Eat Meat?

[Classact]

I heard on the news this morning that beef cattle and swine are being sold off dramatically due to the high costs of feeding them on inflated grain costs. This would indicate that US beef and pork prices are now at rock bottom prices based on the farmers flooding the market.

Would you pay triple the current prices to eat American produced meat or will you smile and welcome meat from South America?

[Immanuel]

I heard on the news this morning that beef cattle and swine are being sold off dramatically due to the high costs of feeding them on inflated grain costs. This would indicate that US beef and pork prices are now at rock bottom prices based on the farmers flooding the market.

Would you pay triple the current prices to eat American produced meat or will you smile and welcome meat from South America?

Well, I sure as heck am not going to start eating vegetables! Blech!!!

Immie

[diuretic]

Why are grain costs up? Btw grain-fed livestock isn't usual here, it's grazed (not just on grass either) and sent to be finished off in feedlots before heading for market.

I'm betting grain is up because of ethanol.

[MtnBiker]

Soaring demand, rising oil prices and government-mandated biofuel use have sent many commodity prices to their highest levels in history. The impact is hardest in the developing world: The United Nations says increasing prices will make it tougher to meet international goals of reduced hunger. Rising prices are squeezing food aid budgets that were already falling far behind growing need caused by war and increasing weather disasters. Worse, soaring costs are adding to political instability in countries such as Afghanistan, where flour prices are up more than 60% in the past year, and as much as 80% in some areas.

The bulls may not be running on Wall Street, but they're charging in the commodities pits. Prices for some varieties of wheat are at an all-time high of more than $16 a bushel on the Minneapolis Grain Exchange. Soybean futures prices have jumped to $13.26 a bushel in Chicago trading, from less than $7.50 a bushel in 2007. Corn, which has averaged about $2.50 per bushel in recent years, is above $5 today. Rice prices have hit records. Palm oil prices, in demand for biofuels production, have risen. The U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization food price index jumped nearly 40% in 2007, following a 9% increase the previous year.


The driving force behind higher food prices: More people in developing countries are earning more money and living better. And the first step to a better standard of living is a better diet. It's a phenomenon called Engel's law, named after the 19th-century German economist, Ernst Engel. Engel's law says that as incomes increase, people spend a smaller percentage of their incomes on food — but they also switch from cheaper to more expensive food.



Full article (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-02-11-food-prices_N.htm)


And also;


That is because “agflation” is underpinned by long-running changes in diet that accompany the growing wealth of emerging economies—the Chinese consumer who ate 20kg (44lb) of meat in 1985 will scoff over 50kg of the stuff this year. That in turn pushes up demand for grain: it takes 8kg of grain to produce one of beef.


But the rise in prices is also the self-inflicted result of America's reckless ethanol subsidies. This year biofuels will take a third of America's (record) maize harvest. That affects food markets directly: fill up an SUV's fuel tank with ethanol and you have used enough maize to feed a person for a year. And it affects them indirectly, as farmers switch to maize from other crops. The 30m tonnes of extra maize going to ethanol this year amounts to half the fall in the world's overall grain stocks.



http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10252015

[Pale Rider]

ALL food costs are going up. The price of meat because of what MtnBiker posted, and other food because of the cost of fuel to trucking companies to transport it to the store.

Our country has problems, and I think a lot of it is because of the way bush has been handling the nation. I'll be so glad to see that gas bag out of the White House.

[JohnDoe]

Good Morning Classy

How long will this last before the market accomodates it though? it says 1/3 of the corn is going towards ethanol now....

I heard the other day that for the first time, the USA had to IMPORT wheat from other countries this year because there was not enough grown in the USA to accomodate the demand by us.

I also heard this was because wheat growers were converting to corn growers...

Even with knowing all of this, don't you think that in a year or 2 ...the market will adjust to more corn production? We have millions of acres of farms not being farmed, not being utilized? We have our government paying farmers NOT to farm in some cases.

I think that in time, we will grow enough corn and wheat to accomodate the entire country's food/feed needs and the ethanol demand, so much so, that this should NOT be an issue in the future....

Higher gas prices will continue to make the price of all food go up though!

And to answer your question, I would probably make allegience with one of the local farmers here to get my beef, rather than buy in to South America's but we probably have more money than most, to be able to afford that.....

Otherwise, I'd probaby have to buy in to the SAmerican cheap beef...

jd

[MtnBiker]

Some more ethanol economics;


Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax



One of the many mandates of the Energy Policy Act of 2005 calls for oil companies to increase the amount of ethanol mixed with gasoline. President Bush said, during his 2006 State of the Union address, "America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world." Let's look at some of the "wonders" of ethanol as a replacement for gasoline.



Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.



Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.



Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.


link (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/08/Big%20Corn%20and%20Ethanol%20Hoax.htm)

We need to get away from corn based ethanol.

[Hobbit]

Why are grain costs up? Btw grain-fed livestock isn't usual here, it's grazed (not just on grass either) and sent to be finished off in feedlots before heading for market.

I'm betting grain is up because of ethanol.

It's bigger than that. The first big presidential caucus of any election year is in the state of Iowa. Iowa lives, eats, breathes, sleeps, and pisses corn. It's the point of their state's existence, and their state does little besides grow corn and support those who do. Because people like to follow trends, one must typically do well at the Iowa caucus to win a presidential nomination, so every politician who's ever eyed the Oval Office bows to the corn industry. First off, there are price floors on corn. You cannot sell corn for less than a certain price. Since the price is above market value, this creates a surplus, so either the government uses our tax dollars to buy up the extra corn or they pay people with farmland to not grow anything. Most of the people who own empty farmland aren't even farmers, just investors who bought the land so they could get paid to just leave it there.

But it gets better. Until the 1970s, all soft drinks, candies, and many other products were sweetened with pure cane sugar, which is great stuff. However, the corn guys came up with this stuff called 'high fructose corn syrup,' which is a sweetener made from corn. It doesn't taste as good as cane sugar, is more expensive to produce, and is quite unhealthy, but presidential wannabes must bow to the altar of corn, so they imposed a massive tariff on all imported sugar, and since the United States doesn't have enough tropical land to grow enough sugar for all its needs, it became economically infeasible to use anything but corn syrup, and that's the crap we've been consuming ever since.

Now, the environmentalists want oil alternatives, so the corn growers come up with corn ethanol. Corn ethanol is extremely inefficient to produce, isn't any cleaner than gasoline, consumes HUGE swaths of land, and is more expensive than gas. Along comes the government with subsidies and incentives, so a bunch of corn goes into ethanol production, taking it off the food and feed market, raising the price, yet again, which is still being raised by sugar tariffs and 'farmers' who aren't growing anything. The Brazilians have come up with an ethanol program which is actually cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient than gasoline, so why haven't we seen this? It's made from sugar cane, something that can't be grown in Iowa, so there's a 54 cent/gallon tariff on it.

Now, the cascading effect is being seen in full force. Corn prices are at an all time high, and since the government has ensured that there's corn in everything, that raises the price for food across the board. Since corn is so high, many farmers who previously used their land for wheat, soy, or livestock are now switching over to corn, which, thanks to the government, will never see a price drop from increased supply. But wait, there's more. Since we provide corn to most of the world, food prices are increasing globally, especially in Mexico, where things like corn chips and corn tortillas are staples, especially among the poor. All this so some spineless politician can get a bump in the Iowa caucus.

[PostmodernProphet]

I bought seedless green grapes last week that were grown in Chili for 99 cents a pound.....bananas from who knows where that were 49 cents a pound....both of them burned up a lot of fuel getting to my grocery store.....that means farmers are getting less....and if it gets too low they won't bother to plant grape vines or banana trees.....

the same is true of hog farmers.....you can't expect food prices to stay the same as they were twenty years ago (though I can assure you that until the ethanol thing came along farmers were getting paid the same price for a bushel of corn that they were in the 70s.)......

[JohnDoe]

Some more ethanol economics;



link (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/08/Big%20Corn%20and%20Ethanol%20Hoax.htm)

We need to get away from corn based ethanol.

YES! I agree with you, i just didn't go in to it as you did and just answered the questions in the original thread post!

Is sugar better in making ethanol....seems to have worked well for Brazil, but they can grow sugarcane whereas we are limited to primarily florida and puerto rico to grow it, I believe?

What else is there that we can do? used vegetable oil?

coal and natural gas is abundant in this country....is there a way to use that to move our autos? or at least, is there a way to get natural gas up here in the middle of nowhere so I can get off oil as my heating source? :)

jd

[MtnBiker]

YES! I agree with you, i just didn't go in to it as you did and just answered the questions in the original thread post!

Is sugar better in making ethanol....seems to have worked well for Brazil, but they can grow sugarcane whereas we are limited to primarily florida and puerto rico to grow it, I believe?

What else is there that we can do? used vegetable oil?

coal and natural gas is abundant in this country....is there a way to use that to move our autos? or at least, is there a way to get natural gas up here in the middle of nowhere so I can get off oil as my heating source? :)

jd

Sugar would only encounter the same problems as corn ethanol, the distilling process requires heat to convert the starchs to alcohol, heat equals energy. So it takes energy to make energy, not to the mention the same energy input growing, harvesting and transporting the the sugar as compared to corn.

I'm not very familiar with the switch grass ethanol, but that process uses an enzyme process to convert starches to alcohol rather than distilling process.

[PostmodernProphet]

coal and natural gas is abundant in this country....is there a way to use that to move our autos? or at least, is there a way to get natural gas up here in the middle of nowhere so I can get off oil as my heating source?
the easiest is converting it to electricity first.....

[Hobbit]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal, and it is scientifically possible to use coal to power gasoline cars, but research into it is strongly opposed by the environmental movement because COAL IS TEH EEEEEEVVIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!!!!! and by the corn farmers because it's not made from corn.

[MtnBiker]

The idea of us using our food supply for energy is absurd.

[JohnDoe]

We are the Saudi Arabia of coal, and it is scientifically possible to use coal to power gasoline cars, but research into it is strongly opposed by the environmental movement because COAL IS TEH EEEEEEVVIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!!!!! and by the corn farmers because it's not made from corn.Coal, can be evil.....it puts alot of Mercury in our drinking waters....IF they do not use clean coal technology which is readily available now.....with just a little investment....

We subsidize Oil and we subsidize Natural gas with our tax monies.....

we could probably solve our gasoline problem overnight if we invested taxes in clean coal technology implementation, and invested in electric cars?

Well, not overnight, but fairly quickly perhaps?

jd

[5stringJeff]

On meat: I really don't care where the meat comes from, or if the cow had a broken leg before getting slaughtered. But meat is cheap nowadays. I just paid $2.49/lb for 90% lean ground beef. Chicken is cheap too: $1.99/lb for boneless skinless chicken breasts, $0.99/lb for boned chicken breasts.

On agriculture: Commodity prices are higher than they've been in decades. There is absolutely no good reason for the US to continue with agriculture subsidies. They're bad for trade and bad for consumers. Farmers will survive - or they'll find alternate means of feeding their families.

[PostmodernProphet]

The idea of us using our food supply for energy is absurd.

lol....chances are the only "corn" you actually consume is the sweetener in your pop.....

[DragonStryk72]

As far as meat goes, I buy questionable food from people selling from carts on street corner, so honestly, my level of caring as to where the meat comes from on that level is, well, low.

I do think that the farm subsidies need to go away. Paying someone not to grow food is what leads to this kind of problem. Were farmers fully able to grow what they wanted to grow, the market would simply correct itself, but duee to subsidies, that doesn't really happen like it needs to

[MtnBiker]

lol....chances are the only "corn" you actually consume is the sweetener in your pop.....

lol...... an assumption and a wrong one at that.........

[diuretic]

It's bigger than that. The first big presidential caucus of any election year is in the state of Iowa. Iowa lives, eats, breathes, sleeps, and pisses corn. It's the point of their state's existence, and their state does little besides grow corn and support those who do. Because people like to follow trends, one must typically do well at the Iowa caucus to win a presidential nomination, so every politician who's ever eyed the Oval Office bows to the corn industry. First off, there are price floors on corn. You cannot sell corn for less than a certain price. Since the price is above market value, this creates a surplus, so either the government uses our tax dollars to buy up the extra corn or they pay people with farmland to not grow anything. Most of the people who own empty farmland aren't even farmers, just investors who bought the land so they could get paid to just leave it there.
......

Thanks for that H, that was really informative, throws a whole lot of light on a subject I didn't know anything about.

[Yurt]

I bought seedless green grapes last week that were grown in Chili for 99 cents a pound.....bananas from who knows where that were 49 cents a pound....both of them burned up a lot of fuel getting to my grocery store.....that means farmers are getting less....and if it gets too low they won't bother to plant grape vines or banana trees.....

the same is true of hog farmers.....you can't expect food prices to stay the same as they were twenty years ago (though I can assure you that until the ethanol thing came along farmers were getting paid the same price for a bushel of corn that they were in the 70s.)......

you're lucky, mine were from mars, at least they tasted like it

[Kathianne]

Right now the farmer is probably doing better than the rest of the country:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23632933/


Why your food is costing more money
Wheat, corn, and soybean prices are surging; is ethanol to blame?
By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
MSNBC
updated 3:47 p.m. CT, Fri., March. 14, 2008

...Tough times for turkey producers
Turkey producers have been especially hard hit by a recent surge in corn and soybean prices.

But don’t say they didn’t warn you.

Exactly one year ago National Turkey Federation president Ted Seger told the House Agriculture Committee that the federal ethanol mandate would drive up corn and soybean prices and hurt consumers who eat turkey....



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/27/AR2007092702054.html


HARVESTING CASH The Ethanol Factor
Corn Farms Prosper, but Subsidies Still Flow

By Dan Morgan
Special to The Washington Post
Friday, September 28, 2007; Page A01

RADCLIFFE, Iowa -- Corn farmer Jim Handsaker has found a slew of ways to ride the heartland boom in biofuels that is reshaping the economy of rural Iowa.

He sold some of his 2006 crop this year for more than $4 a bushel, the highest price in a decade. His stake in two nearby ethanol plants brought in several thousand dollars more in dividends. Meanwhile, soaring farmland prices have pushed the value of the 400 acres he owns to around $2 million.


9/6/2007Iowa Falls, IowaA sign outside an Iowa Falls feed mall advertises the highest prices bid for corn in a decade.
A sign outside an Iowa Falls feed mall advertises the highest prices bid for corn in a decade. (Dan Morgan - Twp - The Washington Post)

Even so, come October he will get a subsidy check from the government, part of a $1.6 billion installment that the U.S. Department of Agriculture will send to corn farmers...

[JohnDoe]

On meat: I really don't care where the meat comes from, or if the cow had a broken leg before getting slaughtered. But meat is cheap nowadays. I just paid $2.49/lb for 90% lean ground beef. Chicken is cheap too: $1.99/lb for boneless skinless chicken breasts, $0.99/lb for boned chicken breasts.

On agriculture: Commodity prices are higher than they've been in decades. There is absolutely no good reason for the US to continue with agriculture subsidies. They're bad for trade and bad for consumers. Farmers will survive - or they'll find alternate means of feeding their families.less than 5 years ago, ground beef lean 90% was $1.49 a pound and chicken could be bought for 69 cents a pound and boneless breasts $99 cents to $1.29 a pound

Sirloin steak was $1.99 a pound.

Food has gone up tremendously imo, at least food produced in the usa...

I never get those grapes from chili at a price or good prices on Bananas up here in Maine....Bananas are $1.29 a pound way up here..... :( Maybe if I had a bigger grocery store available I would see some of those cheaper prices but the local grocer is a small store...?

[Dilloduck]

It's bigger than that. The first big presidential caucus of any election year is in the state of Iowa. Iowa lives, eats, breathes, sleeps, and pisses corn. It's the point of their state's existence, and their state does little besides grow corn and support those who do. Because people like to follow trends, one must typically do well at the Iowa caucus to win a presidential nomination, so every politician who's ever eyed the Oval Office bows to the corn industry. First off, there are price floors on corn. You cannot sell corn for less than a certain price. Since the price is above market value, this creates a surplus, so either the government uses our tax dollars to buy up the extra corn or they pay people with farmland to not grow anything. Most of the people who own empty farmland aren't even farmers, just investors who bought the land so they could get paid to just leave it there.

But it gets better. Until the 1970s, all soft drinks, candies, and many other products were sweetened with pure cane sugar, which is great stuff. However, the corn guys came up with this stuff called 'high fructose corn syrup,' which is a sweetener made from corn. It doesn't taste as good as cane sugar, is more expensive to produce, and is quite unhealthy, but presidential wannabes must bow to the altar of corn, so they imposed a massive tariff on all imported sugar, and since the United States doesn't have enough tropical land to grow enough sugar for all its needs, it became economically infeasible to use anything but corn syrup, and that's the crap we've been consuming ever since.

Now, the environmentalists want oil alternatives, so the corn growers come up with corn ethanol. Corn ethanol is extremely inefficient to produce, isn't any cleaner than gasoline, consumes HUGE swaths of land, and is more expensive than gas. Along comes the government with subsidies and incentives, so a bunch of corn goes into ethanol production, taking it off the food and feed market, raising the price, yet again, which is still being raised by sugar tariffs and 'farmers' who aren't growing anything. The Brazilians have come up with an ethanol program which is actually cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient than gasoline, so why haven't we seen this? It's made from sugar cane, something that can't be grown in Iowa, so there's a 54 cent/gallon tariff on it.

Now, the cascading effect is being seen in full force. Corn prices are at an all time high, and since the government has ensured that there's corn in everything, that raises the price for food across the board. Since corn is so high, many farmers who previously used their land for wheat, soy, or livestock are now switching over to corn, which, thanks to the government, will never see a price drop from increased supply. But wait, there's more. Since we provide corn to most of the world, food prices are increasing globally, especially in Mexico, where things like corn chips and corn tortillas are staples, especially among the poor. All this so some spineless politician can get a bump in the Iowa caucus.


Most of the people who own empty farmland aren't even farmers, just investors who bought the land so they could get paid to just leave it there.

and who will own it when it becomes worth its weight in gold ?

[JohnDoe]

and who will own it when it becomes worth its weight in gold ?

Not the people who paid the owners not to farm it.

[Dilloduck]

Not the people who paid the owners not to farm it.

nor the people who settled it and have cared for it.

[5stringJeff]

less than 5 years ago, ground beef lean 90% was $1.49 a pound and chicken could be bought for 69 cents a pound and boneless breasts $99 cents to $1.29 a pound

Sirloin steak was $1.99 a pound.

Food has gone up tremendously imo, at least food produced in the usa...

I never get those grapes from chili at a price or good prices on Bananas up here in Maine....Bananas are $1.29 a pound way up here..... :( Maybe if I had a bigger grocery store available I would see some of those cheaper prices but the local grocer is a small store...?

I wasn't shopping for 'real food' 5 years ago. :) I've only been in CNY for 10 months, and these are the cheapest prices I've seen.

[Gunny]

ALL food costs are going up. The price of meat because of what MtnBiker posted, and other food because of the cost of fuel to trucking companies to transport it to the store.

Our country has problems, and I think a lot of it is because of the way bush has been handling the nation. I'll be so glad to see that gas bag out of the White House.

While I'm not going to trumpet Bush's handling of the economy, IMO, the problem has as much to do with people looking at the future and seeing nothing good. Regardless which Dem wins, if they do, we KNOW the tax hike is coming.

If people would quit allowing Obama to hie behind race and his pastor, they might wish to discuss the 3 trillion dlooar tax hike he has in mind.

And you can't blame Bush for banks making unsound lending decisions. That's nonpartisan stupidity.

[JohnDoe]

I wasn't shopping for 'real food' 5 years ago. :) I've only been in CNY for 10 months, and these are the cheapest prices I've seen.


hahahahahahahaha! Well, OKKKKKKK, I'll give ya a pass on the food prices 5 years ago....

BUT NOT on making me feel like an old hag!!!!!!!:slap:

:laugh2:

jd

[5stringJeff]

hahahahahahahaha! Well, OKKKKKKK, I'll give ya a pass on the food prices 5 years ago....

BUT NOT on making me feel like an old hag!!!!!!!:slap:

:laugh2:

jd

Well, I just got married 5.5 years ago. Before that, I was buying good stuff like TV dinners, hot dogs, and Mac & cheese. I picked up grocery shopping as one of my household chores about 2 years ago. It's great - she fills out the list, I go buy it all.

[JohnDoe]

Well, I just got married 5.5 years ago. Before that, I was buying good stuff like TV dinners, hot dogs, and Mac & cheese. I picked up grocery shopping as one of my household chores about 2 years ago. It's great - she fills out the list, I go buy it all.That is sooooooo funny....my husband is the same way...he loves doing the grocery shopping as one of his chores.... I write the list and he stops on the way home from work and picks it up for the most part! He picked up the chore when I was working, more hours than him.....

But since i quit working I have offered to take this chore back over but he has given me a flat out no.... he says he likes it??? Of course special occaisions and holidays I get more involved and shop, or to run for small things, but for the most part, it is what he wants????

I thought he was one of a kind and I was damn lucky....but now there is YOU, also liking it as one of the chores? My "thinking he was special bubble" has sprung a leak and it is your fault! hahahahahaha!

jd