Who should pay for it?

[JohnDoe]

So, I just heard on the news more of the details involved with the Florida Primaries, some of which I had heard from Immanuel when he made mention to this on another thread.

The Florida Governor is now causing a tizzy fit and is saying that the Florida delegates should count and that he thinks there should be another primary and that the Democratic Party should pay for it.

Well, I have a beef with this now that I found out the details from this news clip...

It turns out that it was the State of Florida's Legislature that chose to run the Democratic Primary earlier than what the two parties in the primary had in their rules.

The Florida legislature is made up of a Republican Majority....and the Democratic party and most all Democratic members of the Legislature BEGGED the republicans NOT to move their primaries up and BEGGED them not to do this because the Democratic citizens would be disenfrancised.

The Republicaqns in the Florida legislature decided to do this to their Democratic citizens REGARDLESS.

IN this case, I personally believe that the state of Florida should pay for the new primaries or they should count the delegates from the record breaking primary vote turnout that they had already.....

jd

[Dilloduck]

So, I just heard on the news more of the details involved with the Florida Primaries, some of which I had heard from Immanuel when he made mention to this on another thread.

The Florida Governor is now causing a tizzy fit and is saying that the Florida delegates should count and that he thinks there should be another primary and that the Democratic Party should pay for it.

Well, I have a beef with this now that I found out the details from this news clip...

It turns out that it was the State of Florida's Legislature that chose to run the Democratic Primary earlier than what the two parties in the primary had in their rules.

The Florida legislature is made up of a Republican Majority....and the Democratic party and most all Democratic members of the Legislature BEGGED the republicans NOT to move their primaries up and BEGGED them not to do this because the Democratic citizens would be disenfrancised.

The Republicaqns in the Florida legislature decided to do this to their Democratic citizens REGARDLESS.

IN this case, I personally believe that the state of Florida should pay for the new primaries or they should count the delegates from the record breaking primary vote turnout that they had already.....

jd

Florida taxpayers get to pay twice for their vote to count ? I like it .

[Mr. P]

Who should determine when a primary should be held, the State or the party?

I say the State they foot the bill. If the party wants to disenfranchise their own voters in that State with 'their' rules...tuff. I've never seen a thing in the Constitution about 'party rules'.

[JohnDoe]

Florida taxpayers get to pay twice for their vote to count ? I like it .
Florida voter's ELECTED OFFICIALS from the opposite party i might emphasize... made the decision to not let their votes count by legislating the move up of their primary....

If the Florida Dems want their votes to not be disenfranchised they can pay for a new primary, which i believe is unfair anyway, or they can count the delegates that came from their original record breaking in turnout, election....

I realize the rules were broken by the florida legislature, but it is unfair to punish the democratic citizens of that state for a decision that REPUBLICANS IN the Florida CONGRESS made....affecting the Democratic votes/delegates.


jd

[Dilloduck]

Florida voter's ELECTED OFFICIALS from the opposite party i might emphasize... made the decision to not let their votes count by legislating the move up of their primary....

If the Florida Dems want their votes to not be disenfranchised they can pay for a new primary, which i believe is unfair anyway, or they can count the delegates that came from their original record breaking in turnout, election....

I realize the rules were broken by the florida legislature, but it is unfair to punish the democratic citizens of that state for a decision that REPUBLICANS IN the Florida CONGRESS made....affecting the Democratic votes/delegates.


jd

because of the RECORD BREAKING TURNOUT, why is the party refusing to count the votes--they made the rules. What's stopping them from changing them ?

[Little-Acorn]

The national DNC decided early on, that no Dem primaries would be held before Feb. 5. Who was it who decided later, to hold Florida's Dem primary earlier than that?

If it was the Florida Democrat Party, then they should pay for a new primary.

If it was a the FL branch of the DNC, then they should pay.

Alternatively, the Democrat group who decided to hold the primary before the deadline, should apologize to the voters of Florida and explain why their votes will not count. See how well that flies. :eek:

No way should the original primary count. The candidates obeyed the rules and didn't campaign for it (except Hillary, but she said her stops in Florida before the primary were "fundraisers", not campaign appearances, uh huh). So Hillary stole a march on the others, who expected the votes not to count. If now the Democrats decide they will count after all, it will flagrantly and unfairly benefit Hillary. Which is probably just fine with her. But grossly unfair to the candidates who obeyed the rules. That's what they get for trusting Democrats.

[PostmodernProphet]

coming from Michigan, I can tell you I would raise holy hell if they tried to take money out of our depleted state budget to pay for a Democratic screw up......

[Dilloduck]

The national DNC decided early on, that no Dem primaries would be held before Feb. 5. Who was it who decided later, to hold Florida's Dem primary earlier than that?

If it was the Florida Democrat Party, then they should pay for a new primary.

If it was a the FL branch of the DNC, then they should pay.

Alternatively, the Democrat group who decided to hold the primary before the deadline, should apologize to the voters of Florida and explain why their votes will not count. See how well that flies. :eek:

No way should the original primary count. The candidates obeyed the rules and didn't campaign for it (except Hillary, but she said her stops in Florida before the primary were "fundraisers", not campaign appearances, uh huh). So Hillary stole a march on the others, who expected the votes not to count. If now the Democrats decide they will count after all, it will flagrantly and unfairly benefit Hillary. Which is probably just fine with her. But grossly unfair to the candidates who obeyed the rules. That's what they get for trusting Democrats.


Florida voter's ELECTED OFFICIALS from the opposite party i might emphasize... made the decision to not let their votes count by legislating the move up of their primary....

jd already posted your answer

[JohnDoe]

because of the RECORD BREAKING TURNOUT, why is the party refusing to count the votes--they made the rules. What's stopping them from changing them ?because the state of florida broke the rules out of arrogance, not all candidate names were on the ticket, because they were not going to count anyway so the story goes....for a reason unbenounced to me, florida did this move regardless.



if there were NOT party RULES guiding the timing of primaries, we could have states running their own primaries a year or 2 before an election just to be the ''first'' state.... trying to outdo the next state and no defined period for them.... i can understand the position the party took, to stop the eroding of the primary period. but once the party saw there was nothing they could do to stop it, i think they should have reevaluated their initial stance....



jd

[JohnDoe]

The national DNC decided early on, that no Dem primaries would be held before Feb. 5. Who was it who decided later, to hold Florida's Dem primary earlier than that?

If it was the Florida Democrat Party, then they should pay for a new primary.

If it was a the FL branch of the DNC, then they should pay.

Alternatively, the Democrat group who decided to hold the primary before the deadline, should apologize to the voters of Florida and explain why their votes will not count. See how well that flies. :eek:

No way should the original primary count. The candidates obeyed the rules and didn't campaign for it (except Hillary, but she said her stops in Florida before the primary were "fundraisers", not campaign appearances, uh huh). So Hillary stole a march on the others, who expected the votes not to count. If now the Democrats decide they will count after all, it will flagrantly and unfairly benefit Hillary. Which is probably just fine with her. But grossly unfair to the candidates who obeyed the rules. That's what they get for trusting Democrats.

as i said, it was the florida republican LEGISLATURE that decided to break the rules and run the primary before february 5th, NOT, I REPEAT NOT the florida democratic party.

that is what it said on the news.

jd

[Dilloduck]

because the state of florida broke the rules out of arrogance, not all candidate names were on the ticket, because they were not going to count anyway so the story goes....for a reason unbenounced to me, florida did this move regardless.



if there were NOT party RULES guiding the timing of primaries, we could have states running their own primaries a year or 2 before an election just to be the ''first'' state.... trying to outdo the next state and no defined period for them.... i can understand the position the party took, to stop the eroding of the primary period. but once the party saw there was nothing they could do to stop it, i think they should have reevaluated their initial stance....



jd


Where does the DNC derive it's power to control when a state holds it primaries ?

[PostmodernProphet]

as i said, it was the florida republican LEGISLATURE that decided to break the rules and run the primary before february 5th, NOT, I REPEAT NOT the florida democratic party.


***cough***


TALLAHASSEE – Hoping to muscle Florida into a preeminent role in picking next year's Democratic and Republican presidential candidates, the state House voted 115-1 today to leapfrog almost all the other states and set a Jan. 29 primary, with an option to go even earlier.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2007/03/house_votes_to_.html

the Republican majority in Florida is not that big.....

[JohnDoe]

Where does the DNC derive it's power to control when a state holds it primaries ?i don't know, where do they get the power to be the ones to seat the delegates of a state at a convention?

[JohnDoe]

***cough***



http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2007/03/house_votes_to_.html

the Republican majority in Florida is not that big.....


i also heard on the news that the republican majority leadership put another measure in the same bill not relating to the primary scheduling that was a MUST vote YES issue, ensuring to get both dems and repubs to vote yes.

i am gonna try to find a link for clarification...

jd

[Dilloduck]

i don't know, where do they get the power to be the ones to seat the delegates of a state at a convention?

good point---is an arrangement made between the parties and the states ? Either way the two parties we have now sure have a lock on things.

[JohnDoe]

good point---is an arrangement made between the parties and the states ? Either way the two parties we have now sure have a lock on things.

i really don't knowwwwwwwww, i am clueless on this stuff and i would bet the average citizen wouldn't know either? yah, a real lock...

gotta google, but things are at a snail's pace on dial up connections...:(

[CockySOB]

The DNC does not have the authority to tell any State anything at all. If the DNC wants to prevent delegates from Florida's Democrat primary form getting any votes in the DNC nominations, that's the DNC's business and no one else's.

The only group that Democrat voters in Florida have to bitch at is the DNC.

[avatar4321]

Democrats in the legislature approved the measure. dont try to pretend this is the Republicans fault. They don't control the DNC rules.

This is simply Clinton trying to screw people over. She wanted to make sure she was the only name on the ballot in Michigan and Florida and new that if she had trouble down the line she could yell and scream about how those states were disenfranchised and the delegates she "won" should be seated. it's just another Clinton scam to screw the people out of their choices.

Neither Florida nor Michigan should pay for the stupidity of the DNC.

[JohnDoe]

i really don't knowwwwwwwww, i am clueless on this stuff and i would bet the average citizen wouldn't know either? yah, a real lock...

gotta google, but things are at a snail's pace on dial up connections...:(


i found this.....

note!
pay attn PMP


Who sets the date for Florida’s Primary?

The state-run Presidential Preference Primary date is set by the Florida Legislature. In the 2007 legislative session, the Republican Speaker of the House made it a priority to move up the Primary to January, in violation of both Democratic and Republican National Committee Rules. The Legislature passed the bill, which also included the new requirement that all Florida elections have a paper trail starting in 2008. Governor Charlie Crist signed the bill into law in May.

THIS is how the repubs GOT the dems to vote yes on the bill....
The Legislature passed the bill, which also included the new requirement that all Florida elections have a paper trail starting in 2008

a dirty trick...imo....

the dems should seat them at this point, i agree.... i guess.... just expect another arrogant state make the next presidential primary in december the year before, then november by another arrogant state wanting to be First! what b.s.!!


jd

[Dilloduck]

i found this.....

note!
pay attn PMP



THIS is how the repubs GOT the dems to vote yes on the bill....

a dirty trick...imo....

the dems should seat them at this point, i agree.... i guess.... just expect another arrogant state make the next presidential primary in december the year before, then november by another arrogant state wanting to be First! what b.s.!!


jd

again----where in the constitution does it say that a party can deny a state from sending delegates to a convention ? What if Republicans and Dems both say they will not accept ANY delegates from a particular state ? Does the state submit delegates to the President of the Senate ?

[JohnDoe]

Democrats in the legislature approved the measure. dont try to pretend this is the Republicans fault. They don't control the DNC rules.

This is simply Clinton trying to screw people over. She wanted to make sure she was the only name on the ballot in Michigan and Florida and new that if she had trouble down the line she could yell and scream about how those states were disenfranchised and the delegates she "won" should be seated. it's just another Clinton scam to screw the people out of their choices.

Neither Florida nor Michigan should pay for the stupidity of the DNC.

Your SUCH a silly partisan hack!!!! :laugh2::laugh2:

Hillary had nothing to do with when the primary would be in florida or the party rules of february 5th being the first primary date...she and obama did agree not to campaign in the state though, i read that somehwere in my searches today.

[JohnDoe]

again----where in the constitution does it say that a party can deny a state from sending delegates to a convention ? What if Republicans and Dems both say they will not accept ANY delegates from a particular state ? Does the state submit delegates to the President of the Senate ?
I don't know, as you mentioned there must be an agreement of such between the states and the parties, to handle primaries in this manner is all i can guess.....they have been run in this manner, with the parties determining a bunch of crud in primaries that seems wrong to me, since the 2 party system began I think?

jd

[JohnDoe]

Democrats in the legislature approved the measure. dont try to pretend this is the Republicans fault. They don't control the DNC rules.

This is simply Clinton trying to screw people over. She wanted to make sure she was the only name on the ballot in Michigan and Florida and new that if she had trouble down the line she could yell and scream about how those states were disenfranchised and the delegates she "won" should be seated. it's just another Clinton scam to screw the people out of their choices.

Neither Florida nor Michigan should pay for the stupidity of the DNC.

a little bit of info from the florida dem party:


So what's all the fuss about?

Florida, like every other state, is required to submit a “Delegate Selection Plan for the 2008 Democratic National Convention” to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) explaining how and when the state will pick and apportion its delegates for the presidential nominating process. Florida has 210 delegates. We submitted our Plan earlier this year, and the DNC found it to be in non-compliance with DNC Rules because our state-run Primary date does not comply with the schedule ordered by the DNC’s rules. Therefore, they have issued a 100% reduction of our delegates to the national convention.

Why didn’t the Florida Democratic Party follow the Rules?

Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violates one part of the Rules because it comes before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set ours for January 29. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention, which will be formed next year, decides who actually attends the Convention.

The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn’t. Why not?

In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who remain far more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, increased healthcare for children, and improving our schools.

The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?

Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.


http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q2

[Kathianne]

Florida voter's ELECTED OFFICIALS from the opposite party i might emphasize... made the decision to not let their votes count by legislating the move up of their primary....

If the Florida Dems want their votes to not be disenfranchised they can pay for a new primary, which i believe is unfair anyway, or they can count the delegates that came from their original record breaking in turnout, election....

I realize the rules were broken by the florida legislature, but it is unfair to punish the democratic citizens of that state for a decision that REPUBLICANS IN the Florida CONGRESS made....affecting the Democratic votes/delegates.


jd

It seems to me that the state 'party' decides when their primaries will be held. In several states, the dems and reps are on different dates, I think your source may be wrong, JD.

[JohnDoe]

It seems to me that the state 'party' decides when their primaries will be held. In several states, the dems and reps are on different dates, I think your source may be wrong, JD.

listen to the 24/7's, not just the link....turn on now kath....they are talking about it, the legislature of florida chose the date earler than the allowed dates by the parties....repubs rules were to cut delegates in half if broken, dems rules were to cut delegates 100% if this...moving up the primary, was done by a state.....


jd

[Mr. P]

Like I said there is nothing in the Constitution that gives any party authority to dictate 'rules' of elections that I know of. It seems to me that's exactly what the DNC AKA the Hillery campaign is trying to do right now, dictate to the State of FL.

Am I the only one seeing this? AM I way of base? IF successful the 'party' would have more authority than a US State. That's very scary folks.

[JohnDoe]

Like I said there is nothing in the Constitution that gives any party authority to dictate 'rules' of elections that I know of. It seems to me that's exactly what the DNC AKA the Hillery campaign is trying to do right now, dictate to the State of FL.

Am I the only one seeing this? AM I way of base? IF successful the 'party' would have more authority than a US State. That's very scary folks.

fyi hillary WANTS them to count...the dnc says it breaks the rules....

[Kathianne]

listen to the 24/7's, not just the link....turn on now kath....they are talking about it, the legislature of florida chose the date earler than the allowed dates by the parties....repubs rules were to cut delegates in half if broken, dems rules were to cut delegates 100% if this...moving up the primary, was done by a state.....


jd

I've tried to go back to the op and not finding a link. When it comes to the primaries it is the state parties that set the dates and pay the penalties, if any. Such that the Rep. took 1/2 delegates to move the date up, dems in MI say, FL none.

[JohnDoe]

Like I said there is nothing in the Constitution that gives any party authority to dictate 'rules' of elections that I know of. It seems to me that's exactly what the DNC AKA the Hillery campaign is trying to do right now, dictate to the State of FL.

Am I the only one seeing this? AM I way of base? IF successful the 'party' would have more authority than a US State. That's very scary folks.

you do realize that the RNC took away 1/2 of the florida rnc delegates from florida as their punishment for the state breaking their rules too? i wasn;t certain if you knew this?

[Mr. P]

fyi hillary WANTS them to count...the dnc says it breaks the rules....

Of course she wants them to count she was on the ballot...bambam wasn't was he?

[Mr. P]

you do realize that the RNC took away 1/2 of the florida rnc delegates from florida as their punishment for the state breaking their rules too? i wasn;t certain if you knew this?

Yes, I knew that..it's just as wrong IMO. Except...the dem candidates didn't ALL follow the party rules.

[actsnoblemartin]

im confused, didnt hillary win, so how do the rules change mid stream ?

[JohnDoe]

I've tried to go back to the op and not finding a link. When it comes to the primaries it is the state parties that set the dates and pay the penalties, if any. Such that the Rep. took 1/2 delegates to move the date up, dems in MI say, FL none.

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q2


So what's all the fuss about?

Florida, like every other state, is required to submit a “Delegate Selection Plan for the 2008 Democratic National Convention” to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) explaining how and when the state will pick and apportion its delegates for the presidential nominating process. Florida has 210 delegates. We submitted our Plan earlier this year, and the DNC found it to be in non-compliance with DNC Rules because our state-run Primary date does not comply with the schedule ordered by the DNC’s rules. Therefore, they have issued a 100% reduction of our delegates to the national convention.

Why didn’t the Florida Democratic Party follow the Rules?

Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violates one part of the Rules because it comes before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set ours for January 29. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention, which will be formed next year, decides who actually attends the Convention.

The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn’t. Why not?

In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who remain far more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, increased healthcare for children, and improving our schools.


There is an orlando sentinel article when i googled it a while back that speaks on the legislature determining the date for their primary. The RNC aqnd the DNC notified the state that they could not have their primary before February 5th, the Florida Republican leader of the house and senate introduced legislation to move their primaries to the january 29th date, ahead of the one rule from both parties, of not having a primary before that specific date.

the RNC and DNC punished as a result, as was mentioned....

I really do not understand why all the states let the parties determine primary intial and cut off dates, I suppose to somewhat unify the country, since every state can do what they want as it would stand....if they did not follow the party guidelines?

jd

[Kathianne]

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q2



There is an orlando sentinel article when i googled it a while back that speaks on the legislature determining the date for their primary. The RNC aqnd the DNC notified the state that they could not have their primary before February 5th, the Florida Republican leader of the house and senate introduced legislation to move their primaries to the january 29th date, ahead of the one rule from both parties, of not having a primary before that specific date.

the RNC and DNC punished as a result, as was mentioned....

I really do not understand why all the states let the parties determine primary intial and cut off dates, I suppose to somewhat unify the country, since every state can do what they want as it would stand....if they did not follow the party guidelines?

jd
From my reading of that, the fault lies with the DNC. Yes, the Fl legislators changed the date, but it was the DNC that imposed the penalties, as was their right. So the DNC should pay for redo, if any. The votes shouldn't count, as per the rules.

[JohnDoe]

Of course she wants them to count she was on the ballot...bambam wasn't was he?
And I am not certain how that happened either....I believe the state party added her name early on in the process but it would be interesting to find out and find out why obama and edwards and the others did not have names on the primary ballot. I do not believe that Hillary would have the ability to make that decision and people suggesting such are wrong on that...BUT....hahahahaha....I have been known to be wrong before so, i suppose I should leave that open for debate. :laugh2:

jd

[JohnDoe]

From my reading of that, the fault lies with the DNC. Yes, the Fl legislators changed the date, but it was the DNC that imposed the penalties, as was their right. So the DNC should pay for redo, if any. The votes shouldn't count, as per the rules.







Some are calling the Florida Primary a “beauty contest” and saying the results “essentially won’t count.” Should Democrats vote that day?

YES. All Democrats should vote on January 29. Even if the vote is not recognized by the DNC, the choice of Florida voters’ for the Democratic presidential nominee will make waves in the media across the country, just a week before the all-important February 5th – a date some are calling “Tsunami Tuesday” because so many states are holding their primaries that day. Additionally, there are important municipal elections as well as a constitutional property tax amendment on the ballot that day as well. Turnout is crucial.

Who sets the date for Florida’s Primary?

The state-run Presidential Preference Primary date is set by the Florida Legislature. In the 2007 legislative session, the Republican Speaker of the House made it a priority to move up the Primary to January, in violation of both Democratic and Republican National Committee Rules. The Legislature passed the bill, which also included the new requirement that all Florida elections have a paper trail starting in 2008. Governor Charlie Crist signed the bill into law in May.


This was on the Florida Dem site that i linked earlier...it was telling party members to go out and vote, and they did BIGTIME...and obama got a good deal of the votes and edwards got a great deal too, like 14% of the vote/delegates....obama got like 67 delegates and hillary something like a 100 delegates from the votes of the floridians already though so why do a new vote? the legislature chose the date, the people came out and voted their wishes, more so than any other primary in their history?

Why have another election, why not just let it count? I realize the candidates did not get to campaign in that state like they would have wanted to but the citizens managed to make up their minds pretty much by other means of news on them i think.

If we let them go back and vote then Florida gets to count more than should, ONCE AGAIN.... those that didn't go out and vote get to go out and vote the 2nd time around unless there is a way to limit the new vote to the people that voted the first time.... now the momentum has changed completely from when the florida legislature chose to run their primary for candidates....

I bet millions would love to be voting now for president and get a "DO OVER" like florida..... in a way i think it is unfair to other states....hell let all the states have as many primaries that they want! :dance:

to me this all seems so chaotic and par for the course of my party i suppose....but they do not get all the blame in this fiasco, the florida legislature does too imo.

jd

[avatar4321]

Your SUCH a silly partisan hack!!!! :laugh2::laugh2:

Hillary had nothing to do with when the primary would be in florida or the party rules of february 5th being the first primary date...she and obama did agree not to campaign in the state though, i read that somehwere in my searches today.

She has everything to do with the DNC rules, She and her husband CONTROL the DNC.

[Mr. P]

And I am not certain how that happened either....I believe the state party added her name early on in the process but it would be interesting to find out and find out why obama and edwards and the others did not have names on the primary ballot. I do not believe that Hillary would have the ability to make that decision and people suggesting such are wrong on that...BUT....hahahahaha....I have been known to be wrong before so, i suppose I should leave that open for debate. :laugh2:

jd

I believe (could be wrong) it's the candidates that must go through the process to put their name on the ballot. All agreed not to but Hillary did anyway....see a plan here? It would be a damn devious one wouldn't it? Not one I'd put past her though.

[retiredman]

She has everything to do with the DNC rules, She and her husband CONTROL the DNC.

the Clintons do not control Howard Dean.... take off the tinfoil hat

[JohnDoe]

I believe (could be wrong) it's the candidates that must go through the process to put their name on the ballot. All agreed not to but Hillary did anyway....see a plan here? It would be a damn devious one wouldn't it? Not one I'd put past her though.

i just found it on the link i provided above:


Can a presidential candidate remove their name from the ballot in Florida?

Florida Democratic Party Chairwoman Thurman, Senator Geller and Representative Gelber submitted to Florida’s Secretary of State the names of our Party’s presidential candidates for placement on the January 29, 2008 Democratic Presidential Preference Primary ballot. State law allows candidates who wish to withdraw from the Florida primary to do so by filing an affidavit stating that he or she is not a candidate for President of the United States of America. In other words: to get off the ballot in Florida, a candidate has to swear that he or she isn’t running for President.

[JohnDoe]

interesting huh? wonder if obama and edwards swore they were not running to get names off?

or, wonder what names were included by these state people and how they determined who?

[pegwinn]

:cheers2::cheers2::cheers2::cheers2::lol::lol::lol ::pee::pee:

This is sooooo funny. It's better than watching wrasslin on PPV.

The nomination conventions are seperate from any .gov be it fed or state. So, while the state legislature can call for elections whenever, the party can disallow it.

If the florida dems didn't like it. They could have fought it. But instead they chose to roll over and take it hard.

Toughski Shitski

And whoever said politics was fair?

[Dilloduck]

Like I said there is nothing in the Constitution that gives any party authority to dictate 'rules' of elections that I know of. It seems to me that's exactly what the DNC AKA the Hillery campaign is trying to do right now, dictate to the State of FL.

Am I the only one seeing this? AM I way of base? IF successful the 'party' would have more authority than a US State. That's very scary folks.

I'm with ya Mr. P. There is no way that a political party can constitutionally tell a state how and when to select a presidential nominee. Both major parties are operating as though they have some kind of jurisdiction over the state. It IS very scary when no one is picking up on the election monopoly the major parties have over voters. You join the reps or the dems and play by THEIR rules or you can't play at all.

[JohnDoe]

:cheers2::cheers2::cheers2::cheers2::lol::lol::lol ::pee::pee:

This is sooooo funny. It's better than watching wrasslin on PPV.

The nomination conventions are seperate from any .gov be it fed or state. So, while the state legislature can call for elections whenever, the party can disallow it.

If the florida dems didn't like it. They could have fought it. But instead they chose to roll over and take it hard.

Toughski Shitski

And whoever said politics was fair? Pegwinn, that's simply not true, that they rolled over...at least not from what I have been reading about it today...they only "half" rolled over...:laugh2: on the first part, the excuse that the florida dems in political office were too busy on more important things....


The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn’t. Why not?

In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who remain far more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, increased healthcare for children, and improving our schools.


The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?

Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

[JohnDoe]

I'm with ya Mr. P. There is no way that a political party can constitutionally tell a state how and when to select a presidential nominee. Both major parties are operating as though they have some kind of jurisdiction over the state. It IS very scary when no one is picking up on the election monopoly the major parties have over voters. You join the reps or the dems and play by THEIR rules or you can't play at all.I don't see how they can either, but somehow, the two parties have managed to dictate the period in which states can choose their own primary date and the states have pretty much accepted such....at least that is how it appears to be the case, until this year....but not certain on that....

jd

[Dilloduck]

Amendment XII (1804)

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;—The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;—The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President—The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

He's how the COTUS says presidential elections are to be held.


After the disputed election of 1800, this amendment required separate designation of presidential and vice presidential candidates, each of whom must meet the same qualifications for eligibility as the president.

There is NOTHING giving any party the right to tell the state how or when states are to choose delegates. It DOES however require them to meet, vote, certify and submit the votes.

[Dilloduck]

I don't see how they can either, but somehow, the two parties have managed to dictate the period in which states can choose their own primary date and the states have pretty much accepted such....at least that is how it appears to be the case, until this year....but not certain on that....

jd

States have caved in. Two political machines own them.

[JohnDoe]

States have caved in. Two political machines own them.I have spent the last half hour trying to find something on Florida primary election law or rules, to see if they have something in there, but so far no luck! :(

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

i found this.....

note!
pay attn PMP

****cough, cough, and cough again****


The Florida effort to move the date was sponsored by a Democrat, state Sen. Jeremy Ring, also of Broward, who remains unapologetic about his role. "I think we have successfully blown up this antiquated primary process," he said in a phone interview last week. "I have absolutely no regrets."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/10/30/florida/

from Salon.com, so don't tell me THAT's conservative bias......

[Dilloduck]

I have spent the last half hour trying to find something on Florida primary election law or rules, to see if they have something in there, but so far no luck! :(

jd

It doesn't matter--Americans are under the illusion that they have only 2 choices when selecting a president and the 2 parties are bold enough to punish the people of a state if they don't obey party rules. Florida can select their electors anyway they please. A political party simply cannot tell them what they can or cannot do.

[Kathianne]

It doesn't matter--Americans are under the illusion that they have only 2 choices when selecting a president and the 2 parties are bold enough to punish the people of a state if they don't obey party rules. Florida can select their electors anyway they please. A political party simply cannot tell them what they can or cannot do.

Vote how you wish, so will all.

[JohnDoe]

****cough, cough, and cough again****



http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/10/30/florida/

from Salon.com, so don't tell me THAT's conservative bias......


it's an editorial....and has no links to any source....

i'll pass... :coffee:

jd

[Dilloduck]

Vote how you wish, so will all.

However if they vote they all will vote according to what they are told and what they believe to be true. The two party system is one system.

[JohnDoe]

It doesn't matter--Americans are under the illusion that they have only 2 choices when selecting a president and the 2 parties are bold enough to punish the people of a state if they don't obey party rules. Florida can select their electors anyway they please. A political party simply cannot tell them what they can or cannot do.
sure, whatever....but for some reason they are allowing them to not seat candidates off of the election they had... go figure?

There must be something in writing that can be found that is making the states cow down that have cowed down?

Not that I differ with your "thoughts and reasoning" on this....just trying to find out what the rules actually say in Florida Law, regarding this....?

jd

[Mr. P]

interesting huh? wonder if obama and edwards swore they were not running to get names off?

or, wonder what names were included by these state people and how they determined who?

Were they on to start with or did they follow the party rule and NOT add their name to the ballot? Interesting, HUH?

[Dilloduck]

sure, whatever....but for some reason they are allowing them to not seat candidates off of the election they had... go figure?

There must be something in writing that can be found that is making the states cow down that have cowed down?

Not that I differ with your "thoughts and reasoning" on this....just trying to find out what the rules actually say in Florida Law, regarding this....?

jd

Good luck with your research. I still say that the parties have convinced America that they are the only show in town. Odd that both parties "punished" Floridians for not playing fair don't ya think ?

[Gaffer]

Look to howard dean. He couldn't be president so he grabbed the dnc chair. I think you will find all screw ups and control seeking leads back to his desk. And he'll be at that desk pointing at everybody else to blame.

[JohnDoe]

Were they on to start with or did they follow the party rule and NOT add their name to the ballot? Interesting, HUH?

they can NOT add their own names to the ballot, i gave you that tidbit in a previous post.... they DO NOT determine who goes on the ballot by state, it said the treasurer of the democratic party with their leaders of the house and senate determine the names to go on the florida ballot? by what means, i dn't know.

so, the mystery lies with them....who did they put on the ballot or not put on the ballot....then i need to find out if any candidate withdrew their names, which to me is just plain unlikely....


i'm on to them!!!! :laugh2::laugh2: i will find the answers, so help me God!!!!

jd

[Dilloduck]

they can NOT add their own names to the ballot, i gave you that tidbit in a previous post.... they DO NOT determine who goes on the ballot by state, it said the treasurer of the democratic party with their leaders of the house and senate determine the names to go on the florida ballot? by what means, i dn't know.

so, the mystery lies with them....who did they put on the ballot or not put on the ballot....then i need to find out if any candidate withdrew their names, which to me is just plain unlikely....


i'm on to them!!!! :laugh2::laugh2: i will find the answers, so help me God!!!!

jd

Where does it say that a candidates name can be submitted without his/her consent ?

[JohnDoe]

Where does it say that a candidates name can be submitted without his/her consent ?again, i don't know how the names are determined by the state party, i would imagine each state has requirements and each party has regs and rules too....

it's amazing the maze that exists that i never knew was there until trying to find out the nitty gritty of what really is going on!!!

it takes me 4ever on dial up to search...so this is tasking, to say the least, but i really need to know what is going on...

i got mom, dad, and sis all living there...all disenfranchised, and they don't know crap about what the heck is going on either!!!!!!


jd

[Kathianne]

again, i don't know how the names are determined by the state party, i would imagine each state has requirements and each party has regs and rules too....

it's amazing the maze that exists that i never knew was there until trying to find out the nitty gritty of what really is going on!!!

it takes me 4ever on dial up to search...so this is tasking, to say the least, but i really need to know what is going on...

i got mom, dad, and sis all living there...all disenfranchised, and they don't know crap about what the heck is going on either!!!!!!


jd
JD, I'm going by the seat of my pants. Seems to me that the state wanted to up the date of primaries. The GOP said, 'fine, get 1/2 delegates.' The DNC said, 'fine, get no delegates.' Everyone signed off on. Hillary 'visited' several times, won landslide. Barack didn't.

So, if now to count delegates?

[Dilloduck]

again, i don't know how the names are determined by the state party, i would imagine each state has requirements and each party has regs and rules too....

it's amazing the maze that exists that i never knew was there until trying to find out the nitty gritty of what really is going on!!!

it takes me 4ever on dial up to search...so this is tasking, to say the least, but i really need to know what is going on...

i got mom, dad, and sis all living there...all disenfranchised, and they don't know crap about what the heck is going on either!!!!!!


jd

It's simple-----Florida didn't do what they were told to do by the 2 political parties so they can't play with them. Do you think that the Florida legislature should have just kissed ass ?

[JohnDoe]

Where does it say that a candidates name can be submitted without his/her consent ?


timeline so far...

in march o7 DNC chose primary window dates for the states....and has not finalized punishments if not followed but said they were coming....

in june o7 the florida legislature moves their primary up to an earlier date than the window DNC chose and was warned that the date would cause the loss of delegates being seated at the democratic convention (THAT right there seems unconstitutional)

in october o7 the dems say all delegates will not be seated and repubs say 1/2 will not...

don't know why the dnc waited so long to make this decision? and as easily as they made it they can change it, and should...

[JohnDoe]

JD, I'm going by the seat of my pants. Seems to me that the state wanted to up the date of primaries. The GOP said, 'fine, get 1/2 delegates.' The DNC said, 'fine, get no delegates.' Everyone signed off on. Hillary 'visited' several times, won landslide. Barack didn't.

So, if now to count delegates?the candidates had no part in the decision a DNC committee responsible made....

don't know about hillary campaigning there but read on a thread here that obama ran several ads in florida....i think it was by thehawk...?

so if she campaigned or ''visited'' and he ran ads....they are on equal footing, no? he got alot of votes, so did edwards ....even with no names on the ballot....the democratic voters were told to vote and write in....they came out by the boatloads?

[82Marine89]

as i said, it was the florida republican LEGISLATURE that decided to break the rules and run the primary before february 5th, NOT, I REPEAT NOT the florida democratic party.

that is what it said on the news.

jd

Republican Gov. Charlie Crist, who has consistently voiced his support for giving the fourth-largest U.S. state more say, is expected to sign the bill. The House voted 118-0 on Thursday to pass the measure. The Senate last week voted for the plan, which also would replace touch-screen electronic voting machines in 15 counties with a system that also registers votes on paper. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269898,00.html)

[avatar4321]

the candidates had no part in the decision a DNC committee responsible made....

don't know about hillary campaigning there but read on a thread here that obama ran several ads in florida....i think it was by thehawk...?

so if she campaigned or ''visited'' and he ran ads....they are on equal footing, no? he got alot of votes, so did edwards ....even with no names on the ballot....the democratic voters were told to vote and write in....they came out by the boatloads?

Come on JD. The Clinton's control the DNC. Do you honestly expect us to believe that had absolutely no say in the matter?

[JohnDoe]

Republican Gov. Charlie Crist, who has consistently voiced his support for giving the fourth-largest U.S. state more say, is expected to sign the bill. The House voted 118-0 on Thursday to pass the measure. The Senate last week voted for the plan, which also would replace touch-screen electronic voting machines in 15 counties with a system that also registers votes on paper. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269898,00.html)
i went through this already, but 4 you....:D ....i will repeat what was said about that....and please don't shoot the messenger....:laugh2:


Some are calling the Florida Primary a “beauty contest” and saying the results “essentially won’t count.” Should Democrats vote that day?

YES. All Democrats should vote on January 29. Even if the vote is not recognized by the DNC, the choice of Florida voters’ for the Democratic presidential nominee will make waves in the media across the country, just a week before the all-important February 5th – a date some are calling “Tsunami Tuesday” because so many states are holding their primaries that day. Additionally, there are important municipal elections as well as a constitutional property tax amendment on the ballot that day as well. Turnout is crucial.

Who sets the date for Florida’s Primary?

The state-run Presidential Preference Primary date is set by the Florida Legislature. In the 2007 legislative session, the Republican Speaker of the House made it a priority to move up the Primary to January, in violation of both Democratic and Republican National Committee Rules. The Legislature passed the bill, which also included the new requirement that all Florida elections have a paper trail starting in 2008. Governor Charlie Crist signed the bill into law in May.

So what's all the fuss about?

Florida, like every other state, is required to submit a “Delegate Selection Plan for the 2008 Democratic National Convention” to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) explaining how and when the state will pick and apportion its delegates for the presidential nominating process. Florida has 210 delegates. We submitted our Plan earlier this year, and the DNC found it to be in non-compliance with DNC Rules because our state-run Primary date does not comply with the schedule ordered by the DNC’s rules. Therefore, they have issued a 100% reduction of our delegates to the national convention.

Why didn’t the Florida Democratic Party follow the Rules?

Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violates one part of the Rules because it comes before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set ours for January 29. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention, which will be formed next year, decides who actually attends the Convention.

The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn’t. Why not?
In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who remain far more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, increased healthcare for children, and improving our schools.

******* NOTE THIS!
The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?

Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

Why can’t you just change the primary date?

Unfortunately, Florida Democrats are outnumbered almost 2 to 1 in the Legislature. They are an extremely hard-working and committed group, but to change a law that the Speaker of the House has made a priority is nearly impossible.

MORE HERE: http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q2

[JohnDoe]

Come on JD. The Clinton's control the DNC. Do you honestly expect us to believe that had absolutely no say in the matter?
I don't think so...

obama wouldn't be giving clinton a run for her money if she did....nor would the fla delegates have been removed, as they were...

jd

[pegwinn]

My read on it is that there are two tracks here.

The first is the parties. They are entitled to make thier own rules at the local, state, and national level. The fact is that the parties are private entitities. A club if you will. It is perfectly acceptable for the national chair to tell the state chair about the consequences of knowingly violating the rules. The convention is nothing more than a meeting of the club members to pick thier guy. How they do it is not subject to law or the constitution since it is a private club.

Then you have the states and fed .govs. Each state has laws on how to conduct elections. They can conduct any election at any time they want and the parties are not party to the decision except as to the affiliation of the legislator who makes the proposition.

The system has evolved over time and fools a lot of people. The first thing the voters forgot is that the states can simply decide in the legislature without voter input who the electors will decide for.

All they would have to do is rewrite the law within the state.

[avatar4321]

I don't think so...

obama wouldn't be giving clinton a run for her money if she did....nor would the fla delegates have been removed, as they were...

jd

Yeah they would have. She runs the DNC. not the voters. and its the voters supporting Obama.

And yes the delegates would have been removed because by penalizing Florida and Michigan the way she did, she kept the other candidates from competing in those states. She did that specifically so that she would win the states and then if there were problems down the line yell "disenfranchisement" to steal the election from Obama who played by the rules.

It was freaking obvious what she was doing the second they announced these rules. I can't figure out why people are just now figuring it out.

[PostmodernProphet]

it's an editorial....and has no links to any source....

i'll pass... :coffee:

jd

I can't believe the work you make me go through just to shine a ray of reality into your liberally-dimmed existence......
http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=0537&Year=2007&Chamber=House#Vote

co-sponsers in the House included the following Democrats
Porth; Kravitz; Kiar; Roberson; Brandenburg; Sands; Waldman; and Bucher
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Representatives/representatives.aspx
two co-sponsers in the Senate including Ring, a Democrat...
http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/index.cfm?Members=View+Page&District_Num_Link=032&Submenu=1&Tab=legislators&chamber=Senate&CFID=70682729&CFTOKEN=86407954

none of which OUGHT to have been necessary since the Salon piece obviously wasn't an editorial....editorials don't quote people they interviewed.......

so, what are you going to believe....the official Florida documents showing they not only helped sponsor it, but voted for it unanimously..(the combined house/senate version passed 118-0)..or the after the fact disclaimer of the Florida democraps saying it was shoved down their throats?.......

[Dilloduck]

the candidates had no part in the decision a DNC committee responsible made....

don't know about hillary campaigning there but read on a thread here that obama ran several ads in florida....i think it was by thehawk...?

so if she campaigned or ''visited'' and he ran ads....they are on equal footing, no? he got alot of votes, so did edwards ....even with no names on the ballot....the democratic voters were told to vote and write in....they came out by the boatloads?

They are only on equal footing if the Dems continue to play by the rules they set out for their candidates. If the rules would have been different the campaigning would have also been different. The Florida legislature simply told the parties to go screw themselves.
Again--Republican and Democrat parties control the primaries. The system is rigged.

[Immanuel]

I am an independent.

I do not want my tax dollars being wasted on a rerunning of the Democratic Parties Primary election!

I think that if they try this manuever, I will file a class action lawsuit against the state and both parties.

Hey Avatar... willing to take on such a case on a contingency basis of course?

Immie

[JohnDoe]

I am an independent.

I do not want my tax dollars being wasted on a rerunning of the Democratic Parties Primary election!

I think that if they try this manuever, I will file a class action lawsuit against the state and both parties.

Hey Avatar... willing to take on such a case on a contingency basis of course?

Immie
I heard they came up with some sort of solution where it won't cost ya? What have you heard?

jd

[Immanuel]

I heard they came up with some sort of solution where it won't cost ya? What have you heard?

jd

Hadn't heard anything yet, but when a politician or a salesman tell me it won't cost me anything... that's when I know it is going to be expensive.

Immie

[Yurt]

The national DNC decided early on, that no Dem primaries would be held before Feb. 5. Who was it who decided later, to hold Florida's Dem primary earlier than that?

If it was the Florida Democrat Party, then they should pay for a new primary.

If it was a the FL branch of the DNC, then they should pay.

Alternatively, the Democrat group who decided to hold the primary before the deadline, should apologize to the voters of Florida and explain why their votes will not count. See how well that flies. :eek:

No way should the original primary count. The candidates obeyed the rules and didn't campaign for it (except Hillary, but she said her stops in Florida before the primary were "fundraisers", not campaign appearances, uh huh). So Hillary stole a march on the others, who expected the votes not to count. If now the Democrats decide they will count after all, it will flagrantly and unfairly benefit Hillary. Which is probably just fine with her. But grossly unfair to the candidates who obeyed the rules. That's what they get for trusting Democrats.

it bears saying that i would say the same thing....:)

[JohnDoe]

I can't believe the work you make me go through just to shine a ray of reality into your liberally-dimmed existence......
http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&SubMenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&BillNum=0537&Year=2007&Chamber=House#Vote

co-sponsers in the House included the following Democrats
Porth; Kravitz; Kiar; Roberson; Brandenburg; Sands; Waldman; and Bucher
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Representatives/representatives.aspx
two co-sponsers in the Senate including Ring, a Democrat...
http://www.flsenate.gov/Legislators/index.cfm?Members=View+Page&District_Num_Link=032&Submenu=1&Tab=legislators&chamber=Senate&CFID=70682729&CFTOKEN=86407954

none of which OUGHT to have been necessary since the Salon piece obviously wasn't an editorial....editorials don't quote people they interviewed.......

so, what are you going to believe....the official Florida documents showing they not only helped sponsor it, but voted for it unanimously..(the combined house/senate version passed 118-0)..or the after the fact disclaimer of the Florida democraps saying it was shoved down their throats?.......

Hahahahahahaha! Thank you pmp for all of your work! i'm sorry to put you through this....

But HERE is the truth, the reason that the vote was near unanimous was because the republicans stuck the measure that required Florida voting machines to have a paper audit on to the same bill in the 11th hour...

I posted you the links to such, I thought?

THAT'S your answer....

And yes, the minority leader did want to move the florida primary up and many Dems wanted to do such early on in the discussions....

BUT IT WAS the Republican leader of the House in Florida that then moved it up to MUCH EARLIER, and before the February 5th date....KNOWING that this would disenfranchise floridian votes, while telling these same people of the state that it would actually make their voices heard even louder...yahdeedah stuff....

Soooooo, my dear PMP...if you had done further reading and maybe understand the scummy manuverings with politics, you would realize that the person that wrote the salon editorial and other media articles, was just playing dumb, and repeating the Republican ...in this particular case, rhetoric and jargon... without even looking in to the details, you know, where the Devil lies or resides...

And I am not saying that the Democrats have not done the same thing with must pass type legislation...

I am just saying that this is what was done in Florida with the legislation for a paper trail on voting machines was added to the bill......and many Democrats that were for moving their primary up but NOT before the feb 5th date, were forced to vote yes.

jd

[JohnDoe]

Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
The national DNC decided early on, that no Dem primaries would be held before Feb. 5. Who was it who decided later, to hold Florida's Dem primary earlier than that?

If it was the Florida Democrat Party, then they should pay for a new primary.

If it was a the FL branch of the DNC, then they should pay.

Alternatively, the Democrat group who decided to hold the primary before the deadline, should apologize to the voters of Florida and explain why their votes will not count. See how well that flies.

No way should the original primary count. The candidates obeyed the rules and didn't campaign for it (except Hillary, but she said her stops in Florida before the primary were "fundraisers", not campaign appearances, uh huh). So Hillary stole a march on the others, who expected the votes not to count. If now the Democrats decide they will count after all, it will flagrantly and unfairly benefit Hillary. Which is probably just fine with her. But grossly unfair to the candidates who obeyed the rules. That's what they get for trusting Democrats.

It was the Florida Legislature that decided to ignore bothe the Democratic and Republican Party dates of no earlier than February 5th.

This Florida Legislature has a Republican leadership/Majority.

The Florida Legislature voted on legislation to have their primary earlier than the February date, knowing it would disenfranchise their voters but under the guise of it giving their voter's more say so....that was the jargon that was being said on the floor of the house and senate by some...

The Florida Democratic Party HAD NOTHING TO DO with this decision to move the Primary to before the February 5the date.
Both the Democratic party and the Republican party penalized florida by taking half or all of their delegates away.
The Candidates had NOTHING to do with moving this date up either...

Even I thought that they did, like you did, but after reading about it, this is simply not the case.

jd

[avatar4321]

It was the Florida Legislature that decided to ignore bothe the Democratic and Republican Party dates of no earlier than February 5th.

This Florida Legislature has a Republican leadership/Majority.

The Florida Legislature voted on legislation to have their primary earlier than the February date, knowing it would disenfranchise their voters but under the guise of it giving their voter's more say so....that was the jargon that was being said on the floor of the house and senate by some...

The Florida Democratic Party HAD NOTHING TO DO with this decision to move the Primary to before the February 5the date.
Both the Democratic party and the Republican party penalized florida by taking half or all of their delegates away.
The Candidates had NOTHING to do with moving this date up either...

Even I thought that they did, like you did, but after reading about it, this is simply not the case.

jd

Looks like Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[JohnDoe]

Looks like Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Yea! sure does look that way....

Especially when people on your side of the aisle continue to espouse the BS that the Florida Democratic party made the decision to move the date up, WHEN it is CLEARLY the Florida Legislature that CHOSE the earlier date, ignoring the rules in place....

And I am not saying the Florida Legislature does not have the authority to set the date whenever they wanted....just that the consequences of such was given to them and THEY CHOSE to ignore it.....and now they are whining like babies....WHICH IS BULLSHIT, because THEY are the ones that CHOSE to not follow the rules and guidelines of primaries that were set forth for ALL STATES by the Republican and Democratic Parties.

I personally do not believe we should have a new election in florida, they had their chance like all other states to vote....they had a RECORD TURNOUT from both sides of the aisle....these voters KNEW that their delegates would not go forth, but they came out to vote anyway, to show their support for their candidates...

Those votes should count. End of Story imo.

jd

[Immanuel]

Yea! sure does look that way....

Especially when people on your side of the aisle continue to espouse the BS that the Florida Democratic party made the decision to move the date up, WHEN it is CLEARLY the Florida Legislature that CHOSE the earlier date, ignoring the rules in place....

And I am not saying the Florida Legislature does not have the authority to set the date whenever they wanted....just that the consequences of such was given to them and THEY CHOSE to ignore it.....and now they are whining like babies....WHICH IS BULLSHIT, because THEY are the ones that CHOSE to not follow the rules and guidelines of primaries that were set forth for ALL STATES by the Republican and Democratic Parties.

I personally do not believe we should have a new election in florida, they had their chance like all other states to vote....they had a RECORD TURNOUT from both sides of the aisle....these voters KNEW that their delegates would not go forth, but they came out to vote anyway, to show their support for their candidates...

Those votes should count. End of Story imo.

jd


That is strange. I haven't heard anyone in Florida whining about it. Seems to me that it is Hillary that is whining not Florida's Democrats.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

That is strange. I haven't heard anyone in Florida whining about it. Seems to me that it is Hillary that is whining not Florida's Democrats.

Immie
Really? hmmmm....I guess that is why governor Chris has spent the last week hitting all the main stream media shows stating that the VOTES OF FLORIDAINS SHOULD COUNT.....that the dem party should pay for a new primary....

It's funny how they did not need to count when he signed the legislation to disenfranchise them....

he's whining, he's your governor....thought he represented the sentiments of his state? ahhhhhhh....ok....maybe he doesn't and he is just trying to manipulate the situation to where he now all of a sudden "looks good" even though he HAPPILY signed the legislation making their delgates not count in full?


jd

[Immanuel]

Really? hmmmm....I guess that is why governor Chris has spent the last week hitting all the main stream media shows stating that the VOTES OF FLORIDAINS SHOULD COUNT.....that the dem party should pay for a new primary....

It's funny how they did not need to count when he signed the legislation to disenfranchise them....

he's whining, he's your governor....thought he represented the sentiments of his state? ahhhhhhh....ok....maybe he doesn't and he is just trying to manipulate the situation to where he now all of a sudden "looks good" even though he HAPPILY signed the legislation making their delgates not count in full?


jd

Like I said, I have not seen or heard anyone from Florida screaming about it. The only one I have heard has been Hillary. But, then, I don't sit at home 24 hours a day watching liars on TV trying to tell us how much they care about the rest of us Americans either.

In fact, I haven't been watching TV at all except for late nights watching COPS or something on the Discovery Channel or NGC trying to fall asleep. TV sucks lately and the mainstream media has been the bottom of the barrel. ;)

BTW: I found an excellent cure for insomnia... it is called The National Basketball Association. :laugh2:

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Like I said, I have not seen or heard anyone from Florida screaming about it. The only one I have heard has been Hillary. But, then, I don't sit at home 24 hours a day watching liars on TV trying to tell us how much they care about the rest of us Americans either.

In fact, I haven't been watching TV at all except for late nights watching COPS or something on the Discovery Channel or NGC trying to fall asleep. TV sucks lately and the mainstream media has been the bottom of the barrel. ;)

BTW: I found an excellent cure for insomnia... it is called The National Basketball Association. :laugh2:

Immiehahahaha! Thanks for the tip on the NBA.... I sure needed them last night....could not fall asleeep if my life depended on it!

jd

[pegwinn]

The bottom line is that if the DNC chooses not to enforce the edict, they will really lose credibility. If they enforce the edict, they will lose supporters. Win/Win for Repubicans.

A do over should be paid for by the state. They are the ones who defied the party. The voters? They get no say in the matter one way or the other.

Of course if I was a florida republican, I would raise holy hell over the extra public tax money being spent.

[Abbey Marie]

...
BTW: I found an excellent cure for insomnia... it is called The National Basketball Association. :laugh2:

Immie

Ah, but NCAA's are coming up, and they are exciting (to me, anyway!)

[Gunny]

So, I just heard on the news more of the details involved with the Florida Primaries, some of which I had heard from Immanuel when he made mention to this on another thread.

The Florida Governor is now causing a tizzy fit and is saying that the Florida delegates should count and that he thinks there should be another primary and that the Democratic Party should pay for it.

Well, I have a beef with this now that I found out the details from this news clip...

It turns out that it was the State of Florida's Legislature that chose to run the Democratic Primary earlier than what the two parties in the primary had in their rules.

The Florida legislature is made up of a Republican Majority....and the Democratic party and most all Democratic members of the Legislature BEGGED the republicans NOT to move their primaries up and BEGGED them not to do this because the Democratic citizens would be disenfrancised.

The Republicaqns in the Florida legislature decided to do this to their Democratic citizens REGARDLESS.

IN this case, I personally believe that the state of Florida should pay for the new primaries or they should count the delegates from the record breaking primary vote turnout that they had already.....

jd

There is no option to choose two of the above.:poke:

IMO, either the original votes should count, or the Democrats should pay for a new primary.

Since when does a political party get to dictate to a state how and when they will hold their primary? Voting is not a privilege extended only by the Dem party.

[pegwinn]

Since when does a political party get to dictate to a state how and when they will hold their primary? Voting is not a privilege extended only by the Dem party.

They cannot lawfully dictate to the state because all elections are set by the state legislature. These dates are a matter of law.

The party is nothing more than a club with local, state, and national chapters. Every fourth year they hold a national club meeting (convention) to nominate which member of thier club they are going to run for President. They utilise the State legislated elections to get a rough count of how many votes there are.

The two events are separate.

Actual elections are a state matter. The state is not bound to accept party rules and the party is not bound to accept the dates the state sets.

The obvious solution (can't imagine why no one thought of it) is to have the Dem voters of Florida simultaneously mail a handwritten ballot to the DNC headquarters via the US Mail. Do this every day for a week and the HQ WILL BE SWAMPED. Total cost for the week is .41 x 7 days. Even the poor can afford it.

The HQ is unable to return the mail if no return address is on the envelope. They have to open the mail to be sure no one included a check or other legit party business. The State Dems can then tell the DNC that the mailings will continue until the delegates are seated. Cost? .41 x 7 x #weeks needed to overload Howards helpers per person.

Problem solved. If you are Florida Dems, you are free to do this. Just be sure my name isn't mentioned I don't want Howard screeching my name at his next speech. :coffee: