'Islamophobia' a threat to world security, say Muslim states

[stephanie]

The world's Muslim countries warned Wednesday that an "alarming" rise in anti-Islamic insults and attacks in the West has become a threat to international security.

The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) called on Europe and America to take stronger measures against 'Islamophobia' in a report prepared for a summit of the group's 57 members in Dakar on Thursday and Friday.

The report by a special OIC monitoring group said the organisation was struggling to get the West to understand that Islamophobia "has dangerous implications on global peace and security" and to convince western powers to do more.

Islamic leaders have long warned that perceptions linking Muslims to terrorism, especially since the September 11, 2001 Al-Qaeda attacks on the United States, would make Muslims more radical.

The West must understand that "the war against terror cannot be successful without the support of Muslim countries," said the report.

OIC leaders have expressed renewed concern following events such as the publication in Denmark of cartoons lampooning the Prophet Mohammed and a plan by the Dutch far-right MP Geert Wilders to release a film calling the Koran "fascist".

The OIC said Islam had faced constant attacks since it was created "but in recent years the phenomenon has assumed alarming proportions and has become a major cause of concern for the Muslim world."

The monitoring group called on Europe and North America to do more, through laws and social action, to protect Muslims from threats and discrimination and prevent insults against Islam's religious symbols.


read it all..
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080312172422.puvb5uzy&show_article=1

[Nukeman]

So let me get this straight if we "think" or possible look at a Muslim as if he may be up to something than they will be. Sounds kind of backward to me.

I understand that if provoked people will retaliate but when your whole religion is being questioned the best thing you can do is DISPEL those stereotypes NOT reinforce them!!!

If you don't want people thinking your all terrorist than don't become a terrorist just to "show them you mean business". My God what a bunch of crap!!!!!!!

[manu1959]

yes my fear of them killing people is a threat to them.....

[Pale Rider]

The hypocrisy is so thick in that article you can cut it with a knife. I don't believe I've read anything so insane in quite some time.

"Yeah, so people of our religon kill millions of people, that's no reason for all of you to hate us."

Un-fucking-believable.

[Yurt]

Islamic leaders have long warned that perceptions linking Muslims to terrorism, especially since the September 11, 2001 Al-Qaeda attacks on the United States, would make Muslims more radical.


read it all..
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080312172422.puvb5uzy&show_article=1

could you guys please start a circle where you create perceptions of me being rich....this will make me more rich

[hjmick]

Sounds as if someone is attempting to guilt us into letting our guard down...

[Gaffer]

The religion of perpetual outrage threatens again.

Just makes me want to :pee: islam.

The want to scare the islamophobs, but they better worry about us islamobigots.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. Islam wants America to allow them to nuke us, then claim we did it.
2. They want your children thrown into tree chippers.
3. On the most part they are all ready to die for Islam.
4. Some day they just might have too, if *Free People Everywhere* realize it before its too late.
5. If the *Free Peoples Everywhere* ever took a look at their Koran, they would be all angry enough to do it, themselves.
6. Islam is nothing but *Pure Evil*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[actsnoblemartin]

thats like saying unprotected sex is a threat to aids


The world's Muslim countries warned Wednesday that an "alarming" rise in anti-Islamic insults and attacks in the West has become a threat to international security.

The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) called on Europe and America to take stronger measures against 'Islamophobia' in a report prepared for a summit of the group's 57 members in Dakar on Thursday and Friday.

The report by a special OIC monitoring group said the organisation was struggling to get the West to understand that Islamophobia "has dangerous implications on global peace and security" and to convince western powers to do more.

Islamic leaders have long warned that perceptions linking Muslims to terrorism, especially since the September 11, 2001 Al-Qaeda attacks on the United States, would make Muslims more radical.

The West must understand that "the war against terror cannot be successful without the support of Muslim countries," said the report.

OIC leaders have expressed renewed concern following events such as the publication in Denmark of cartoons lampooning the Prophet Mohammed and a plan by the Dutch far-right MP Geert Wilders to release a film calling the Koran "fascist".

The OIC said Islam had faced constant attacks since it was created "but in recent years the phenomenon has assumed alarming proportions and has become a major cause of concern for the Muslim world."

The monitoring group called on Europe and North America to do more, through laws and social action, to protect Muslims from threats and discrimination and prevent insults against Islam's religious symbols.


read it all..
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080312172422.puvb5uzy&show_article=1

[retiredman]

if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.

[stephanie]

if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.

OH GOODY..:poke:

[retiredman]

OH GOODY..:poke:


excuse me...was there some cryptic intellectual content hidden in that response that I somehow missed?

[stephanie]

excuse me...was there some cryptic intellectual content hidden in that response that I somehow missed?

Yep...see if you can find it..:coffee:

[retiredman]

Yep...see if you can find it..:coffee:

I looked for a while...but then figured it was like the rest of your stuff and moved on.:lol:

why not surprise me by actually responding to my post?

[stephanie]

I looked for a while...but then figured it was like the rest of your stuff and moved on.:lol:

why not surprise me by actually responding to my post?

I'm sure you got my point...now you go ahead and move along..:cheers2:

[retiredman]

I'm sure you got my point...now you go ahead and move along..:cheers2:

your "point" was, as expected, high on smilie content and devoid of intellectual content.

I guess I should just give up expecting any more from you.

[stephanie]

your "point" was, as expected, high on smilie content and devoid of intellectual content.

I guess I should just give up expecting any more from you.

whatever...:poke:

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,




if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.




1. I understand your point.
2. And it was very well made.
3. Why should Islam expect anything else from *The West*.
4. Islam isn't winning the hearts of America, or any other Nation.
5. With constant attacks on innocent people.
6. I just wonder like hell, when will *The West* really start getting tough with Islam?
7. As of now, we have fought with the gloves on.
8. When shall we take the gloves off, and what shall make us do it is the main question.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[retiredman]

Sorry bout that,








1. I understand your point.
2. And it was very well made.
3. Why should Islam expect anything else from *The West*.
4. Islam isn't winning the hearts of America, or any other Nation.
5. With constant attacks on innocent people.
6. I just wonder like hell, when will *The West* really start getting tough with Islam?
7. As of now, we have fought with the gloves on.
8. When shall we take the gloves off, and what shall make us do it is the main question.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

as long as we portray Islam to be the enemy, they will continue to become so.

The enemy is not Islam but a fringe element thereof. Until we figure that out, we will always make more enemies than we kill.

[Yurt]

if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.

there does come a time when you do need to seperate true enemies, and if that means drawing a line in the sand, so be it. especially if that enemy has declared war on your way of life for over 1400 years.

http://www.floridatoday.com/blogs/talktome/uploaded_images/line-in-the-sand-735151.jpg


better make sure you are on the right side.

[actsnoblemartin]

To say all muslims is just as dishonest as pretending its just a fringe, it is mainstream islam today, and has been for the last 1400 years, just because not all, do the terrorist acts, doesnt mean, not most are taught to commit jihad, and many support it financially or our sympathetic to it.

you see to make excuses for it, in a sense


as long as we portray Islam to be the enemy, they will continue to become so.

The enemy is not Islam but a fringe element thereof. Until we figure that out, we will always make more enemies than we kill.

[retiredman]

To say all muslims is just as dishonest as pretending its just a fringe, it is mainstream islam today, and has been for the last 1400 years, just because not all, do the terrorist acts, doesnt mean, not most are taught to commit jihad, and many support it financially or our sympathetic to it.

you see to make excuses for it, in a sense

you are wrong. mainstream muslim society does NOT seek to destroy the west. I make no excuses for radical extremist islam. I object when folks who claim to have been to the region - such as yourself - remain willfully ignorant of it and of the people living there,

[Gaffer]

you are wrong. mainstream muslim society does NOT seek to destroy the west. I make no excuses for radical extremist islam. I object when folks who claim to have been to the region - such as yourself - remain willfully ignorant of it and of the people living there,

You are wrong. Main stream muslims follow the laws of islam. Which is to conquer and subdue the infidel. Just because they are not taking up arms does not mean they are not supporting the radicals.

For someone who has been there, you remain willfully ignorant of what is going on. Things have changed since you were there. Muslim propaganda and hate has been ramped up. It's like me saying I know what's going on in Vietnam now because I was there 41 years ago.

You claim to know a lot about islam because you read up on it. You read books by apologists and dhimmis who want to paint islam as something nice and wonderful when its and evil cult that is the complete opposite of everything you believe in. Not all muslims are evil, but the majority have been misled. That group continues to grow, not because of what we do, but because its drilled into them daily. The media there is as effective as the media here.

[retiredman]

You are wrong. Main stream muslims follow the laws of islam. Which is to conquer and subdue the infidel. Just because they are not taking up arms does not mean they are not supporting the radicals.

For someone who has been there, you remain willfully ignorant of what is going on. Things have changed since you were there. Muslim propaganda and hate has been ramped up. It's like me saying I know what's going on in Vietnam now because I was there 41 years ago.

You claim to know a lot about islam because you read up on it. You read books by apologists and dhimmis who want to paint islam as something nice and wonderful when its and evil cult that is the complete opposite of everything you believe in. Not all muslims are evil, but the majority have been misled. That group continues to grow, not because of what we do, but because its drilled into them daily. The media there is as effective as the media here.

and you know this because you were in the middle east...when?

and please tell me how you know what books I read?

Is Sayyid Qutb an apologist and dhimmi?

And again...please tell me the basis for your apparent expertise regarding middle east media and its effectiveness.

I'll wait.

[Gaffer]

and you know this because you were in the middle east...when?

and please tell me how you know what books I read?

Is Sayyid Qutb an apologist and dhimmi?

And again...please tell me the basis for your apparent expertise regarding middle east media and its effectiveness.

I'll wait.

I never said I was in the middle east.

I know what books you have said you read in posts on this board many moons ago. They were all apologist authors at that time.

Haven't read Qutb so can't comment on that author. Have you read Spencer?

Let's see. Shows for children that call for them to join jihad and hate jews and infidels. Shows depicting jews as evil monsters seeking arab victims. Talk shows condemning Israel with speakers and imams talking about the destruction of Israel. News reports condemning Israel and praising hamas and hezbo. Holocaust denial. Not to mention the tons of stuff on the internet.

[Immanuel]

if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.

Question... who drew that line? Them or us?

Seems to me like they drew the line, proclaimed us the enemy and now we are starting to feel like THEY are the enemy. Maybe you are right... they should not be surprised.

Immie

[Hagbard Celine]

The thing that gets me is the unbelievable gall of these people. What do they expect when the only thing that ever comes out of the Middle East is violence?

[Monkeybone]

The thing that gets me is the unbelievable gall of these people. What do they expect when the only thing that ever comes out of the Middle East is violence?

i agree Hag.. i am very much live and let live. but it also is very confusing to hear, " We are a peaceful people. If you call us violent, we're gonna kill you." ummm...ok?

[retiredman]

Question... who drew that line? Them or us?

Seems to me like they drew the line, proclaimed us the enemy and now we are starting to feel like THEY are the enemy. Maybe you are right... they should not be surprised.

Immie


I do not think that the entire Islamic world drew a line in the sand and declared us enemy. I do, however, think that many Americans have drawn such a line.

[manu1959]

I do not think that the entire Islamic world drew a line in the sand and declared us enemy. I do, however, think that many Americans have drawn such a line.

I do not think that the entire western world drew a line in the sand and declared islam the enemy. I do, however, think that many muslims have drawn such a line.

[Immanuel]

I do not think that the entire Islamic world drew a line in the sand and declared us enemy. I do, however, think that many Americans have drawn such a line.

I don't think the entire Islamic World drew the line either, but I think people like this OIC and other Islamic organizations ARE the ones that have drawn a line in the sand, made us out to be the enemy and expect us to die like all good infidels should... with our heads removed.

Immie

[Yurt]

I do not think that the entire western world drew a line in the sand and declared islam the enemy. I do, however, think that many muslims have drawn such a line.

correct. which hemisphere ("ideology") allows more immigrants, muslim or non muslim? which ideology allows more freedoms for the minority ideology?

MFM, who is an implied admitted guilted white person (LOL) can't see the difference.

[Pale Rider]

if you draw a line in the sand and proclaim everyone on the other side of the line to be your enemy, you should not, then, be surprised when people on the other side of the line start to feel as if you are their enemy.

90% of the worlds killings are done by muslims mfm, including against each other. Why bother even defending them?

[actsnoblemartin]

because he's a moron, a kook, and a kool aid drinker

:lol:


90% of the worlds killings are done by muslims mfm, including against each other. Why bother even defending them?

[retiredman]

90% of the worlds killings are done by muslims mfm, including against each other. Why bother even defending them?


that 90% is done by a minuscule percentage of muslims. I do not defend that group in any way. I merely suggest, and you apparently prove my point, that if we decide that all muslims are our enemies and treat them that way, we ought not to be surprised when they all eventually become our enemies.

[retiredman]

because he's a moron, a kook, and a kool aid drinker

:lol:


this, from the mentally retarded porn addict? :lol:

[Yurt]

this, from the mentally retarded porn addict? :lol:

wow, what an asshole thing to say....typical lib

[manu1959]

that 90% is done by a minuscule percentage of muslims. I do not defend that group in any way. I merely suggest, and you apparently prove my point, that if we decide that all muslims are our enemies and treat them that way, we ought not to be surprised when they all eventually become our enemies.

yae like the average muslim wasn't dancing in the streets cheering when the twin towers got hit.....nah that didn't happen.....

[retiredman]

yae like the average muslim wasn't dancing in the streets cheering when the twin towers got hit.....nah that didn't happen.....

it didn't happen. the average muslim was shocked and saddened.
as a matter of fact, in Tehran, in the middle of a soccer match, they held a prolonged, respectful moment of silence.

The dancing in the street stuff was a rarity...

[retiredman]

wow, what an asshole thing to say....typical lib

if martin can't take it, he ought not to dish it out.

[mrg666]

this, from the mentally retarded porn addict? :lol:

ah back to being the board supreme dick head i see :lame2:

[retiredman]

ah back to being the board supreme dick head i see :lame2:


again...if marty can't take it, he ought not to dish it out. why do you all give him a free pass on being an annoying dickhead?

Oh wait...I forgot...everyone give's marty a free pass because he's retarded.

Well... I don't.

[Yurt]

if martin can't take it, he ought not to dish it out.

you're a piece of work. you've lost any respect i had for you. martin said:


because he's a moron, a kook, and a kool aid drinker

then you bash on him for his physical disabilities. you went far and above his needling of you. there are people who are actually retarded and its not fucking funny when people make fun of them. my brother cried himself to sleep frequently in grade school because of assholes like you. you should be ashamed.

[retiredman]

you're a piece of work. you've lost any respect i had for you. martin said:



then you bash on him for his physical disabilities. you went far and above his needling of you. there are people who are actually retarded and its not fucking funny when people make fun of them. my brother cried himself to sleep frequently in grade school because of assholes like you. you should be ashamed.

someone calls me a moron...I call them retarded...

you rush to their defense and attack me.

wh am I not surprised?

and if you EVER had ANY respect for me, you certainly picked bizarre and cryptic ways of showing it.

[actsnoblemartin]

you called me mentally retarded, which means born that way

I called you a moron, which means this
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.

I have never said you were born stupid or are stupid.

you simply choose to act that way, im sorry youre not smart enough to understand the difference.

I have said you were a good poster, i have said you were intelligent in the past.

my last post i actually said good things about you, and you do the same thing you did to rsr, take cheap shots and then look for an excuse to justify it



someone calls me a moron...I call them retarded...

you rush to their defense and attack me.

wh am I not surprised?

and if you EVER had ANY respect for me, you certainly picked bizarre and cryptic ways of showing it.

[retiredman]

fuck off your retarded little twit. when you call someone a moron... expect to be dealt with similarly.

you are a retarded little idiot. you don't know that the fuck you are talking about and you should not be surprised when adults tell you to shut the fuck up or grow the fuck up.

[Yurt]

someone calls me a moron...I call them retarded...

you rush to their defense and attack me.

wh am I not surprised?

and if you EVER had ANY respect for me, you certainly picked bizarre and cryptic ways of showing it.

great, so now you approve of making fun of peoples physical handicaps. not surprising given your posts...

asshole

[retiredman]

great, so now you approve of making fun of peoples physical handicaps. not surprising given your posts...

asshole


PHYSICAL handicaps? I merely state, that when someone on the internet calls me a moron, I am perfectly happy with insulting them in return. I have no knowledge of anyone's PHYSICAL handicaps. Everyone on the internet is just letters typed into text boxes. You could have five arms and a seven foot penis... I would have no way of knowing that.... However, you call ME a moron, and I will be perfectly happy - and justified - in insulting you in return.

[Yurt]

PHYSICAL handicaps? I merely state, that when someone on the internet calls me a moron, I am perfectly happy with insulting them in return. I have no knowledge of anyone's PHYSICAL handicaps. Everyone on the internet is just letters typed into text boxes. You could have five arms and a seven foot penis... I would have no way of knowing that.... However, you call ME a moron, and I will be perfectly happy - and justified - in insulting you in return.

let me educate you then...

most people call someone a retard and just mean it as they're stupid. you however said:

mentally retarded

that clearly goes to someones physical handicap. are you saying you had no idea that martin does in fact have certain mental handicaps that he has mentioned?

[retiredman]

let me educate you then...

most people call someone a retard and just mean it as they're stupid. you however said:

mentally retarded

that clearly goes to someones physical handicap. are you saying you had no idea that martin does in fact have certain mental handicaps that he has mentioned?

is there a difference between mental and physical handicaps?

[Immanuel]

it didn't happen. the average muslim was shocked and saddened.
as a matter of fact, in Tehran, in the middle of a soccer match, they held a prolonged, respectful moment of silence.

The dancing in the street stuff was a rarity...

Funny, though, it was the only thing the press showed us.

Immie

[retiredman]

Funny, though, it was the only thing the press showed us.

Immie

of course it was.... we needed to demonize someone... it worked.

most Americans view most muslims as the enemy now. isn't that great?

[manu1959]

of course it was.... we needed to demonize someone... it worked.

most Americans view most muslims as the enemy now. isn't that great?

why do you give muslims a pass on thier "hatred" for americans but won't give the majoirty of the west a pass and accuss all americans of hating muslims.....

[Yurt]

of course it was.... we needed to demonize someone... it worked.

most Americans view most muslims as the enemy now. isn't that great?

where have you been?

[retiredman]

why do you give muslims a pass on thier "hatred" for americans but won't give the majoirty of the west a pass and accuss all americans of hating muslims.....

most muslims do not hate americans.

most americans view islam as the enemy.

imho

[retiredman]

where have you been?

I preached for Palm Sunday and then cooked my family a big brunch.
are you suggesting that most americans viewed muslims as our enemy BEFORE 9/11?

[manu1959]

most muslims do not hate americans.

most americans view islam as the enemy.

imho

interesting.....a muslim walks down the steets bangor....result?

an american walks down the steets of tehran.....result?

how about going to a christian church in tehran?

a muslim church in bangor....

you have westerners being kidnapped an their fingers and heads cut off....

you have muslims being assimilated into western culture.....

the west and america goes out of thier way to accept and tollerate outside cultures..... even passing laws to protect them ....

[Pale Rider]

most muslims do not hate americans.

Then why do they dance in the streets every time one of their jihadists kills Americans? Why is the majority of muslims silent while an Americans head is being sawed off? Why do they not object when an American soldier is decapitated, set one fire, drug through the streets and hung from a bridge? I think they all hate us and want us all dead. I have no problem hating those kinds of people.

[retiredman]

Then why do they dance in the streets every time one of their jihadists kills Americans? Why is the majority of muslims silent while an Americans head is being sawed off? I think they all hate us and want us all dead.

most muslims do not dance in the street. most muslims are intimidated by islamic extremists.

you are welcome to your opinion, and you prove my point.

[Pale Rider]

most muslims do not dance in the street. most muslims are intimidated by islamic extremists.

you are welcome to your opinion, and you prove my point.

The silence of the majority of muslims to speak out against the islamic extremists is in effect an approval of their actions.

If I prove your point, so be it. They hate me, I hate them.

[retiredman]

interesting.....a muslim walks down the steets bangor....result?

an american walks down the steets of tehran.....result?

how about going to a christian church in tehran?

a muslim church in bangor....

you have westerners being kidnapped an their fingers and heads cut off....

you have muslims being assimilated into western culture.....

the west and america goes out of thier way to accept and tollerate outside cultures..... even passing laws to protect them ....

note the last sentence in post#58

[Pale Rider]

note the last sentence in post#58

I am the exception, not the rule. Bad example to quote. It proves little or nothing.

[retiredman]

I am the exception, not the rule. Bad example to quote. It proves little or nothing.

I think you'd be surprised at how pedestrian and commonplace your views of Islam are here in America.

you are far less unique than you give yourself credit for in this matter.

[Pale Rider]

I think you'd be surprised at how pedestrian and commonplace your views of Islam are here in America.

you are far less unique than you give yourself credit for in this matter.

If true, we have good reason to feel the way we do.

[Yurt]

most muslims do not hate americans.

most americans view islam as the enemy.

imho

great satan

1993

1979

:poke:

[retiredman]

great satan

1993

1979

:poke:

and somehow you think that that equates to MOST muslims?

get a grip.

[Yurt]

note the last sentence in post#58

note the rest of his paragraph and who exactly "those people" are.....they are not all muslims....

[manu1959]

note the last sentence in post#58

yes one person is all of america.......by extension only one muslim would have to hate us and that would mean all of islam does.....

come on dude you can do better than this.....

[Yurt]

and somehow you think that that equates to MOST muslims?

get a grip.

you equate most americans from one poster, you need a grip. i don't recall a single muslim who condemns 1979. are you saying you have never seen the muslims enmasse, chanting death to america? where is your proof most americans hate muslims. when is the last time you saw thousands upon thousands chanting death to a muslim country? what about the riots over the danish cartoons? the MAJORITY of the muslim world spewed hate for the west...are you seriously this blind?

[retiredman]

you equate most americans from one poster, you need a grip. i don't recall a single muslim who condemns 1979. are you saying you have never seen the muslims enmasse, chanting death to america? where is your proof most americans hate muslims. when is the last time you saw thousands upon thousands chanting death to a muslim country? what about the riots over the danish cartoons? the MAJORITY of the muslim world spewed hate for the west...are you seriously this blind?

you are seriously myopic. there are over a billion muslims in the world. a gathering of thousands represents a fraction of a percent. the majority of muslims in this world do NOT hate us, or at least did not until we invaded conquered and occupied a country inhabited by 28 million arabs who had NEVER done anything to America to warrant such treatment.

And the fact that you don't recall something is not my problem. I LIVED in an arab country after 1979 and tons of my neighbors had bad things to say about Iran.

[manu1959]

you equate most americans from one poster, you need a grip. i don't recall a single muslim who condemns 1979. are you saying you have never seen the muslims enmasse, chanting death to america? where is your proof most americans hate muslims. when is the last time you saw thousands upon thousands chanting death to a muslim country? what about the riots over the danish cartoons? the MAJORITY of the muslim world spewed hate for the west...are you seriously this blind?

in a word.............yes

[Yurt]

you are seriously myopic. there are over a billion muslims in the world. a gathering of thousands represents a fraction of a percent. the majority of muslims in this world do NOT hate us, or at least did not until we invaded conquered and occupied a country inhabited by 28 million arabs who had NEVER done anything to America to warrant such treatment.

And the fact that you don't recall something is not my problem. I LIVED in an arab country after 1979 and tons of my neighbors had bad things to say about Iran.

i see, so your "tons" is somehow more representative of the billions than my thousands upon thousands :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

you are seriously myopic. there are over a billion muslims in the world. a gathering of thousands represents a fraction of a percent. the majority of muslims in this world do NOT hate us, or at least did not until we invaded conquered and occupied a country inhabited by 28 million arabs who had NEVER done anything to America to warrant such treatment.

And the fact that you don't recall something is not my problem. I LIVED in an arab country after 1979 and tons of my neighbors had bad things to say about Iran.

You think we just invaded iraq because they were muslim? NEVER done anything?

muslims hate us because we are not muslims and don't live under islamic law. You didn't live in a muslim country, you worked in a muslim country, from your own posts you said that you lived in Israel. Just because people don't show you animosity doesn't mean they don't feel it. Ever smiled and been polite to someone you really don't like?

[FSUK]

You think we just invaded iraq because they were muslim? NEVER done anything?

muslims hate us because we are not muslims and don't live under islamic law. You didn't live in a muslim country, you worked in a muslim country, from your own posts you said that you lived in Israel. Just because people don't show you animosity doesn't mean they don't feel it. Ever smiled and been polite to someone you really don't like?


Iraq did nothing to the US. It posed no threat.

And muslims dont hate the west, because of the stupid reasons you gave- they have a problem with the foreign policy of the west- the fact that it is unjust, oppressive and exhibits hypocrisy.

[manu1959]

Iraq did nothing to the US. It posed no threat.

And muslims dont hate the west, because of the stupid reasons you gave- they have a problem with the foreign policy of the west- the fact that it is unjust, oppressive and exhibits hypocrisy.

couple of things....iraq invaded a ally of the us then broke the terms of thier treaty......remember germany....the did nothing to the us and posed no threat....

the west is in the middle east because muslim nations have asked them to be there to protect their intrests against radical factions that seek to destroy those nations....

[FSUK]

couple of things....iraq invaded a ally of the us then broke the terms of thier treaty......remember germany....the did nothing to the us and posed no threat....

the west is in the middle east because muslim nations have asked them to be there to protect their intrests against radical factions that seek to destroy those nations....

Regarding your 1st point- OIL
Regarding your 2nd point- OIL.THe US is obviously willing to protect the rich gulf states, because the US wouldnt want their well ''OILed'' mates losing power.

[jimnyc]

Regarding your 1st point- OIL
Regarding your 2nd point- OIL.THe US is obviously willing to protect the rich gulf states, because the US wouldnt want their well ''OILed'' mates losing power.

I don't care if it was about toothpaste - they violated the agreements and refused to cooperate for over 12 years. Saddam called our bluff and swung in the wind like he deserved to for it.

[FSUK]

I don't care if it was about toothpaste - they violated the agreements and refused to cooperate for over 12 years. Saddam called our bluff and swung in the wind like he deserved to for it.

Oh right? so could you tell me where the WMD'S were?

[jimnyc]

Oh right? so could you tell me where the WMD'S were?

It doesn't matter. They refused to cooperate, violated 17 UN resolutions and remained in breach until the very end. Can you tell me where the tons of chemical weapons are that were accounted for in 1998 by UN inspectors that disappeared by the time they returned in 2001 and still remain unaccounted for until this day?

[FSUK]

It doesn't matter. They refused to cooperate, violated 17 UN resolutions and remained in breach until the very end. Can you tell me where the tons of chemical weapons are that were accounted for in 1998 by UN inspectors that disappeared by the time they returned in 2001 and still remain unaccounted for until this day?

You seem to be so passionate about their violations of ''17 un resolutions''

Israel is in violation of 68 UN RESOLUTIONS. Are you ok with that?

double standards as usual

[Sitarro]

I preached for Palm Sunday and then cooked my family a big brunch.
are you suggesting that most americans viewed muslims as our enemy BEFORE 9/11?

I'm curious, when you preach, do you use that awful preacher speak that most do? That is one of the hate about that dolt Obamessiah? That fake sounding, silly accent........ I'm Catholic, I've never heard a Priest sound like that, why just Protestants?

[jimnyc]

You seem to be so passionate about their violations of ''17 un resolutions''

Israel is in violation of 68 UN RESOLUTIONS. Are you ok with that?

double standards as usual

Double standards? How do YOU know what I'm ok with? And changing the subject between 2 totally different circumstances doesn't help your argument!

[Gaffer]

Actually we get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico and South America, so middle east oil won't effect us that much. Unlike europe who would really feel the pinch if the oil states fall.

You want to know where the WMD's went? Ask the russians. Where do you think the ability to produce those weapons came from?

[FSUK]

Double standards? How do YOU know what I'm ok with? And changing the subject between 2 totally different circumstances doesn't help your argument!

Well if they had chemical weapons, so what?. They didnt pose a threat to the US or its allies. They were not located, with the high tech CIA around- these weapons were not located.

Look at the mess in iraq, the country is fucked up totally. Iraq posed no threat to the US or UK.

[jimnyc]

Well if they had chemical weapons, so what?. They didnt pose a threat to the US or its allies. They were not located, with the high tech CIA around- these weapons were not located.

Look at the mess in iraq, the country is fucked up totally. Iraq posed no threat to the US or UK.

They need not pose a "direct" threat to us to be in violation of UN resolutions. They need not be a threat to our home lands to fire upon our planes as they did for years. They need not be a direct threat to us in order for us to intervene when they invade countries such as Kuwait.

And you saying "so what" to them having chemical weapons, when they killed thousands upon thousands with them in the past shows your depth in this argument.

[retiredman]

You think we just invaded iraq because they were muslim? NEVER done anything?

muslims hate us because we are not muslims and don't live under islamic law. You didn't live in a muslim country, you worked in a muslim country, from your own posts you said that you lived in Israel. Just because people don't show you animosity doesn't mean they don't feel it. Ever smiled and been polite to someone you really don't like?

I worked for the UN for two years. Both years I worked in Lebanon. For half of the time, I lived in Nahariya, Israel and worked in Southern Lebanon. For the other half of the time, I lived in Beirut and worked out of the UN Liaison Office right outside the PLO refugee camp in southern Beirut. During my tour, I developed friendships with muslim, druze, and christian arabs - and Israelis - that carry through to this day.

[Gaffer]

I worked for the UN for two years. Both years I worked in Lebanon. For half of the time, I lived in Nahariya, Israel and worked in Southern Lebanon. For the other half of the time, I lived in Beirut and worked out of the UN Liaison Office right outside the PLO refugee camp in southern Beirut. During my tour, I developed friendships with muslim, druze, and christian arabs - and Israelis - that carry through to this day.

Thanks for clarifying that. I was under the impression you lived in Nahariya the whole time.

The fact that you had a few muslim friends does not alter my opinions about islam. As a whole it is an evil religion. As I said, just because someone is smiling and friendly doesn't mean they have your best interest at heart.

[Yurt]

You seem to be so passionate about their violations of ''17 un resolutions''

Israel is in violation of 68 UN RESOLUTIONS. Are you ok with that?

double standards as usual

non binding, iraq's were binding

[Yurt]

I worked for the UN for two years. Both years I worked in Lebanon. For half of the time, I lived in Nahariya, Israel and worked in Southern Lebanon. For the other half of the time, I lived in Beirut and worked out of the UN Liaison Office right outside the PLO refugee camp in southern Beirut. During my tour, I developed friendships with muslim, druze, and christian arabs - and Israelis - that carry through to this day.

and these very few people give you your opinion on all islam....

what do you make of the chants of death to america? what do you make of the massive riots after the danish cartoons....you know, where dozens died because hundreds of thousands of muslims were yelling death to the west and america....though america had nothing to do with it.....

[mrg666]

why do you give muslims a pass on thier "hatred" for americans but won't give the majoirty of the west a pass and accuss all americans of hating muslims.....

because he's a ass wipe .
:laugh2:

[retiredman]

and these very few people give you your opinion on all islam....

what do you make of the chants of death to america? what do you make of the massive riots after the danish cartoons....you know, where dozens died because hundreds of thousands of muslims were yelling death to the west and america....though america had nothing to do with it.....

you can claim that what you see on television gives you a better understanding of muslims than someone who lived with them... I chose to dismiss such a claim.

[Kathianne]

you can claim that what you see on television gives you a better understanding of muslims than someone who lived with them... I chose to dismiss such a claim.

Serious question, would you claim that the Muslims you were in direct contact with were 'average' representatives of their countries? By education, incomes, etc.?

[Yurt]

you can claim that what you see on television gives you a better understanding of muslims than someone who lived with them... I chose to dismiss such a claim.

so again, your few is better than the tens of thousands, huh? why is that? how many muslims did you personally meet? 20? 30? you lived in a very, very small part of the so called islamic world, one where there are actually non muslims in charge of the government. have you lived with muslims in saudi arabia? huh? thought not.

[retiredman]

so again, your few is better than the tens of thousands, huh? why is that? how many muslims did you personally meet? 20? 30? you lived in a very, very small part of the so called islamic world, one where there are actually non muslims in charge of the government. have you lived with muslims in saudi arabia? huh? thought not.

my JOB was meeting muslims...every day...for two solid years... in villages throughout southern Lebanon and then every day in Beirut. I have dined in their homes, I have been invited to their weddings... I have had countless cups of coffee discussing politics and world events with muslims all over Lebanon... but...like I said...if you want to claim that your knowledge of muslims is greater than mine, I will dismiss that claim, but I know full well that you are not about to change your mind based upon anything I say.

[Kathianne]

my JOB was meeting muslims...every day...for two solid years... in villages throughout southern Lebanon and then every day in Beirut. I have dined in their homes, I have been invited to their weddings... I have had countless cups of coffee discussing politics and world events with muslims all over Lebanon... but...like I said...if you want to claim that your knowledge of muslims is greater than mine, I will dismiss that claim, but I know full well that you are not about to change your mind based upon anything I say.

So you speak Arabic?

[retiredman]

So you speak Arabic?

it was passable two decades ago (speaking, not reading)... but, in Lebanon, most everyone spoke french as well, and I was fairly fluent in that at the time.

but, as with everything else, if you don't use it, you lose it.

I haven't used it and I have lost it.

[Kathianne]

it was passable two decades ago (speaking, not reading)... but, in Lebanon, most everyone spoke french as well, and I was fairly fluent in that at the time.

but, as with everything else, if you don't use it, you lose it.

I haven't used it and I have lost it.

I am wondering though, the people that invited you into their homes, do you think they were average? Or would they be like the leaders of where you were?

[Yurt]

my JOB was meeting muslims...every day...for two solid years... in villages throughout southern Lebanon and then every day in Beirut. I have dined in their homes, I have been invited to their weddings... I have had countless cups of coffee discussing politics and world events with muslims all over Lebanon... but...like I said...if you want to claim that your knowledge of muslims is greater than mine, I will dismiss that claim, but I know full well that you are not about to change your mind based upon anything I say.

you dismiss anything that does not suit your agenda anyway, so you not telling us anything new. so again, you were in a very small part of the so called islamic world. have you lived with muslims in saudi arabia, iran, indonesia, egypt?

regardless of your alleged personal experience, they were talking to a westerner, you have no clue if they told you the truth. i will take their actions in their home countries that i see through the eyes of a video camera over your biased personal experiences. the camera doesn't lie, those people said and did what i said. your eyes however, naturally have a bias and your perception is completely biased.

[retiredman]

you dismiss anything that does not suit your agenda anyway, so you not telling us anything new. so again, you were in a very small part of the so called islamic world. have you lived with muslims in saudi arabia, iran, indonesia, egypt?

regardless of your alleged personal experience, they were talking to a westerner, you have no clue if they told you the truth. i will take their actions in their home countries that i see through the eyes of a video camera over your biased personal experiences. the camera doesn't lie, those people said and did what i said. your eyes however, naturally have a bias and your perception is completely biased.

fine. we can agree to disagree then. I think that working in a job that required interaction with muslims on their home turf for two years gives me a better perspective on how muslims view the west than your time spent in front of a television. You think differently. end of discussion.

[Yurt]

fine. we can agree to disagree then. I think that working in a job that required interaction with muslims on their home turf for two years gives me a better perspective on how muslims view the west than your time spent in front of a television. You think differently. end of discussion.

like i said:


you dismiss anything that does not suit your agenda anyway, so you not telling us anything new

[retiredman]

I am wondering though, the people that invited you into their homes, do you think they were average? Or would they be like the leaders of where you were?


on official functions, I spent a great deal of time with the local leaders of a host of armed factions - lebanese and palestinian. In my off duty hours, I spent a great deal of time with neighbors and friends. Even during off duty hours, I always tried to continually expand my circle of contacts in the community because of the great intelligence it provided regarding the shifting allegiances and attitudes in the community. When I lived in Beirut - West Beirut - there were over fifty different armed muslim factions/militias. I got to know members of most of them.

[retiredman]

Like I said, Yurt...we'll just agree to disagree. I am sure that you feel that your knowledge gained via television is superior to mine gained while living and working amongst muslims for two years. I am not going to change your mind, nor do I care to.

[mrg666]

on official functions, I spent a great deal of time with the local leaders of a host of armed factions - lebanese and palestinian. In my off duty hours, I spent a great deal of time with neighbors and friends. Even during off duty hours, I always tried to continually expand my circle of contacts in the community because of the great intelligence it provided regarding the shifting allegiances and attitudes in the community. When I lived in Beirut - West Beirut - there were over fifty different armed muslim factions/militias. I got to know members of most of them.

hey
if you had anything to with diplomacy then we would have ww3 before now

[Yurt]

Like I said, Yurt...we'll just agree to disagree. I am sure that you feel that your knowledge gained via television is superior to mine gained while living and working amongst muslims for two years. I am not going to change your mind, nor do I care to.


no worries, you are just biased, have an agenda, and think your microscopic contact with muslims, who as you said, are over a billion, is somehow more important, LOL

[Kathianne]

on official functions, I spent a great deal of time with the local leaders of a host of armed factions - lebanese and palestinian. In my off duty hours, I spent a great deal of time with neighbors and friends. Even during off duty hours, I always tried to continually expand my circle of contacts in the community because of the great intelligence it provided regarding the shifting allegiances and attitudes in the community. When I lived in Beirut - West Beirut - there were over fifty different armed muslim factions/militias. I got to know members of most of them.

In fact though, those that would meet with US/UN military were either those trying to get information, help or maybe just wanting something.

Here's my take on what is problematic for some with 'real' experience. You certainly know more of the culture and some of the details that most of us won't get. In fact, your throwing around the different sects of Islam made me bone up more than I would have a few years ago. That I will give you.

Problem area for you, because you 'know' what you know, when something in the details is off, you dismiss it. Your intake on information seems blinded by your previous knowledge to the point where you won't consider if the dynamics may not have changed. I'm not saying they have, you just seem closed minded on the possibility and dismissive of anything that disagrees from your previous experiences.

[manu1959]

Like I said, Yurt...we'll just agree to disagree. I am sure that you feel that your knowledge gained via television is superior to mine gained while living and working amongst muslims for two years. I am not going to change your mind, nor do I care to.

so you where there in wahtr ...the 70's.....i am sure nothing has changed....:poke:

[Yurt]

so you where there in wahtr ...the 70's.....i am sure nothing has changed....:poke:

actually, i brought up 79

[retiredman]

In fact though, those that would meet with US/UN military were either those trying to get information, help or maybe just wanting something.

Here's my take on what is problematic for some with 'real' experience. You certainly know more of the culture and some of the details that most of us won't get. In fact, your throwing around the different sects of Islam made me bone up more than I would have a few years ago. That I will give you.

Problem area for you, because you 'know' what you know, when something in the details is off, you dismiss it. Your intake on information seems blinded by your previous knowledge to the point where you won't consider if the dynamics may not have changed. I'm not saying they have, you just seem closed minded on the possibility and dismissive of anything that disagrees from your previous experiences.

I do not consider western media coverage of incidents in the middle east to be indicative of the actual mindset of most muslims. If it bleeds it leads... the VAST majority of muslims aren't demonstrating about danish cartoons or attending anti-American rallies...they are selling their wares, or otherwise conducting business and trying to make a living. millions of muslims are just trying to make ends meet and put food on the table and make a better life for their kids.

[Yurt]

I do not consider western media coverage of incidents in the middle east to be indicative of the actual mindset of most muslims. If it bleeds it leads... the VAST majority of muslims aren't demonstrating about danish cartoons or attending anti-American rallies...they are selling their wares, or otherwise conducting business and trying to make a living. millions of muslims are just trying to make ends meet and put food on the table and make a better life for their kids.

how about arab news:


My American friend was right, we do hate them now



The truth is that at present the Muslims hate America and now, they hate not only its policymakers but most of the American people since they have proven recently without a shadow of doubt that they agree with their elite by voting back into office, by a comfortable majority, the Bush administration inspite of it’s obvious record of lies and abuse of power.

all the reasons you rant about, but seems you really don't know muslims at all...

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=64357&d=26&m=5&y=2005

[Kathianne]

I do not consider western media coverage of incidents in the middle east to be indicative of the actual mindset of most muslims. If it bleeds it leads... the VAST majority of muslims aren't demonstrating about danish cartoons or attending anti-American rallies...they are selling their wares, or otherwise conducting business and trying to make a living. millions of muslims are just trying to make ends meet and put food on the table and make a better life for their kids.

and millions of Americans are not slaughtering Muslims here or anywhere. For the most part, Muslims living in America are able to practice their religion freely and earn a living. Are there few that might harm them because of prejudice, certainly likely. Would most Americans think these few not only wrong, but deserving of severe punishment? Certainly.

Do you think the same for most majority Muslim countries? I don't and the polls of those countries tend to back my guess correct. Does that mean we should war with them, certainly not.

Here's where I think we disagree, you would hypothesize that it's because of Israel, Iraq, bases in SA, what have you. I would hypothesize it's radical Islam being practiced, enforced, and sold via their MSM, schools, etc. It wouldn't matter if Israel were blown off the map tomorrow, we'd still be the Great Satan.

Inadvertently we may be saved by the falling dollar. I really don't know. I don't think there is anything else that will change their enemy, other than another superpower emerging. I'm thinking perhaps the EU, since their economy is now bigger than ours.

[FSUK]

When will people understand. There is 2 groups-

1. Moderate muslims

2.Radical Extremists- these are those that burn flags, engage in terrorism,, violently protest at cartoons etc etc.

3. And the only arab/muslim countries that have low tolerance to non muslims openly worshipping etc- is Saudi Arabia and Iran. They have very conservative govts, i am not saying its right of them to be so intolerant.

However, its is wrong and a bit silly to generalise and claim that all muslims are extreme and that all muslims countries are the same. HAve you actually visited an arab country? I would say 99.8% of them are very freindly and hospitable to non muslims.

In fact if you go to saudi- they love people of white colour- they see white people of superior status. You will notice this- at the airport. Howveer, all societies have extreme elements and rogue sections .

[retiredman]

Here's where I think we disagree, you would hypothesize that it's because of Israel, Iraq, bases in SA, what have you. I would hypothesize it's radical Islam being practiced, enforced, and sold via their MSM, schools, etc. It wouldn't matter if Israel were blown off the map tomorrow, we'd still be the Great Satan.

Inadvertently we may be saved by the falling dollar. I really don't know. I don't think there is anything else that will change their enemy, other than another superpower emerging. I'm thinking perhaps the EU, since their economy is now bigger than ours.

IMHO, If there were no Israel and no western superpower engaged in the region, I believe that their "great Satan" would be Mubarek or Erdogan or Assad or any one - or all - of the gulf state monarchies. I don't think they care one bit, for example, about what goes on in areas of the globe removed from the middle east except in how the peoples and governments in those outer regions impact the middle east.

[actsnoblemartin]

youre forgetting or ignoring :poke: that islamo-nazi's want a grand caliphate which is one muslim state across the entire world


IMHO, If there were no Israel and no western superpower engaged in the region, I believe that their "great Satan" would be Mubarek or Erdogan or Assad or any one - or all - of the gulf state monarchies. I don't think they care one bit, for example, about what goes on in areas of the globe removed from the middle east except in how the peoples and governments in those outer regions impact the middle east.

[OCA]

youre forgetting or ignoring :poke: that islamo-nazi's want a grand caliphate which is one muslim state across the entire world

Simply untrue, only espoused by a handful of Muslims.

[Gaffer]

Simply untrue, only espoused by a handful of Muslims.

Your wrong. The only way paradise can come to the world is through the conquest of the entire world by islam. A grand caliphate is exactly what most muslims want. Only non-practicing muslims would be indifferent to the idea. Though the means may differ with the various sects of islam, the main goal of a grand caliphate is the same.

[OCA]

Your wrong. The only way paradise can come to the world is through the conquest of the entire world by islam. A grand caliphate is exactly what most muslims want. Only non-practicing muslims would be indifferent to the idea. Though the means may differ with the various sects of islam, the main goal of a grand caliphate is the same.

No. Only practicing Muslims out of touch with reality espouse this. Do you think a practicing Muslim in Dubai City who has made buku money cares about dominating the entire world through Islam? No.

This is only espoused by radicals and despite western propoganda to the contrary radical make up only a tiny fraction of Muslim society.

[actsnoblemartin]

thats untrue, 100% of islamo-nazi's a.k.a. jihadists, which i believe are 5-15% active terrorists, and another, 5-15% financial supporters, and sympathizers, also want the same.

I think pretending its 1-2% is just as big of a lie, as saying 95-98% of muslims are islamo-nazi's


Simply untrue, only espoused by a handful of Muslims.

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree, but i believe 5-15% of 1.6 billion is still very dangerous, and trying to minimize the threat the pose, not only to us, but their fellow muslims, is doing everyone a dis service


No. Only practicing Muslims out of touch with reality espouse this. Do you think a practicing Muslim in Dubai City who has made buku money cares about dominating the entire world through Islam? No.

This is only espoused by radicals and despite western propoganda to the contrary radical make up only a tiny fraction of Muslim society.

[FSUK]

i love israel!

[OCA]

thats untrue, 100% of islamo-nazi's a.k.a. jihadists, which i believe are 5-15% active terrorists, and another, 5-15% financial supporters, and sympathizers, also want the same.

I think pretending its 1-2% is just as big of a lie, as saying 95-98% of muslims are islamo-nazi's

Support all your numbers Raymond, I don't believe anything that is purely your opinion, or should I say that is the opinion of, take your pick, right wing radio talk show host.

[OCA]

i love israel!

I do too! Especially the apartheid and human rights violations, those kick ass!

[actsnoblemartin]

For the record: my official position on islam

#1 I dont like some of the versus in the koran.

#2 I dont not believe all muslims are islamo-nazi's/supporters or sympathizers.

#3 I believe its a lie to say only 1-2% of muslims are terrorists. I believe 5-15% are actually committing jihad, and another 5-15% are financial supporters, or are sympathetic to islamic terrorists.

#4 I dont believe in nuking mecca, or blowing up the entire muslim world

#5 I do believe in moderate islam, and moderate muslims

[retiredman]

youre forgetting or ignoring :poke: that islamo-nazi's want a grand caliphate which is one muslim state across the entire world

do you have a link that would support that? I think that the writings of Qutb and other islamists talk about a caliphate only in terms of regaining the territory that marked the furthest spread of Islam. I know of no credible Islamic theorist who has ever suggested that the new caliphate would be worldwide.

I'll wait.

[FSUK]

For the record: my official position on islam

#1 I dont like some of the versus in the koran.

#2 I dont not believe all muslims are islamo-nazi's/supporters or sympathizers.

#3 I believe its a lie to say only 1-2% of muslims are terrorists. I believe 5-15% are actually committing jihad, and another 5-15% are financial supporters, or are sympathetic to islamic terrorists.

#4 I dont believe in nuking mecca, or blowing up the entire muslim world

#5 I do believe in moderate islam, and moderate muslims


Good to hear that, listen- none of us like the extremist elements. But, im pleased to see that you recognise that not all muslims are terrrorists.

[FSUK]

I do too! Especially the apartheid and human rights violations, those kick ass!

haha. are you physic?

[Gaffer]

No. Only practicing Muslims out of touch with reality espouse this. Do you think a practicing Muslim in Dubai City who has made buku money cares about dominating the entire world through Islam? No.

This is only espoused by radicals and despite western propoganda to the contrary radical make up only a tiny fraction of Muslim society.

Negative they make up the majority. That tiny percent are those rich mofo's in dubai that you are talking about. The ones that keep the majority poor and ignorant and praying to allah and looking for a chance to die so they can go to a better life. Those rich few use islam to control the poor ignorant believers into helping them expand their power and territory. islam demands conquest and subjugation and the arab leaders use that.

[actsnoblemartin]

its sad you have to intellectually dishonest.

the aparteid was about: we dont like blacks, lets keep them away from us.

Israel's security wall is about: we dont want to get blown up, shot at, or murdered.

Its really sad, if we cant even have an honest conversation.

Its really quite childish and immature of you too call me raymond, am i a saint :poke: no, i take responsibiliy for my actions, how about you do the same for yours


I do too! Especially the apartheid and human rights violations, those kick ass!

[retiredman]

Negative they make up the majority. That tiny percent are those rich mofo's in dubai that you are talking about. The ones that keep the majority poor and ignorant and praying to allah and looking for a chance to die so they can go to a better life. Those rich few use islam to control the poor ignorant believers into helping them expand their power and territory. islam demands conquest and subjugation and the arab leaders use that.


what you know about muslims could fit in a coffee cup and there would still be room for a cup of coffee.

[OCA]

For the record: my official position on islam

#1 I dont like some of the versus in the koran.

#2 I dont not believe all muslims are islamo-nazi's/supporters or sympathizers.

#3 I believe its a lie to say only 1-2% of muslims are terrorists. I believe 5-15% are actually committing jihad, and another 5-15% are financial supporters, or are sympathetic to islamic terrorists.

#4 I dont believe in nuking mecca, or blowing up the entire muslim world

#5 I do believe in moderate islam, and moderate muslims

Quote your favorite verses in the Koran, you have two minutes from the time this is submitted because I don't want no cutting and pasting.

Simply put I don't think you've read word 1 of the Koran, I know I haven't.....Raymond.

[actsnoblemartin]

thank you.

I dont think you hate israel, but we have a difference of opinion on some issues.

do we agree israel has the right to exist?

i think we should start there


Good to hear that, listen- none of us like the extremist elements. But, im pleased to see that you recognise that not all muslims are terrrorists.

[OCA]

Quote your favorite verses in the Koran, you have two minutes from the time this is submitted because I don't want no cutting and pasting.

Simply put I don't think you've read word 1 of the Koran, I know I haven't.....Raymond.

I'm going to give you until 9:04 p.m EST Raymond.

[OCA]

Negative they make up the majority. That tiny percent are those rich mofo's in dubai that you are talking about. The ones that keep the majority poor and ignorant and praying to allah and looking for a chance to die so they can go to a better life. Those rich few use islam to control the poor ignorant believers into helping them expand their power and territory. islam demands conquest and subjugation and the arab leaders use that.


Funny, i've never run across a Muslim that espoused that. Inly the few nutbags you see on T.V. every night, the same T.V. that ignores the moderate or even liberal Muslim.

[actsnoblemartin]

im sorry oca, but your not my boss. I'll freely admit ive never read the koran.

you see the difference between me and you is i admit when im wrong, and i take responsibility for it.

Do i sometimes act like an immature brat who uses his disability as an excuse to be obnoxious yes.

am i gonna try not to be so annoying, yes

i would love to see the day, when you make yourself 1/10 as vulnerable as me, and let people judge youre deep dark faults

oh perfect oca :laugh2:



Quote your favorite verses in the Koran, you have two minutes from the time this is submitted because I don't want no cutting and pasting.

Simply put I don't think you've read word 1 of the Koran, I know I haven't.....Raymond.

[actsnoblemartin]

again, youre trying to be a verbal bully.

Do what i say, martin... now

i dont work like that, if you want a doggie... go to the pound.

if you wanna be respectful, ill respect you


I'm going to give you until 9:04 p.m EST Raymond.

[FSUK]

thank you.

I dont think you hate israel, but we have a difference of opinion on some issues.

do we agree israel has the right to exist?

i think we should start there

YEs, israel has the right to exist in peace and security. However, it doesnt have the right to be an occupier and aggressor. It needs to end the occupation, just as president bush said, and it needs to adhere to the priniciples laid out in the roadmap.

It needs to get rid of its victimhood mindset, and stop spreading hate propoganda regarding its percieved arab enemies.

[actsnoblemartin]

its not 1-2%, i think thats a cop out, that takes about as much thought as all jews are cheap, or no jews are cheap or all blacks are criminals, no blacks are criminals

lets be real about it

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

am often asked to guess as to how many Muslims are jihadists. The easiest answer is: enough to commit the terrorist acts detailed in this 1,000-page-long Islamic Terror Timeline. But if you are looking for a more analytical response, I think the math goes something like this:

There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of Islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty Islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.

[OCA]

its sad you have to intellectually dishonest.

the aparteid was about: we dont like blacks, lets keep them away from us.

Israel's security wall is about: we dont want to get blown up, shot at, or murdered.

Its really sad, if we cant even have an honest conversation.

Its really quite childish and immature of you too call me raymond, am i a saint :poke: no, i take responsibiliy for my actions, how about you do the same for yours


http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/11/03/israeli_arabs/index.html

[OCA]

its not 1-2%, i think thats a cop out, that takes about as much thought as all jews are cheap, or no jews are cheap or all blacks are criminals, no blacks are criminals

lets be real about it

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

am often asked to guess as to how many Muslims are jihadists. The easiest answer is: enough to commit the terrorist acts detailed in this 1,000-page-long Islamic Terror Timeline. But if you are looking for a more analytical response, I think the math goes something like this:

There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of Islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty Islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.


Let me see if I have this straight because maybe i'm a little fucked up, you are intimating that all males between the agers of 15-30 are terrorists?

I'd guess thatv out of those 300 million less than 1% are involved in jihad in any way shape or form.

[actsnoblemartin]

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Terrorism_Timeline.Islam

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22597972-20261,00.html

[OCA]

im sorry oca, but your not my boss. I'll freely admit ive never read the koran.

you see the difference between me and you is i admit when im wrong, and i take responsibility for it.

Do i sometimes act like an immature brat who uses his disability as an excuse to be obnoxious yes.

am i gonna try not to be so annoying, yes

i would love to see the day, when you make yourself 1/10 as vulnerable as me, and let people judge youre deep dark faults

oh perfect oca :laugh2:

I knew you were a fucking liar.

[actsnoblemartin]

Um no, i can post about more then one topic in a thread you know

the article, and common sense tell me that 1-2 percent is not a factual or realistic number.


Let me see if I have this straight because maybe i'm a little fucked up, you are intimating that all males between the agers of 15-30 are terrorists?

I'd guess thatv out of those 300 million less than 1% are involved in jihad in any way shape or form.

[OCA]

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/221.php?nid=&id=&pnt=221&lb=hmpg1

[retiredman]

its not 1-2%, i think thats a cop out, that takes about as much thought as all jews are cheap, or no jews are cheap or all blacks are criminals, no blacks are criminals

lets be real about it

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

am often asked to guess as to how many Muslims are jihadists. The easiest answer is: enough to commit the terrorist acts detailed in this 1,000-page-long Islamic Terror Timeline. But if you are looking for a more analytical response, I think the math goes something like this:

There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of Islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty Islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.


daniel pipes' opinions are just that.

[actsnoblemartin]

see this is my point :laugh2:

I cant be honest with you about anything, because

#1 you use it to attack me

#2 Yes, i have disabilites... I said that so people would understand me, I didnt say I have ocd, im gonna do whatever i want, and nobody get offended.

#3 honestly, why do i bother with you, you're incapable of being honest and fair.

#4 you have never once admitted any of your faults, you just like to twist words, and attack people because that is the only way you can feel good about yourself. I'm not playing youre game anymore, if you feel the need to be-little me and others fine, but im not gonna let you use me, to build you up, at the expense of my own mental health, i.e. im better when i dont engage you/play youre games.

#5 have a good day, youre incapable of honesty, integrity, compassionate, and kindness.


I knew you were a fucking liar.

[OCA]

Um no, i can post about more then one topic in a thread you know

the article, and common sense tell me that 1-2 percent is not a factual or realistic number.


Mr. Pipes findings have been widely disputed among scholars.

What common sense? Explain this common sense you have on this subject, explain how your common sense leads you to your 10-15% findings. This ought to be beautiful! lol

[OCA]

see this is my point :laugh2:

I cant be honest with you about anything, because

#1 you use it to attack me

#2 Yes, i have disabilites... I said that so people would understand me, I didnt say I have ocd, im gonna do whatever i want, and nobody get offended.

#3 honestly, why do i bother with you, you're incapable of being honest and fair.

#4 you have never once admitted any of your faults, you just like to twist words, and attack people because that is the only way you can feel good about yourself. I'm not playing youre game anymore, if you feel the need to be-little me and others fine, but im not gonna let you use me, to build you up, at the expense of my own mental health, i.e. im better when i dont engage you/play youre games.

#5 have a good day, youre incapable of honesty, integrity, compassionate, and kindness.

Should've never jumped in with me in defense of NM long ago.

I have no faults that i'm aware of.

Again you were told, you are not going to use your condition as an excuse for your poor posts, saying you wanted people to understand you is code for cut me some slack and don't hold me to as high a standard as the rest of you.

I don't play that game.

Anyway quit crying when you are getting pounded on subject, you got caught in an outright lie, deal with it.

[Kathianne]

I'm so glad to find this on the WOT thread. :finger3:

[Gaffer]

YEs, israel has the right to exist in peace and security. However, it doesnt have the right to be an occupier and aggressor. It needs to end the occupation, just as president bush said, and it needs to adhere to the priniciples laid out in the roadmap.

It needs to get rid of its victimhood mindset, and stop spreading hate propoganda regarding its percieved arab enemies.

And the pals need to do what?

[OCA]

http://www.slate.com/id/2086844/


https://blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/Week-of-Mon-20050110/011854.html

http://www.meforum.org/article/380

[OCA]

I'm so glad to find this on the WOT thread. :finger3:


Its Raymond, Kath, that derailed this thread with the whining about persecution. You see he claims to want to debate but when you catch him in a GOTCHA! He claims persecution.

Frankly i'm sick of it.

[Kathianne]

I thought this stuff was going to cage and cage alone?

[OCA]

I thought this stuff was going to cage and cage alone?

So did I, I see your problem but i'm trying to help you out here, you really need to take this up with Marty, you see I ask him to back his stuff up, provide his favorite quotes out of the Koran and when he can't he starts in whining about faults and why I can't admit mine etc. etc.

Its all very bizarre even for Marty.

Really i'm trying to stay on topic up here.

[OCA]

its sad you have to intellectually dishonest.

the aparteid was about: we dont like blacks, lets keep them away from us.

Israel's security wall is about: we dont want to get blown up, shot at, or murdered.

Its really sad, if we cant even have an honest conversation.

Its really quite childish and immature of you too call me raymond, am i a saint :poke: no, i take responsibiliy for my actions, how about you do the same for yours

Kath here is where the whining started, it just got worse from there.

[Yurt]

Funny, i've never run across a Muslim that espoused that. Inly the few nutbags you see on T.V. every night, the same T.V. that ignores the moderate or even liberal Muslim.

are you familiar with islamic history....how it came to advent, spread after that? how islam's profit massacred numerous jews, broke treaties, and how he was known as a caravan raider....

[Yurt]

do you have a link that would support that? I think that the writings of Qutb and other islamists talk about a caliphate only in terms of regaining the territory that marked the furthest spread of Islam. I know of no credible Islamic theorist who has ever suggested that the new caliphate would be worldwide.

I'll wait.

research "Mahdi"

al-Mahdi is "the rightly-guided one" who, according to Islamic Hadiths (traditions), will come before the end of time to make the entire world Muslim. Over the last 1400 years numerous claimants to the mantle of the Mahdi have arisen in both Shi`i and Sunni circles. Modern belief in the coming of the Mahdi has manifested most famously in the 1979 al-`Utaybi uprising of Sa`udi Arabia, and most recently in the ongoing Mahdist movements (some violent) in Iraq, as well as in the frequently-expressed public prayers of Iranian President Ahmadinezhad bidding the Mahdi to return and, in the larger Sunni Islamic world, by claims that Usamah bin Ladin might be the Mahdi. This site will track such Mahdi-related movements, aspirations, propaganda and beliefs in both Sunni and Shi`i milieus, as well as other Muslim eschatological yearnings.

http://www.mahdiwatch.org/

[OCA]

are you familiar with islamic history....how it came to advent, spread after that? how islam's profit massacred numerous jews, broke treaties, and how he was known as a caravan raider....

The same could be said, maybe not about God or Jesus but many Christian leaders during the Crusades who claimed to be acting upon the word of God.

Numerous atrocities have been committed by all religions at one time or another.

[Yurt]

The same could be said, maybe not about God or Jesus but many Christian leaders during the Crusades who claimed to be acting upon the word of God.

Numerous atrocities have been committed by all religions at one time or another.

if one looks at the advent of christianity, the very beginning and compares that with the advent of islam, you cannot objectively compare the first, second, or third centuries. the crusades came close to a 1000 years after the advent of christianity.

i took a poll in a muslim forum last year: my poll was, "Islam's goal is to have the world under the control of Islam"

View Poll Results: Islam's goal is to have the _______ world under Islam
Entire 134 81.71%
Majority 2 1.22%
Just the current "islamic part" 9 5.49%
None, for the people to decide 19 11.59%

Voters: 164. You have already voted on this poll

[Gaffer]

The same could be said, maybe not about God or Jesus but many Christian leaders during the Crusades who claimed to be acting upon the word of God.

Numerous atrocities have been committed by all religions at one time or another.

But they haven't been carried on into the 21st century. Don't pull an mfm here and redirect the discussion.

[Dilloduck]

if one looks at the advent of christianity, the very beginning and compares that with the advent of islam, you cannot objectively compare the first, second, or third centuries. the crusades came close to a 1000 years after the advent of christianity.

i took a poll in a muslim forum last year: my poll was, "Islam's goal is to have the world under the control of Islam"

View Poll Results: Islam's goal is to have the _______ world under Islam
Entire 134 81.71%
Majority 2 1.22%
Just the current "islamic part" 9 5.49%
None, for the people to decide 19 11.59%

Voters: 164. You have already voted on this poll

I believe that to be the same goal that Christians have.

[Yurt]

here is a very watered down comparison, if you read the history, the profit went to war almost immediately. he ran at first, but as soon as his following increased, he attacked and never stopped.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~andrew/western/comparative_timeline.htm

[Yurt]

I believe that to be the same goal that Christians have.

i believe revelation tells a different story, there will only be 144,000 left

[Gaffer]

I believe that to be the same goal that Christians have.

Would you clarify that for me. what goal do christians have?

[Yurt]

Would you clarify that for me. what goal do christians have?


actually, thank you, i neglected to ask that

[Dilloduck]

Would you clarify that for me. what goal do christians have?

to bring the message of Christ to 100% of the world.

[retiredman]

here is a very watered down comparison, if you read the history, the profit went to war almost immediately. he ran at first, but as soon as his following increased, he attacked and never stopped.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~andrew/western/comparative_timeline.htm

so he waited for his "profit margin"? :lol:

[Gaffer]

to bring the message of Christ to 100% of the world.

yes they want to do that. They don't want to conquer and rule the world as islam does. Big difference.

[Dilloduck]

yes they want to do that. They don't want to conquer and rule the world as islam does. Big difference.

There's no denying that people that called themselves Christian have at times tried to convert nations and people via conquest and violence. Europe used to be the Christian version of a caliphate. Rome still is.

[Yurt]

so he waited for his "profit margin"? :lol:

yes, if you read the history, he began his attacks in earnest after he raided caravans, amassed some wealth/profit and followers.

hence why i call him a profit......:poke:

[Yurt]

There's no denying that people that called themselves Christian have at times tried to convert nations and people via conquest and violence. Europe used to be the Christian version of a caliphate. Rome still is.

research al-mahdi

[Dilloduck]

research al-mahdi

done it already----it doesn't change any of Christian history

[Yurt]

done it already----it doesn't change any of Christian history

so you saying that christian beliefs include an "al-mahdi?" what did your research tell of you of the al-mahdi?

[Dilloduck]

so you saying that christian beliefs include an "al-mahdi?" what did your research tell of you of the al-mahdi?

They call it the second coming of Christ.

[Gaffer]

There's no denying that people that called themselves Christian have at times tried to convert nations and people via conquest and violence. Europe used to be the Christian version of a caliphate. Rome still is.

What was done hundreds of years ago does not apply to today. Please give me an example of the catholic church waging a war of conquest in the last two hundred years. Christianity is about spreading the word of christ and allowing people to chose. islam is about submission. islam means to submit in arabic.

Rome is a city in Italy. Not a caliphate.

The sunni belief is that the world needs to be conquered in order for heaven to be brought to earth and everything changed to a perfect world. The shites believe the world needs to be almost completely destroyed before the 12th imam returns and brings heaven to earth. Both want to first establish a middle east caliphate and expand from there.

I do get tired of the old christians did it in the middle ages routine I keep hearing. That has absolutely nothing to do with whats going on today. If your great great grandfather was a murder does that mean you should be considered a murder too?

[Yurt]

They call it the second coming of Christ.

so the al-mahdi is christ? actually, the al-mahdi is not christ, he is a military ruler, divinely inspired. did you not see the link i put ealier with a description?

[Dilloduck]

so the al-mahdi is christ? actually, the al-mahdi is not christ, he is a military ruler, divinely inspired. did you not see the link i put ealier with a description?

noooooooooooo cmon yurt---they are symbolically similar--both religions are awaiting a "savior".

[Dilloduck]

What was done hundreds of years ago does not apply to today. Please give me an example of the catholic church waging a war of conquest in the last two hundred years. Christianity is about spreading the word of christ and allowing people to chose. islam is about submission. islam means to submit in arabic.

Rome is a city in Italy. Not a caliphate.

The sunni belief is that the world needs to be conquered in order for heaven to be brought to earth and everything changed to a perfect world. The shites believe the world needs to be almost completely destroyed before the 12th imam returns and brings heaven to earth. Both want to first establish a middle east caliphate and expand from there.

I do get tired of the old christians did it in the middle ages routine I keep hearing. That has absolutely nothing to do with whats going on today. If your great great grandfather was a murder does that mean you should be considered a murder too?

Christianity's goal is to have the _______ world to believe in Christ.


Ask that question to an audience of Christians.

[Yurt]

noooooooooooo cmon yurt---they are symbolically similar--both religions are awaiting a "savior".

dude, isa/jesus is coming back in islam too, the al-mahdi is totally different person. did you really research it?

[Yurt]

Christianity's goal is to have the _______ world to believe in Christ.


Ask that question to an audience of Christians.

very different than the question i posed.....

[manu1959]

very different than the question i posed.....

reality is christianity played all this out during the crusades.....islam is playing out their crusade....

[FSUK]

And the pals need to do what?

The palestinian militants need to stop rocket attacks into israel.

[Gaffer]

The palestinian militants need to stop rocket attacks into israel.

and...

[FSUK]

and...

violence from BOTH sides must stop. Israel seems incapable of sitting down with democratically elected hamas.

And dont use the argument that hamas doesnt recognise Israels right to exist- because- if israel changed its terror policy towards palestinians-then im sure hamas would seem more talkative ( in terms of peace).

[Gaffer]

violence from BOTH sides must stop. Israel seems incapable of sitting down with democratically elected hamas.

And dont use the argument that hamas doesnt recognise Israels right to exist- because- if israel changed its terror policy towards palestinians-then im sure hamas would seem more talkative ( in terms of peace).

Israel has offered the land taken in the 67 war back to the pals. They have agreed to almost all of the pal demands. The only thing they haven't agreed too was to die. That is the only thing the pals want. And those damn Israelis just won't let them go in and slaughter everybody. The audacity of those people.

hamas the democratically elected terror organization. Another example of why the pals can't be trusted. It tells me the majority of pals are not peace loving.

[retiredman]

Israel has offered the land taken in the 67 war back to the pals. They have agreed to almost all of the pal demands. The only thing they haven't agreed too was to die. That is the only thing the pals want. And those damn Israelis just won't let them go in and slaughter everybody. The audacity of those people.

hamas the democratically elected terror organization. Another example of why the pals can't be trusted. It tells me the majority of pals are not peace loving.
East Jerusalem was part of the land taken in the '67 war. Israel has most definitely NOT offered that land back to the palestinians.

[Yurt]

reality is christianity played all this out during the crusades.....islam is playing out their crusade....

so the crusades had absolutely nothing to do with islamic expansion?

[Dilloduck]

so the crusades had absolutely nothing to do with islamic expansion?

Of course it did---Christians and Muslims duked it out. Both have tried to expand their spheres of influence and their theologies.

[actsnoblemartin]

have you read hamas's charter, it was written before hamas was elected.


violence from BOTH sides must stop. Israel seems incapable of sitting down with democratically elected hamas.

And dont use the argument that hamas doesnt recognise Israels right to exist- because- if israel changed its terror policy towards palestinians-then im sure hamas would seem more talkative ( in terms of peace).

[actsnoblemartin]

you wanna leave youre home, and give it back to the natives

israel won a war, so quit your whining

land for peace only emboldens terrorists


East Jerusalem was part of the land taken in the '67 war. Israel has most definitely NOT offered that land back to the palestinians.

[retiredman]

you wanna leave youre home, and give it back to the natives

israel won a war, so quit your whining

land for peace only emboldens terrorists


I am not whining asshole...I am merely correcting an inaccurate statement made by Gaffer.

[manu1959]

East Jerusalem was part of the land taken in the '67 war. Israel has most definitely NOT offered that land back to the palestinians.

does not the victor of a war get to dictate terms.....

[retiredman]

does not the victor of a war get to dictate terms.....
Look...gaffer made an incorrect statement. I corrected him. period.