GOP Aims To Force Immigration Debate

[Pale Rider]

GOP Aims To Force Immigration Debate



The Washington Times : March 11 , 2008 -- by Stephen Dinan

House Republican leaders will introduce a petition drive today to force Democrats to debate immigration this year, using a Democrat-sponsored bill to box them into taking a stand on employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Republican leaders reached the decision yesterday evening to initiate a "discharge petition," a parliamentary move minority parties can use to force issues onto the House floor over objections of the majority. The last successful use was on campaign finance in 2002.

But Republicans' move also puts Sen. John McCain, their party's presumed presidential nominee, in a tough spot. He has consistently opposed enhanced security efforts that weren't also tied to granting citizenship rights to illegal immigrants, and the effort could highlight a deep rift among Republicans.

Republicans are using a bill sponsored by a conservative Democrat, Rep. Heath Shuler of North Carolina, to try to force the issue. The bill would boost the number of U.S. Border Patrol agents and require businesses to check employees' Social Security numbers against a federal database, known as E-Verify. The system is currently voluntary.

Article continues here... (http://www.numbersusa.com/news?ID=9724)

[5stringJeff]

Good. Make McCain sqwirm. His pro-illegal stance is bad for America.

[82Marine89]

But Republicans' move also puts Sen. John McCain, their party's presumed presidential nominee, in a tough spot. He has consistently opposed enhanced security efforts that weren't also tied to granting citizenship rights to illegal immigrants, and the effort could highlight a deep rift among Republicans.

For the reverend, that is called AMNESTY.

I can hear his response now... "Lies, Lies Lies, all of them, Lies."

[JohnDoe]

I hope this is not off topic of this thread and if it is I apologize.

I saw a news special that was on how the USA has advanced in many areas of agriculture with mechanical harvesters...

In this program.... it was saying that many illegal immigrants that were in Florida picking their oranges have fled because of the unfriendly conditions taking place....the movement to kick illegals out of the country and some hate stuff against them too...

This program said that Labor costs for Oranges is 60% of production costs.

I have to admit, I was quite surprised at that number coming from the Manufacturing of hard goods and Retail arena of business because in my old area of business... labor would not have been more that 15% of the cost of goods....

Well, anyway, they were saying that some of the fruit in florida might go rotten because they can not find enough people to pick it this year...

Now this could have been fear mongering, but i am not certain this program really had a political agenda, because the whole thing was on mechanizing the agriculture business from yesteryear to today...?

Anyway, it spoke of the price of oranges probably going up this year because of this....

NOW HERE IS THE KICKER....

This show said that cheap illegal labor has kept the Farming industry from advancing in the creation of mechanical harvesters in certain areas of farming....oranges being one of them....and that these farmers have neglected to invest in research and development for the most part, to advance the use of mechanical harvesters BECAUSE they have FREELY had the use of illegal labor at dirt cheap prices so it was not to their benefit to spend money to invent a safe mechanical harvester for oranges in any kind of quick or expedited manner....

But then the show went in to some company that has created a harvester for oranges and they showed it at work....this big machine that grabs the trees at a certain part of the trunk and shakes the heck out of the tree where all of the oranges fall to the ground and then this other machine comes behind the shaker and sweaps up the oranges....pretty cool stuff....

anyway, none of the /florida Farmers were investing in these kind of machines and now they are caught with their pants down cuz their workers are all disappearing and leaving.... is basically what this show said....

Then it went in to how illegal labor has prevented us from advancing as fast as we could with food production because the businesses had no urgent needs to advance mechanically...

I found it interesting that we really do not know how GREATLY illegal immigration and the use of these illegals in our work force by businesses is not just hurting us in what we can see, but in things we don't see, like advances in technology and the use of this technology to mass harvest food....

And WHO KNOWS what else out there that has not advanced at a greater clip, that is hurting us now in hindsite?

jd

[April15]

Just say no to illegals!

[MtnBiker]

NOW HERE IS THE KICKER....

This show said that cheap illegal labor has kept the Farming industry from advancing in the creation of mechanical harvesters in certain areas of farming....oranges being one of them....and that these farmers have neglected to invest in research and development for the most part, to advance the use of mechanical harvesters BECAUSE they have FREELY had the use of illegal labor at dirt cheap prices so it was not to their benefit to spend money to invent a safe mechanical harvester for oranges in any kind of quick or expedited manner....

But then the show went in to some company that has created a harvester for oranges and they showed it at work....this big machine that grabs the trees at a certain part of the trunk and shakes the heck out of the tree where all of the oranges fall to the ground and then this other machine comes behind the shaker and sweaps up the oranges....pretty cool stuff....

anyway, none of the /florida Farmers were investing in these kind of machines and now they are caught with their pants down cuz their workers are all disappearing and leaving.... is basically what this show said....

Then it went in to how illegal labor has prevented us from advancing as fast as we could with food production because the businesses had no urgent needs to advance mechanically...

I found it interesting that we really do not know how GREATLY illegal immigration and the use of these illegals in our work force by businesses is not just hurting us in what we can see, but in things we don't see, like advances in technology and the use of this technology to mass harvest food....

And WHO KNOWS what else out there that has not advanced at a greater clip, that is hurting us now in hindsite?

jd

Good points, there was a Modern Marvel show on the History Channel that featured harvesting. It was amazing to see at one time wheat was harvested with a sickle and hand thrashed, now it is all done with one huge machine and directed by GPS. I do believe that the supply of cheap labor has created a market condition to make research and development of more sophisticated mechanical harvesters limited. With the growing concern of illegal immigration and the advancement of overall technologies mechanical harvesters will become more utilized and popular and hopefully reduce the need and amount of illegal aliens.

[Yurt]

Just say no to illegals!

si

[Dilloduck]

One would think we would have learned the down sides of trying to profit from cheap labor by now. How much did slave labor ultimately cost America? Oooops--final tally isn't in yet !

[JohnDoe]

Good points, there was a Modern Marvel show on the History Channel that featured harvesting. It was amazing to see at one time wheat was harvested with a sickle and hand thrashed, now it is all done with one huge machine and directed by GPS. I do believe that the supply of cheap labor has created a market condition to make research and development of more sophisticated mechanical harvesters limited. With the growing concern of illegal immigration and the advancement of overall technologies mechanical harvesters will become more utilized and popular and hopefully reduce the need and amount of illegal aliens.

I believe that was the program!!! not 100% certain, but i think it was, and the Florida orange talk was nearing the end of the program...? I think it might have aired a few times!

jd

[JohnDoe]

One would think we would have learned the down sides of trying to profit from cheap labor by now. How much did slave labor ultimately cost America? Oooops--final tally isn't in yet !
I don't think the tally is close to being in yet either.

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

Quote:
But Republicans' move also puts Sen. John McCain, their party's presumed presidential nominee, in a tough spot. He has consistently opposed enhanced security efforts that weren't also tied to granting citizenship rights to illegal immigrants, and the effort could highlight a deep rift among Republicans.
For the reverend, that is called AMNESTY.

I can hear his response now... "Lies, Lies Lies, all of them, Lies."

actually, the bolded portion IS a lie, since it wasn't tied to citizenship, but to work visas.......the citizenship provisions were basically identical to what is required of legal immigrants now.....and yes, it is called amnesty.....and it is the only solution that is ever going to happen, since the alternative is prosecution........and your dreaming if you think we ever intended to prosecute anyone involved in the illegal immigrant situation......

[5stringJeff]

actually, the bolded portion IS a lie, since it wasn't tied to citizenship, but to work visas

This is not correct.

John McCain voted YES on Senate Bill 2611 in 2006 (http://www.ontheissues.org/SenateVote/Party_2006-157.htm), which "establishes a guest worker program with a path to citizenship for illegal aliens who have worked in the US for 5 years."
During the debate, McCain also voted against this amendment (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00135): "Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, an alien having nonimmigrant status... is ineligible for and may not apply for adjustment of status [i.e. citizenship].'' In other words, John McCain specifically voted to table an amendment that would deny illegals the chance to become citizens. So to say that John McCain does not favor a path to citizenship for illegals is 100% wrong. He voted for it less than two years ago.

[Dilloduck]

I believe that was the program!!! not 100% certain, but i think it was, and the Florida orange talk was nearing the end of the program...? I think it might have aired a few times!

jd

I saw it. Florida can't even compete with Brazil and they pay a 20% tax to import orange products. They use "slave" labor too but it's their own citizens. Less hassle. Whether encouraging cheap or illegal behavior is a stop gap or stalling, we lose.

[Monkeybone]

I don't think the tally is close to being in yet either.

jd

i think that is it. it's just that some people won't let it be.

[PostmodernProphet]

John McCain voted YES on Senate Bill 2611 in 2006, which "establishes a guest worker program with a path to citizenship for illegal aliens who have worked in the US for 5 years."

wrong....no citizenship was available until they became LEGAL aliens.....

[5stringJeff]

wrong....no citizenship was available until they became LEGAL aliens.....

So the path is: illegal alien --> legal alien --> citizen. That's still a path to citizenship for illegals.

[PostmodernProphet]

So the path is: illegal alien --> legal alien --> citizen. That's still a path to citizenship for illegals.

that is why I find this debate so bizarre....you reject solutions which create a way for legal immigration.....there would be NO citizenship for any illegal immigrant.....why do you object if a legal immigrant becomes a citizen.....just because they may have done something illegal before?......should we yank YOUR citizenship if we can find you have once broken a law?......how do you feel about revoking citizenship for anyone who ever hired an illegal to clean their kitchen or mow their lawn?

[DragonStryk72]

Some of the problem that we have with dealing with this issue is simple numbers. We can't prosecute all of the illegals, but we don't have 12 million judges to do so with. It would simply grind the entire process to a halt.

Amnesty, however, is not the answer. It would only embolden others, as our soft-handedness already has on this issue.

But then, there's the part of me that thinks we should just take over Mexico and Canada, and be done with it.

[Pale Rider]

that is why I find this debate so bizarre....you reject solutions which create a way for legal immigration.....there would be NO citizenship for any illegal immigrant.....why do you object if a legal immigrant becomes a citizen.....just because they may have done something illegal before?......should we yank YOUR citizenship if we can find you have once broken a law?......how do you feel about revoking citizenship for anyone who ever hired an illegal to clean their kitchen or mow their lawn?

We don't need them here. They're a burden not an asset. Some could stay, but the majority should be deported.

[PostmodernProphet]

We don't need them here. They're a burden not an asset. Some could stay, but the majority should be deported.

Pale.....they are here....they are performing jobs....they are not twiddling their thumbs in a corner....if you take them out of the economy it is going to have an impact......you don't remove 12-20 million working people from the market without an impact.....

[Pale Rider]

Pale.....they are here....they are performing jobs....they are not twiddling their thumbs in a corner....if you take them out of the economy it is going to have an impact......you don't remove 12-20 million working people from the market without an impact.....

They're here, and don't belong here. They cost us more money than they contribute. Take them out of the economy and we'll be on the road to recovery.

[DragonStryk72]

They're here, and don't belong here. They cost us more money than they contribute. Take them out of the economy and we'll be on the road to recovery.

Not really, but then, it would be better if we went to the consumption tax, as opposed to the income tax. This way, they lose their biggest reason for doing this: no taxes. They would be forced to pay in along with everyone else.

Aside from that, we need to revoke the business licenses of the businesses that hire these illegals, they are creating the opportunity.

We do, however, need a legal way for immigrants to get into this country legally. I believe that something along the lines of a more modern Homesteaders Act would probably be the best solution "You do X work, for 5 years on contract, we grant you citizenship".

[Pale Rider]

Not really, but then, it would be better if we went to the consumption tax, as opposed to the income tax. This way, they lose their biggest reason for doing this: no taxes. They would be forced to pay in along with everyone else.
No... really. The states where the illegals number the most, they cost those states millions of dollars in welfare, schools, emergency rooms, law enforcement, etc., etc.. However a fair tax or flat tax would help eleviate some of the burden off legal citizens, and it wouldn't make it so attractive for them to be here illegally.


Aside from that, we need to revoke the business licenses of the businesses that hire these illegals, they are creating the opportunity.
ITA.


We do, however, need a legal way for immigrants to get into this country legally. I believe that something along the lines of a more modern Homesteaders Act would probably be the best solution "You do X work, for 5 years on contract, we grant you citizenship".
We already have a legal way to get into this country, and we should enforce it. This country doesn't NEED any more people in it. We're over crowded as is. There is no need for more people. Our present laws for the number of people that can "legally" come here is fine.

[5stringJeff]

that is why I find this debate so bizarre....you reject solutions which create a way for legal immigration.....there would be NO citizenship for any illegal immigrant.....why do you object if a legal immigrant becomes a citizen.....just because they may have done something illegal before?......should we yank YOUR citizenship if we can find you have once broken a law?......how do you feel about revoking citizenship for anyone who ever hired an illegal to clean their kitchen or mow their lawn?

PmP, you are really confusing the issue.

There are plenty of methods for legal immigration. There are visas for just about every letter of the alphabet. Instead of going through that process, about 12 million people have decided to sneak across the border and just start working here. Not only does that show flagrant contempt for the laws of America (the country they so desperately want to be in), it waves a virtual middle finger in the face of those who are trying to immigrate legally.

I do not oppose citizenship for legal immigrants. I do oppose citizenship for illegal immigrants. I also oppose granting "legal" status to illegals. Illegal aliens should be deported for their actions, not rewarded with legal status and/or citizenship.

[PostmodernProphet]

There are plenty of methods for legal immigration. There are visas for just about every letter of the alphabet.

no, there aren't.....less than 100,000 a year can come in on work visas....compared to 12 million who are here working......even the McCain/Kennedy proposal only proposed increasing that to 500,000........

[Pale Rider]

no, there aren't.....less than 100,000 a year can come in on work visas....compared to 12 million who are here working......

What makes you think they're all working PmP? What about the gang bangers? What about the criminals, the rapists, the murderers? What about those on welfare? Show me where you get the idea every single illegal alien in this country is somehow, magically this perfect little working person...

[PostmodernProphet]

because there isn't enough money in gangbanging, raping and murdering to draw 12 million people here from Mexico to engage in it.....they can gangbang, rape and murder in Mexico with a lot less hassle.....

that being said, I guess my system would enable us to weed those out anyway, since you would have to show you have a job to get a work visa.......let's say 8 million of them have jobs.....then we only have to deport 4 million instead of 12 million......

[Pale Rider]

because there isn't enough money in gangbanging, raping and murdering to draw 12 million people here from Mexico to engage in it.....they can gangbang, rape and murder in Mexico with a lot less hassle.....

that being said, I guess my system would enable us to weed those out anyway, since you would have to show you have a job to get a work visa.......let's say 8 million of them have jobs.....then we only have to deport 4 million instead of 12 million......

So you admit that at least 4 million of the 12 million here are up to no good, and not squeaky clean little worker ants like you said before.

[actsnoblemartin]

because they broke the law, and didnt do it the right way, let those who didnt it the right way get the reward. YOU DONT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOR, Regardless if its a misdemeanor or felony.

So, no, no citizenship for any illegal


that is why I find this debate so bizarre....you reject solutions which create a way for legal immigration.....there would be NO citizenship for any illegal immigrant.....why do you object if a legal immigrant becomes a citizen.....just because they may have done something illegal before?......should we yank YOUR citizenship if we can find you have once broken a law?......how do you feel about revoking citizenship for anyone who ever hired an illegal to clean their kitchen or mow their lawn?

[PostmodernProphet]

So you admit that at least 4 million of the 12 million here are up to no good, and not squeaky clean little worker ants like you said before.

the only thing I will admit is that you aren't bright enough to understand a legitimate argument.....I tossed you a bone, don't think you own a cow......

[PostmodernProphet]

because they broke the law, and didnt do it the right way, let those who didnt it the right way get the reward. YOU DONT REWARD BAD BEHAVIOR, Regardless if its a misdemeanor or felony.

So, no, no citizenship for any illegal

/shrugs....so why is it you ignore the bad behavior of everyone except the alien.....they wouldn't have come here is somebody hadn't given them a job....that's just as illegal as coming here.....they wouldn't be here is the hospitals and schools and government workers hadn't ignored the fact they were illegal.....that's as illegal as coming here......

I say deport them all.....aliens, employers, nurses, teachers, police officers....no rewarding bad behavior....and by the way....I say you jaywalked last Thursday....OUT OF THE COUNTRY with you!.......

[DragonStryk72]

No... really. The states where the illegals number the most, they cost those states millions of dollars in welfare, schools, emergency rooms, law enforcement, etc., etc.. However a fair tax or flat tax would help eleviate some of the burden off legal citizens, and it wouldn't make it so attractive for them to be here illegally.


ITA.


We already have a legal way to get into this country, and we should enforce it. This country doesn't NEED any more people in it. We're over crowded as is. There is no need for more people. Our present laws for the number of people that can "legally" come here is fine.

The only problem with that is that immigration here, from Mexico costs $1000, that's not any of the other associated costs, just what they pay to become citizens. We need to develop a way so that they can work off that debt during their time here, legally.

the Fair Tax, being paid as a retail sales tax, as opposed to income tax, would effect every single person who buys anything, thus negating the tax advantage of being an illegal.

There isn't really much in the way of a cap on how many can immigrate legally, just the rather large payment to the government. People are going to immigrate, because, yeah, we are the best country in the world (I say this having gone to others), so people want to be here, we simply need to set up the means by which they come here.

[DragonStryk72]

/shrugs....so why is it you ignore the bad behavior of everyone except the alien.....they wouldn't have come here is somebody hadn't given them a job....that's just as illegal as coming here.....they wouldn't be here is the hospitals and schools and government workers hadn't ignored the fact they were illegal.....that's as illegal as coming here......

I say deport them all.....aliens, employers, nurses, teachers, police officers....no rewarding bad behavior....and by the way....I say you jaywalked last Thursday....OUT OF THE COUNTRY with you!.......

why is it always jay-walking? It is not the same crime, so stop throwing it around. Jay walking is victimless, and takes a matter of 30 seconds, Illegal immigration is not. It hurts american workers, they take away money from government programs intended for the tax paying citizens, and take up jobs that yes, Americans would do, were we allowed to work without being taxed for it, or could hope for a competitive wage. It also takes months of planning to pull off, as well as commitment to it, so again, not like jay-walking (which shouldn't even be a crime, IMO, and is rarely, if ever, enforced)

Stop using jay-walking, the argument hasn't worked once, not in the entire history of its use. Has anyone heard that argument and been like, "MY GOD!!!! You're right, how could I have been so blind?!! Thank you, kind sir, for steering me on the path to righteousness."? I'll go out on a limb here and say that I doubt it.

[82Marine89]

why is it always jay-walking? It is not the same crime, so stop throwing it around. Jay walking is victimless, and takes a matter of 30 seconds, Illegal immigration is not. It hurts american workers, they take away money from government programs intended for the tax paying citizens, and take up jobs that yes, Americans would do, were we allowed to work without being taxed for it, or could hope for a competitive wage. It also takes months of planning to pull off, as well as commitment to it, so again, not like jay-walking (which shouldn't even be a crime, IMO, and is rarely, if ever, enforced)

Stop using jay-walking, the argument hasn't worked once, not in the entire history of its use. Has anyone heard that argument and been like, "MY GOD!!!! You're right, how could I have been so blind?!! Thank you, kind sir, for steering me on the path to righteousness."? I'll go out on a limb here and say that I doubt it.

:laugh2:

Gotta spread the love before I can rep DragonStryk72 again.

[PostmodernProphet]

Stop using jay-walking

sure thing, I'll stop using jaywalking....and don't you be using "rule of law" when it obviously is "they took us-merican's jobs!"........it's isolationism, not justice that motivates this issue and I get sick of these folks who pretend "it's the rule of law" when they only look at half the illegalities......at least your honest about your motivations.....

[JohnDoe]

why is it always jay-walking? It is not the same crime, so stop throwing it around. Jay walking is victimless, and takes a matter of 30 seconds, Illegal immigration is not. It hurts american workers, they take away money from government programs intended for the tax paying citizens, and take up jobs that yes, Americans would do, were we allowed to work without being taxed for it, or could hope for a competitive wage. It also takes months of planning to pull off, as well as commitment to it, so again, not like jay-walking (which shouldn't even be a crime, IMO, and is rarely, if ever, enforced)

Stop using jay-walking, the argument hasn't worked once, not in the entire history of its use. Has anyone heard that argument and been like, "MY GOD!!!! You're right, how could I have been so blind?!! Thank you, kind sir, for steering me on the path to righteousness."? I'll go out on a limb here and say that I doubt it.

Dragon,
You, and i think many others perhaps too, have missed the point COMPLETELY of why Jay Walking is used.

Jay walking is against the law yet no one ever does any "time" for it, the laws on our books do not make it a mandatory sentence that requires time behind bars like many other civil and misdemeanor and traffic offenses do not require jailtime as a felony would.

The same with illegal immigration, the way the laws are writen on the books, NO ONE ever does any "time" for being an illegal in this country...there is no PUNCH to our immigration laws, and there is no enforcement of them in any manner really....

Just like Jay-Walking.



there is no umph, behind the law.

This is HOW our gvt chose to write the law, because they knew they were going to ignore it and wanted to ignore it, imo.

jd