in my name". Does it mean that because it was not me that did this to them that their realitives and surviving family members need to forget it and pretend it is NOT part of their family heritage? Do they need to scrub their minds of their family history and replace it with a shiney pretty image which is a lie? How many of you are proud that your great grandfather came here with nothing in his pocket and within one generation he built with his own sweat and hard work a grocery store which feed three generations of his family? Hell yeah you will NEVER forget his story and will tell it to your childern so they have a sense of scarafice and pride in the stock of hard scrable people they are from.

?


Wow, if this isn't a shining example of white guilt I don't know what is.

TM ,

Your somewhat right on a few points. America is not perfect, never was and never will be. Our leaders of both parties have made monumental mistakes in our history.

However the thing you just don't have a handle on is "Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country". NOTHING that happened in the past before I got here is MY failing.

Blacks are correct that America wasn't fair to their ancesters, but they can't blaim current white America for the sins of the past. I also don't think Holocost survivors should hate current Germans, and I don't think most do. This preacher was preaching hatred for white America by the statement "with black on black violence we arn't fighting the REAL ENEMY."

People here who have decided not to vote Obama are making their decision based on political views, not race, which you seem to be doing out of a misguided attempt to right the wrongs of America.

I would have gladly voted Colin Powell if he had run. I think he would have done an amazing job.

This isn't about fearing blacks. It's about ISSUES

[Trigg]

TM,

Your rant about the Tuskegee Airman was wrong. The experiment on Syphillis was not performed on them.


In 1932, when the study started, standard treatments for syphilis were toxic, dangerous, and of questionable effectiveness. Part of the original goal of the study was to determine if patients were better off not being treated with these toxic remedies.

By 1947, penicillin had become the standard treatment for syphilis. Prior to this discovery, syphilis frequently led to a chronic, painful and fatal multisystem disease. Rather than treat all syphilitic subjects with penicillin and close the study, or split off a control group for testing penicillin; the Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin and information about penicillin, purely to continue to study how the disease spreads and kills. Participants were also prevented from accessing syphilis treatment programs that were available to other people in the area. The study continued until 1972

I'm not defending the experiment, but your assertion that hero's of war were treated this way is wrong.

[Said1]

Weren't all those involved in that experiment black - 400 black men? I sat through a lecture on that subject last semester, but I don't remember if there were any white people involved in the same manner.

[theHawk]

hen there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.

Grab a clue! They have good logical reasons not to fully trust every Aim of their shared America.

Think of how we revere the holocaust survivors. Why do we not revere the survivors of the slavery, Tuskegee or any of the completetly blameless people who were treated in such a completetly evil manner????


What are you talking about?

[mundame]

...then there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.


Incorrect; you might want to Google that research.

The black men studied already had syphilis: they had contracted it all by themselves via illicit sex and were giving it to their families all on their own.

It was research to see what syphilis did, what was its natural history.

The ethical problem is a modern one: having diagnosed that these men had syphilis, the docs did not cure them, which they could have --- syphilis is fairly easily cured with modern antibiotics. The men got syphilis on their own, but once having discovered they had it, modern ethics says we have to cure them, and that wasn't done.

[theHawk]

The Tuskegee Airmen I've seen are all very proud of their country, much more so than TM. And I've never heard them bitch about some conspiracy theory like this.

[theHawk]

This isn't about fearing blacks. It's about ISSUES

Yes, but liberal moonbats like TM can't even comprehend the idea that we dispise Obama's socialist views. She wants to see us as all racists, so in her mind thats the 'real' reason we don't like him.

[Immanuel]

Incorrect; you might want to Google that research.

The black men studied already had syphilis: they had contracted it all by themselves via illicit sex and were giving it to their families all on their own.

It was research to see what syphilis did, what was its natural history.

The ethical problem is a modern one: having diagnosed that these men had syphilis, the docs did not cure them, which they could have --- syphilis is fairly easily cured with modern antibiotics. The men got syphilis on their own, but once having discovered they had it, modern ethics says we have to cure them, and that wasn't done.

That is what I remember reading of the issue. It was not that we gave them Syphilis. It was that we knew they had it, then pretended to treat them while in fact giving them a treatment that did nothing at all, while others got treatment that was actually expected to cure them. In effect it was a sugar pill. The reason the issue was racial was that the men treated with the sugar pills were mostly if not all black while the group actually treated was made up of whites.

That is not given as fact, but rather what I remember of the stories I have seen.

The rest of you can Google the truth if you care.

Immie

[manu1959]

Incorrect; you might want to Google that research.

The black men studied already had syphilis: they had contracted it all by themselves via illicit sex and were giving it to their families all on their own.

It was research to see what syphilis did, what was its natural history.

The ethical problem is a modern one: having diagnosed that these men had syphilis, the docs did not cure them, which they could have --- syphilis is fairly easily cured with modern antibiotics. The men got syphilis on their own, but once having discovered they had it, modern ethics says we have to cure them, and that wasn't done.

actually the hypocratic oath is esentially ..... "do no harm" .... they did treat them .... they didn't cure them ...... the racist part of the treatment is the the blacks were the control group ......

[mundame]

The reason the issue was racial was that the men treated with the sugar pills were mostly if not all black while the group actually treated was made up of whites.



No, there was no white group, only 399 black male sharecroppers. They weren't airmen; the black Tuskeegee Institute founded by Booker T. Washington cooperated and the study was named after it.

Here you go -- http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html
The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

<!--BodyText-->
For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,”<SUP class=fnr>1</SUP> their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all. The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they die.”
Using Human Beings as Laboratory Animals

The true nature of the experiment had to be kept from the subjects to ensure their cooperation. The sharecroppers' grossly disadvantaged lot in life made them easy to manipulate. Pleased at the prospect of free medical care—almost none of them had ever seen a doctor before—these unsophisticated and trusting men became the pawns in what James Jones, author of the excellent history on the subject, Bad Blood, identified as “the longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings in medical history.”

The study was meant to discover how syphilis affected blacks as opposed to whites—the theory being that whites experienced more neurological complications from syphilis whereas blacks were more susceptible to cardiovascular damage. How this knowledge would have changed clinical treatment of syphilis is uncertain. Although the PHS touted the study as one of great scientific merit, from the outset its actual benefits were hazy. It took almost forty years before someone involved in the study took a hard and honest look at the end results, reporting that “nothing learned will prevent, find, or cure a single case of infectious syphilis or bring us closer to our basic mission of controlling venereal disease in the United States.” When the experiment was brought to the attention of the media in 1972, news anchor Harry Reasoner described it as an experiment that “used human beings as laboratory animals in a long and inefficient study of how long it takes syphilis to kill someone.”
A Heavy Price in the Name of Bad Science

By the end of the experiment, 28 of the men had died directly of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis. How had these men been induced to endure a fatal disease in the name of science? To persuade the community to support the experiment, one of the original doctors admitted it “was necessary to carry on this study under the guise of a demonstration and provide treatment.” At first, the men were prescribed the syphilis remedies of the day—bismuth, neoarsphenamine, and mercury—but in such small amounts that only 3 percent showed any improvement. These token doses of medicine were good public relations and did not interfere with the true aims of the study. Eventually, all syphilis treatment was replaced with “pink medicine”—aspirin. To ensure that the men would show up for a painful and potentially dangerous spinal tap, the PHS doctors misled them with a letter full of promotional hype: “Last Chance for Special Free Treatment.” The fact that autopsies would eventually be required was also concealed. As a doctor explained, “If the colored population becomes aware that accepting free hospital care means a post-mortem, every darky will leave Macon County…” Even the Surgeon General of the United States participated in enticing the men to remain in the experiment, sending them certificates of appreciation after 25 years in the study.
Following Doctors' Orders

It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years. The promise of recognition by a prestigious government agency may have obscured the troubling aspects of the study for some. A Tuskegee doctor, for example, praised “the educational advantages offered our interns and nurses as well as the added standing it will give the hospital.” Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: “we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor's instructions!” It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss.

One of the most chilling aspects of the experiment was how zealously the PHS kept these men from receiving treatment. When several nationwide campaigns to eradicate venereal disease came to Macon County, the men were prevented from participating. Even when penicillin was discovered in the 1940s—the first real cure for syphilis—the Tuskegee men were deliberately denied the medication. During World War II, 250 of the men registered for the draft and were consequently ordered to get treatment for syphilis, only to have the PHS exempt them. Pleased at their success, the PHS representative announced: “So far, we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment.”
************************************************** ****

The last part was when it got really ugly --- when they could have cured the disease but deliberately prevented cure.

I had not been aware till I read this article that it seems to have actually been predominantly a BLACK-run study, not an example of white racism!! I suppose the grant paid salaries and paid for facilities at Tuskeegee, and that motivated the blacks who apparently actually carried out the work.

[hjmick]

The last part was when it got really ugly --- when they could have cured the disease but deliberately prevented cure.

I had not been aware till I read this article that it seems to have actually been predominantly a BLACK-run study, not an example of white racism!! I suppose the grant paid salaries and paid for facilities at Tuskeegee, and that motivated the blacks who apparently actually carried out the work.

Well, no one has ever accused truthmatters of letting the facts get in the way...

[Immanuel]

No, there was no white group, only 399 black male sharecroppers. They weren't airmen; the black Tuskeegee Institute founded by Booker T. Washington cooperated and the study was named after it.



Thanks for that info. I had thought that I had read and even seen a movie that there was another group that had received treatment, but maybe not.

It still doesn't excuse the fact that these men were denied potentially life saving treatment.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for that info. I had thought that I had read and even seen a movie that there was another group that had received treatment, but maybe not.

It still doesn't excuse the fact that these men were denied potentially life saving treatment.

Immie

potentially life saving treatment?

they were denied life saving treatment...they were murdered....intentionally killed with the purpose of ...............nothing! yes nothing! with no purpose to heal....

i had never heard of this incident before....it really disgusts and sickens my human spirit.... :(

i had heard of the experimentation of sterilization of blacks during the early stages of family planning....planned parenthood, margaret sanger, of poor black women and men, not telling them what sterilization really meant....them NEVER being able to have a child.... :( eugenetics! till it came out in the open what they were doing....

not about this though........never heard about it....wish i never had either!

neither of these tragedies are anything to be proud of imo!

jd

[Trigg]

Thanks for that info. I had thought that I had read and even seen a movie that there was another group that had received treatment, but maybe not.

It still doesn't excuse the fact that these men were denied potentially life saving treatment.

Immie

From everything I've read there really was no treatment for syphillis at the time the experiment started. In fact, the cure was considered just as dangerous as the disease. The experiment started in 1932.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

[Immanuel]

potentially life saving treatment?

they were denied life saving treatment...they were murdered....intentionally killed with the purpose of ...............nothing! yes nothing! with no purpose to heal....

i had never heard of this incident before....it really disgusts and sickens my human spirit.... :(

i had heard of the experimentation of sterilization of blacks during the early stages of family planning....planned parenthood, margaret sanger, of poor black women and men, not telling them what sterilization really meant....them NEVER being able to have a child.... :( eugenetics! till it came out in the open what they were doing....

not about this though........never heard about it....wish i never had either!

neither of these tragedies are anything to be proud of imo!

jd

I would agree with everything you say here except for your emphasis on my statement about potentially life saving treatment. I don't beleive they were certain to be cured if they had gotten proper medical care, but I may be wrong.

Either way... the whole thing was just plain wrong!

Immie

[JohnDoe]

From everything I've read there really was no treatment for syphillis at the time the experiment started. In fact, the cure was considered just as dangerous as the disease. The experiment started in 1932.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

penicillin was created in 1928 and mass produced by 1943....

this study went on till 1975.....

there are no excuses for letting these men die, when the cure was cheaply available in 1943 and extremely cheap by 1948!!!!

[Trigg]

potentially life saving treatment?

they were denied life saving treatment...they were murdered....intentionally killed with the purpose of ...............nothing! yes nothing! with no purpose to heal....

i had never heard of this incident before....it really disgusts and sickens my human spirit.... :(

i had heard of the experimentation of sterilization of blacks during the early stages of family planning....planned parenthood, margaret sanger, of poor black women and men, not telling them what sterilization really meant....them NEVER being able to have a child.... :( eugenetics! till it came out in the open what they were doing....

not about this though........never heard about it....wish i never had either!

neither of these tragedies are anything to be proud of imo!

jd


Good Lord, if you've never heard about it read up. I provided a link.

There was no cure for syphillis when they started the experiment. The "cure" was toxic.

Part of the original goal of the study was to determine if patients were better off not being treated with these toxic remedies.

The tragedy was 15yrs later when penicillin was being used to treat syphillis and these men were denied treatment.

This wasn't strictly white Dr's either there was a black Dr. and nurse involved in the study.

[Trigg]

penicillin was created in 1928 and mass produced by 1943....

this study went on till 1975.....

there are no excuses for letting these men die, when the cure was cheaply available in 1943!!!!

Where did I say they had an excuse for what they did?????

I also didn't state when penicillin was created. I said it wasn't widely used for syphillis until 1947.

When the study was started there was no safe cure for syphillis.

[Immanuel]

Well, in doing some quick searching of this issue, I think I have gotten my histories mixed up a bit. I had thought that the Tuskegee Airmen had something to do with the Tuskegee Experiment (as in they were the victims), but then in searching the net quickly, it appears that what they had in common was the Tuskegee Institute and nothing more.


The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

by Borgna Brunner

For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness. Informed that they were being treated for “bad blood,” their doctors had no intention of curing them of syphilis at all.

The data for the experiment was to be collected from autopsies of the men, and they were thus deliberately left to degenerate under the ravages of tertiary syphilis—which can include tumors, heart disease, paralysis, blindness, insanity, and death. “As I see it,” one of the doctors involved explained, “we have no further interest in these patients until they

http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/Story.asp?s=1207586

Now, that is just plain sick!

I had thought that the Airmen were the men who had been experimented on:



Tuskegee Airmen Facts


NOTE: For historical photographs or information regarding the Tuskegee Airmen, contact: Maxwell Air Force Base by e-mail at afhranews@maxwell.af.mil or write the Air Force Historical Research Agency, 600 Chennault Circle, Maxwell AFB, Ala. 36112-6424.

The Tuskegee Airmen were dedicated, determined young men who volunteered to become America's first Black military airmen
Those who possessed the physical and mental qualifications and were accepted for aviation cadet training were trained initially to be pilots, and later to be either pilots, navigators, or bombardiers.
Tuskegee University was awarded the U.S. Army Air Corps contract to help train America’s first Black military aviators because it had already invested in the development of an airfield, had a proven civilian pilot training program and its graduates performed highest on flight aptitude exams.

http://www.tuskegee.edu/Global/story.asp?S=1127695

Immie

[Immanuel]

Where did I say they had an excuse for what they did?????

I also didn't state when penicillin was created. I said it wasn't widely used for syphillis until 1947.

When the study was started there was no safe cure for syphillis.

I didn't read that you had excused it, but neither did I read that jd was accusing you of doing so.

I think it is just the way she writes. It appears that she is accusing you, but it is not what she means. BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY IT CAN BE EXTREMELY IRRITATING! :laugh2: It has lead her and I to many a fight over nothing really.

I think she just thinks that her way of putting facts out there is better than our way. :)

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Where did I say they had an excuse for what they did?????

I also didn't state when penicillin was created. I said it wasn't widely used for syphillis until 1947.

When the study was started there was no safe cure for syphillis.as Immie said, I wasn't accusing you and sorry if that is how it came off....!!!!!!! yikes! :eek:

yes, to all that you said... however I believe we widely distributed it to world war 2 soldiers before the war was over in 1945....at least if memory serves me.

regardless, from at least 1947 until 1975 they let these men die, they let their wives die and they let their children be born with the terrible disease....they let them suffer and die from syphilis when penicillin was KNOWN to be the life saving cure....


They also did not treat these men with the known treatments to ease pain and other symptoms for syphilis at the time either....

I am not pointing out these things solely to address you or anyone really....

I am just surprised by what I am finding out on this and just compelled to repeat what I am finding out because....well...it is just so damn shocking to me!

:salute:

jd

[Trigg]

as Immie said, I wasn't accusing you and sorry if that is how it came off....!!!!!!! yikes! :eek:

yes, to all that you said... however I believe we widely distributed it to world war 2 soldiers before the war was over in 1945....at least if memory serves me.

regardless, from at least 1947 until 1975 they let these men die, they let their wives die and they let their children be born with the terrible disease....they let them suffer and die from syphilis when penicillin was KNOWN to be the life saving cure....


They also did not treat these men with the known treatments to ease pain and other symptoms for syphilis at the time either....


jd

Yes, it was awful that they let these men continue to suffer after a cure was found.

As far as your comment about the US distributing it to our WWll soldiers, I've never heard this. A link would be appreciated.

Everything I've ever read on Tuskegee states these men already had the disease and the "cure" was toxic when the experiment started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

[JohnDoe]

Yes, it was awful that they let these men continue to suffer after a cure was found.

As far as your comment about the US distributing it to our WWll soldiers, I've never heard this. A link would be appreciated.

Everything I've ever read on Tuskegee states these men already had the disease and the "cure" was toxic when the experiment started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experimenthttp://www.mcatmaster.com/medicine&war/penicillin.htm

this is what I have found so far....which doesn't really confirm what I had read previously ....that penicillin was critical to treating the soldiers of world war 2 for venereal diseases that they contracted while serving in europe in the war and for other staph infections caused by war wounds...also read somewhere that the creation of rubbers was critical to our military to prevent the spread of venerial diseases....and NOOOOOOOOO, hahahahaha, I do not have links YET....but I am working on it! :)


Bacterial diseases, like staphylococcal, hemolytic streptococcus, gonorrhea, syphilis, gangrene, and bacterial endocarditis, can have horrible horrible effects on the people they infect, from painful headache and fever, to paralysis and degeneration of internal organs, to agonizing death. Until the discovery and use of antibiotics, doctors had no decisive tool in the battle against these terribly devastating bacterial diseases. The most widely used antibiotic of all is penicillin, which has easily saved many lives since it entered wide use during World War II. Penicillin is derived from the fungus Penicillium and inhibits bacterial growth and kills bacteria. It is incredibly effective and can destroy a wide range of bacteria, including pneumococci, streptococci, gonococci, meningococci, the clostridium that causes tetanus, and the syphilis spirochete.



...For twelve years after its discovery (in 1928), not enough penicillin existed to save even one person, yet over twelve billion units of penicillin can be made each year now, and at a cost of only 3% of what it had cost during the war. Penicillin does so much for the world. It has lowered the death rate of staphylococcal infections by 86%, is the most effective drug for the treatment of hemolytic streptococcus, is the most powerful therapeutic agent against gonorrhea and syphilis, is a very affective antibiotic for wounds and burns, is helpful in the treatment of gangrene, and is the best treatment existing for bacterial endocarditis, empyema, lung abscess, brochietasis, acute osteomyelitis, chronic osteomyelitis, and anthrax; and yet, penicillin is nontoxic. One wonders if it might still be sitting in a laboratory somewhere if not for the extreme pressure brought to bear by World War II to make it useful and widely available.

[Immanuel]

this is what I have found so far....which doesn't really confirm what I had read previously ....that penicillin was critical to treating the soldiers of world war 2 for venerial diseases that they contracted while serving in europe in the war and for other staph infections caused by war wounds...also read somewhere that the creation of rubbers was critical to our military to prevent the spread of venerial diseases....and NOOOOOOOOO, hahahahaha, I do not have links YET....but I am working on it! :)

I guess the government didn't believe in abstinence back then either. :(

Immie

[Kathianne]

as Immie said, I wasn't accusing you and sorry if that is how it came off....!!!!!!! yikes! :eek:

yes, to all that you said... however I believe we widely distributed it to world war 2 soldiers before the war was over in 1945....at least if memory serves me.

regardless, from at least 1947 until 1975 they let these men die, they let their wives die and they let their children be born with the terrible disease....they let them suffer and die from syphilis when penicillin was KNOWN to be the life saving cure....


They also did not treat these men with the known treatments to ease pain and other symptoms for syphilis at the time either....

I am not pointing out these things solely to address you or anyone really....

I am just surprised by what I am finding out on this and just compelled to repeat what I am finding out because....well...it is just so damn shocking to me!

:salute:

jd

JD, I really don't know if penicillin was distributed in WWII, I know sulfa drugs were used, literally by the bucket, as my father's hand was severely wrecked on Omaha, along with back, butt, and legs, they stuck his hand in a bucket of sulfa drugs, poured a bunch on the other wounds and sent him back to England. I think if they'd had penicillin, he would have gotten it.

[JohnDoe]

JD, I really don't know if penicillin was distributed in WWII, I know sulfa drugs were used, literally by the bucket, as my father's hand was severely wrecked on Omaha, along with back, butt, and legs, they stuck his hand in a bucket of sulfa drugs, poured a bunch on the other wounds and sent him back to England. I think if they'd had penicillin, he would have gotten it.

Bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....sniffle sniffle

It's not my fault Kathianne! There is all kinds of contradicting information as to when it was widely spread out there.... :(

Like the article I just posted to trigg says that it was WIDELY DISTRIBUTED during world war II?????

But other articles state that it was super mass produced in 1947 so that could not have been during the war?

:dunno:

jd

[JohnDoe]

immie, of course they did not promote abstinence....people today think that we are worse or different today than yesteryear and the truth is, we are the same...


Condoms were not made available to U.S. soldiers in World War I, and a significant number of returning soldiers carried sexually transmitted infections. During World War II, however, condoms were heavily promoted to soldiers,

with one film exhorting

"Don't forget — put it on before you put it in."[4]

[Immanuel]

immie, of course they did not promote abstinence....people today think that we are worse or different today than yesteryear and the truth is, we are the same...

Earth to jd... Earth to jd...

I was kidding. It was a joke or at least an attempted joke. ;)

Immie

[CockySOB]

Bwhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....sniffle sniffle

It's not my fault Kathianne! There is all kinds of contradicting information as to when it was widely spread out there.... :(

Like the article I just posted to trigg says that it was WIDELY DISTRIBUTED during world war II?????

But other articles state that it was super mass produced in 1947 so that could not have been during the war?

:dunno:

jd

Sigh. Another librull dumbass pokes her head out.

Penicillin was NOT widely available during WWII. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin)...


During World War II, penicillin made a major difference in the number of deaths and amputations caused by infected wounds among Allied forces, saving an estimated 12%-15% of lives.[citation needed] Availability was severely limited, however, by the difficulty of manufacturing large quantities of penicillin and by the rapid renal clearance of the drug, necessitating frequent dosing. Penicillins are actively secreted, and about 80% of a penicillin dose is cleared within three to four hours of administration. During those times, it became common procedure to collect the urine from patients being treated so that the penicillin could be isolated and reused[11].

And before you get your panties in a bunch, I agree that continuing the experiment as long as it was continued is at best highly questionable and at worst criminal. But I don't know enough about it to form an opinion beyond that.

[JohnDoe]

Sigh. Another librull dumbass pokes her head out.

Penicillin was NOT widely available during WWII. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin)...



And before you get your panties in a bunch, I agree that continuing the experiment as long as it was continued is at best highly questionable and at worst criminal. But I don't know enough about it to form an opinion beyond that.

i don't think any cocky sob could ever get MY panties in a bunch, so no worries there!:slap:

ok....maybe not widely during the whole war, and i NEVER said such, did i?

it WAS USED widely on d-day soldiers...


Andrew J. Moyer
By November 26, 1941, Andrew J. Moyer, the lab's expert on the nutrition of molds, had succeeded, with the assistance of Dr. Heatley, in increasing the yields of penicillin 10 times. In 1943, the required clinical trials were performed and penicillin was shown to be the most effective antibacterial agent to date. Penicillin production was quickly scaled up and available in quantity to treat Allied soldiers wounded on D-Day. As production was increased, the price dropped from nearly priceless in 1940, to $20 per dose in July 1943, to $0.55 per dose by 1946.

As a result of their work, two members of the British group were awarded the Nobel Prize. Dr. Andrew J. Moyer from the Peoria Lab was inducted into the Inventors Hall of Fame and both the British and Peoria Laboratories were designated as International Historic Chemical Landmarks.


Andrew J Moyer Patent
On May 25, 1948, Andrew J Moyer was granted a patent for a method of the mass production of penicillin.

http://inventors.about.com/od/pstartinventions/a/Penicillin.htm

[Kathianne]

i don't think any cocky sob could ever get MY panties in a bunch, so no worries there!:slap:

ok....maybe not widely during the whole war, and i NEVER said such, did i?

it WAS USED widely on d-day soldiers...



http://inventors.about.com/od/pstartinventions/a/Penicillin.htm

Really? So why didn't my dad get some? He was there at 7am as scheduled.

[JohnDoe]

Really? So why didn't my dad get some? He was there at 7am as scheduled.

i have no idea kathianne? maybe it was the british soldiers that got it? maybe he was't part of the widely?

i am not the one ''making this up'' ya know? i am only the messenger of the news!!!!!!!!! lol



In May, 1940 they performed one of the most important medical experiments in history. The work was so urgent that they came in to begin the experiment on the weekend, and on Saturday 25 May, Florey's team tested penicillin on eight mice injected with a lethal dose of streptococci bacteria. Four of the mice were treated with penicillin, while four were used as controls. By the next day, the treated mice had recovered and the untreated mice were dead. In the early days of World War II, the lives of eight mice may seem insignificant. But their rescue by penicillin led to the treatment of Allied soldiers as early as D-Day, in June 1944, and probably influenced the outcome of the war.

The First Patient

The results were so exciting Florey knew that it was time to test the drug on humans. The first patient in 1941 had been scratched by a rose thorn. Albert Alexander's whole face, eyes and scalp had swollen. He had already had an eye removed and abscesses drained; even his remaining eye had to be lanced to relieve the pain of the swelling. He was given penicillin, and within a day he began to recover. But Florey's team didn't have enough of the drug to see the patient through to a full recovery. Their efforts to recycle the penicillin by extracting it from his urine failed, and he unfortunately had a re-lapse and died. Because of the awful experience, the team then concentrated their efforts on sick children, who did not require such large quantities.

In 1943 Florey travelled to North Africa to test the effects of penicillin on wounded soldiers. His trials were seen as a miracle. Instead of amputating wounded limbs or simply leave them to heal, he suggested soldiers' wounds be cleaned and sewn up, and that the patients then be given penicillin. Thanks to Florey and his team, the drug was available to treat Allied troops by the end of World War II. It has since revolutionised medical science, saving millions of lives.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/florey/story.htm



and there's this:


http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=inventors&cdn=money&tm=30&gps=103_43_1083_603&f=11&su=p554.2.150.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.invent.org/hall_of_fame/107.html

The potential of using penicillin to treat wounded soldiers was immediately recognized in World War II. However the concept of antibiotics was new, and a practical method for large-scale production was not available. Treatments required from 1-2 million Oxford units of the substance. The urgency of finding a method for mass-producing penicillin led to international cooperation.

In the United States, the task was assigned to Moyer, who found that by culturing the Penicillium mold in a culture broth comprising corn steep liquor and lactose, penicillin yields could be increased many fold. This was the first known use of corn steep liquor for growing microorganisms.

Moyer also discovered that with this improved medium, the fermentation could be conducted with continuous shaking, thereby further enhancing the yields and production rate.

Invention Impact

These discoveries led to industrial penicillin production, which saved thousands of lives during the war.

Moyer's work also provided a model for the development of all other antibiotic fermentations. Corn steep liquor is still used in the commercial fermentation processes for making penicillin and many other antibiotics. Moyer contributed to 10 U.S. patents.

i don't know what to say about your dad kathianne, but it was widely used in the later years of ww2....so the links have said?

jd

[Kathianne]

i have no idea kathianne? maybe it was the british soldiers that got it? maybe he was't part of the widely?

i am not the one ''making this up'' ya know? i am only the messenger of the news!!!!!!!!! lol





and there's this:



i don't know what to say about your dad kathianne, but it was widely used in the later years of ww2....so the links have said?

jd
That's not what I got from what you posted. D-day was June, 1944.

[Dilloduck]

Really? So why didn't my dad get some? He was there at 7am as scheduled.

Isn't that a pretty lame conclusion to come to? One guy doesn't get it on D-Day (June 6, 1944) and that means it wasn't used ?

[JohnDoe]

That's not what I got from what you posted. D-day was June, 1944.

i posted this before kathianne....?


Andrew J. Moyer
By November 26, 1941, Andrew J. Moyer, the lab's expert on the nutrition of molds, had succeeded, with the assistance of Dr. Heatley, in increasing the yields of penicillin 10 times. In 1943, the required clinical trials were performed and penicillin was shown to be the most effective antibacterial agent to date. Penicillin production was quickly scaled up and available in quantity to treat Allied soldiers wounded on D-Day. As production was increased, the price dropped from nearly priceless in 1940, to $20 per dose in July 1943, to $0.55 per dose by 1946.


oh, here's another link that speaks about it, but a pdf file, can't copy

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=2053738&pageindex=1

[Said1]

Isn't that a pretty lame conclusion to come to? One guy doesn't get it on D-Day (June 6, 1944) and that means it wasn't used ?

Look at the prices JD posted. Shortages could explain that.

[JohnDoe]

Look at the prices JD posted. Shortages could explain that.
yes, i think i mentioned that as a possibility earlier....the article did say that they had it in quantity, it did not say that they had enough for EVERYONE!

jd

[Kathianne]

Isn't that a pretty lame conclusion to come to? One guy doesn't get it on D-Day (June 6, 1944) and that means it wasn't used ?

Ah my point was if 'widespread' use by end, wasn't '44 late? I'm sure if it had been widely available he would have gotten it, for he was one of few to be triaged to survive in the wave he was in.

[Dilloduck]

Ah my point was if 'widespread' use by end, wasn't '44 late? I'm sure if it had been widely available he would have gotten it, for he was one of few to be triaged to survive in the wave he was in.

I gotta feeling that there were a lot of things that weren't available to our individual troops on D-Day. Doesn't mean it didn't exist in mass quantities elsewhere.

[Kathianne]

I gotta feeling that there were a lot of things that weren't available to our individual troops on D-Day. Doesn't mean it didn't exist in mass quantities elsewhere.

Whatever.

[truthmatters]

wow a great thread

[jimnyc]

Necroposting from 2008? Lol I see the melting brain hasn'thealed yet!

[gabosaurus]

Lol I see the melting brain hasn'thealed yet!

Melting brains is a common problem on DP. It appears to get worse with age. :cool:

[aboutime]

Melting brains is a common problem on DP. It appears to get worse with age. :cool:


Only one way for you to stop your OWN brain melt gabby. But then. Nobody is willing to sweep you up, and throw you away.

[jimnyc]

Melting brains is a common problem on DP. It appears to get worse with age. :cool:

Perhaps you are correct, and if so, then TM must be about 450 years old.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

wow a great thread Wow, what a great day for the race, huh?--Tyr

[Larrymc]

Who's afraid? Just because someone doesn't support Obama's candidacy doesn't mean they're afraid. For you to jump to the conclusion that because someone does not want to see Obama in the Oval Office because they are afraid of someone "understands the Black anger" is to reduce the debate to a matter of race and nothing else. I don't know anyone who favors another candidate because of the color of Barack's skin or his grasp of Black anger. The people I know don't care about those things, it's his positions on issues that deter their support.

You, on the other hand, seem to want it to be, based on your post, all about race. Well, if you choose to support Obama because of some misplaced sense of White guilt, that is your choice. I choose to make my choice based on the issues and the content of the candidates character. I have no guilt, and why should I? Since when do we visit the sins of the Fathers on the children? No one in my family ever owned slaves, in fact they fought to free them. Did they get a raw deal? Hell yes, there is no denying that. Do they have a right to be angry about it? Sure, a person has the right to be angry about anything they choose. How long are you and others going to excuse the plight and frustrations of many Blacks by blaming them on the spectre of slavery? For decades we as a nation have been working tirelessly to correct the wrongs of the past, and that is good. But I ask you, when will personal responsibility and initiative be the rule rather than the exception? When will you and those like you be satisfied with the laws and efforts made to level the playing field and say, "Hey, we've done what we can, now it's up to you. Get an education, get a job, stop having children out of wedlock, step up and be a father so the next generation will have it a little better and a little easier than the last?" When will you stop treating Blacks like they are victims?

In this day and age, is it not true that every American shares the same basic rights as the next? (Kindly save the issue of Gay marriage for another thread as it is not the topic here.) If it is true, how much more can be done? What do you suggest? There are already racial quotas in some hiring practices and college admissions. I know first hand that minorities get a break on many civil service opportunities. What more can we as a country do to say "We're sorry?"Thank you HJMICK, i was looking for a place to comment on this post, but it wasn't making any sense, you brought it back and covered pretty much anything i could have offered.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Thank you HJMICK, i was looking for a place to comment on this post, but it wasn't making any sense, you brought it back and covered pretty much anything i could have offered.

Yes, his post was spot on regardless of when he first made it! -Tyr

[hjmick]

Damn. Five years ago. I read that and it seems like a different person. It really was a very good post. I don't say that out of conceit, but out of surprise. I cared back then, I gave a shit. Five years later, I feel jaded and cynical. Tired and frustrated. Disappointed in the discourse and polarization. Back then it seems as if I thought people were interested in listening to a well thought out and reasoned argument to their points rather than simply looking for like minds and pats on the back.

Thank you Larry and Tyr for the kind words and the walk down Memory Lane.

It's made me sad but at the same time it has given me something to think about

[fj1200]

wow a great thread

Because this...


http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Resource-Budget/Federal-Deficit-Surplus-and-National-Debt.html

History of the facts shows us what you get when you give the gov to Rs.

... was a spot on reason to vote Dem? :rolleyes:

[truthmatters]

Wow, if this isn't a shining example of white guilt I don't know what is.

TM ,

Your somewhat right on a few points. America is not perfect, never was and never will be. Our leaders of both parties have made monumental mistakes in our history.

However the thing you just don't have a handle on is "Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country". NOTHING that happened in the past before I got here is MY failing.

Blacks are correct that America wasn't fair to their ancesters, but they can't blaim current white America for the sins of the past. I also don't think Holocost survivors should hate current Germans, and I don't think most do. This preacher was preaching hatred for white America by the statement "with black on black violence we arn't fighting the REAL ENEMY."

People here who have decided not to vote Obama are making their decision based on political views, not race, which you seem to be doing out of a misguided attempt to right the wrongs of America.

I would have gladly voted Colin Powell if he had run. I think he would have done an amazing job.

This isn't about fearing blacks. It's about ISSUES

pretending the right in this country is not racist is silly

[fj1200]

pretending the right in this country is not racist is silly

Link?

[aboutime]

pretending the right in this country is not racist is silly



DAMN! I didn't know Barack Obama was a contributing member here at DP.

Your name "truthmatters" is just another of Obama's lies you represent so well.

[Trigg]

pretending the right in this country is not racist is silly


not any sillier than resurrecting a 5yr old argument. :lame2:

[jimnyc]

pretending the right in this country is not racist is silly

You are the worst hack of a poster I have ever come across. For YEARS now all you have done is post silly little one liners and for YEARS now you have done so and refused to debate like an adult and offer more, and offer facts and links to backup your posts.

And posting with other names like desh and evince and such don't hide your stupidity. I saw some of the posts and immediately thought "that sounds like that dingbat TM", only to get a few posts down the page and see someone verify that thought.

There are at LEAST 3 "debates" we have had over the years, if you want to call them that, where I literally asked you like 500x for facts and all you ever said was "go find it yourself". That's the sign of someone espousing absolute garbage and even knowing so. Making shit up to put party over country makes you one of the worst hacks I've ever come across.

Oh, and you're just downright dumb to boot, which could explain away some of it.

[jimnyc]

not any sillier than resurrecting a 5yr old argument. :lame2:

She thinks her stupidity is smart. All she did was resurrect more brainless posts to show those who don't know of her.

[glockmail]

You are the worst hack of a poster I have ever come across. For YEARS now all you have done is post silly little one liners and for YEARS now you have done so and refused to debate like an adult and offer more, and offer facts and links to backup your posts.

And posting with other names like desh and evince and such don't hide your stupidity. I saw some of the posts and immediately thought "that sounds like that dingbat TM", only to get a few posts down the page and see someone verify that thought.

There are at LEAST 3 "debates" we have had over the years, if you want to call them that, where I literally asked you like 500x for facts and all you ever said was "go find it yourself". That's the sign of someone espousing absolute garbage and even knowing so. Making shit up to put party over country makes you one of the worst hacks I've ever come across.

Oh, and you're just downright dumb to boot, which could explain away some of it.

You said what I have thought many times. Desh is nothing more than a brain-dead liberal democrat. :laugh:

[jimnyc]

You said what I have thought many times. Desh is nothing more than a brain-dead liberal democrat. :laugh:

The best part is that she revives a 5 year old thread which only serves to highlight her stupidity. She is such a hack and thinks anyone with a (D) next to their name has never been a racist or done anything racist. She wants to point out history from long ago as a talking point, but will ignore more recent history when it comes to the retarded party she supports.

[glockmail]

The best part is that she revives a 5 year old thread which only serves to highlight her stupidity. She is such a hack and thinks anyone with a (D) next to their name has never been a racist or done anything racist. She wants to point out history from long ago as a talking point, but will ignore more recent history when it comes to the retarded party she supports.

Racism is the heart and soul of the D Party, from the beginning of them to the present. The Obama is the most blatant racist we've ever had in office.

[jimnyc]

Racism is the heart and soul of the D Party, from the beginning of them to the present. The Obama is the most blatant racist we've ever had in office.

When people hear racism they automatically think of black people being treated badly. What so many won't admit, is that the Dem party has used this as a tool from day one in supporting Obama's horrible presidency. Anything at all that is criticized about his endless mistakes are blamed on racism. You don't support his initiatives and you are called a racist. Point out the stupid shit that Michelle blurts out, or her inability to properly address the flag during the pledge of allegiance, you're also a racist. NOTHING is wrong about the democrats, it's just that we're all racists. :rolleyes:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

Will the time and space collapse?

Will he give give all the cabinet seats to the bloods and the crips?

Will he call for reparations to begin and give a trillion dollars of our tax money to the blacks in this country. (this would actually be better for the country than to give Iraq a trillion dollars of our money and leave tens of thousands of Iraqi dead and millions hating us for destroying their country, at least the money would be a stimulus to OUR country).


Black people are just too scary.

When they get angry and dont sing and dance a constant stream of praise for this coutnry do people get scared?

When you have a father which treated you like shit yet did feed you and give you a bed you Love them but you can not pretend he was the best thing to ever exsist.

Wake up people they have a completely reasonable set of historical reasons to question Americas shiny shiny image in the mind of many who claim this country is infalable.

America has NEVER been perfect and its the ones who remind us of our flaws who are truely trying to make this country live up to its full potential.

Its time to face the facts and say Yes my dad did feed and clothe me but he never lived up to his potential as a human being because he lowered himself by striking out at me to make himself feel taller.

They are America, they are as American as appple pie. They were just the red headed step child which reminded us that they were not here by choice but are here because We stole his Mom from her first husband. They have been treated pretty shitty by America for generations. 40 acres and a mule never really panned out. I wonder what the black community in this country would look like today if that had actually happened?

hen there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.

Grab a clue! They have good logical reasons not to fully trust every Aim of their shared America.

Think of how we revere the holocaust survivors. Why do we not revere the survivors of the slavery, Tuskegee or any of the completetly blameless people who were treated in such a completetly evil manner????

Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country. Not us No we would have scream out and said "dont do that shit in my name". Does it mean that because it was not me that did this to them that their realitives and surviving family members need to forget it and pretend it is NOT part of their family heritage? Do they need to scrub their minds of their family history and replace it with a shiney pretty image which is a lie? How many of you are proud that your great grandfather came here with nothing in his pocket and within one generation he built with his own sweat and hard work a grocery store which feed three generations of his family? Hell yeah you will NEVER forget his story and will tell it to your childern so they have a sense of scarafice and pride in the stock of hard scrable people they are from.

Now realize that many families have a different history. One day my great great grandfather was 15 and tending the crops for his father when some Men he had never seen before took him and forced him to walk for five days. He was then placed in the hold of a ship and never saw even one of his family ever again. He nearly died of the sickness on the way accrossed the big ocean. When the ship found land he walked off it in chains and from that day on He was never allowed to own anything. He worked and worked and worked. He worked till he would fall asleep within mintues of laying in the hay next to the cow in the barn. He looked forward to the food he was given as the only small pleasure in his day. He did this for 45 years until he died of an poorly attended injury which lead to an infection.

Yes a made up story but there are many like it which are true. While your great grandfather Earned everything he worked for My grandfather worked just as hard and every momment knowing he would NEVER see any improvement in his life or his childrens life yet it did seem to make the man who owned him very wealthy.

Why do black people not have the right to be angry for their great great grandfathers injustices.

I am Proud of my dirt poor Irish heritage. They had nothing and were starving so they came here. They worked hard and made their way accrossed the country until they found a little piece of heaven in Kansas and proceeded to settle in and farm and drink , then drink some more , forget to farm and drink some more. This kinda went on until when my grandma and grandpa were in there mid teens in the same town looked arround and both their families were non exsistant. There they were two teenagers who said to each other What the hell lets get married and be each others family. They hated drink so much they never did drink. They had my dad and a couple of daughters and My Dad proceeded to drink.

I can make up a much prettier story to tell people but why?

This is the truth. This is real life.

If I just tried to forget it all I would never retain the messages of this real life story. I would cheat the bravery of the two teenagers who looked arround themselves and said "WTF you want to get married?". They made the best of it. The only problem was that alcoholism is more than just the damage of the actual drug. Its coldness that growing up in a house were people dont function in an emotionally healthy way.

Slavery did the same thing to families. They were growing up since children in a family were there was a master and a bunch of slaves. The societal problems you see in the black communtity are part and parcel of this generational specture.

Many black families have surpassed this ghost. Just like my ancestors were slaves of alcohol and could not let that bottle go until my brave teenage grandparents made the connection for themselves some families have people who still slip back just like my Dad did.

I loved my Dad. Hes gone now but he sure was a dick to me. I have worked hard in my life not to let him pass his ghost onto me. I also remind my Son that this ghost will try to haunt him too and to be very careful.

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family? Ok, finally forced myself to read this long , drawn out crybaby type of post. BO HOO, CAME FROM A TOTALLY FFED UP FAMILY AND NOW YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME IS NO WAY TO INSPIRE CONFIDENCE IN YOUR READERS TM. This type of wishful thinking junk is shat,


The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential. Too bad you can not grow up to admit reality and stop feeding the fantasy ego of that liberal mind. --Tyr

[aboutime]

Ok, finally forced myself to read this long , drawn out crybaby type of post. BO HOO, CAME FROM A TOTALLY FFED UP FAMILY AND NOW YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME IS NO WAY TO INSPIRE CONFIDENCE IN YOUR READERS TM. This type of wishful thinking junk is shat,

Too bad you can not grow up to admit reality and stop feeding the fantasy ego of that liberal mind. --Tyr



Tyr. Did all of that long, miserable, whiny tirade sound like a Jesse Jackson Wannabe member was talking here on DP?

How disgusting can someone feel?
Like ONE MEMBER feels he is the sole, lone, human being on Earth who had any kind of past, and everyone else was responsible for his terrible, misery in life...so...we are now...all to blame???

[DragonStryk72]

I just dont understand what people are affraid of. What is it they think is going to happen if they elect someone who understands the black anger that does exsist in this country?

Um, well that wasn't our problem with him, so I don't see how that applies. Herman Cain was awesome, his own man, and a black Republican.

Will the time and space collapse?

No, and none of us believed it would.

Will he give give all the cabinet seats to the bloods and the crips?

No, and none of believed he would.

Will he call for reparations to begin and give a trillion dollars of our tax money to the blacks in this country. (this would actually be better for the country than to give Iraq a trillion dollars of our money and leave tens of thousands of Iraqi dead and millions hating us for destroying their country, at least the money would be a stimulus to OUR country).

No, none of us believed he would.

Black people are just too scary.

No they're not. Why do you believe they are?

When they get angry and dont sing and dance a constant stream of praise for this coutnry do people get scared?

No, why would we? And what decade do you live in? We made it through the 60s and 70s.

When you have a father which treated you like shit yet did feed you and give you a bed you Love them but you can not pretend he was the best thing to ever existed.

Um, not sure where this incomplete sentence is going. Yeah, some dad's aren't good at the emotional end, but come through on the basics.



Wake up people they have a completely reasonable set of historical reasons to question Americas shiny shiny image in the mind of many who claim this country is infalable.

No one claims this country is infallible, least of all anyone on these boards.

America has NEVER been perfect and its the ones who remind us of our flaws who are truely trying to make this country live up to its full potential.

Yes, I'm not arguing, but what if everyone involved is saying the country is imperfect, and that corrections to be made, and we just disagree on the cause/cure?

Its time to face the facts and say Yes my dad did feed and clothe me but he never lived up to his potential as a human being because he lowered himself by striking out at me to make himself feel taller.

Um, Okay? But my dad didn't do that, so I don't see the reason to say it.

They are America, they are as American as appple pie. They were just the red headed step child which reminded us that they were not here by choice but are here because We stole his Mom from her first husband. They have been treated pretty shitty by America for generations. 40 acres and a mule never really panned out. I wonder what the black community in this country would look like today if that had actually happened?

You realize redheaded step child could be offense to the redheads on the board, right? And that you're using while ranting about being sensitive to different cultures? And we didn't "steal" the black folks. Attend a black history course, the vast majority of slaves were either raised in slavery or sold to us, many times by black tribal leaders in africa.

hen there was things like the Tuskegee airmen. Bright young men willing to fight and die for their country. American as apple pie....Used like lab animals and set up to go home and infect their families with disease. How many babies were infected at birth due to this shit? Babies of American men willing to fight and die for their country.

God man, your grammar. Anyway, the Tuskegee airmen have no history at all of being used for medical experimentation, though they were tested psychologically to make certain they qualified as proper Army pilots. Also, you seem to downplay all the white people involved who supported them, such as in "Operation Checkerboard."

Grab a clue! They have good logical reasons not to fully trust every Aim of their shared America.

Think of how we revere the holocaust survivors. Why do we not revere the survivors of the slavery, Tuskegee or any of the completetly blameless people who were treated in such a completetly evil manner????

Um, we glorified the Tuskegee Air Men, and many others who exemplified being great black Americans.

Because it was OUR failing. It was OUR country. Not us No we would have scream out and said "dont do that shit in my name". Does it mean that because it was not me that did this to them that their realitives and surviving family members need to forget it and pretend it is NOT part of their family heritage? Do they need to scrub their minds of their family history and replace it with a shiney pretty image which is a lie? How many of you are proud that your great grandfather came here with nothing in his pocket and within one generation he built with his own sweat and hard work a grocery store which feed three generations of his family? Hell yeah you will NEVER forget his story and will tell it to your childern so they have a sense of scarafice and pride in the stock of hard scrable people they are from.

Actually, plenty of white folks DID, unless you're stating there was some sort of coup in the mid-60s where black folks completely replaced our government, and enacted desegregation. The thing is, what you described is the American Dream, to come from nothing, and build yourself into something, and plenty have gone through that, of all races and creeds, so I again have to ask "What decade are you living in?"

Now realize that many families have a different history. One day my great great grandfather was 15 and tending the crops for his father when some Men he had never seen before took him and forced him to walk for five days. He was then placed in the hold of a ship and never saw even one of his family ever again. He nearly died of the sickness on the way accrossed the big ocean. When the ship found land he walked off it in chains and from that day on He was never allowed to own anything. He worked and worked and worked. He worked till he would fall asleep within mintues of laying in the hay next to the cow in the barn. He looked forward to the food he was given as the only small pleasure in his day. He did this for 45 years until he died of an poorly attended injury which lead to an infection.

Okay, and? Slavery sucked, that's why we ended it, and again, many people were involved in that fight that were not black.

Yes a made up story but there are many like it which are true. While your great grandfather Earned everything he worked for My grandfather worked just as hard and every momment knowing he would NEVER see any improvement in his life or his childrens life yet it did seem to make the man who owned him very wealthy.

Wait, you made up the story? And again, that's why we ended slavery.

Why do black people not have the right to be angry for their great great grandfathers injustices.

You can be angry about whatever you want. You do not, however, have right to make us be silent about our tiring of you being angry for it. Also, generational blood feuds are horrible, regardless of race or creed. That's pretty much why the Middle East is like it is today, and it's no better holding on to that kind of anger. Also, on a side note, continuing to hold anger for that shows a rampant disregard for those like Martin Luther King Jr., who preached a message of peace and forgivenness, as well as every othe black leader who wanted to find the way forward.

I am Proud of my dirt poor Irish heritage. They had nothing and were starving so they came here. They worked hard and made their way accrossed the country until they found a little piece of heaven in Kansas and proceeded to settle in and farm and drink , then drink some more , forget to farm and drink some more. This kinda went on until when my grandma and grandpa were in there mid teens in the same town looked arround and both their families were non exsistant. There they were two teenagers who said to each other What the hell lets get married and be each others family. They hated drink so much they never did drink. They had my dad and a couple of daughters and My Dad proceeded to drink.

I'm proud of my Irish heritage too, but I'm not a dick about it.

I can make up a much prettier story to tell people but why?

Um, huh?

This is the truth. This is real life.

Well, it may be what you see as the truth, but it so far does not meet with objective truth.

If I just tried to forget it all I would never retain the messages of this real life story. I would cheat the bravery of the two teenagers who looked arround themselves and said "WTF you want to get married?". They made the best of it. The only problem was that alcoholism is more than just the damage of the actual drug. Its coldness that growing up in a house were people dont function in an emotionally healthy way.

It's nice your parents got together when they were teens and stuck with it, but that isn't any more brave than anyone else getting married these days. If the family was mixed race back in the 60s and 70s, then yes, that was brave, especially since it wasn't legal in many states.

Slavery did the same thing to families. They were growing up since children in a family were there was a master and a bunch of slaves. The societal problems you see in the black communtity are part and parcel of this generational specture.

Slavery's been dead for over 130 years now, man. Sorry, but no, that crutch has been overcome, though obviously not by you. Yes, in the inner cities, man have grown up in poverty, amongst crime and had that feed into defining their lives, but it's not about slavery, unless every single black leader between then and now FAILED.

Many black families have surpassed this ghost. Just like my ancestors were slaves of alcohol and could not let that bottle go until my brave teenage grandparents made the connection for themselves some families have people who still slip back just like my Dad did.

Clearly, you have not. And wait, are you equating drinking with slavery? My dad's got 30 years sober, and they're nothing alike.

I loved my Dad. Hes gone now but he sure was a dick to me. I have worked hard in my life not to let him pass his ghost onto me. I also remind my Son that this ghost will try to haunt him too and to be very careful.

So far, you're being a massive dick to the entire board here, ranting at us with unfocused prejudice.

Please people understand what you see when you see the reverand saying the things you think are crazy ass Hate America shit that it is therapy to remember the ghosts and to keep them in there place IN HISTORY and to make people strong to the idea those ghosts will not be allowed back into our family.

The thing is that ghost no longer exist when they are finished. I'm sorry that you see so many, but most of us have moved forward.

The reverand does not hate America just like I dont hate my Dad. He just cant lie and pretend America was this shiny perfect ideal place. No more than I can pretend my dad hugged me and told me I was the joy of his life. I wish it were true and the Rev also wishes America was shiny perfect and Ideal but only remembering how it ruins things when it fails to live to its potential is what will move it to its potential.

A reverend that has hate in his heart in not a true preacher. No one believes that America is a shiny perfect place, so I still don't get those remarks.

I cant change my Dad , hes dead now.

I'm sorry for your loss, but it doesn't excuse being a rabid dick to everyone.

We can change America in fact we will have to change America or it will die.

We already did. Barack Obama, Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, black scientists, lawyers, judges, police comissioners, politicians, musicians, political activists, etc. There are now many wealthy black folks in America, and have been for some time.

So if you insist Pile the hate on and pretend there is only one way to see this.

What I feel is a deep sadness for your position.

Or maybe you can be like my teenaged grandparents who said Hey you want to be each others family?

Not from the way you've approached this, we can't. You jumped on here, insulted and pre-judged everyone hear, and then accused us of hate before mentioning understanding. Yeah, sorry, but you placed yourself further from your goal with every sentence.

[DragonStryk72]

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Resource-Budget/Federal-Deficit-Surplus-and-National-Debt.html

History of the facts shows us what you get when you give the gov to Rs.

Except when the Rs desegregated schools, and led the fight for equal rights for blacks?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. Did all of that long, miserable, whiny tirade sound like a Jesse Jackson Wannabe member was talking here on DP?

How disgusting can someone feel?
Like ONE MEMBER feels he is the sole, lone, human being on Earth who had any kind of past, and everyone else was responsible for his terrible, misery in life...so...we are now...all to blame??? My grandfather was full blood Indian and was treated worse than blacks were here in the South from the time of his birth until his death. I've never made a single excuse for not working hard and advancing myself because of that. He made no excuses either! So one must excuse me if I have no sympathy for somebody pulling a pity train and then trying to accuse the Republican party for the evils of the world. TM should have grown up and became his/her own man/woman.. I've known many people with worse life stories than that which TM presented and they all advanced themselves in life and never played on or relied on such mistaken excuses. Hundreds of millions around the world have endured far, far worse and not went into "woe is me" pity mode. Hell, a billion Chinese live in worse now and have for all their lives. -Tyr

[aboutime]

My grandfather was full blood Indian and was treated worse than blacks were here in the South from the time of his birth until his death. I've never made a single excuse for not working hard and advancing myself because of that. He made no excuses either! So one must excuse me if I have no sympathy for somebody pulling a pity train and then trying to accuse the Republican party for the evils of the world. TM should have grown up and became his/her own man/woman.. I've known many people with worse life stories than that which TM presented and they all advanced themselves in life and never played on or relied on such mistaken excuses. Hundreds of millions around the world have endured far, far worse and not went into "woe is me" pity mode. Hell, a billion Chinese live in worse now and have for all their lives. -Tyr



Tyr. Agree totally. TM reminded me of how it appears our younger generation members (not all of them) are now convinced WE OWE THEM EVERYTHING, and they shouldn't be expected to work for it. That's the "ME" and "I" generation's attitude, combined with a never ending need for INSTANT GRATIFICATION, separate from all Reality.
TV programs tend to prove the point even more than I could.
And they wonder why WE OLDER people are unable to communicate with them...using our ability to speak, reason, and demonstrate something they are not being taught...like, Common sense.
Too bad they are destined to LOSE as long as they follow other losers like Obama.

[truthmatters]

Except when the Rs desegregated schools, and led the fight for equal rights for blacks?
then they came up with the southern strategy which made them the racist party.Dont you know history?

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy when you know history you don't have to lie about what reality is

[glockmail]

There you go, Wikipedia, the final source. :laugh:

[aboutime]

There you go, Wikipedia, the final source. :laugh:


glock. Exactly. Who needs to read from History books when it's easier to always use a place that has been known, and become famous for making up their OWN versions of Truth...usually called fabrication, or lies?

The "Final Source" is actually more like a silent Death Knell for LAZY people who depend on others to do their thinking, and living for them.

[glockmail]

glock. Exactly. Who needs to read from History books when it's easier to always use a place that has been known, and become famous for making up their OWN versions of Truth...usually called fabrication, or lies?

The "Final Source" is actually more like a silent Death Knell for LAZY people who depend on others to do their thinking, and living for them.Libtards like to use that Wiki article, and I've destroyed it many times. Look it up on nbra.info and they'll show you the truth about what the Southern Strategy actually was, as told by one of it's architects, not some anonymous contributor. :laugh:

[DragonStryk72]

then they came up with the southern strategy which made them the racist party.Dont you know history?

So what you're saying is that, historically, Republicans were not always racist, which was your point. So your point is wrong, and you cannot prove that the modern Republicans are racists, because they're not. On not one point these days have we object to Barack Obama on the basis of his race. It has been purely about his liberal policies, and the D next to his name.

And Abraham Lincoln was a racist? He's the person we coined the term "Log cabin Republican" off of. He created the Emancipation Proclamation. But yeah, it's not like the Dems opposed the end of slavery, or opposed desegregation or civil rights.... Oh, right.

So again, what decade do you live in?

so wait, a blatant bid for votes is racism now? No, that's opportunistic, and is no longer a strategy employed by the Republican Party, who have plenty of black voters, members, and leaders within the party. And you know what? If they attempted to employ those strategies today, there wouldn't be a republican party anymore. Blacks, Latinos, and other minorities in the south now make up a really significant voting block, and white people aren't going in for the racist crap either these days, so basically, no, that strategy can no longer work.

But let's talk about racism for a moment: When liberal media outlet MSNBC was covering the tea party rallies, they showed a man's white button up shirt, along with the assault rifle he had shoulder slung, but not all of it. In fact, they never showed his hands or face. See, it turns out that the man was black, and that would've hurt MSNBC's argument that the TEA party is racist.

But hey, it's so understanding and accepting of you to pre-judged every single member of a group based on an old stereotype. Not hypocritical at all.... Oh wait.

[Gaffer]

What do the Civil War, the KKK, Jim Crowe, segregation and the war on poverty all have in common?

They were all started by democrats.