Appeals court weighs teen's Web speech

[LiberalNation]

Schools should have no authority over things that happen off school ground/functions. This is bullshit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_re_us/student_speech;_ylt=AoyemdT0j2RgvnoNrBd2ORdvzwcF

[quote]NEW YORK - A teen who used vulgar slang in an Internet blog to complain about school administrators shouldn't have been punished by the school, her lawyer told a federal appeals court.

But a lawyer for the Burlington, Conn., school told the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Tuesday that administrators should be allowed to act if such comments are made on the Web.

Avery Doninger, 17, claims officials at Lewis S. Mills High School violated her free speech rights when they barred her from serving on the student council because of what she wrote from her home computer.

In her Internet journal, Doninger said officials were canceling the school's annual Jamfest, which is similar to a battle of the bands contest. The event, which she helped coordinate, was rescheduled.

According to the lawsuit, she wrote: "`Jamfest' is canceled due to douchebags in central office," and also referred to an administrator who was "pissed off."

After discovering the blog entry, school officials refused to allow Doninger to run for re-election as class secretary. Doninger won anyway with write-in votes, but was not allowed to serve.

A lower federal court had supported the school. U.S. District Judge Mark Kravitz, denying Doninger's request for an injunction, said he believed she could be punished for writing in a blog because the blog addressed school issues and was likely to be read by other students.

Her lawyer, Jon L. Schoenhorn, told the appeals court Tuesday that what students write on the Internet should not give schools more cause to regulate off-campus speech.

"It's just a bigger soapbox," he said.

[hjmick]

I came across this story earlier today and have to say that I had the same reaction. Unless the student in question made the entry while on a school computer or unless the entry caused a problem at school, it's none of their damn business.

[theHawk]

Schools should have no authority over things that happen off school ground/functions. This is bullshit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_re_us/student_speech;_ylt=AoyemdT0j2RgvnoNrBd2ORdvzwcF


NEW YORK - A teen who used vulgar slang in an Internet blog to complain about school administrators shouldn't have been punished by the school, her lawyer told a federal appeals court.

But a lawyer for the Burlington, Conn., school told the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Tuesday that administrators should be allowed to act if such comments are made on the Web.

Avery Doninger, 17, claims officials at Lewis S. Mills High School violated her free speech rights when they barred her from serving on the student council because of what she wrote from her home computer.

In her Internet journal, Doninger said officials were canceling the school's annual Jamfest, which is similar to a battle of the bands contest. The event, which she helped coordinate, was rescheduled.

According to the lawsuit, she wrote: "`Jamfest' is canceled due to douchebags in central office," and also referred to an administrator who was "pissed off."

After discovering the blog entry, school officials refused to allow Doninger to run for re-election as class secretary. Doninger won anyway with write-in votes, but was not allowed to serve.

A lower federal court had supported the school. U.S. District Judge Mark Kravitz, denying Doninger's request for an injunction, said he believed she could be punished for writing in a blog because the blog addressed school issues and was likely to be read by other students.

Her lawyer, Jon L. Schoenhorn, told the appeals court Tuesday that what students write on the Internet should not give schools more cause to regulate off-campus speech.

"It's just a bigger soapbox," he said.

How was her freedom of speech rights violated? No one is stopping her from posting such comments, she is completely free to say what she wants.
But she needs to understand that a school is not going to allow someone that slanders their staff to have the previledge of holding student body positions.

People need to learn that there are repercussions for what they say publically. Sure, we all have the freedom to say anything we want to, but we also have to accept reponsibility for what we say. When you slander people in public don't expect them to be nice to you.

[theHawk]

I came across this story earlier today and have to say that I had the same reaction. Unless the student in question made the entry while on a school computer or unless the entry caused a problem at school, it's none of their damn business.

True, but if the students themselves found out about it and were spreading the word, then the school officials would have the right to respond to it once learning about it right?

[LiberalNation]

Half of all school officials are douchebags, this is just another example. Like they don't talk shit about students too.

[hjmick]

True, but if the students themselves found out about it and were spreading the word, then the school officials would have the right to respond to it once learning about it right?

I would have to say no, unless there was some sort of disruption of the school itself as a result of her blog entry. If all the students are doing is talking about it, that is harmless. Gossip. That is less disruptive that passing notes in class.

[theHawk]

Half of all school officials are douchebags, this is just another example. Like they don't talk shit about students too.

And if they posted public web pages slandering a student, they would be in alot of trouble.


This isn't about freedom of speech, its about allowing school officials to punish a student for slandering.

[LiberalNation]

Thing is, they have no authority to do it if the slandering doesn't happen on school grounds. They aren't the civil police for the general public. If a parents had posted this and they had punished that parents student would you still be for it.

[gabosaurus]

Schools are not a democracy. Students have a right to fair comment. Schools have a right to react to that fair comment.
It's not unlike a business. If you are working for Company A, and you post a blog that says "Company A is going into the toilet because Mr. Shithead is a terrible boss," I am guessing that Mr. Shithead will can your ass if he finds out.
School prepares you for life. Life is about cooperation. If you say or do something wrong, you are going to pay the consequences.

You think private schools are any different? Many private schools have a "code of conduct" that students have to adhere to, 24/7. Public schools do the same thing with students that they consider to be representatives -- athletes, class officers and such.

It's called "personal responsibility." Too bad so many parents fail to instill that in their kids.

[Monkeybone]

Schools are not a democracy. Students have a right to fair comment. Schools have a right to react to that fair comment.
It's not unlike a business. If you are working for Company A, and you post a blog that says "Company A is going into the toilet because Mr. Shithead is a terrible boss," I am guessing that Mr. Shithead will can your ass if he finds out.
School prepares you for life. Life is about cooperation. If you say or do something wrong, you are going to pay the consequences.

You think private schools are any different? Many private schools have a "code of conduct" that students have to adhere to, 24/7. Public schools do the same thing with students that they consider to be representatives -- athletes, class officers and such.

It's called "personal responsibility." Too bad so many parents fail to instill that in their kids.

:clap: thank you Gabs. i was just thinking the same thing. there are no consequences to fear until they hit the real world and then kids freak out.

[Yurt]

How was her freedom of speech rights violated? No one is stopping her from posting such comments, she is completely free to say what she wants.
But she needs to understand that a school is not going to allow someone that slanders their staff to have the previledge of holding student body positions.

People need to learn that there are repercussions for what they say publically. Sure, we all have the freedom to say anything we want to, but we also have to accept reponsibility for what we say. When you slander people in public don't expect them to be nice to you.

then sue for slander like any other plaintiff, not abuse your administrative authority.

[Yurt]

Schools are not a democracy. Students have a right to fair comment. Schools have a right to react to that fair comment.
It's not unlike a business. If you are working for Company A, and you post a blog that says "Company A is going into the toilet because Mr. Shithead is a terrible boss," I am guessing that Mr. Shithead will can your ass if he finds out.
School prepares you for life. Life is about cooperation. If you say or do something wrong, you are going to pay the consequences.

You think private schools are any different? Many private schools have a "code of conduct" that students have to adhere to, 24/7. Public schools do the same thing with students that they consider to be representatives -- athletes, class officers and such.

It's called "personal responsibility." Too bad so many parents fail to instill that in their kids.


you are forced to go to school, not to work in a corporation, big difference

[Monkeybone]

you are forced to go to school, not to work in a corporation, big difference

so since your forced to do something, it's ok not to have reactions for your action?

[Yurt]

so since your forced to do something, it's ok not to have reactions for your action?

the laws governing what a corp can do and what a school can do are not the same. for instance, a corporation is a private actor, not a state actor like a school administrator. if an employee wants to mouth off about work, gets caught or better yet, decides to simply quit, fine. a student cannot simply quit that school, as such, the administrators have a greater degree of authority over her personel freedom that would not exist in a corporation.

[Monkeybone]

the laws governing what a corp can do and what a school can do are not the same. for instance, a corporation is a private actor, not a state actor like a school administrator. if an employee wants to mouth off about work, gets caught or better yet, decides to simply quit, fine. a student cannot simply quit that school, as such, the administrators have a greater degree of authority over her personel freedom that would not exist in a corporation.

but they aren't making her quit, or limiting her education in anyway. just not letting her sit on the student gov body.

[theHawk]

then sue for slander like any other plaintiff, not abuse your administrative authority.

School administration doesn't have authority to punish students? Thats news to me.

[theHawk]

you are forced to go to school, not to work in a corporation, big difference


Correct, and because the lass is getting a taxpayer paid education, then we the taxpayers expect her to go to school and study. Not to stirr up shit with public outbursts. No one student has "the right" to serve on the student body. Thats a priviledge that school officials allow. I would hope only good students with good grades would be afforded that priviledge.

[Hobbit]

School administration doesn't have authority to punish students? Thats news to me.

The school does not have the authority to punish students for things that occur off campus. If they're so upset about this, they're free to use the legal system, but punishing a school directly punishing a student for something done off of school grounds is like the DEA arresting you for that time you smoked perfectly legal weed in Amsterdam, or the state of Georgia arresting you for the perfectly legal hookers you hired while you were in Nevada. More to the point, it would be like forbidding a congressman from taking office because he said something bad about the president or the current government while in another country. It's off school grounds. It's outside of their jurisdiction. It's also a punishment levied due to a disagreement with an opinion, and I would feel no differently if it was student who was trashed. They've overstepped their bounds.

Now, I think what the kid did was childish (surprise) and stupid and should be punished...by her parents, but what the administration did was at least as childish. Come on, idiots, grow a little skin. Who cares what some angsty teenager thinks and who cares who was class secretary after graduation? Do you even remember the name of your student body president? No wonder all these kids are growing up as hypersensitive wusses. Their teachers have thinner skins than they do.

[DragonStryk72]

Schools are not a democracy. Students have a right to fair comment. Schools have a right to react to that fair comment.
It's not unlike a business. If you are working for Company A, and you post a blog that says "Company A is going into the toilet because Mr. Shithead is a terrible boss," I am guessing that Mr. Shithead will can your ass if he finds out.
School prepares you for life. Life is about cooperation. If you say or do something wrong, you are going to pay the consequences.

You think private schools are any different? Many private schools have a "code of conduct" that students have to adhere to, 24/7. Public schools do the same thing with students that they consider to be representatives -- athletes, class officers and such.

It's called "personal responsibility." Too bad so many parents fail to instill that in their kids.

But where exactly does that stop?Are children no longer allowed to complain about things at playgrounds, or when they're at home hanging with friends? We are guaranteed the right to bitch about things, that's a part of the 1st Amendment, and this wasn't even destructive speech. It was pretty much, "What they did sucked, and I think they're jerks".

This is what's wrong with the school? An active member of the student body having a single point of complaint in 4 years of high school? Seriously, is there a time on, or off campus, when a student isn't complaining? Maybe they should focus more on teaching, and less on students having light complaints.

[Yurt]

but they aren't making her quit, or limiting her education in anyway. just not letting her sit on the student gov body.


School administration doesn't have authority to punish students? Thats news to me.


Correct, and because the lass is getting a taxpayer paid education, then we the taxpayers expect her to go to school and study. Not to stirr up shit with public outbursts. No one student has "the right" to serve on the student body. Thats a priviledge that school officials allow. I would hope only good students with good grades would be afforded that priviledge.


I echo what hobbit said. The school has no right to chill her speech off campus by punishing her on campus. Unless she was acting in the official capacity of whatever her student body position was, then she has a right as a private citizen to voice her compllaints. If she had said this in the mall in front of a hundred people, this wouldn't be news.

[DragonStryk72]

Correct, and because the lass is getting a taxpayer paid education, then we the taxpayers expect her to go to school and study. Not to stirr up shit with public outbursts. No one student has "the right" to serve on the student body. Thats a priviledge that school officials allow. I would hope only good students with good grades would be afforded that priviledge.

so the public has the right to tell your kid to shut up? To raise them? What, because they manage the chore of filling out a W-4 form?

And this wasn't exactly public, someone had to go look for it, it wasn't on the schools bulletin board, it was on her personal web journal page, the place just about every teen in the US, and points beyond, even, go to bitch about their problems. I guarantee you that every single student pretty much unanimously hated the jamfest getting canceled, even if it was, later, rescheduled, and alot more publicly than she did. So what, the entire student council should also be dropped.

Personally, I'm hoping the school can come together on this, cause the frank fact is that this is such a violation of their personal rights.

[Kathianne]

I came across this story earlier today and have to say that I had the same reaction. Unless the student in question made the entry while on a school computer or unless the entry caused a problem at school, it's none of their damn business.

I'll agree with you, providing that schools should not be held liable for bullying via texts, im's, myspace type entries.

Seems most of the bullying my students face is via off campus communications. The spillover we are supposed to deal with, sorry, we make out space bully free, can't deal with the off campus, 'Your momma' shit.

[Lizabeth]

It is a travesty in this country that legislators have moved so far away from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Founding Fathers had no idea that free speech would be trampled so badly. The Supreme Court has identified what are reasonable limits on Free Speech and it includes direct or eminent harm from the speech. Remember yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? Or speech that threatens national security. These types of speech can have devastating results and should be limited. But a blog expressing an personal opinion?! People need to get a grip on reality. That is what free speech is all about.

This political correct society has become its own monster. A monster that decides that because a select few disagree, are “offended” or do not like your opinion, it is suddenly harmful and should be restricted. The ones who are “offended” are the worst and are no different than any other radical extreme group that has deemed your speech should be limited simply because you have a different thought from them. These are the scarcest people and they are growing in numbers by the minute. If we all think alike - where is the excitement in that? Where are the new ideas? We need to bring back the passion and excitement to speech. People need to be able to bang their fists on a table to show the passion, to express anger at issues or events. Remember Mr. Smith Goes to Washington? Great movie and even better lesson.

Disgusts me to no end. Personally, I do not really even feel this student should be punished if she made that post on a school computer. Apparently, she paid attention in school and exercised her right to voice an opinion. No one has to like it, no one has to agree with it, no one even says you have to read or listen to it. Its been said many times over the 230 odd years our country has been in existence. . . I may not like or agree with what you have to say, but I defend your right to say it.

The erosion of our rights keeps getting worse. Anyone remember the "Eminent Domain" issue of a few years back? There are still numerous abuses across the country over that one. The taking of homes and property by local authorities because it would serve the community better to use your property for a strip mall. Does anyone believe that our Founding Fathers invisioned the taking of private property would be to put up a new WalMart?

[actsnoblemartin]

my two cents, unless she threatens someone. or breaks the law, it is none of the school admins fucking business.

Also, I would like to say to the school admins, my god.... grow a pair, wahh, she said called us a name. Even if she told her friend on campus, man the principal is a douche bag ball licking faggot, the admins need to quit crying & soiling their panties/adult depends over this.

I'd like to hold a funeral for free speech: r.i.p.

sadly this shit happens all the time, not just in high schools

[actsnoblemartin]

my two cents, unless she threatens someone. or breaks the law, it is none of the school admins fucking business.

Also, I would like to say to the school admins, my god.... grow a pair, waah, she said called us a name. Even if she told her friend on campus, man the principal is a cak sucking, pu55y licking, ainell taking, sea-men spraying, doo-shhhh fogs the admins need to quit crying & soiling their panties/adult depends over this.

I'd like to hold a funeral for free speech: r.i.p.

sadly this shit happens all the time, not just in high schools

[JohnDoe]

The school is the "gvt", they can not prevent her from her right to free speech off campus...by not letting her serve on the student council is an indirect way of trying to control the speech of all students attending the school.

And btw if we really are soverign, as we say we are, that gvt is our gvt, including that girl that's being picked on by the school...those people work and get paid by her and her family and govern through her/her family's soverign power...the children of the school spoke by writing her name in to vote her in to the position, knowing the administration had removed her name from the ballot....MORE is going on here and it seems way too authoritative to me...

what fricking country do we live in? China for goodness sakes? Control freaks!!! Live and let live.............please STOP with over using gvt and making them have more and more power because you are a tad pissed....grow up, chill out, or take a pill, but don't become what we fought a revolution and many wars since to protect from this kind of authoritative, overreaching crap.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

jd

[actsnoblemartin]

i so agree, its not even funny, we need to limit governments powers, that is the essence of government for the people by the people of the people


The school is the "gvt", they can not prevent her from her right to free speech off campus...by not letting her serve on the student council is an indirect way of try to control the speech of all students attending the school.

And btw if we really are soverign, as we say we are, that gvt is our gvt, including that girl that's being picked on by the school...those people work and get paid by her and her family and govern through her/her family's soverign power...the children of the school spoke by writing her name in to vote her in to the position, knowing the administration had removed her name from the ballot....MORE is going on here and it seems way too authoritative to me...

what fricking country do we live in? China for goodness sakes? Control freaks!!! Live and let live.............please STOP with over using gvt and making them have more and more power because you are a tad pissed....grow up, chill out, or take a pill, but don't become what we fought a revolution and many wars since to protect from this kind of authoritative, overreaching crap.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

jd

jd

[Lizabeth]

I find it even more egregious the school also decided to override the will of the students to elect her. What are they really afraid of here? Seems to me she might be a threat to someone in that school. By threat I mean she is apparently smarter than the administrators and that is usually the first reason behind such retaliatory actions.

[Dilloduck]

I find it even more egregious the school also decided to override the will of the students to elect her. What are they really afraid of here? Seems to me she might be a threat to someone in that school. By threat I mean she is apparently smarter than the administrators and that is usually the first reason behind such retaliatory actions.

Undermining the authority of teachers has created an environment in which learning anything is a rare side effect of attending school.

[Lizabeth]

Undermining the authority of teachers has created an environment in which learning anything is a rare side effect of attending school.
I agree. Couldn't have said it better!

[actsnoblemartin]

outstanding :clap:


Undermining the authority of teachers has created an environment in which learning anything is a rare side effect of attending school.

[Dilloduck]

outstanding :clap:

Quit being a suck up Martin---you just got done posting how you think what the school did was wrong. :laugh2: