Tomorrow Is Going To Be A Bad Day On Wall Street

[Kathianne]

The dollar is falling fast, so the fed is cutting rates again? WTF!!! Run on Bears Sterns necessitated the bailout, now the pennies on the dollar buy out. Even I can see this is a dangerous situation and I avoid all things economic:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120571415812440357.html?mod=special_coverage


Asia Stocks Tumble; U.S. Dollar Sinks
A Wall Street Journal NEWS ROUNDUP
Word Count: 305 | Companies Featured in This Article: Mazda Motor, Canon, Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group, SIA Engineering

TOKYO -- Japan's benchmark Nikkei 225 Stock Average fell 4.2% Monday morning as investors were spooked by the severe problems in the U.S. financial system, as highlighted by the fire sale of Bears Stearns to J.P. Morgan.

The dollar weakened its lowest in more than 12 years, trading below 97 yen to the dollar. The greenback recently bought 96.59 yen, compared with ...


Related:

http://volokh.com/posts/1205715488.shtml


Bear Stearns Collapses:

JP Morgan is buying the company, recently valued at well over $100 a share, and selling for over $50 as recently as last Thursday, for $2 a share. Bear Stearns is a victim of the subprime debacle. What's next? Perhaps the collapse of large hedge funds that leveraged their investments in mortgage-backed securities? A similar collapse of a major international bank like Citicorp?

I've said it before (e.g.), and I'll say it again. I simply didn't, and still don't, understand how anyone could have thought that giving people, often people with terrible credit histories, mortgages with no money down and often with no documentation of income--and after an unprecedented increase in prices left the market especially vulnerable to a downturn in prices--was a good idea. Maybe if I had studied for an MBA in Harvard and worked my way up to the top of the investment banking industry it would somehow have made sense to me.

[truthmatters]

The US has a pretty dismal economic future right now. Many of us tried to warn of the dangers of the subPrime market over the last couple of years and were told we were just doom sayers. Regulations placed in a timely manner could have averted a good part of this mess but too many in power did not want to face the music. Now we will suffer for some years to come for their failure to act. Im sure you will find a way to absolve them of any responsibility though.

[Sitarro]

The US has a pretty dismal economic future right now. Many of us tried to warn of the dangers of the subPrime market over the last couple of years and were told we were just doom sayers. Regulations placed in a timely manner could have averted a good part of this mess but too many in power did not want to face the music. Now we will suffer for some years to come for their failure to act. Im sure you will find a way to absolve them of any responsibility though.

Do the people that bought the homes they couldn't afford have any responsibility? Oh, that's right, you're a Democrat, people have no responsibility....... only those awful corporations and of course the Bush Administration.

[truthmatters]

You can refuse to face the investigations into loan fraud by the lenders if you wish. It doesnt make you right it just makes you blind.


http://foia.fbi.gov/mortgage_fraud.htm

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
PRIVACY IMPACT ASSESSMENT (PIA)
Mortgage Fraud Database
November 8, 2005

I. BACKGROUND

This PIA is conducted pursuant to the E-Government Act of 2002, P.L. 107-347, the accompanying guidelines issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) on September 26, 2003, and the FBI's PIA guidelines.

Mortgage fraud is a significant and growing concern in the United States. Mortgage fraud schemes are perpetrated by individuals acting alone or in collusion with borrowers, loan originators, or real estate professionals. All mortgage fraud schemes contain a material misstatement, misrepresentation or omission relied upon by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan. Given the significant role of mortgages in our economy, mortgage fraud has been recognized as a significant criminal problem by the FBI and has been treated accordingly. To that end, the Atlanta Field Office (ATFO) has a Mortgage Fraud Working Group which investigates mortgage fraud violations.

[Yurt]

i'm sure there was loan fraud on the lenders part, i'm sure the lenders also lent money to those who they knew probably shouldn't get a loan........wait for it.......wait...........................

those people did sign on the dotted line......right?

[truthmatters]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/29/business/main3767307.shtml?source=RSSattr=Business_3767307

Deregulation of the lenders allowed them to get away with this crap and the lack of action in a timely manner by our gov allowed it to reach devastating purportions.

You want to blame the little guy for shit that hurt them and want to completely pass over the people who made all the money off this scam.

Why do you always do that kind of crap?

[Yurt]

i'm sure there was loan fraud on the lenders part, i'm sure the lenders also lent money to those who they knew probably shouldn't get a loan........wait for it.......wait...........................

those people did sign on the dotted line......right?


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/29/business/main3767307.shtml?source=RSSattr=Business_3767307

Deregulation of the lenders allowed them to get away with this crap and the lack of action in a timely manner by our gov allowed it to reach devastating purportions.

You want to blame the little guy for shit that hurt them and want to completely pass over the people who made all the money off this scam.

Why do you always do that kind of crap?

try reading what i actually wrote before you go howard dean on me....

[truthmatters]

http://www.azcentral.com/business/homesales/articles/1021bad-loans1021.html

This is part of the fraud.

[DragonStryk72]

Do the people that bought the homes they couldn't afford have any responsibility? Oh, that's right, you're a Democrat, people have no responsibility....... only those awful corporations and of course the Bush Administration.

In fairness, the people with the bad credit histories, should never have been able to get the loans in the first place. It's kind of like how you don't hand the car keys to a convicted drunk driver right before you enter a bar. Some blame, yes, lies in the companies who allowed these loans, and some lies with the people who took the loans knowing that they were not good for the money. Only with all the parties involved in the CF do we get to its origins

[avatar4321]

you know, i have mixed feelings on this. yes i know the weaker dollar is bad for the economy, but i also know that the federal interest rate dropping makes my student loans a heck of a lot cheaper.

[truthmatters]

But after signing the loan documents, the couple quickly wanted out of the deal. They couldn't get copies of the papers or answers about why the figures didn't match what had been promised and why some lines on the document were blank, Elizabeth said. But it was too late.

Now, the couple is at risk of losing their home because they can't afford the mortgage payments and can't refinance because of a prepayment penalty they said they were never told existed.

[avatar4321]

But after signing the loan documents, the couple quickly wanted out of the deal. They couldn't get copies of the papers or answers about why the figures didn't match what had been promised and why some lines on the document were blank, Elizabeth said. But it was too late.

Now, the couple is at risk of losing their home because they can't afford the mortgage payments and can't refinance because of a prepayment penalty they said they were never told existed.

This is why you make sure you read the document and make sure you get copies.

It's a bad idea to get into financial deals without reading fine print. This is common sense.

[DragonStryk72]

This is why you make sure you read the document and make sure you get copies.

It's a bad idea to get into financial deals without reading fine print. This is common sense.

In counter-point, I would say... Have you actually looked at the mortgage forms? Seriously, it likes we need a lawyer these days for absolutely anything, because every business deal uses the least possible amount of plain simple english. We shouldn't need a master's degree just to understand our rental or mortgage agreement.

[truthmatters]

If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

[Kathianne]

Sort of OT, but related. New blog entry:

http://blog.debatepolicy.com/2008/03/17/good-intentions-gone-awry/

[Kathianne]

But after signing the loan documents, the couple quickly wanted out of the deal. They couldn't get copies of the papers or answers about why the figures didn't match what had been promised and why some lines on the document were blank, Elizabeth said. But it was too late.

Now, the couple is at risk of losing their home because they can't afford the mortgage payments and can't refinance because of a prepayment penalty they said they were never told existed.

If all you write is fact, that would be fraud. You have 72hours in IL, to cancel a mortgage purchase.

[Yurt]

In counter-point, I would say... Have you actually looked at the mortgage forms? Seriously, it likes we need a lawyer these days for absolutely anything, because every business deal uses the least possible amount of plain simple english. We shouldn't need a master's degree just to understand our rental or mortgage agreement.

then don't sign the agreement if you can't understand it.



If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

how many were tricked? i am willing to wager less than 10% (being generous) of those in default.

if you don't want to sign, don't. get a different lender OR negotiate for a different contract with different terms. no one is forcing you to buy that house with money that is not yours.

i'll concede that documents are complex now, however, if you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a life time purchase, then maybe a lawyer for review isn't so bad. also, ask to take the form home, read all of it. if you have questions, take it back and ask them to clarify. anything that really means anything has to be clear on the face of the document, if its hidden and not expected, then odds are it won't fly.

[Kathianne]

If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

If you can't read and understand, you should have an attorney for about $300 tops. Worth every penny. I wouldn't buy a home without one, though I could understand it, just don't want to take up everyone's time like that. Besides, I feel safer having someone to blame if fraud was committed, then I could go after the mortgage lender and my attorney, for malpractice. :coffee:

[stephanie]

If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

Oh for crying out loud...
NOBODY held a friggin gun to their head to make them SIGN on the dotted line...
And if they signed without knowing what is was all about, then they deserve everything that is happening to them..
It's not our responsibility to educate these people...if they don't know what is going on, that's all on them...

But...I will give them this....:boohoo:

[Yurt]

If you can't read and understand, you should have an attorney for about $30,000 tops. Worth every penny. I wouldn't buy a home without one, though I could understand it, just don't want to take up everyone's time like that. Besides, I feel safer having someone to blame if fraud was committed, then I could go after the mortgage lender and my not my attorney, for malpractice. :coffee:

eh em, much better :coffee:

[Kathianne]

eh em, much better :coffee:

:laugh2: You screwed that up in my quote so bad, that I went back to edit myself, then I 'got it.' :slap: :laugh2:

[Yurt]

:laugh2: You screwed that up in my quote, so bad that I went back to edit myself, then I 'got it.' :slap: :laugh2:

:dance:

[Kathianne]

:dance:

LOL! Now I had to, really, edit that one. ;)

[diuretic]

Do the people that bought the homes they couldn't afford have any responsibility? Oh, that's right, you're a Democrat, people have no responsibility....... only those awful corporations and of course the Bush Administration.

When the rubble is being dug through the villains will be identified, the smart-arses who developed all these financial "instruments". Come on for crying out loud, someone developed these loans and someone knew that they were to be offered to people who were bad credit risks and someone "re-packaged" the dodgy loans and sold them off in other "instruments". And you only want to focus on the poor bastards who were sucked in to the loans and who will lose their homes over it. This is what happens when a financial system is heavily deregulated - and that's down to the politicians. And the greedy bastards in the financial sector took advantage of the deregulation to do this. It's rippling across the world and everyone knows exactly what happened and who the evil bastards are and they're not looking at the borrowers.

[diuretic]

Oh by the way - the word around the world is that this is bad for everyone. Bear Stearns went belly up but was 'saved' by JPMorgan and the Fed. It is a very, very ugly situation, trivialising it by trying to blame the borrowers is like holding your nose as you stand on the deck of the Titanic - bloody pointless.

[stephanie]

When the rubble is being dug through the villains will be identified, the smart-arses who developed all these financial "instruments". Come on for crying out loud, someone developed these loans and someone knew that they were to be offered to people who were bad credit risks and someone "re-packaged" the dodgy loans and sold them off in other "instruments". And you only want to focus on the poor bastards who were sucked in to the loans and who will lose their homes over it. This is what happens when a financial system is heavily deregulated - and that's down to the politicians. And the greedy bastards in the financial sector took advantage of the deregulation to do this. It's rippling across the world and everyone knows exactly what happened and who the evil bastards are and they're not looking at the borrowers.


and in your world.....
Only the GOVERMENT.........can save all your asses??

How friggen sad..when you all can't even think for yourselves, without the GOVERMENT bailing your lames asses out...:poke:

[Kathianne]

Oh by the way - the word around the world is that this is bad for everyone. Bear Stearns went belly up but was 'saved' by JPMorgan and the Fed. It is a very, very ugly situation, trivialising it by trying to blame the borrowers is like holding your nose as you stand on the deck of the Titanic - bloody pointless.

Oh it was not just the borrowers, for certain. But yes, the borrowers should not be bailed out. BTW, Bear Stearns was bought by JPC, at $2 a share. There are bulls too.

You seem angry a bit today, something wrong?

[DragonStryk72]

then don't sign the agreement if you can't understand it.




how many were tricked? i am willing to wager less than 10% (being generous) of those in default.

if you don't want to sign, don't. get a different lender OR negotiate for a different contract with different terms. no one is forcing you to buy that house with money that is not yours.

i'll concede that documents are complex now, however, if you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a life time purchase, then maybe a lawyer for review isn't so bad. also, ask to take the form home, read all of it. if you have questions, take it back and ask them to clarify. anything that really means anything has to be clear on the face of the document, if its hidden and not expected, then odds are it won't fly.

My point, Yurt, is that we should not NEED a lawyer to work out these details. If the law is supposed to be there to protect us, then one of those protections needs to be that it should not require a lawyer just get a home, one of the basic necessities in our country. It should never become a thing where the public cannot understand the written rules, but yet, that is what we have now.

[Kathianne]

My point, Yurt, is that we should not NEED a lawyer to work out these details. If the law is supposed to be there to protect us, then one of those protections needs to be that it should not require a lawyer just get a home, one of the basic necessities in our country. It should never become a thing where the public cannot understand the written rules, but yet, that is what we have now.

Legal contracts are written in legal language. It's not hard, just time consuming, which is problematic when there needs to be so many papers at the closing. They are necessary: county, city, all attorneys, state, realtor, buyer, seller, all lienholders....

[DragonStryk72]

Legal contracts are written in legal language. It's not hard, just time consuming, which is problematic when there needs to be so many papers at the closing. They are necessary: county, city, all attorneys, state, realtor, buyer, seller, all lienholders....

I argue that it does not need to be as complicated as it has been made. The practice of making legalese difficult is actually one that was used by aristocracy to keep it separate of the masses, and is ill-fitted for our own society. We need to find a way for these documents to be finished, but not without people being able to understand what's written without a lawyer to read it all for them.

[Kathianne]

I argue that it does not need to be as complicated as it has been made. The practice of making legalese difficult is actually one that was used by aristocracy to keep it separate of the masses, and is ill-fitted for our own society. We need to find a way for these documents to be finished, but not without people being able to understand what's written without a lawyer to read it all for them.

Go for it!

[stephanie]

I argue that it does not need to be as complicated as it has been made. The practice of making legalese difficult is actually one that was used by aristocracy to keep it separate of the masses, and is ill-fitted for our own society. We need to find a way for these documents to be finished, but not without people being able to understand what's written without a lawyer to read it all for them.


What the hell is so wrong...with getting someone else to read the fine print..??

It's like buying a used car...you take it to a mechanic to see whats wrong with it before you buy..........or suffer the consequence

buyer BEWARE...........

The Scary thing.......is we have all these UNINFORMED people voting for our President........jezzzzz aren't we lucky

[diuretic]

and in your world.....
Only the GOVERMENT.........can save all your asses??

How friggen sad..when you all can't even think for yourselves, without the GOVERMENT bailing your lames asses out...:poke:

Think of it as common sense stephanie. We trust our government to look after our interests or we boot them out and get another one. The government is able to do things that any of us as individuals simply can't do. Rhetoric doesn't cut it in the real world.

[diuretic]

Oh it was not just the borrowers, for certain. But yes, the borrowers should not be bailed out. BTW, Bear Stearns was bought by JPC, at $2 a share. There are bulls too.

You seem angry a bit today, something wrong?

Not angry, just frustrated that the real cause of this collapse - which is affecting us as well - isn't being identified. I mean I'm not a financial expert, all I can do is read the reports and try and make sense. But I do read the reports and they're not coming down on the borrowers yet I keep reading that point hammered home again and again. It's trite to say it but if this really does cause US domestic and international damage then there's a lesson to be learned but if the message being put about is that it's "blame the borrowers" then it will happen again.

Jeez if I was a Marxist I'd be cheering with joy instead of wondering what the hell is going to happen next.

[Kathianne]

Think of it as common sense stephanie. We trust our government to look after our interests or we boot them out and get another one. The government is able to do things that any of us as individuals simply can't do. Rhetoric doesn't cut it in the real world.

How does your government protect against people being stupid enough to sign something they don't understand? Why not wait until they do, make someone explain how mortgage works?

Then again, has your government encourage lenders to lend to people not previously qualified? With little or no downpayments? Bad or no credit history? Bad income to debt ratios? What did they think would happen?

[stephanie]

Think of it as common sense Stephanie. We trust our government to look after our interests or we boot them out and get another one. The government is able to do things that any of us as individuals simply can't do. Rhetoric doesn't cut it in the real world.

You all stopped living in a Real World a long time ago..

What you see us fighting for now here in the United States..(is the slave to your goverment life) that you all live in.........
let me tell you.....we are probably fighting our last breaths.....but we will not go down so easy...Too bad you all did....

My love to my fellow Aussies...:cheers2:

[Kathianne]

Not angry, just frustrated that the real cause of this collapse - which is affecting us as well - isn't being identified. I mean I'm not a financial expert, all I can do is read the reports and try and make sense. But I do read the reports and they're not coming down on the borrowers yet I keep reading that point hammered home again and again. It's trite to say it but if this really does cause US domestic and international damage then there's a lesson to be learned but if the message being put about is that it's "blame the borrowers" then it will happen again.

Jeez if I was a Marxist I'd be cheering with joy instead of wondering what the hell is going to happen next.

There is no doubt that the housing collapse is a huge part of it. I live in an area where value hasn't fallen too severely and foreclosures are not evident, at least from the street. But if my neighbor goes into foreclosure, I lose value. I suppose that is why you keep hearing about it.

As for anxiety, believe me, I share it.

[Gunny]

You can refuse to face the investigations into loan fraud by the lenders if you wish. It doesnt make you right it just makes you blind.


http://foia.fbi.gov/mortgage_fraud.htm

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
PRIVACY IMPACT ASSESSMENT (PIA)
Mortgage Fraud Database
November 8, 2005

I. BACKGROUND

This PIA is conducted pursuant to the E-Government Act of 2002, P.L. 107-347, the accompanying guidelines issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) on September 26, 2003, and the FBI's PIA guidelines.

Mortgage fraud is a significant and growing concern in the United States. Mortgage fraud schemes are perpetrated by individuals acting alone or in collusion with borrowers, loan originators, or real estate professionals. All mortgage fraud schemes contain a material misstatement, misrepresentation or omission relied upon by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan. Given the significant role of mortgages in our economy, mortgage fraud has been recognized as a significant criminal problem by the FBI and has been treated accordingly. To that end, the Atlanta Field Office (ATFO) has a Mortgage Fraud Working Group which investigates mortgage fraud violations.


You mean since the basic tenet of YOUR link is that "Individuals acting alone or in collusion with ...." backs up exactly what he posted?

Yeah, you're still slayin' 'em .....:laugh:

[diuretic]

How does your government protect against people being stupid enough to sign something they don't understand? Why not wait until they do, make someone explain how mortgage works?

Then again, has your government encourage lenders to lend to people not previously qualified? With little or no downpayments? Bad or no credit history? Bad income to debt ratios? What did they think would happen?

Our finance industry is much more regulated than the US Kathianne, that's the short answer. Until the mid-1980s we were really tightly regulated. We had a fair bit of deregulation in terms of allowing foreign banks in but we still didn't throw of regulation completely. We do have non-bank lenders such as mortgage brokers but they are still regulated to a reasonable degree to ensure prudential lending.

This is down to pure greed and financial manipulation and the borrowers in the sub-prime were on the marks for the cons. It's what happens when you deregulate because of ideology and not business sense.

[diuretic]

You all stopped living in a Real World a long time ago..

What you see us fighting for now here in the United States..(is the slave to your goverment life) that you all live in.........
let me tell you.....we are probably fighting our last breaths.....but we will not go down so easy...Too bad you all did....

My love to my fellow Aussies...:cheers2:

Truth is stephanie we're more worried about water than an abstract idea. I just checked my ankles and my wrists though. No chains. :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

When the rubble is being dug through the villains will be identified, the smart-arses who developed all these financial "instruments". Come on for crying out loud, someone developed these loans and someone knew that they were to be offered to people who were bad credit risks and someone "re-packaged" the dodgy loans and sold them off in other "instruments". And you only want to focus on the poor bastards who were sucked in to the loans and who will lose their homes over it. This is what happens when a financial system is heavily deregulated - and that's down to the politicians. And the greedy bastards in the financial sector took advantage of the deregulation to do this. It's rippling across the world and everyone knows exactly what happened and who the evil bastards are and they're not looking at the borrowers.

need to spread some around so i owe you one!

Don't worry diurectic.....MANY Americans KNOW what went on here in this mortgage SCANDAL..... we are not all burrying our heads in the sand and blaming the VICTIM....only those that are ill informed believe this is not the banking industry's scam and fault..... and i am with you, DAMN THEM! It is hurting us all.... world wide.


jd

[avatar4321]

In counter-point, I would say... Have you actually looked at the mortgage forms? Seriously, it likes we need a lawyer these days for absolutely anything, because every business deal uses the least possible amount of plain simple english. We shouldn't need a master's degree just to understand our rental or mortgage agreement.

my services are for hire:cool:

[avatar4321]

If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

i do think its a good idea for the US economy for people to be able to read and get knowledge of what they are getting into. Why exactly is knowledge a bad thing?

[avatar4321]

I argue that it does not need to be as complicated as it has been made. The practice of making legalese difficult is actually one that was used by aristocracy to keep it separate of the masses, and is ill-fitted for our own society. We need to find a way for these documents to be finished, but not without people being able to understand what's written without a lawyer to read it all for them.

The legal community is working on making documents clearer. its just takes time for some of the old timers to get into the process.

[avatar4321]

Think of it as common sense stephanie. We trust our government to look after our interests or we boot them out and get another one. The government is able to do things that any of us as individuals simply can't do. Rhetoric doesn't cut it in the real world.

There is the problem. Trusting anyone to look out for our interests rather than looking out for our own.

[avatar4321]

need to spread some around so i owe you one!

Don't worry diurectic.....MANY Americans KNOW what went on here in this mortgage SCANDAL..... we are not all burrying our heads in the sand and blaming the VICTIM....only those that are ill informed believe this is not the banking industry's scam and fault..... and i am with you, DAMN THEM! It is hurting us all.... world wide.


jd

always someone elses fault.

[LiberalNation]

Man price of oil which means price of gas went sky high again today........

[Yurt]

My point, Yurt, is that we should not NEED a lawyer to work out these details. If the law is supposed to be there to protect us, then one of those protections needs to be that it should not require a lawyer just get a home, one of the basic necessities in our country. It should never become a thing where the public cannot understand the written rules, but yet, that is what we have now.

as kathy said, those contracts are written by lawyers. even the standard forms some states have. you don't have a right to have a contract you willingly enter into with a private party be "simple." you are buying a house, probably the biggest purchase for most people their entire lives. it is not a simple a process.

its like this, most people use brokers to assist with finding/purchasing/selling a house. you don't have to, but due to the complexity of the matter, most do and most benefit by using brokers. brokers can cost thousands of dollars. using an attorney to safeguard your rights over the usual 30-year loan for probably a 1000 or less (depending on lawyer/contract) is well worth the investment.

and again, you don't have to, as i said in my post. take it home and read it....actually read my post again, i'm not repeating myself.

[manu1959]

looks like you should have gotten up early and bought jp morgan chase.....

[Kathianne]

Man price of oil which means price of gas went sky high again today........

But then fell.

[truthmatters]

Not angry, just frustrated that the real cause of this collapse - which is affecting us as well - isn't being identified. I mean I'm not a financial expert, all I can do is read the reports and try and make sense. But I do read the reports and they're not coming down on the borrowers yet I keep reading that point hammered home again and again. It's trite to say it but if this really does cause US domestic and international damage then there's a lesson to be learned but if the message being put about is that it's "blame the borrowers" then it will happen again.

Jeez if I was a Marxist I'd be cheering with joy instead of wondering what the hell is going to happen next.


I just dont understand my fellow Americans who insist on blaming the weakest link in the entire chain. The FBI is investigating dozens of lenders for all kinds of abuse including lying to and fooling the little guy. In the mean time other countries are not likely to buy any of our mortgage packages as they have in decades past and our economy is screwed. They just refuse to believe the powers that be set this up because they do not have the US's best interest in mind. Their real loyalties lie in the corporate world.

[JohnDoe]

always someone elses fault.

Really....someone ELSES'S FAULT? And NOT the people that created the schemes.... for these HIGH RISK mortgages?

Tell that to the people that owned Bears and Sterns stock and other financial stocks now doomed to fall AFTER the individuals and executives working for them skimmed their share of the boom money from all the mortgages they issued to people that DID NOT QUALIFY under any reasonable business measures...

Well, I differ with your simple analysis and condemnation of the victims ONLY...

The people who caused it, in my opinion, are the people to blame....not the person that were scammed.....the scam artist is to blame.....



jd

[manu1959]

Really....someone ELSES'S FAULT? And NOT the people that created the schemes.... for these HIGH RISK mortgages?

Tell that to the people that owned Bears and Sterns stock and other financial stocks now doomed to fall AFTER the individuals and executives working for them skimmed their share of the boom money from all the mortgages they issued to people that DID NOT QUALIFY under any reasonable business measures...

Well, I differ with your simple analysis and condemnation of the victims ONLY...

The people who caused it, in my opinion, are the people to blame....not the person that were scammed.....the scam artist is to blame.....



jd

in order to take out a loan in the old day you needed to show tax returns

then it was pay stubs

then it was bank accounts

then it was simply ask the question..."how much do you make?"

so sure the regulations should not have been relaxed......

but who was lying to whom?.....

[manu1959]

bear sterns stockholders set to reject $2 / share takeover....

[avatar4321]

Really....someone ELSES'S FAULT? And NOT the people that created the schemes.... for these HIGH RISK mortgages?

Tell that to the people that owned Bears and Sterns stock and other financial stocks now doomed to fall AFTER the individuals and executives working for them skimmed their share of the boom money from all the mortgages they issued to people that DID NOT QUALIFY under any reasonable business measures...

Well, I differ with your simple analysis and condemnation of the victims ONLY...

The people who caused it, in my opinion, are the people to blame....not the person that were scammed.....the scam artist is to blame.....



jd

What you fail to see is the business is just as much as victim because they will not be repaid. You don't benefit by providing high risk loans and not being repaid.

[manu1959]

What you fail to see is the business is just as much as victim because they will not be repaid. You don't benefit by providing high risk loans and not being repaid.

actually those that made the original loans and packaged them did make money those that bought the packaged loans will loose.......

those who took out the loan they could not afford will loose ......

those who pay taxes will loose as they get to pay for the bail out .....

those who can afford to by the forclosed homes and rent them will make money .....

[JohnDoe]

in order to take out a loan in the old day you needed to show tax returns

then it was pay stubs

then it was bank accounts

then it was simply ask the question..."how much do you make?"

so sure the regulations should not have been relaxed......

but who was lying to whom?.....in the old days, which is the fall of 1998 in my case, my husband and I who were making in the 6 digits at that time had to show our income tax returns, our pay stubs, our credit report ratings, list our bank accounts both checking and savings and list all of our assets and debts including all credit cards, remaining amounts....

I also owned a home in the early 80's with a mortgage rate of 13.5% :eek: and they got all but my first born child's blood(if i had a child)......in tax returns, paystubs, credit card info and amounts owed, bank accounts, etc...
And you COULD NOT BORROW money whose mortgage/ loan/ credit card payments added up to more than 37% of your total income, and could not have more than 28% of income in your credit card payments.... they had some SOUND requirements to insure their shareholders a decent return without the high risk....
*
You had to have 10% to put down on the home too...20% if you wanted to skip the PMI PAYMENTS..

Sooooo, I have no idea what your talking about when it comes to "the old days"....this mortgage for my second home in 1997 was through Bank of America, and they held it without selling it off right away....

In 2003, we refinanced that mortgage about 3.0% points lower on a balloon mortgage at 5% for the 7 years....(but knew we were selling in 3 years from the issuance), and had to list all assets and debts, and previous year's tax return, but no pay stubs, cuz neither of us were wrking the month we refinanced, but the supposed equity built up in the house allowed the refinancing to go through, even without jobs I guess?

I don't know who was offering these loans to people without getting the proper info on the people borrowing....very weak and unsound business practices...

And one show after another on HGTV....House Hunters, and My first Home...all showed for the most part Smart, white, two income families being TALKED IN TO the no interest loans..... recomended by the realtor and their mortgage brokers who were connected/recommended through their realtor, and the appraiser was also recommended by the realtor, along with a building inspector recommended by the realty...it was a PUSH from all ends on going for these type loans.... Some of these couples on these shows even went through why they were going with these loans, BASED ON THE INFO the realtor and brokers RECOMMENDED and as I said PUSHED.....if everyone told these couples that they were doing the right thing, and the lawyer they had present at their closings did not stop them either from taking out these loans then how can they be to blame for being shammed?

I just think Flooding the realestate market with unqualified buyers, artificially increased the demand on homes...causing the pyramid scam to work....with giving loans to these unqualified people....making money off each with adding artificially high closing costs fueled the continuance perhaps? I really DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL these financial institutions were thinking? I know the realtors made a bundle and the assessors made a bundle and the brokers made a bundle by having the boom continue....thus artificial...

jd

[5stringJeff]

If you really think its a good idea for the US economy for people to have to be able to read and understand an entire mortgage document then you are not very wise.

These people were tricked into mortgages they were mislead about. If you insist that people be able to read and fully understand mortgage documents then people will have to have to go to law school to be able to buy a home. This has never been the situation in the US or anywhere else.

TM, this is utterly ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that people sign a contract they haven't read, and shouldn't be able to understand, and then be held not responsible for fulfilling their part of the contractual obligations?

[Kathianne]

actually those that made the original loans and packaged them did make money those that bought the packaged loans will loose.......

those who took out the loan they could not afford will loose ......

those who pay taxes will loose as they get to pay for the bail out .....

those who can afford to by the forclosed homes and rent them will make money .....

That's what I've been thinking. :cheers2:

[Kathianne]

What you fail to see is the business is just as much as victim because they will not be repaid. You don't benefit by providing high risk loans and not being repaid.

Yep, ask Bear Stearn.

[Kathianne]

bear sterns stockholders set to reject $2 / share takeover....

Then they'll be forced to declare bankruptcy, that's what I hear.

[5stringJeff]

When the rubble is being dug through the villains will be identified, the smart-arses who developed all these financial "instruments". Come on for crying out loud, someone developed these loans and someone knew that they were to be offered to people who were bad credit risks and someone "re-packaged" the dodgy loans and sold them off in other "instruments". And you only want to focus on the poor bastards who were sucked in to the loans and who will lose their homes over it. This is what happens when a financial system is heavily deregulated - and that's down to the politicians. And the greedy bastards in the financial sector took advantage of the deregulation to do this. It's rippling across the world and everyone knows exactly what happened and who the evil bastards are and they're not looking at the borrowers.

You hit on a good point. Mortgage-backed securities were sold around the world, to diversify the risk from subprime mortgages. Again, though, no one forced any investment company, bank, etc. to buy those derivative instruments. People bought them because they wanted the extra return - and along with the extra return, they got some extra risk, which bit them. That's part of the free market.

[truthmatters]

That is part of the fraud the FBI is investigating. They hid the level of sub prime in the packages they sold. What does this mean? it menas the world market will not want to buy these packages any more. Do you understand that that is not good for the American financial outlook?

[5stringJeff]

That is part of the fraud the FBI is investigating. They hid the level of sub prime in the packages they sold. What does this mean? it menas the world market will not want to buy these packages any more. Do you understand that that is not good for the American financial outlook?

I understand very well. I'm taking business finance from an investment banker, and we talk about this kind of things often.

And while they may be some fraud here and there, I seriously doubt that it is as widespread as you insinuate.

[JohnDoe]

I understand very well. I'm taking business finance from an investment banker, and we talk about this kind of things often.

And while they may be some fraud here and there, I seriously doubt that it is as widespread as you insinuate.

From your mouth to God's ears, but that is not what I am hearing about the fraud....... :( We will see.....

jd

[Kathianne]

I understand very well. I'm taking business finance from an investment banker, and we talk about this kind of things often.

And while they may be some fraud here and there, I seriously doubt that it is as widespread as you insinuate.

That's been my point all along. Fraud should be prosecuted. All sub-prime loans are not fraud, rather the accomplishment of the 'enlightened' wanting the poor to own their own homes.

Nixon had that right, 'ownership' requires commitment and pride. He proposed a 'rent to own' subsidized housing, realizing the failure of subsidized housing. He 'got' that high rises and children didn't mix. I don't know about the rest of the country, but Chicago just woke up to that within the past 10 years or so.

The deal was, the government pays x percentage each month, the lessee pays y. The lessee portion would be held in escrow until a downpayment was reached. Thus x would actually be paying the rent, while y was saving and attending classes about home owning. This was envisioned for 2-5 years. Then the lessee would become a mortgagee.

Seems better than what we ended up with, no?

[JohnDoe]

What you fail to see is the business is just as much as victim because they will not be repaid. You don't benefit by providing high risk loans and not being repaid.
Then WHY OH WHY did these business execs make BAD decisions and MARKET these high risk loans to the financially unsound degree that they did Avatar? Because they KNEW they would go bankrupt off of them? I don't think so...i think they were blinded by greed.

And you are forgetting to mention us getting hurt, the every day citizen that had to put up that $30 billion of our taxes in the bail out offer...

Then every bank that goes under, we, the tax payer will have to pay every bank account saved at them up to $100k among other bailout insurance the feds have....

This ain; t pretty and it affects the whole world.... and was BAD BUSINESS PRACTICE and probably fraud that caused this...stemmed from the deregulation of high risk loans.....

jd

[Kathianne]

Then WHY OH WHY did these business execs make BAD decisions and MARKET these high risk loans to the financially unsound degree that they did Avatar? Because they KNEW they would go bankrupt off of them? I don't think so...i think they were blinded by greed.

And you are forgetting to mention us getting hurt, the every day citizen that had to put up that $30 billion of our taxes in the bail out offer...

Then every bank that goes under, we, the tax payer will have to pay every bank account saved at them up to $100k among other bailout insurance the feds have....

This ain; t pretty and it affects the whole world.... and was BAD BUSINESS PRACTICE and probably fraud that caused this...stemmed from the deregulation of high risk loans.....



jd
How about they didn't want to be 'discriminating' against Blacks, women, Hispanics, etc. The pressure has been on for nearly 20 years to get these folks into the 'American Dream', ready or not.

[JohnDoe]

How about they didn't want to be 'discriminating' against Blacks, women, Hispanics, etc. The pressure has been on for nearly 20 years to get these folks into the 'American Dream', ready or not.

NOPE! that doesn't cut it...their bonuses are not made off of black people and hispanics.....

And their business decisions are not made for any of those reasons either....

This is simply NOT how corporations run their businesses, they have the bottom line and stock holders to report to....so i do not think wanting blacks to own more homes was one of their objectives or even part of their decision making process when it comes to this...

That may have been the EXCUSE the legislators are giving for the deregulation of these banks with high risk loans that was slipped in to the bill that is now getting some focus and at the center of the controversy.....?

jd