why is compassion replacing common sense in the illegal alien debate?

[actsnoblemartin]

From what im gathering from many of this board, its better to go broke, lets illegals get free health care, (not just basic emergency room care, because when they get sick, break a leg, get cancer, their not gonna just sit inside and do nothing), free k-12, free housing, free college, social security.

Then you say, well make um all legal theyll pay taxes, which is great, except for every 99 they cost us, they would only pay 33 cents.

So, its better illegals from mexico and all over the world come here, dont learn english, dont assimilate, and ruin our country, then shoot and/or deport them.

Im sorry, but i think you people have lost your common sense, and id rather be un-compasionate while keeping my common sense, then like you... misplaced compassionate, with no common sense.

[Lizabeth]

From what im gathering from many of this board, its better to go broke, lets illegals get free health care, (not just basic emergency room care, because when they get sick, break a leg, get cancer, their not gonna just sit inside and do nothing), free k-12, free housing, free college, social security.

Then you say, well make um all legal theyll pay taxes, which is great, except for every 99 they cost us, they would only pay 33 cents.

So, its better illegals from mexico and all over the world come here, dont learn english, dont assimilate, and ruin our country, then shoot and/or deport them.

Im sorry, but i think you people have lost your common sense, and id rather be un-compasionate while keeping my common sense, then like you... misplaced compassionate, with no common sense.
I'm with you on this one. Four hospitals have closed within the last couple of months because of the Charity Care issue.

I work in the courts and I have news for the American population. . . these are not up standing individuals. We don't want the majority of these people as citizens. Do you really believe they will pay taxes and become productive members of society. I ask what color is the sky in your world if you believe that one.

I cannot begin to tell you how many illegals pass through our courts for a variety of crimes. From burglary, shoplifting, sex offenders, assault, et cetera. They disappear before sentencing because they are undocumented. They just make up a new name and work for some other landscaper or contractor. So many victims of theft of identity, personal property like your great grandmothers jewelry simply because the company you hired to clean your house employs illegals.

If they are sentenced they are picked up deported and with in 24 hours are back on the same streets. I have spoken to ICE Agents and they are so discouraged. At a recent conference an agent from Chicago transported two illegals that sentenced to probation believe it or not for sexual assaults on children under the age of 5. Yes, 5 year old children. They reported to the probation officer and ICE was waiting to pick them up, which they did. Two days after they were transported back to the country of origin . . . they were back on the streets of Chicago!

A local radio host said it best, If someone broke into my home and cleaned my home top to bottom, did the yard work, the laundry etc., I would say thank you very much as they were taken off in handcuffs for ILLEGALLY ENTERING MY HOME. I don't buy that excuse they are doing the jobs that Americans don't want. Americans can't get the job because the employer would have to pay more. Entering this county (my home) illegally is the first crime, a test of character and more than enough reason to ship them back.

[Yurt]

unless you are not a christian, compassion should always be considered.

if you are not a christian, how can you say compassion should not be considered?

it is not passionate to allow the illegals here this way. this country has made them proverbial slaves. either let them in, or shut them out. real simple. shut them out.

[Lizabeth]

I think making it a compassion issue is a bit nieve. We are easy marks for most of these illegals and they are generally wanted in thier own countries for similar crimes. I've seen the financial information they make out better than I do on a monthly basis.

[Microcosmos]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

[Dilloduck]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

This country isn't just land. It also inlcudes what law abiding immigrants have done to it and sacrificed for it. I'd be glad to share it with law abiding immigrants who can respect the sacrifices people have made for it and act accordingly. There's nothing wrong with asking guests to respect the culture of the hosts.

I am NOT an immigrant. I was born here.

[manu1959]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

all countries are nothing but immigrants.....every country was stolen....if i break into your house and just start living there and eating your food and taking your shit can i call that sharing....

[Monkeybone]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

yah yah blah blah blah. heard it all before. but what it comes down to is the illegal part of it. almost all of our ancestors that came here did it through the proper and legal channels. medical screening and all that jazz. why else do you think that we have had an incease in TB and Leprosy? nothing wrong if they wanna come here, the more the merrier i say. but to come here and take advantage of everything and suck us basically dry is no good.

[Microcosmos]

yah yah blah blah blah. heard it all before. but what it comes down to is the illegal part of it. almost all of our ancestors that came here did it through the proper and legal channels. medical screening and all that jazz. why else do you think that we have had an incease in TB and Leprosy? nothing wrong if they wanna come here, the more the merrier i say. but to come here and take advantage of everything and suck us basically dry is no good.

Like the legal Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee. And the legal acquisition of the Southwest, complete with an existing population of Mexicans who had no problem being Mexicans (of course the natives there were slaughtered by the conquistadores but that's a whole 'nother shitbag). And the legal acquisition of the state of Hawaii. But you're right, that's really ancient news. Like, all the way fifty or sixty years ago. Who needs to remember any of that.

[Microcosmos]

I am NOT an immigrant. I was born here.

So were the children of the illegals next door.

[Dilloduck]

So were the children of the illegals next door.

My parents were ALSO born here. You are making a big mistake claiming that everyone living in the US is an immigrant.

[Microcosmos]

Everyone living in the US can trace their ancestry here no further back than the pilgrims, unless they are Native. The vast majority of us are mixed blood, and a lot of folks can claim some native heritage. But mostly we came from other countries to this country, and mostly less than 3 generations ago. Are you telling me that all of your great-grandparents were born on U.S. soil? If so, you are a rare find. And one or more of them was Native American at least in part.

[Yurt]

all countries are nothing but immigrants.....every country was stolen....if i break into your house and just start living there and eating your food and taking your shit can i call that sharing....

this point is true.

unless of course you suscribe to one of two theories:

1. first man/person

well, you came from somewhere, if not god, then odds are you came from some land mass. maybe obama is right, africa is the mother land.

2. created by god

well, we were created, sinned, cast out, and then put in an Ark. after that, and the tower thing, where we thought we could climb to the heavens, we were spread/cast over the earth. after a world wide flood, which naturally would create an ice age.

[Dilloduck]

Everyone living in the US can trace their ancestry here no further back than the pilgrims, unless they are Native. The vast majority of us are mixed blood, and a lot of folks can claim some native heritage. But mostly we came from other countries to this country, and mostly less than 3 generations ago. Are you telling me that all of your great-grandparents were born on U.S. soil? If so, you are a rare find. And one or more of them was Native American at least in part.

Right--they came here and became legal Americans, created America, fought for America, died for America and had American children. They invested their income and work in America. They learned the language of America and obeyed American law. My great -grandparents were legal immigrants. Their offspring are ALL 100% Americans.

[gabosaurus]

Why is it that Martin has neither?

[manu1959]

this point is true.

unless of course you suscribe to one of two theories:

1. first man/person

well, you came from somewhere, if not god, then odds are you came from some land mass. maybe obama is right, africa is the mother land.

2. created by god

well, we were created, sinned, cast out, and then put in an Ark. after that, and the tower thing, where we thought we could climb to the heavens, we were spread/cast over the earth. after a world wide flood, which naturally would create an ice age.

well if you believe in evolution you came from water and took the land....if you believe in god then it is god's will you took the land from the heathens....so either way you are good.....

[manu1959]

Why is it that Martin has neither?

can you say freudian projection.......

[manu1959]

oops....double post

[pegwinn]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

Just for the record: I am not an immigrant. I am a native american who happens to be bone white and born in Texas. "Native American" is one of those labels designed to send a message. I am just as Native as any of the red braves who dallied with pocahontas.


Like the legal Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee. And the legal acquisition of the Southwest, complete with an existing population of Mexicans who had no problem being Mexicans (of course the natives there were slaughtered by the conquistadores but that's a whole 'nother shitbag). And the legal acquisition of the state of Hawaii. But you're right, that's really ancient news. Like, all the way fifty or sixty years ago. Who needs to remember any of that.

Cry me a river. The indians lost. Spare me the "noble savage" bullshit that accompanies the indian wars or the hawaiian annexation. Hate to break it to you, but expansion is what folks do. The indian tribes expanded the hell out of each other before the euros got here.

Besides, they are better off now.

[Microcosmos]

Just for the record: I am not an immigrant. I am a native american who happens to be bone white and born in Texas. "Native American" is one of those labels designed to send a message. I am just as Native as any of the red braves who dallied with pocahontas.



Cry me a river. The indians lost. Spare me the "noble savage" bullshit that accompanies the indian wars or the hawaiian annexation. Hate to break it to you, but expansion is what folks do. The indian tribes expanded the hell out of each other before the euros got here.

Besides, they are better off now.

so again, what's wrong with sharing? The vast majority of illegals are hardworking folks who love America, which is why they came here in the first place, not out to steal anything from anyone.

[DragonStryk72]

so again, what's wrong with sharing? The vast majority of illegals are hardworking folks who love America, which is why they came here in the first place, not out to steal anything from anyone.

The problem is that we don't have the resources to share, and our compassion beyond common sense will eventually make our country insolvent.

[Microcosmos]

Right--they came here and became legal Americans, created America, fought for America, died for America and had American children. They invested their income and work in America. They learned the language of America and obeyed American law. My great -grandparents were legal immigrants. Their offspring are ALL 100% Americans.

are you saying that the language of America is English? Hate to disappoint you, but there is no official language of the U.S. And like I already mentioned, a big chunk of the U.S. used to be Mexico. What language do they speak on Mexico? Say it with me now: (mostly) Spanish. A whole bunch of U.S. citizens, born in the land that we love, speak Spanish as a first language. Aprendelo, amalo, y vive con eso, que es un hecho.

[pegwinn]

so again, what's wrong with sharing? The vast majority of illegals are hardworking folks who love America, which is why they came here in the first place, not out to steal anything from anyone.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. And, I do have a problem with the BS that is the red tape maze our .gov has in place to get legals in. But, until the day we fix the broken red tape maze we must support and enforce the laws we have on the books unless there is something unconstitutional about them.

My suggestion to you is to write your reps and demand that we first secure the borders. Then, untangle the red tape to the greatest extent possible to encourage folks to legally enter the country.

[manu1959]

are you saying that the language of America is English? Hate to disappoint you, but there is no official language of the U.S. And like I already mentioned, a big chunk of the U.S. used to be Mexico. What language do they speak on Mexico? Say it with me now: (mostly) Spanish. A whole bunch of U.S. citizens, born in the land that we love, speak Spanish as a first language. Aprendelo, amalo, y vive con eso, que es un hecho.

mexico used to be mayan....the spanish killed them all.....well not all as they are still trying to kill the mexican / spanish....that committed genocide against them ..... and then again against the american indian.....

[DragonStryk72]

are you saying that the language of America is English? Hate to disappoint you, but there is no official language of the U.S. And like I already mentioned, a big chunk of the U.S. used to be Mexico. What language do they speak on Mexico? Say it with me now: (mostly) Spanish. A whole bunch of U.S. citizens, born in the land that we love, speak Spanish as a first language. Aprendelo, amalo, y vive con eso, que es un hecho.

Right, except it isn't Mexico anymore. It's not even contested any longer, nor Hawaii, so by your division, The norse own England, Romans own Italy, and Mesopotamia still has claim. Yes, a number, referred to as a minority, just as English is spoken in Mexico, only as the minority language. so what, we switch over to sanskrit? Were I to move to Mexico, I would expect that they would expect me to learn Spanish, and have no issue with that. that's part of moving into a different culture.

Your point has nothing to do with the here and now.

[Microcosmos]

mexico used to be mayan....the spanish killed them all.....well not all as they are still trying to kill the mexican / spanish....that committed genocide against them ..... and then again against the american indian.....

Yeah I was being a little cheeky but you're right, the conquistadores were pretty much assholes and the indigenous to this day are being treated like fourth class citizens.

[manu1959]

Yeah I was being a little cheeky but you're right, the conquistadores were pretty much assholes and the indigenous to this day are being treated like fourth class citizens.

and tell me of what the spanish did to the basque.....no country is without guilt.....what is interesting about america is that it tried to give something back to the american indian in the form of soverign nation and tends to bend over backwards to help people that breaks immigration law ....tell me of another country that has done the same....

[Microcosmos]

Right, except it isn't Mexico anymore. It's not even contested any longer, nor Hawaii, so by your division, The norse own England, Romans own Italy, and Mesopotamia still has claim. Yes, a number, referred to as a minority, just as English is spoken in Mexico, only as the minority language. so what, we switch over to sanskrit? Were I to move to Mexico, I would expect that they would expect me to learn Spanish, and have no issue with that. that's part of moving into a different culture.

Your point has nothing to do with the here and now.


There are plenty of ex-pat Americans in Mexico who have whole communities that speak English only, lots of folks retire there instead of Florida nowadays 'cuz it's cheaper. And the fact that Spanish-speaking folks were ALREADY HERE in the country when part of Mexico became the U.S. has a whole lot to do with today, you bet. Telling folks to learn the language of the U.S. is like telling folks to practice the religion of the U.S. Just because most people speak it, or practice it, doesn't make it official or better!

[DragonStryk72]

There are plenty of ex-pat Americans in Mexico who have whole communities that speak English only, lots of folks retire there instead of Florida nowadays 'cuz it's cheaper. And the fact that Spanish-speaking folks were ALREADY HERE in the country when part of Mexico became the U.S. has a whole lot to do with today, you bet. Telling folks to learn the language of the U.S. is like telling folks to practice the religion of the U.S. Just because most people speak it, or practice it, doesn't make it official or better!

so then, by your position, Spanish is not the official language of Mexico. Problem solved.

[manu1959]

so then, by your position, Spanish is not the official language of Mexico. Problem solved.

mexico does not have an offical language.........go look it up...

[DragonStryk72]

mexico does not have an offical language.........go look it up...

He's the one trying to back up that Spanish is "their" language, but if you apply the his theory to both situations, his whole point falls apart. Only a complete jackass does not learn the language of the culture he decides to go live in.

[manu1959]

He's the one trying to back up that Spanish is "their" language, but if you apply the his theory to both situations, his whole point falls apart. Only a complete jackass does not learn the language of the culture he decides to go live in.

go tell that to all the chinese in china town in sf....or the afgannis in fremont.....there are place you can go in the bay are and unless you speak thier language...your are screwed....little foreign countries in america....

[DragonStryk72]

go tell that to all the chinese in china town in sf....or the afgannis in fremont.....there are place you can go in the bay are and unless you speak thier language...your are screwed....little foreign countries in america....

Right, the whole point being that, given the predominant langugage here, in this country, is English, they should learn it, and are avoiding it at their own peril. Were I to move to China, I would learn Chinese, were I to move to afghanistan I would learn afghanni.

[manu1959]

Right, the whole point being that, given the predominant langugage here, in this country, is English, they should learn it, and are avoiding it at their own peril. Were I to move to China, I would learn Chinese, were I to move to afghanistan I would learn afghanni.

yes but america is not like other nations we tend to be accomodating....just look at or ballots.....you don't even have to speak or read english and you can vote for the pres.....try that in danmark....

[DragonStryk72]

yes but america is not like other nations we tend to be accomodating....just look at or ballots.....you don't even have to speak or read english and you can vote for the pres.....try that in danmark....

Right, but what happens when they are away from these areas? Accomodating or not, they need to learn english, cause you know what, not all landlords, and not all employers are gifted with scruples. They need to know those languages so that they can survive somewhere outside a 10-block radius from their home.

[manu1959]

Right, but what happens when they are away from these areas? Accomodating or not, they need to learn english, cause you know what, not all landlords, and not all employers are gifted with scruples. They need to know those languages so that they can survive somewhere outside a 10-block radius from their home.

kind of like an education or not running up debt you can't afford.....decissions have consequences......

[DragonStryk72]

kind of like an education or not running up debt you can't afford.....decissions have consequences......

Again, right, but this comes back to the OP. In order to be able to be compassionate, we have to be on stable footing, and we aren't. the decision to continue helping Illegals on our dime is costing us the money that could help us starting getting out of debt, so that we have that footing, to be able to help other countries in truly meaningful ways.

[manu1959]

Again, right, but this comes back to the OP. In order to be able to be compassionate, we have to be on stable footing, and we aren't. the decision to continue helping Illegals on our dime is costing us the money that could help us starting getting out of debt, so that we have that footing, to be able to help other countries in truly meaningful ways.

we should not be helping anyone until our house is financially in order....but i digress....

[DragonStryk72]

we should not be helping anyone until our house is financially in order....but i digress....

Actually, I was making the same point, just labelled differently

[actsnoblemartin]

with all due respect that has nothing to do with it, every country has a right to a secure border.


This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

[actsnoblemartin]

you dont know youre history, the mexicans allowed 900 families to live in what was mexico, then the new mexican president cortez i believe his name was, tore up the constitution. and started killing and harrassing the texans. The texans fought back and won, wars have been fought going back to the time of jesus and before, and youre gonna give me the poor mexican, evil american routine?


are you saying that the language of America is English? Hate to disappoint you, but there is no official language of the U.S. And like I already mentioned, a big chunk of the U.S. used to be Mexico. What language do they speak on Mexico? Say it with me now: (mostly) Spanish. A whole bunch of U.S. citizens, born in the land that we love, speak Spanish as a first language. Aprendelo, amalo, y vive con eso, que es un hecho.

[actsnoblemartin]

most illegal immigrants are not learning english, and a country without an official language, without a common language is doomed to fail.

stop being an illegal alien apologist please :cheers2:, no really please stop excusing their law breaking, their identify theft, their crimes, and please stop bashing america, when you find a perfect nation, then you can talk to me :laugh2:


There are plenty of ex-pat Americans in Mexico who have whole communities that speak English only, lots of folks retire there instead of Florida nowadays 'cuz it's cheaper. And the fact that Spanish-speaking folks were ALREADY HERE in the country when part of Mexico became the U.S. has a whole lot to do with today, you bet. Telling folks to learn the language of the U.S. is like telling folks to practice the religion of the U.S. Just because most people speak it, or practice it, doesn't make it official or better!

[actsnoblemartin]

please explain to me how we can afford to share, (which is really just a politically code word for pay... out of tax payers pockets) for illegal aliens and their families health care, education, housing, social security and others when we have a national debt of $ 9 , 3 8 2 , 7 2 7 , 9 7 9 , 7 3 6 . 4 0

http://brillig.com/debt_clock/

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 07 Mar 2008 at 07:04:26 AM GMT is:
$ 9 , 3 8 2 , 7 2 7 , 9 7 9 , 7 3 6 . 4 0

The estimated population of the United States is 303,577,058
so each citizen's share of this debt is $30,907.24.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.67 billion per day since September 29, 2006!
Concerned? Then tell Congress and the White House!

[actsnoblemartin]

im still waiting for anyone to tell me how legalizing, or letting illegals stay is a smart (not compassionate) but smart idea

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_jobs.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/apr06/06-04-26.html

[stephanie]

im still waiting for anyone to tell me how legalizing, or letting illegals stay is a smart (not compassionate) but smart idea

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_jobs.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/apr06/06-04-26.html

don't bother waiting for an answer......
Just keep bending over and stock up on vaseline and don't ask any questions..
take it like we are suppose to..........not even a shot fired....Yippee...:cheers2:

[Gaffer]

you dont know youre history, the mexicans allowed 900 families to live in what was mexico, then the new mexican president cortez i believe his name was, tore up the constitution. and started killing and harrassing the texans. The texans fought back and won, wars have been fought going back to the time of jesus and before, and youre gonna give me the poor mexican, evil american routine?

His name was was Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna. He tore up the constitution of 1824. That's what the original revolt was about. The revolt involved much more than Texas at the time. Other Mexican states were in revolt as well. The Texans were allowed to immigrate there because there was lots of land but very few people.

Texas won its independence because Santa Anna was captured and would have been hung if he didn't agree to the independent state. The Mexican war occurred because the US annexed Texas as part of the US. Santa Anna, again in charge of the country, attacked into Texas. He was promptly defeated and the invasion of Mexico began. CA, AR, NV, NM were all acquired as a result of that war. All were sparsely populated.

The Mexican war was started by Mexico, they paid reparations by ceding land to the US. That land has been irrigated, built on, and improved over the past hundred years. And now Mexicans want it back. And excuse makers like micro want to give it to them.

[JohnDoe]

im still waiting for anyone to tell me how legalizing, or letting illegals stay is a smart (not compassionate) but smart idea

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_jobs.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/apr06/06-04-26.html
Hey Noble Martin! :)
I read or heard somewhere, that legalizing the 20 million would add 20 million younger...new people paying in to social security just in time for the 45 million Baby Boomers to retire, bringing in a great deal of the shortfall needed for the Boomer generation to be funded without having to raise taxes to do such?

Now, I really don't know if this is accurate Martin, and have not had the time to double check it, but on its face, it seems like it has some validity.

Could make sense of why the politicians on both sides of the aisle seem to really want to ignore the problems we have had with immigration quotas/laws being inadequate and spat on.....makes it easier on them to solve the SS shortfall without having to cut their blessed, beloved, earmarked projects for their communities, maybe?

jd

[Gaffer]

Hey Noble Martin! :)
I read or heard somewhere, that legalizing the 20 million would add 20 million younger...new people paying in to social security just in time for the 45 million Baby Boomers to retire, bringing in a great deal of the shortfall needed for the Boomer generation to be funded without having to raise taxes to do such?

Now, I really don't know if this is accurate Martin, and have not had the time to double check it, but on its face, it seems like it has some validity.

Could make sense of why the politicians on both sides of the aisle seem to really want to ignore the problems we have had with immigration quotas/laws being inadequate and spat on.....makes it easier on them to solve the SS shortfall without having to cut their blessed, beloved, earmarked projects for their communities, maybe?

jd

You know what? That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

gotta spread the rep.

[JohnDoe]

You know what? That makes a hell of a lot of sense.

gotta spread the rep.

Thank you! :D

I am not sure IF there IS merit to this, and as I said, I have not had a chance to see if there is anything out there on it...i believe I heard it on C-span....

But it seemed as though it made sense and had possibilities of validity.

jd

[Lizabeth]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.
The US really "stole" nothing. Native Americans have a belief that people do not "own" land. That was then however and this is now. Native Americans have done a lot of land claiming to build casinos. I digress, the real point is, that it is "now" and there have always been laws in place for LEGAL entry to the United States and they have been the least restrictive immigrant policy of any nation.

What I believe the problem is that we fail to understand that the majority of Hispanic Illegals really do not want to be legalized any more than the population of Puerto Rico wants to be a state. It is about the money. Taxes! Think about it - the pay check you get now if no taxes were taken out and you did not have to pay for health insurance - it does not pay to be legal.

Plus that argument that less than 1% are criminals is just stupid. 100% are criminals because they are ILLEGALLY HERE. I would guess those in our courts and on probation number close to 50% and of that 50% almost all of them are repeat offenders. On our sentencing days we have at least 12 people who are illegal and do not speak English.

You cannot get a job anymore unless you are bilingual to accommodate people who are here illegally! Does that make any sense to you? Add to that insult that it is a violation of an illegal alien's civil rights to make it a condition of their probation they learn English. Some of that I have interviewed have been here 10 years or more an never bothered to even try and learn English. They send their children to school and the schools must accommodate the fact they do not speak English but the parents do not pay taxes, so who is bearing the burden? Where is the fairness in that?

There are plenty of citizens and people here legally with valid green cards and visa's that do not reap or qualify for those benefits. Compassion? God helps those who help themselves, themselves being Americans first.

[Microcosmos]

His name was was Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna. He tore up the constitution of 1824. That's what the original revolt was about. The revolt involved much more than Texas at the time. Other Mexican states were in revolt as well. The Texans were allowed to immigrate there because there was lots of land but very few people.

Texas won its independence because Santa Anna was captured and would have been hung if he didn't agree to the independent state. The Mexican war occurred because the US annexed Texas as part of the US. Santa Anna, again in charge of the country, attacked into Texas. He was promptly defeated and the invasion of Mexico began. CA, AR, NV, NM were all acquired as a result of that war. All were sparsely populated.

The Mexican war was started by Mexico, they paid reparations by ceding land to the US. That land has been irrigated, built on, and improved over the past hundred years. And now Mexicans want it back. And excuse makers like micro want to give it to them.


Whoa wait a minute never said nothin bout giving it back! I said share!

[manu1959]

im still waiting for anyone to tell me how legalizing, or letting illegals stay is a smart (not compassionate) but smart idea

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_jobs.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2006/apr06/06-04-26.html

well if i legally hire 20 million people in one day....

the business owners would get to start paying payroll taxes to the local cites

the employee would get to start paying SSI, city, state and federal taxes

if the average wage was what 25k / year times 20 million at say a 10% tax rate.....

that would be what 50,000,000,000........there is a good reason....

[avatar4321]

why do people assume compassion and common sense are incompatible. The common sense act is to prevent illegal immigration so that people dont get exploited. How is it compassionate to support the exploitation of illegal immigrants?

[Microcosmos]

most illegal immigrants are not learning english, and a country without an official language, without a common language is doomed to fail.

stop being an illegal alien apologist please :cheers2:, no really please stop excusing their law breaking, their identify theft, their crimes, and please stop bashing america, when you find a perfect nation, then you can talk to me :laugh2:

I'm not trying to bash America, I'm just trying to point out hypocrisy. It's okay if we did illegal stuff, but it's not okay if they do. I'm all for a path to legalization that involves proving you are a model American citizen and if you can't, deported you will be. Also I'm aware that a lot of immigrants send their money "back home" to their families. It's just that people tend to look at all illegals as criminals when the fact is, most are not--they just want to take part in the American Dream. They aren't stealing or murdering, they're going to work every day and paying their way. Another thing, people want us to prevent this "tide of Spanish-speakers" from "infiltrating our society" when the fact is that there has been no shortage of Spanish-speaking American citizens for the entire history of the U.S.A.!

[DragonStryk72]

I'm not trying to bash America, I'm just trying to point out hypocrisy. It's okay if we did illegal stuff, but it's not okay if they do. I'm all for a path to legalization that involves proving you are a model American citizen and if you can't, deported you will be. Also I'm aware that a lot of immigrants send their money "back home" to their families. It's just that people tend to look at all illegals as criminals when the fact is, most are not--they just want to take part in the American Dream. They aren't stealing or murdering, they're going to work every day and paying their way. Another thing, people want us to prevent this "tide of Spanish-speakers" from "infiltrating our society" when the fact is that there has been no shortage of Spanish-speaking American citizens for the entire history of the U.S.A.!

Okay, first, knowingly, continually, and repetitively breaking the law makes you a criminal. It is not "victimless" either. I'm working toward the American Dream as well, except that I pay taxes as a proper citizen. And because of those taxes, I cannot accept work for less than the minimum wage, which, even were the employer paying minimum to us both, would still be likely to select the illegal over me, why? Becuase they won't need to pay payroll taxes on the immigrant's pay, nor put equivalent to Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security.

As well, our transgressions even 50 year ago are those of a different generation. We cannot spend all of our future paying for the mistakes of the past.

[Lizabeth]

I cannot seem to understand your logic. By being "illegal" you are a "criminal".

I feel it is a shame when I see jobs go on our posting and it is required that the candidate speak Spanish. Not Polish, Russian, Chinese, French, German, Greek, or any other language but Spanish! What does that say first about who is getting arrested and convicted? What does that also say for the kid who graduates from college and now cannot get a job in the United States because he/she does not speak Spanish. Bilingual in this country has come to mean Spanish/English.

If it hasn't happened to you, a relative or a friend yet - wait till you find out that one of this upstanding individuals has sold your name, social security number, vehicle registration for $50 to about 1000 people. My mother found out someone had registered a vehicle under her name and that someone was an illegal. I was involved in a car accident with a van full of illegals. Forged Drivers License, Fake Insurance Card, no valid registration (stole plates), couldn't speak English let alone read it. How the hell was he driving when he cannot read the signs??? I've been to countries where I did not speak the language and you get those little travel phrase books to try and understand - but I tell you I would never even attempt to drive where I could not understand the road signs. Illegals don't care and they do it all the time because if they get caught nothing happens to them.

When we talk about "illegals" these are not people of the best character. If you don't believe me ask any Hispanic who has been here legally and come through the system the proper way.

[Missileman]

I was involved in a car accident with a van full of illegals.

Serves you right for driving a van full of illegals! :laugh2:

[actsnoblemartin]

illegals are not doing high paying jobs, to give 20 million people who do menial labor and who are hired because they can be payed under the table, and lower then minimum wage, and think that after giving them medicare and medicaid along with officially giving them all social security, that they will save those three things, is absolutely insane, and not remotely possible

but i still respect the poster who brought up the idea. :cheers2:

[Microcosmos]

Okay, first, knowingly, continually, and repetitively breaking the law makes you a criminal. It is not "victimless" either. I'm working toward the American Dream as well, except that I pay taxes as a proper citizen. And because of those taxes, I cannot accept work for less than the minimum wage, which, even were the employer paying minimum to us both, would still be likely to select the illegal over me, why? Becuase they won't need to pay payroll taxes on the immigrant's pay, nor put equivalent to Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security.

As well, our transgressions even 50 year ago are those of a different generation. We cannot spend all of our future paying for the mistakes of the past.


Check yourself. Plenty of illegals pay SS and are unable to reap the benefits of it.

[Microcosmos]

I cannot seem to understand your logic. By being "illegal" you are a "criminal".

I feel it is a shame when I see jobs go on our posting and it is required that the candidate speak Spanish. Not Polish, Russian, Chinese, French, German, Greek, or any other language but Spanish! What does that say first about who is getting arrested and convicted? What does that also say for the kid who graduates from college and now cannot get a job in the United States because he/she does not speak Spanish. Bilingual in this country has come to mean Spanish/English.

If it hasn't happened to you, a relative or a friend yet - wait till you find out that one of this upstanding individuals has sold your name, social security number, vehicle registration for $50 to about 1000 people. My mother found out someone had registered a vehicle under her name and that someone was an illegal. I was involved in a car accident with a van full of illegals. Forged Drivers License, Fake Insurance Card, no valid registration (stole plates), couldn't speak English let alone read it. How the hell was he driving when he cannot read the signs??? I've been to countries where I did not speak the language and you get those little travel phrase books to try and understand - but I tell you I would never even attempt to drive where I could not understand the road signs. Illegals don't care and they do it all the time because if they get caught nothing happens to them.

When we talk about "illegals" these are not people of the best character. If you don't believe me ask any Hispanic who has been here legally and come through the system the proper way.

Okay, granted, some illegals are criminals. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority of ID fraud cases are perpetrated by U.S. citizens.

[DragonStryk72]

Check yourself. Plenty of illegals pay SS and are unable to reap the benefits of it.

Excuse me, how do illegals pay into SS? With the illegal identity they use? So because they're now double criminals, that makes it better?

[OCA]

Check yourself. Plenty of illegals pay SS and are unable to reap the benefits of it.

Absolutely, why the hell do you think they endeavor to get the fake I.D's and such? This notion that illegals don't pay into the system that many so love to claim they abuse the hell out of is ludicrous.

[82Marine89]

Okay, granted, some illegals are criminals. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority of ID fraud cases are perpetrated by U.S. citizens.

They are all criminals. Also, could you please provide a link for your other claim?



Check yourself. Plenty of illegals pay SS and are unable to reap the benefits of it.


Absolutely, why the hell do you think they endeavor to get the fake I.D's and such? This notion that illegals don't pay into the system that many so love to claim they abuse the hell out of is ludicrous.

Check the law, when two people place money into a SSAN account, neither gets credit. Who is getting screwed there? Answer.. the American by an illegal alien.

[avatar4321]

Okay, granted, some illegals are criminals. But I can guarantee you that the vast majority of ID fraud cases are perpetrated by U.S. citizens.

by definition all people who are here illegally are criminals. immigration law may only be seen as a summary offense (I really dont know here, although im sure i could check my statute book now). but its still a crime. i dont know what makes one a criminal besides committing a crime.

[JohnDoe]

by definition all people who are here illegally are criminals. immigration law may only be seen as a summary offense (I really dont know here, although im sure i could check my statute book now). but its still a crime. i dont know what makes one a criminal besides committing a crime.
are you considered a ''criminal'' if you JAY walked? are you a criminal if you were charged with speeding?

i would think the statute being broken would determine that?

let us know what you find out, i'd be interested to know if the crime is equilalent to jaywalking, as i have been told?

jd

[Microcosmos]

They are all criminals. Also, could you please provide a link for your other claim?


Absolutely.

http://www2.csoonline.com/exclusives/column.html?CID=33578

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/business/yip2/103105ccdrBizYip.152a18f3.html

http://www.idtheftcenter.org/artman2/uploads/1/The_Aftermath_2004_1.pdf

ID thieves are more likely to be a friend or family member than one of those "scary illegal aliens".

[DragonStryk72]

are you considered a ''criminal'' if you JAY walked? are you a criminal if you were charged with speeding?

i would think the statute being broken would determine that?

let us know what you find out, i'd be interested to know if the crime is equilalent to jaywalking, as i have been told?

jd

Is taking my paycheck a crime? Yes
Is stealing my identity and screwing up my taxes a crime? Yes

Don't even try to pull that fake Jay-walking crap, it is nowhere near the same thing, you know, but want to be dismissive. If you Jay-walked continuously for your entire lifetime you would get picked up by the cops.

[actsnoblemartin]

liberals like jd and micro, have to excuse the bad behavior of illegals by bringing up the bad behavior of legal americans, because they cant excuse the bad behavior of illegals, and cant stick on topic


Is taking my paycheck a crime? Yes
Is stealing my identity and screwing up my taxes a crime? Yes

Don't even try to pull that fake Jay-walking crap, it is nowhere near the same thing, you know, but want to be dismissive. If you Jay-walked continuously for your entire lifetime you would get picked up by the cops.

[JohnDoe]

Is taking my paycheck a crime? Yes
Is stealing my identity and screwing up my taxes a crime? Yes

Don't even try to pull that fake Jay-walking crap, it is nowhere near the same thing, you know, but want to be dismissive. If you Jay-walked continuously for your entire lifetime you would get picked up by the cops.

hahahahahahaha! what a crock of poopie!!!!:laugh2:


I am NOT an amnesty supporter and do feel we have a major illegal immigration problem silly! Just read all my threads on the subject.

I am just not an irrational NUT over the illegal immigration issue....and this is probably primarily because of the old saying, out of site, out of mind....I live in Maine....my worst worry are French Canadians slipping across the border and spending boocoos in our local economy!:laugh2:

BTW, I was just pointing this out because the laws on our books regarding crossing the border illegally are a JOKE.....not even the level of a misdemeanor is what I have read about it, hardly a deterent of any sort!

And yes, I thoroughly understand that crossing the border is the first law that was broken and tax evaision is another, and identity theft is another etc...

I was speaking to the "act of crossing the border" only....whether that was considered a crime or the person doing it a "criminal"....and was wondering what other laws on the books of the same level as illegal entry would the law breaker be considered a "criminal" and IF illegal entry is on the same level as Jaywalking on our books, in our laws....then is a jay walker considered a "criminal" too?

Basically, I was trying to SHOW how WEAK our immigration law regarding illegal entry is....i was trying to emphasize that it was a JOKE!

jd

[actsnoblemartin]

i believe it should be a felony to cross illegally


hahahahahahaha! what a crock of poopie!!!!:laugh2:


I am NOT an amnesty supporter and do feel we have a major illegal immigration problem silly! Just read all my threads on the subject.

I am just not an irrational NUT over the illegal immigration issue....and this is probably primarily because of the old saying, out of site, out of mind....I live in Maine....my worst worry are French Canadians slipping across the border and spending boocoos in our local economy!:laugh2:

BTW, I was just pointing this out because the laws on our books regarding crossing the border illegally are a JOKE.....not even the level of a misdemeanor is what I have read about it, hardly a deterent of any sort!

And yes, I thoroughly understand that crossing the border is the first law that was broken and tax evaision is another, and identity theft is another etc...

I was speaking to the "act of crossing the border" only....whether that was considered a crime or the person doing it a "criminal"....and was wondering what other laws on the books of the same level as illegal entry would the law breaker be considered a "criminal" and IF illegal entry is on the same level as Jaywalking on our books, in our laws....then is a jay walker considered a "criminal" too?

Basically, I was trying to SHOW how WEAK our immigration law regarding illegal entry is....i was trying to emphasize that it was a JOKE!

jd

[actsnoblemartin]

jd i think your right, the rules are laughable at best.

the government needs to get tough on illegals, and their supporters, meaning businesses, the people who give moral and legal support and legislators who try to reward them for bad behavior

I firmly believe that excusing illegals bad behavior by bringing up legal americans bad behavior is dishonest and does not excuse the bad behavior of illegals. Im not trying to talk smack to anyone, just wanted to put that out.



i believe it should be a felony to cross illegally

[JohnDoe]

And my solution to our problem is to shut the jobs down....

no jobs, no illegals rushing the border to cross illegally.... and the ones here already, once they lose their way of income, they will go home....

Then gather those that didn't leave and make them go home to Mexico...

At the same time, raise our temp visas for Migrant workers to work the fields...

Reevaluate our legal immigrant quotas by country so that we get a good mixture of legal immigrants entering this country.... some from Europe, some from Africa, some from certain middle eastern countries, some from south America, some from Mexico, some from Canada, some from China, some from the Carribeaqn Islands, etc.....

Not ALL or the MAJORITY from any one country, like the majority from Mexico.

jd

[AFbombloader]

Absolutely.

http://www2.csoonline.com/exclusives/column.html?CID=33578

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/business/yip2/103105ccdrBizYip.152a18f3.html

http://www.idtheftcenter.org/artman2/uploads/1/The_Aftermath_2004_1.pdf

ID thieves are more likely to be a friend or family member than one of those "scary illegal aliens".

You showed yours, here's mine

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02830t.pdf

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/061213dc.htm

It is very easy to find anthing to support your opinion isn't it?

We have a problem in this country with illegals using the SSN's of others. Do you disagree? What is there to discuss other that the fix for the problem?

AF:salute:

[pegwinn]

And my solution to our problem is to shut the jobs down.... Damn Straight.

no jobs, no illegals rushing the border to cross illegally.... and the ones here already, once they lose their way of income, they will go home....

Then gather those that didn't leave and make them go home to Mexico... Can't do it legally. If they refuse to divulge their citizenship we cannot deport them. Instead, we require proof of American citizenship (like Oklahoma does) to receive social services of any sort. No job, no social service, then they will self deport.

At the same time, raise our temp visas for Migrant workers to work the fields... Can't agree with that. Of course we could post those jobs to the local welfare office and require that they get the first available job to keep the public support going....

Reevaluate our legal immigrant quotas by country so that we get a good mixture of legal immigrants entering this country.... some from Europe, some from Africa, some from certain middle eastern countries, some from south America, some from Mexico, some from Canada, some from China, some from the Carribeaqn Islands, etc.....

Not ALL or the MAJORITY from any one country, like the majority from Mexico. With respect, I have to disagree. Quotas are no more fair in immigration than they are in jobs or colleges. Each person from anywhere must be evaluated on his/her own merits. This is America and we are not supposed to favor or oppose anyone based on National Origin.

jd

Were it up to me:

Eliminate the quota system entirely.
Chip every inbound foriegner so we can track them. Remove the chips upon citizenship.
Chip every illegal that we deport. Make those chips permanent.
Require that they learn pass a written and oral exam in English to become citizens.
Pass the Fairtax. That will ensure they are paying as they go. It will also let the drug dealers contribute to the economy.

[Gaffer]

In answer to "is a jay walker or speeder a criminal?" The answer is yes. Anyone that breaks the law is a criminal. Just cause you are issued a ticket does not mean a crime hasn't occurred. The citation is a remand to court. You just get the option in most cases to pay the fine, which is an admission of guilt to committing a crime. While traffic tickets are not held to the same standard as other crimes, they are still crimes.

[trobinett]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

What a load of shit.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but the rest just shows how misinformed you are.

The MEXICANS are foreign to this land, and ALL the land South of the border.

THEY were the invaders, they came from Spain.

Read your fucking history books...........:cheers2:

[Microcosmos]

What a load of shit.

I agree with the first part of your statement, but the rest just shows how misinformed you are.

The MEXICANS are foreign to this land, and ALL the land South of the border.

THEY were the invaders, they came from Spain.

Read your fucking history books...........:cheers2:


Ever heard of Mestizos? (Probably not--check out some more history books) Sure they have Spanish blood, but they also have a lot of indigenous blood as well. And the border was not always where it is now.

[Missileman]

The MEXICANS are foreign to this land, and ALL the land South of the border.

THEY were the invaders, they came from Spain.

Read your fucking history books...........:cheers2:

75% of the Mexican population is descended from the indigenous races. Though they also have spanish blood in their veins, they could hardly be called invaders.

[Lizabeth]

Check yourself. Plenty of illegals pay SS and are unable to reap the benefits of it.
Some are paying Social Security and that is becasue they bought a SSN off the Street! Another CRIME! And it isn't long before they find out having that number will allow them to apply for credit, a drivers license and any other false document they can get thier hands on. All of this will be okay if, and that is if they pay the bills, as soon as they don't and it goes to a credit collection service that is when you find out your identity has been stolen and your credit ruined.

[Pale Rider]

I'm with you on this one. Four hospitals have closed within the last couple of months because of the Charity Care issue.

I work in the courts and I have news for the American population. . . these are not up standing individuals. We don't want the majority of these people as citizens. Do you really believe they will pay taxes and become productive members of society. I ask what color is the sky in your world if you believe that one.

I cannot begin to tell you how many illegals pass through our courts for a variety of crimes. From burglary, shoplifting, sex offenders, assault, et cetera. They disappear before sentencing because they are undocumented. They just make up a new name and work for some other landscaper or contractor. So many victims of theft of identity, personal property like your great grandmothers jewelry simply because the company you hired to clean your house employs illegals.

If they are sentenced they are picked up deported and with in 24 hours are back on the same streets. I have spoken to ICE Agents and they are so discouraged. At a recent conference an agent from Chicago transported two illegals that sentenced to probation believe it or not for sexual assaults on children under the age of 5. Yes, 5 year old children. They reported to the probation officer and ICE was waiting to pick them up, which they did. Two days after they were transported back to the country of origin . . . they were back on the streets of Chicago!

A local radio host said it best, If someone broke into my home and cleaned my home top to bottom, did the yard work, the laundry etc., I would say thank you very much as they were taken off in handcuffs for ILLEGALLY ENTERING MY HOME. I don't buy that excuse they are doing the jobs that Americans don't want. Americans can't get the job because the employer would have to pay more. Entering this county (my home) illegally is the first crime, a test of character and more than enough reason to ship them back.

Outstanding post Lizabeth... :clap:

[Pale Rider]

Like the legal Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee. And the legal acquisition of the Southwest, complete with an existing population of Mexicans who had no problem being Mexicans (of course the natives there were slaughtered by the conquistadores but that's a whole 'nother shitbag). And the legal acquisition of the state of Hawaii. But you're right, that's really ancient news. Like, all the way fifty or sixty years ago. Who needs to remember any of that.

Well if you want to nit pick about mexicans, who are actually left over Spanish, they STOLE mexico from the Mayans and the Aztecs. Maybe we should kick the mexicans out of mexico by your logic.

[5stringJeff]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.

Every people group everywhere is an immigrant at some point in history. This includes Native Americans (part of my heritage, in case you were wondering), who immigrated to the Americas about 10,000 years ago. And the "Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped" are, you guessed it, immigrants! The natives of the American Southwest didn't speak Spanish.

So who really cares if we "stole" land? It's ours, and we should work to keep the borders of our land secure.

[Pale Rider]

So were the children of the illegals next door.
Illegal people breed illegal children. This sneak into America and pump one out anchor baby shit has got to stop.


Everyone living in the US can trace their ancestry here no further back than the pilgrims, unless they are Native. The vast majority of us are mixed blood, and a lot of folks can claim some native heritage. But mostly we came from other countries to this country, and mostly less than 3 generations ago. Are you telling me that all of your great-grandparents were born on U.S. soil? If so, you are a rare find. And one or more of them was Native American at least in part.
Bullshit. You're making blanket statements that have no credibility. My ancestors were here and fought with George Washington at Valley Forge. Not only the ones that I'm related to, but there were 22 men there with my last name. You know how long ago that was? Yeah... a little more than three generations by a LONG shot, and I am NOT a "rare find."

If you're going to try and convince people here that your "opinion" is based in fact, you're going to have to post a link to some "fact" to back it up.

[Pale Rider]

so again, what's wrong with sharing? The vast majority of illegals are hardworking folks who love America, which is why they came here in the first place, not out to steal anything from anyone.
So if I break into your house, sit down on couch and make myself at home, you're not going to have a problem with that? After all... I just want you to share with me, and don't get mad if I ask you for money, rape your wife, steal your car, and take your job.


are you saying that the language of America is English? Hate to disappoint you, but there is no official language of the U.S. And like I already mentioned, a big chunk of the U.S. used to be Mexico. What language do they speak on Mexico? Say it with me now: (mostly) Spanish. A whole bunch of U.S. citizens, born in the land that we love, speak Spanish as a first language.

Well I hate to disappoint you... but there's a better chance than not that English WILL be the official language of America.

[Trigg]

This country is nothing BUT immigrants, except for the Native Americans, which include the indigenous people of the Southwest (Spanish-speaking folks from the parts of Mexico that we usurped) and Hawaii. We pretty much stole most of the land in the U.S., I think it's okay if we share it.


The big thing here that you seem to be missing is the LEGAL part. People on this sight have no problem with LEGAL immigration, from what ever country.

We however, as a country, cannot continue to share with people who come here illegally, steal SS#'s, steal identities, apply for social programs, send their children to schools, and go to emergency rooms and not pay their bills.

Hospitals in California and other border states are closing down because of lack of payment, schools are overcrowded and students are suffering because of it. Meanwhile Mexico is getting more and more money sent back from people living and working here.

How exactly does this help us as a nation????????????????


Also FYI finding people who's great grandparents were born in this country is not a rare find. It's most people. My dad's family has been here since the war for independence and they came here legally. My mothers family has Cherokee ancestry from my great-great-great grandfather, that however doesn't make me want to share with someone here illegally.

[Pale Rider]

The US really "stole" nothing. Native Americans have a belief that people do not "own" land. That was then however and this is now. Native Americans have done a lot of land claiming to build casinos. I digress, the real point is, that it is "now" and there have always been laws in place for LEGAL entry to the United States and they have been the least restrictive immigrant policy of any nation.

What I believe the problem is that we fail to understand that the majority of Hispanic Illegals really do not want to be legalized any more than the population of Puerto Rico wants to be a state. It is about the money. Taxes! Think about it - the pay check you get now if no taxes were taken out and you did not have to pay for health insurance - it does not pay to be legal.

Plus that argument that less than 1% are criminals is just stupid. 100% are criminals because they are ILLEGALLY HERE. I would guess those in our courts and on probation number close to 50% and of that 50% almost all of them are repeat offenders. On our sentencing days we have at least 12 people who are illegal and do not speak English.

You cannot get a job anymore unless you are bilingual to accommodate people who are here illegally! Does that make any sense to you? Add to that insult that it is a violation of an illegal alien's civil rights to make it a condition of their probation they learn English. Some of that I have interviewed have been here 10 years or more an never bothered to even try and learn English. They send their children to school and the schools must accommodate the fact they do not speak English but the parents do not pay taxes, so who is bearing the burden? Where is the fairness in that?

There are plenty of citizens and people here legally with valid green cards and visa's that do not reap or qualify for those benefits. Compassion? God helps those who help themselves, themselves being Americans first.

Posts like this that are based in reality and filled with fact will go completely ignored Lizabeth. The illegal alien apologist like micro do NOT want these truths brought to the light of day. They do NOT want people to be made AWARE of what is truly happening. They want to throw out sugar coated crap like, "why don't we share," and other bull like juan mccain's outreach director, juan hernandez does, he sits there in interviews with a pretentious dumb ass grin on his face and says, "my friends," all while purporting "mexico first."

This whole debate is so fucking lopsided it makes me sick. Why or where people get the notion that we OWE twenty million goddamn wetbacks ANYTHING is beyond me. Just turn the coin over for a second. Let's send twenty million Americans down to the southern border and have them ILLEGALLY INVADE mexico! What do you think would happen THEN? Yeah... mexico would declare WAR on AMERICA! Well whether you idiot illegal alien apologists realise it or not, THIS IS A WAR! The invasion from mexico into America is the largest land invasion from one country into another IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! They are here to TAKE OVER! LA RAZA! RECONQUISTA! And they won't have to learn English to do that with morons thinking we should "SHARE."

[AFbombloader]

Illegal people breed illegal children. This sneak into America and pump one out anchor baby shit has got to stop.


Bullshit. You're making blanket statements that have no credibility. My ancestors were here and fought with George Washington at Valley Forge. Not only the ones that I'm related to, but there were 22 men there with my last name. You know how long ago that was? Yeah... a little more than three generations by a LONG shot, and I am NOT a "rare find."

If you're going to try and convince people here that your "opinion" is based in fact, you're going to have to post a link to some "fact" to back it up.

Same here Pale. My mothers side arrived (legally and documented) just after the Mayflower and have been here ever since. We have been in every major conflict fighting for the nations creation and to return it to one nation. My dad's side is less clear. Late 1800's for them, but still more than 3 generations.

AF:salute:

[pegwinn]

I don't worry about generations. My Grandfather on Dads side was a Marine in WWI. My Dad was in WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I am no more an American than someone who just got naturalized.

My beef is with the folks here illegally. Period.

BTW, kids born here are citizens. I don't care if Mom and Dad are illegal alien cattle rustling dope smokin communist pigs. When we deport Mom and Dad they can take thier lil American Citizen with them. At 18, I will welcome the citizen back with open arms.

[Microcosmos]

Posts like this that are based in reality and filled with fact will go completely ignored Lizabeth. The illegal alien apologist like micro do NOT want these truths brought to the light of day. They do NOT want people to be made AWARE of what is truly happening. They want to throw out sugar coated crap like, "why don't we share," and other bull like juan mccain's outreach director, juan hernandez does, he sits there in interviews with a pretentious dumb ass grin on his face and says, "my friends," all while purporting "mexico first."

This whole debate is so fucking lopsided it makes me sick. Why or where people get the notion that we OWE twenty million goddamn wetbacks ANYTHING is beyond me. Just turn the coin over for a second. Let's send twenty million Americans down to the southern border and have them ILLEGALLY INVADE mexico! What do you think would happen THEN? Yeah... mexico would declare WAR on AMERICA! Well whether you idiot illegal alien apologists realise it or not, THIS IS A WAR! The invasion from mexico into America is the largest land invasion from one country into another IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! They are here to TAKE OVER! LA RAZA! RECONQUISTA! And they won't have to learn English to do that with morons thinking we should "SHARE."

:yawn: Oh, I'm sorry. Was that supposed to stir some kind of emotional reaction? Exxagerating the threat to life as we know it is a little much, no? Look, I'm not trying to say that illegal immigration isn't a problem. It is. But most are trying to become legal citizens, the path to citizenship isn't instant you know. As for posting factual information, my stepmother, and therefore half of my family, is directly from Cuba or of Cuban descent. It took my tío ("uncle" for the non-wetbacks) about twenty years to gain full citizenship, but he wrked hard and paid taxes and committed no crimes the entire time. My cousins and stepbrothers have full Cuban blood but are American citizens. There are some facts, based on personal experience, for you. I have spent much of my childhood and all of my adult life learning about Latino culture and history. I don't claim to know it all or to have all the answers, but to let a thread like this go by so one-sided doesn't sit well with me.

[Trigg]

:yawn: Oh, I'm sorry. Was that supposed to stir some kind of emotional reaction? Exxagerating the threat to life as we know it is a little much, no? Look, I'm not trying to say that illegal immigration isn't a problem. It is. But most are trying to become legal citizens, the path to citizenship isn't instant you know. As for posting factual information, my stepmother, and therefore half of my family, is directly from Cuba or of Cuban descent. It took my tío ("uncle" for the non-wetbacks) about twenty years to gain full citizenship, but he wrked hard and paid taxes and committed no crimes the entire time. My cousins and stepbrothers have full Cuban blood but are American citizens. There are some facts, based on personal experience, for you. I have spent much of my childhood and all of my adult life learning about Latino culture and history. I don't claim to know it all or to have all the answers, but to let a thread like this go by so one-sided doesn't sit well with me.


You and your family are here legally. There is the big point, your family came here and worked hard and legally became citizens. The gov. knows who you are and your family speaks the language.

Here's the problem, illegals come here with no proof of who they are, they don't pay their bills at hospitals, they overcrowed the schools and don't pay taxes and they ship so much money home that Mexico isn't interrested in getting them back. They work so cheap that American companies who don't hire illegals can't compete with the ones who do.

I'm sorry but with the amount of social aid the illegals are getting we can no longer afford to "share" with just everyone who decides to free load off the American citizens. They need to come here legally, like your family did, or don't come at all.

If there idea of trying to become legal citizens is sneaking in and stealing SS# than I don't want them here. NO AMNESTY!!!!!

[hjmick]

Why is compassion replacing common sense in the illegal alien debate?

Because, at it's heart, America is a compassionate country, as are it's citizens. We always have been. From the start when some sought the freedom to worship, to the days when we opened our shores and pleaded, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me..." These ideas are the bedrock of this country. The compassion to accept anyone and everyone, to give them a chance, and with that to help build this nation into what it is now and what it will be. Even to day our compassion overflows. No greater example of this is the amount of foreign aid distributed around the globe, the aid we send in times of natural disasters. Compassion abounds in the U.S. and it always will, perhaps to fault. As much as most of know just how detrimental illegal immigration can be, we see in the faces of those who come here illegally the embodiment of the words engraved on the Statue of Liberty. We understand why they come. We understand the risks they take to come here. We feel for them. This is why compassion so often usurps common sense in the illegal immigration debate. Because it is at our core. it is who we as Americans are. It is one of many things that make this country great.

It may be the wrong way to approach the problem, but I'm not sure it is something that will change anytime soon.

Remember, the measure if a country's greatness can be determined by the number of people trying to get in.

[Pale Rider]

I don't worry about generations. My Grandfather on Dads side was a Marine in WWI. My Dad was in WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I am no more an American than someone who just got naturalized.

My beef is with the folks here illegally. Period.

BTW, kids born here are citizens. I don't care if Mom and Dad are illegal alien cattle rustling dope smokin communist pigs. When we deport Mom and Dad they can take thier lil American Citizen with them. At 18, I will welcome the citizen back with open arms.

I respect you peg... so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. No way is baby born to illegal aliens magically legal in my eyes. Mommy and daddy have business here, and niether does the baby. Take it back where it belongs.

[Pale Rider]

:yawn: Oh, I'm sorry. Was that supposed to stir some kind of emotional reaction? Exxagerating the threat to life as we know it is a little much, no? Look, I'm not trying to say that illegal immigration isn't a problem. It is. But most are trying to become legal citizens, the path to citizenship isn't instant you know. As for posting factual information, my stepmother, and therefore half of my family, is directly from Cuba or of Cuban descent. It took my tío ("uncle" for the non-wetbacks) about twenty years to gain full citizenship, but he wrked hard and paid taxes and committed no crimes the entire time. My cousins and stepbrothers have full Cuban blood but are American citizens. There are some facts, based on personal experience, for you. I have spent much of my childhood and all of my adult life learning about Latino culture and history. I don't claim to know it all or to have all the answers, but to let a thread like this go by so one-sided doesn't sit well with me.

You bet yer ass it was supposed to invoke an emotional reaction. Unfortunately it didn't, and I see why. You have south of the border relatives. No matter. That's all fine and dandy. I like mexico. I've been there many, many times and even consider retiring down there. However, this whole debate is not about who or where you're from, it's about the "LAW." There is a "legal" way to come to this great country, and there is an "illegal" way to come this country. I don't have a problem at all with every single person that comes here legally. I would even encourage it. But the sons a bitch that SNEAKS in here, and then BLEEDS MY COUNTRY DRY and MARCHES IN THE STREETS DEMANDING RIGHTS... I'll tell ya what... I'd like to fucking shoot the whole lot dead in their tracks right then and there. Not only are they here illegally, they're going to march in MY streets and DEMAND that I GIVE them RIGHTS? FUCK THAT! There isn't a bigger travesty anywhere else on EARTH! I don't like it, and the majority of Americans don't like it. We want the illegals GONE... PERIOD! It is not a good situation, and most every time the people that argue in favor of the illegals, like yourself, have relatives of hispanic descent. Well sorry, but that doesn't give you any right to usurp our laws. You want to come here, do it legally or get the hell out. It's as simple as that, and that's no exaggeration.

[Juantew]

English was established as the official language of America (and I'll include other countries in that name when they make it a part of their countries name, too), in Amendment 4064 in 2006.

Making Illegals legal across the board is an insult to those that do it legally, much akin to equating the thief in your house to one who was invited for dinner or given a gift.

Only about half the illegals in this country come Innitially from Mexico, although it's an easy way for others to get in. Sure we're all transplants... genetically. But for people to stream across our borders and scream that we're not doing enough to accomodate them, not even learning the national language...

But since Mexico seem to be making most of the noise, I have an Idea. We could make Mexico a Territory: they'd have to obey our laws, maybe overwhelm their own schools and hospitals (but they could do it in Spanish, there), then maybe the Billions we send them in aid could bring their own corrupt government to heel instead of their lawmen being seduced by the drugthugs...


But the question is illegal immigrants, isn't it? There's a great film called "Immigratin Gumballs", it has to do with overwhelming the lifeboat. At which point, we all drown. BTW, the breadbasket of the world, US, is now importing wheat.

[Yurt]

English was established as the official language of America (and I'll include other countries in that name when they make it a part of their countries name, too), in Amendment 4064 in 2006.

Making Illegals legal across the board is an insult to those that do it legally, much akin to equating the thief in your house to one who was invited for dinner or given a gift.

Only about half the illegals in this country come Innitially from Mexico, although it's an easy way for others to get in. Sure we're all transplants... genetically. But for people to stream across our borders and scream that we're not doing enough to accomodate them, not even learning the national language...

But since Mexico seem to be making most of the noise, I have an Idea. We could make Mexico a Territory: they'd have to obey our laws, maybe overwhelm their own schools and hospitals (but they could do it in Spanish, there), then maybe the Billions we send them in aid could bring their own corrupt government to heel instead of their lawmen being seduced by the drugthugs...


But the question is illegal immigrants, isn't it? There's a great film called "Immigratin Gumballs", it has to do with overwhelming the lifeboat. At which point, we all drown. BTW, the breadbasket of the world, US, is now importing wheat.

the rest of your post was good. i can't believe this is true.

[pegwinn]

I respect you peg... so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. No way is baby born to illegal aliens magically legal in my eyes. Mommy and daddy have business here, and niether does the baby. Take it back where it belongs.

The respect is mutual. And disagreement is good in some cases. I mean, if everyone always agreed with me, it would get boring real quick.

My opinion is based on the Constitution. If I am willing to stand up for my right to bear arms, or tell a congress critter to kiss my ass, or to simply be left alone by the fed...... I have to stand up for others Constitutional rights as well.

This aint like abortion where someone had to find it within the inviso ink. A person born here is an American Citizen and that is set in stone until the 14th amendment is repealed.

Didja notice I still said to deport Ma and Pa the illegal alien? The kid can stay here with other citizens, or go with Ma and Pa and come back at age 18.

C'ya

[trobinett]

You bet yer ass it was supposed to invoke an emotional reaction. Unfortunately it didn't, and I see why. You have south of the border relatives. No matter. That's all fine and dandy. I like mexico. I've been there many, many times and even consider retiring down there. However, this whole debate is not about who or where you're from, it's about the "LAW." There is a "legal" way to come to this great country, and there is an "illegal" way to come this country. I don't have a problem at all with every single person that comes here legally. I would even encourage it. But the sons a bitch that SNEAKS in here, and then BLEEDS MY COUNTRY DRY and MARCHES IN THE STREETS DEMANDING RIGHTS... I'll tell ya what... I'd like to fucking shoot the whole lot dead in their tracks right then and there. Not only are they here illegally, they're going to march in MY streets and DEMAND that I GIVE them RIGHTS? FUCK THAT! There isn't a bigger travesty anywhere else on EARTH! I don't like it, and the majority of Americans don't like it. We want the illegals GONE... PERIOD! It is not a good situation, and most every time the people that argue in favor of the illegals, like yourself, have relatives of hispanic descent. Well sorry, but that doesn't give you any right to usurp our laws. You want to come here, do it legally or get the hell out. It's as simple as that, and that's no exaggeration.

I was getting ready to post something, but, it looked, and sounded just like Pales.

Great post Pale...........:salute:

[Juantew]

the rest of your post was good. i can't believe this is true.
Yurt; Thanks, this is my first post. Check out
WWW.ers.usda.gov./Data/wheat/YBtable23.asp

One of the things that got me is how much more we seem to be importing, year by year.

[Microcosmos]

[QUOTE=Juantew;214898]English was established as the official language of America (and I'll include other countries in that name when they make it a part of their countries name, too), in Amendment 4064 in 2006.QUOTE]

Um, maybe someone should tell that one to the folks who are still trying to make English the official language of the United States.

http://www.us-english.org/

[Microcosmos]

http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=6d9f9935-802a-23ad-491b-d8a8b2c97c7b&Region_id=&Issue_id=4e74117e-802a-23ad-40cc-02fa02764c40

Still trying to pass it though

[Juantew]

[QUOTE=Juantew;214898]English was established as the official language of America (and I'll include other countries in that name when they make it a part of their countries name, too), in Amendment 4064 in 2006.QUOTE]

Um, maybe someone should tell that one to the folks who are still trying to make English the official language of the United States.

http://www.us-english.org/
Yes, they should.

Snopes.com/politics/immigration/englishvote.asp

They voted it in, then voted to contradict themselves, essentially, even though it is legally the "official and common and unifying language of the USA<

[Juantew]

Because, at it's heart, America is a compassionate country, as are it's citizens. We always have been. From the start when some sought the freedom to worship, to the days when we opened our shores and pleaded, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me..." These ideas are the bedrock of this country. The compassion to accept anyone and everyone, to give them a chance, and with that to help build this nation into what it is now and what it will be. Even to day our compassion overflows. No greater example of this is the amount of foreign aid distributed around the globe, the aid we send in times of natural disasters. Compassion abounds in the U.S. and it always will, perhaps to fault. As much as most of know just how detrimental illegal immigration can be, we see in the faces of those who come here illegally the embodiment of the words engraved on the Statue of Liberty. We understand why they come. We understand the risks they take to come here. We feel for them. This is why compassion so often usurps common sense in the illegal immigration debate. Because it is at our core. it is who we as Americans are. It is one of many things that make this country great.

It may be the wrong way to approach the problem, but I'm not sure it is something that will change anytime soon.

Remember, the measure if a country's greatness can be determined by the number of people trying to get in.
Good, direct answer to a direct question!