The Phoenix: John McCain in 2008! [Archive] - Debate Policy

WRL

03-01-2008, 04:18 AM

John McCain 2008
http://images.politico.com/global/mccain%20on%20time%20cover.jpg

John McCain is the electable Republican, and the only thing standing between a Democrat/socialists dominated government. As Joe Lieberman stressed endorsing John McCain for President, his Senate colleague would always elevate his country above his party. Something we desperately need when Congress can only agree enough to take on steroids in Baseball during this time of so many crisis.
McCain has also pledged to "stop out-of-control federal spending." He repeatedly cites the example of a $233 million 'bridge to nowhere' that taxpayers funded for a bridge to an Alaskan island of only 50 residents.

"It will never happen again when I'm president" said McCain.

The McCain message -- both tough and independent -- appeals cross party lines, like to Andy Everman, 46, a Democrat who said he will vote for McCain.

McCain is the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and an outspoken supporter of the surge in Iraq... he first promoted a surge strategy to send thousands of additional troops to Iraq that President Bush adopted. McCain said the strategy is working.

"We will never surrender when I'm president of the United States; they will" said McCain, 71, a former naval aviator who spent five years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

"If I have to follow him to the gates of hell, I will, and I will get Osama bin Laden."

In a strange way, the elements of the primary campaign have conspired to give McCain a second shot at the nomination... Can McCain take advantage of that? He has admitted error on two key positions that generated considerable ire among Republicans: tax cuts and immigration. His position on cuts now unreservedly recognizes the economic boost that Bush's reductions created, and says he will defend them as President. Only that they need to be accompanied by spending cuts. And on immigration he will focus on the borders first...

McCain has been magnificent on the war and on spending. He has bucked his own party on what turned out to be a poor strategy in post-war Iraq and fought hard for the White House when they finally took his advice. For porkbusting, one could not find a better candidate, one who has already fought in the trenches as a member of the Commerce Committee against the thinly-veiled bribery system that has gripped Congress.

McCain has cross party appeal, a must to win the election...

Karysa Trombley, an 18-year-old Jackson resident whose husband is at submarine training classes with the Navy, said McCain's "military experience (would) make him an excellent" president.

"He understands what it's about and he's committed to the military, which is important to me," she said.

Those qualities have rightly kept him in contention -- but will they be enough for him to prevail?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110011007
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thisweek/2007/12/daily-roundt-10.html
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080114/POLITICS/801140347

McCain Endorsements...

First, the New Hampshire Union Leader called him "the man to lead America."
Next, the Des Moines Register and Boston Globe gave him their support. Then, former Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Lieberman joined Team McCain. Emphasizing his cross party positives, as a canidate who has the connections, the record of being able to tackle partisanship, and get bipartisan legislation passed in Congress. John McCain is also the pick of S. Carolina's largest paper. A few national figures to endorse McCain include, George H. W. Bush, Jack Kemp, Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf...

John McCain is the electable Republican, the only thing standing between a Government completely run amok with a socialist rubber stamp. Only John McCain can offer a moderate 'balance' to Government.

Election 2008: McCain vs. Clinton and Obama

John McCain continues to hold a very modest lead against both potential Democratic challengers. In a general election match-up, McCain now leads Barack Obama 46% to 44% and Hillary Clinton 48% to 44%.

What do Republicans think?

Republican Presidential Nomination

RealClearPolitics Poll Averages: National GOP

McCain 54
Huckabee 27

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/13/us/14poll_600.jpg

Sitarro

03-01-2008, 05:02 AM

WRL

03-01-2008, 05:07 AM

What are you talking about? The Forrestal incident?

The truth...

By now a Lieutenant Commander, McCain was again almost killed in action on July 29, 1967 while serving on the Forrestal, operating at Yankee Station. The crew was preparing to launch attacks when a Zuni rocket from an F-4 Phantom was accidentally fired across the carrier's deck. The rocket struck McCain's A-4E Skyhawk as the jet was preparing for launch.

The impact ruptured the Skyhawk's fuel tank, which ignited the fuel and knocked two bombs loose. McCain escaped from his jet by climbing out of the cockpit, working himself to the nose of the jet, and jumping off its refueling probe onto the burning deck of the aircraft carrier. Ninety seconds after the impact, one of the bombs exploded underneath his airplane. McCain was struck in the legs and chest by shrapnel. The ensuing fire killed 132 sailors, injured 62 others, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and took 24 hours to control. A day or two after the Forrestal incident, McCain volunteered to join the VA-163 Saints on board the short-staffed USS Oriskany, which had earlier endured its own deck fire disaster[19] and whose squadrons had suffered heavy losses during Rolling Thunder, with one-third of their pilots killed or captured during 1967

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

A video to watch describing the event.

http://www.johnmccain.com/bvid/

Sitarro

03-01-2008, 06:03 AM

This was what I was talking about....... He is a hot head and an arrogant showoff with a short guy complex, not Presidential. Romney was the obvious choice but religious nutcases voted for a Baptist preacher instead of a business man who happens to be a Mormon, they can kiss my ass, they are holding down the Republican Party. That left the rest of the fools to vote for McCain because they had heard his name before. McCain will have to do something intelligent with a VP pick, what's the chance of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

He began as a subpar flier, with limited patience for studying aviation manuals.[21] During a practice run in Texas, his engine quit while landing, and his aircraft crashed into Corpus Christi Bay, though he escaped without major injuries.[21][20] He graduated from flight school in 1960,[22] and became a naval pilot of attack aircraft.
McCain was then stationed in A-1 Skyraider squadrons[23] on the aircraft carriers USS Intrepid and USS Enterprise,[24] in the Caribbean Sea and in several deployments to the Mediterranean Sea.[21] He was on alert duty on Enterprise when it imposed a blockade and quarantine of Cuba during the October 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.[25][22] His aviation skills improved, but he had another close call when he and his plane emerged intact from a collision with power lines, after flying too low over Spain.[21] He was rotated back to shore duty, serving as a flight instructor at Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi, where McCain Field was named for his grandfather.[24]

These two, shot down twice, once by another naval aviator before getting off the deck.

WRL

03-01-2008, 07:39 AM

Romney, I'll leave it be. Well you can try and bash McCain's stellar war record over his engine stalling, but it's a losing battle. The man endured torture and gave only name rank and serial number. Speaks volumes about his 'honor'

The only thing holding down the party is sore losers attacking the nominee over trumped up bull. McCain has a lifetime rating of 83% from the ACU, so trying to call him 'not Conservative' just doesn't fly with the facts... He's shown an ability to break the partisan divide, that doesn't make him a liberal, that doesn't make him a threat, that makes him a serious asset this election cycle.

Dilloduck

03-01-2008, 08:35 AM

Romney, I'll leave it be. Well you can try and bash McCain's stellar war record over his engine stalling, but it's a losing battle. The man endured torture and gave only name rank and serial number. Speaks volumes about his 'honor'

The only thing holding down the party is sore losers attacking the nominee over trumped up bull. McCain has a lifetime rating of 83% from the ACU, so trying to call him 'not Conservative' just doesn't fly with the facts... He's shown an ability to break the partisan divide, that doesn't make him a liberal, that doesn't make him a threat, that makes him a serious asset this election cycle.

Breaking a partisan divide by caving in doesn't impress me.

theHawk

03-01-2008, 10:53 AM

His military record doesn't give him the right to be President. But I think it would be a good idea to have someone with a military record to be leading our miitary during our war on Islamic extremists. His long record of being on the Senate Arms committee and his support of the surge sets him ahead of just about anyone else when it comes to foreign policy and the war.

Although he fucked up royally with immigration and finance reform he has been conservative on the two most fundamental issues of abortion and low taxes his whole career.

The alternative is electing a rock star dimwit with same foreign policy intelligence and experience of a 2 year old.

Dilloduck

03-01-2008, 12:27 PM

avatar4321

03-01-2008, 02:46 PM

of course he is the electable Republican. He is the nominee. the other Republicans wont be placed on the ballot. What kind of stupid opening line is that!

Pale Rider

03-01-2008, 03:15 PM

WRL

03-01-2008, 04:57 PM

I don't think he is electable. He's out there saying now that he won't "pander" to the true conservatives... well guess what juan, you're not going to be President unless you do, and even then there's no guarantee, because there are those true conservatives out there like me that wouldn't vote for mclame come hell or high water.

The man can fuck off and die for all I care.

Juan, come on man, that smells like racism, and will only hurt the cause. McCain is the electable Republican because of the political environment we are in today. It's unfortunate, but he's the only chance to stop Democrats from controlling all three branches of government, and the chaos that would ensue, we have to reach for the middle, not the extremes and you need to realize having a real Conservative you may disagree with on one or two issues, is far better the the two Ultra Libs running for the Democrats. And for someone who's avatar is so pro 2nd Amendment, why are you in such a hurry to throw the race for the Democrats, oh I forgot he won't deport or execute all illegal immigrants, I assume you where a Tancredo fan, you see where that got him, McCain actually has a bipartisan solution that requires them to learn English, pay back taxes, pay a fine, and get at the back of the line. No one has proposed deporting all illegals, no one can, if you only lock down the borders you still leave a millions of people in-between. You still have a problem. Wake Up, before you wake up to President Hillery, or Obama.

What do you hope to achieve, you really think John McCain is going to come here to specifically kiss your ass? He has a lifetime rating of 83% from the American Conservative Union, the group that hosts CPAC, and is a REAL Conservative, lower taxes, limited Government, and a strong National Defense. The will be no firing squads for illegal immigrants, but Conservative principles will reign.

WRL

03-01-2008, 05:04 PM

Breaking a partisan divide by caving in doesn't impress me.

You have to realize how things work, one party cannot set and control the agenda today, unless certain people throw the race for Obama, and even then the Democrats have to break 60 votes in the Senate, you have to take idea's from both sides of the issue, and hammer out something a majority can agree on. The Republican President will more than likely continue to face a Democratic controlled Congress, so we need one with respect on both sides of the isle, to get anything done. Or you get what we've had since 06, a government that cannot even pass a budget till the 11th hour, Steroids in Baseball dominating the agenda in Congress when the dollar is at it's lowest level since the 70's. We have to return to sanity, we are all Americans and if we don't start working together, this country will collapse.

Sitarro

03-01-2008, 06:08 PM

McCain's idiocy, arrogance and lack of any business sense caused this country to hire a British/French/German company called Airbus to build a shitty plane for our Air Force. McCain caught a little graft (a few million if that much)between Boeing and the Air Force and was able to get his headlines but has now cost the taxpayers billions, thousands of jobs and business for one of the finest companies in the world. We are now going into business with one of the most dishonest companies in the world and an economic enemy of this country. Airbus sucks dick and their planes are inferior copies of Boeings. McCain may have served, he had no choice, look at his family tree........ but that was a very long time ago. He is a jerk that is only out for himself as always....... I'm sure he would make a lousy President but won't because he doesn't have the support of real conservatives.

WRL

03-01-2008, 06:12 PM

theHawk

03-01-2008, 06:16 PM

Who cares---everytime a pres tries to get something done he gets torpedoed. None of the candidates are worth a damn.

True, all the more reason we need to get some real conservatives at least in Congress.

Pale Rider

03-01-2008, 06:19 PM

Juan, come on man, that smells like racism, and will only hurt the cause.
So tell me mccain campaign plant number 2... what cause is that? Amnesty? And don't call me a racist, unless I've said something that specifically can be determined as racist. Just throwing buzz word names around is a liberal tactic, and not looked well upon.

McCain is the electable Republican because of the political environment we are in today. It's unfortunate, but he's the only chance to stop Democrats from controlling all three branches of government, and the chaos that would ensue, we have to reach for the middle, not the extremes and you need to realize having a real Conservative you may disagree with on one or two issues, is far better the the two Ultra Libs running for the Democrats. And for someone who's avatar is so pro 2nd Amendment, why are you in such a hurry to throw the race for the Democrats, oh I forgot he won't deport or execute all illegal immigrants, I assume you where a Tancredo fan, you see where that got him, McCain actually has a bipartisan solution that requires them to learn English, pay back taxes, pay a fine, and get at the back of the line. No one has proposed deporting all illegals, no one can, if you only lock down the borders you still leave a millions of people in-between. You still have a problem. Wake Up, before you wake up to President Hillery, or Obama.

What do you hope to achieve, you really think John McCain is going to come here to specifically kiss your ass? He has a lifetime rating of 83% from the American Conservative Union, the group that hosts CPAC, and is a REAL Conservative, lower taxes, limited Government, and a strong National Defense. The will be no firing squads for illegal immigrants, but Conservative principles will reign.
Here's the deal, don't blame ME because I'm a conservative and refuse to vote for the RINO mclame, and a dem wins the White House. I may not be voting for mclame, BUT I'M NOT VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT EITHER. So don't play that game with me. It doesn't wash. I will vote for who "I" want, just as "YOU" can vote for who "YOU" want.

Yes, I was pulling for Tancredo, and even donated on several occasions to his campaign. As I did for Hunter as well, and then Romney to follow.

Sitarro

03-01-2008, 06:28 PM

What how are you going to blame that on McCain that was the the Air Force outsourcing the building of our planes, and it upsets me. McCain exposed corruption in the process, a unrelated event that had nothing to do with the Air Forces decision to outsource the building of that aircraft.

McCain in his arrogant effort to score headlines missed the big picture. The Air Force didn't want Airbus garbage...... political interests bought that shit. The Air Force wants to have the best aircraft for the job, politicians, like McCain, make decisions for other reasons.

WRL

03-01-2008, 06:54 PM

McCain in his arrogant effort to score headlines missed the big picture. The Air Force didn't want Airbus garbage...... political interests bought that shit. The Air Force wants to have the best aircraft for the job, politicians, like McCain, make decisions for other reasons.

There is absolutely no factual evidence to back up your claim, McCain didn't negotiate the deal between the Air Force and airbus... He exposed corruption between an Air Force rep and Boeing, but that was awhile ago, and trying to tie this with that is one heck of a stretch...

retiredman

03-01-2008, 07:53 PM

Romney, I'll leave it be. Well you can try and bash McCain's stellar war record over his engine stalling, but it's a losing battle. The man endured torture and gave only name rank and serial number. Speaks volumes about his 'honor'

what a bullshitter you are willie!

McCain's own words:

"They wanted a statement saying that I was sorry for the crimes that I had committed against North Vietnamese people and that I was grateful for the treatment that I had received from them. This was the paradox -so many guys were so mistreated to get them to say they were grateful. But this is the Communist way.

I held out for four days. Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5+ years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope.

I said, O.K., I'll write for them.

They took me up into one of the interrogation rooms, and for the next 12 hours we wrote and rewrote. The North Vietnamese interrogator, who was pretty stupid, wrote the final confession, and I signed it. It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities. It was unacceptable to them. But I felt just terrible about it. I kept saying to myself, "Oh, God, I really didn't have any choice." I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."

http://www.aiipowmia.com/sea/mccainusnwr1974.html

WRL

03-01-2008, 09:41 PM

hum, that'd be interesting, I could swear I've herd otherwise, and looking around there are many differing versions of just what's in his book, oh well, guess it's off to Barnes and Noble...

WRL

03-01-2008, 10:06 PM

There are even versions going around saying he gave the Green bay Packers defensive line, so... I'm gonna get the book, and I'll post it here exactly what it says. Anyway it's translated, it's clearly apparent, if he did, he held out for 5+ years of some brutal torture, and days after a suicide attempt...

It should also be noted he was offered a trip home due to his fathers status and refused to follow the first in first out rule, saying not until everyone there before him was sent home, it is apparent he did hold out for 5 years of brutal torture, the torture he endured to this day keeps him from raising his hands above his head... Why would they keep torturing him if he gave in?

avatar4321

03-01-2008, 11:09 PM

True, all the more reason we need to get some real conservatives at least in Congress.

im working on that.

avatar4321

03-01-2008, 11:11 PM

hum, that'd be interesting, I could swear I've herd otherwise, and looking around there are many differing versions of just what's in his book, oh well, guess it's off to Barnes and Noble...

You know, most people actually bother researching their candidate, before they support them.

REDWHITEBLUE2

03-02-2008, 12:02 AM

although Ill be voting for Juan McLiberal Ill do so holding my nose because he stinks as a conservative

WRL

03-02-2008, 12:12 AM

From the American Conservative Union, host of CPAC

Senator John McCain: lifetime rating 83%

http://www.conservative.org/archive2/2008potus.asp

avatar4321

03-02-2008, 01:05 AM

From the American Conservative Union, host of CPAC

Senator John McCain: lifetime rating 83%

http://www.conservative.org/archive2/2008potus.asp

Good for him. Why should I care?

How about you provide his "Last 8 years rating". Probably because it would be much lower.

This is exactly why I don't let organizations or others tell me who I should or shouldnt support. That's why I make up my own mind after gathering the facts.

But the problem with facts is that people want to lie about them. I get it. You think John McCain is great. Well please excuse the rest of us who have watched him oppose every single major conservative issue we've had in the past 8 years. Republican lost congress specifically because of liberal Republicans like McCain. We voted Republicans in to advance the conservative agenda, but perhaps a dozen of them, lead by Senator McCain, have sabatoged every major issue we had.

So if you think we are going to just forget what he has done because some organization with the name conservative in it has said he was conservative, forget it.

Some of us may still vote for McCain over the even worse Democrat choices. But don't for a second try to pretend we should blindly follow him like lemmings pretending he is a conservative.

Being more liberal I can handle, its the dishonesty that I have a problem with. That's always been my problem with McCain.

Pale Rider

03-02-2008, 02:13 AM

WRL

03-03-2008, 04:50 AM

Good for him. Why should I care?

How about you provide his "Last 8 years rating". Probably because it would be much lower.

This is exactly why I don't let organizations or others tell me who I should or shouldnt support. That's why I make up my own mind after gathering the facts.

But the problem with facts is that people want to lie about them. I get it. You think John McCain is great. Well please excuse the rest of us who have watched him oppose every single major conservative issue we've had in the past 8 years. Republican lost congress specifically because of liberal Republicans like McCain. We voted Republicans in to advance the conservative agenda, but perhaps a dozen of them, lead by Senator McCain, have sabatoged every major issue we had.

So if you think we are going to just forget what he has done because some organization with the name conservative in it has said he was conservative, forget it.

Some of us may still vote for McCain over the even worse Democrat choices. But don't for a second try to pretend we should blindly follow him like lemmings pretending he is a conservative.

Being more liberal I can handle, its the dishonesty that I have a problem with. That's always been my problem with McCain.

The last eight years, like when he was able to get Bush Judicial nominees approved, he push for the successful surge, his promise to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. His record is solid. His lifetime rating is 83% from the largest Conservative PAC in the country.

This is absolutely backwards we lost because we lost our way on spending and McCain is the only one who remained principled as so many fake Conservatives lost their soul, on earmarks, something McCain fought hard against, spending in general, we lost our way, McCain was fighting this. McCain was the one who stood firm on the principles of lower taxes, he's supported many tax cuts, since the Reagan tax cuts, to even the Bush tax cuts he opposed, yet still offered a tax cut package himself. Limited Government, like when he wrote legislation to require a super-majority to raise our taxes. And a strong national Defense, McCain strongest suit.

stephanie

03-03-2008, 06:02 AM

From the American Conservative Union, host of CPAC

Senator John McCain: lifetime rating 83%

http://www.conservative.org/archive2/2008potus.asp

So......let him win with those moderates and liberals voters, he doesn't need the conservatives anyway.......That's what I keep hearing in article after article....and from the t.v. pundits....

He's got it so locked up, he wouldn't have paid stooges running around every board on the Internet, making his case for him, If people really felt he was A CONSERVATIVE they wouldn't need to KEEP pointing it out to conservatives and Republicans that he is supposedly a conservative.......
.He WAS A CONSERVATIVE until the last eight yrs...then McCain has sold his soul just like the rest of them............:laugh2:

PostmodernProphet

03-03-2008, 06:13 AM

its the dishonesty that I have a problem with.

same problem I have with the McCain bashers......

That is a LIE...
He is down to 65% with the ACU...

no, it's not a lie....his lifetime rating is still 83....I expect his current rating is down because some shagbrained ACU members from the extreme right gave him 1's......

PostmodernProphet

03-03-2008, 06:17 AM

Republican lost congress specifically because of liberal Republicans like McCain.

oh yeah....Republicans lost congress because Republicans in Congress were acting like liberals.....they couldn't spend money fast enough.....and who was the lone Republican criticizing them for it?.....McCain.....the one you are blaming for it......what did you do with your brains?.......

stephanie

03-03-2008, 06:25 AM

Just start getting used to saying........

President Clinton or President Obambam...

Then hope we make it for the next four yrs....:laugh2:

avatar4321

03-03-2008, 07:53 AM

oh yeah....Republicans lost congress because Republicans in Congress were acting like liberals.....they couldn't spend money fast enough.....and who was the lone Republican criticizing them for it?.....McCain.....the one you are blaming for it......what did you do with your brains?.......

you're joking right? McCain was their leaders! He was the one leading compromise on all the conservative issues.

PostmodernProphet

03-03-2008, 08:12 AM

you're joking right?

no I'm not joking....are you denying that what I posted is true?....

retiredman

03-03-2008, 08:34 AM

you're joking right? McCain was their leaders! He was the one leading compromise on all the conservative issues.

except for fiscal issues...

JohnDoe

03-03-2008, 08:55 AM

right, except for fiscal issues, then he went against the administration and repubs....and dems!

PostmodernProphet

03-03-2008, 09:37 AM

the only "conservative" issue he didn't follow along with was immigration....and there, HE was the one to follow conservative principles, not the no "amesty" crowd....that's why he's the Republican nominee and not one of the flock of no-amnesty candidates.....

WRL

03-04-2008, 08:20 AM

So......let him win with those moderates and liberals voters, he doesn't need the conservatives anyway.......That's what I keep hearing in article after article....and from the t.v. pundits....

He's got it so locked up, he wouldn't have paid stooges running around every board on the Internet, making his case for him, If people really felt he was A CONSERVATIVE they wouldn't need to KEEP pointing it out to conservatives and Republicans that he is supposedly a conservative.......
.He WAS A CONSERVATIVE until the last eight yrs...then McCain has sold his soul just like the rest of them............:laugh2:

No this is a mischaracterization, McCain has solid ratings from many Conservative groups. He also has a great strength in the General election, that is his ability to say I've got the record of bringing bi-partisan change, to break the partisan divide in Washington, and will be able to more than just talk about 'change', where as Obama, can claim 'change' but look at the facts, he just doesn't have the experience to back it up.

We send people to Washington to get things done, and yes that requires compromises with the other side, that doesn't make him a sell out, that makes him unique. The fact he can tout being able to break the partisan divide and still maintain an 83% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union, should put most at ease.

McCain has the ability to use the record he's stood strong on that Conservatives can call their own, lower taxes, limited government, and a strong national defense, or like when he was able to get Bush's Judicial nominees approved, he push for the successful surge, his promise to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. McCain has the ability to reach those in the middle, those key votes that will decide this election. A firebrand fringe canidate would lose in this environment. John McCain can win.

retiredman

03-04-2008, 09:23 AM

it will be a tough row to hoe with Dubya hanging around his neck like an albatross!

WRL

03-04-2008, 09:32 AM

Well Bush isn't on the ticket, and McCain hasn't exactly been a lock step Bushie. Flimsy at best, sorry.

retiredman

03-04-2008, 09:52 AM

Well Bush isn't on the ticket, and McCain hasn't exactly been a lock step Bushie. Flimsy at best, sorry.

on the major issues that matter to Americans, McCain has been loyal to Bush. We'll make sure that the electorate remembers that.:lol:

WRL

03-05-2008, 02:55 AM

on the major issues that matter to Americans, McCain has been loyal to Bush. We'll make sure that the electorate remembers that.:lol:

Right after you mention he voted against the Bush tax cuts?

retiredman

03-05-2008, 07:08 AM

Right after you mention he voted against the Bush tax cuts?

the ones he now wants to make permanent? sure.

opportunistic flip flopper.

WRL

03-05-2008, 10:35 AM

he wants to make them permanent now, because they have been on the books for so long, to repeal them would amount to a tax hike at this point. Also for honesty's sake, when he opposed the Bush Tax Cuts, he offered a tax cut package of his own to counter, so calling him 'anti tax cuts' on that issue, is just a simple, naive argument. He as a long record of cutting taxes, writing legislation to make it harder for Congress to raise our taxes, buy requiring a super majority just to do so, and a staunch opposer of 'pork' or wasteful spending. We are 9 trillion in debt, and we need to balance the budget, and some serious overhaul is needed.

retiredman

03-05-2008, 10:44 AM

he voted against them before he voted for them....
hmmmm where have I heard that before?:laugh2:

WRL

03-06-2008, 06:29 AM

he voted against them before he voted for them....
hmmmm where have I heard that before?:laugh2:

Give me a break, he even offered a tax cut package of his own at the time, so he certainly didn't flip flop on tax cuts.

Now how about that sweeping victory by McCain? Man ran a respectful campaign, on the issues, and won. Good day for principled Conservatives, lower taxes, limited government, and a strong national defense, is on the ticket!

retiredman

03-06-2008, 06:50 AM

Give me a break, he even offered a tax cut package of his own at the time, so he certainly didn't flip flop on tax cuts.

Now how about that sweeping victory by McCain? Man ran a respectful campaign, on the issues, and won. Good day for principled Conservatives, lower taxes, limited government, and a strong national defense, is on the ticket!

great deay for illegal immigration too, eh?

WRL

03-06-2008, 08:23 AM

Depends on Congress to be honest... Presidents don't have much authority on border policy.

PostmodernProphet

03-06-2008, 09:13 AM

great deay for illegal immigration too, eh?

I would say yes.....we have a far better chance of coming up with a program that allows LEGAL immigration and eliminates the illegal immigration problem than with any other nominee......

WRL

03-06-2008, 09:18 AM

I would say yes.....we have a far better chance of coming up with a program that allows LEGAL immigration and eliminates the illegal immigration problem than with any other nominee......

Agreed, through rational compromise, we can seal up our border, get them speaking English, remove the shadow society, the human smuggling, collect taxes. I think we can reach a deal where immigrants come here on their own two feet like my Irish Ancestors did, not by some human smuggling gang. We start throwing racial bombs not only do we lose the debate, we lose relevance, as does Conservative values.

Pale Rider

03-06-2008, 04:09 PM

Agreed, through rational compromise, we can seal up our border, get them speaking English, remove the shadow society, the human smuggling, collect taxes. I think we can reach a deal where immigrants come here on their own two feet like my Irish Ancestors did, not by some human smuggling gang. We start throwing racial bombs not only do we lose the debate, we lose relevance, as does Conservative values.

Yeeeeaaaaahhh sure.... lets just fling the ole doors wide open and give all the criminals carte blanche.... terrorists and all. No back ground checks, no physicals, no problem... step right up and get your green card, welfare, free school, social security... and say FUCK OFF to anybody that objects. It's none of their god damn business if we slide 23 million illegal aliens into America and bankrupt our economy in the process.

You people are fucking insane... :talk2hand:

mccain is an open borders piece of shit traitor... he ought to be tarred and feathered for trying to sell out American sovereignty.

The Reverend

03-06-2008, 07:06 PM

Yeeeeaaaaahhh sure.... lets just fling the ole doors wide open and give all the criminals carte blanche.... terrorists and all. No back ground checks, no physicals, no problem... step right up and get your green card, welfare, free school, social security... and say FUCK OFF to anybody that objects. It's none of their god damn business if we slide 23 million illegal aliens into America and bankrupt our economy in the process.

You people are fucking insane... :talk2hand:

mccain is an open borders piece of shit traitor... he ought to be tarred and feathered for trying to sell out American sovereignty.

Apparently you did not read the full bill did you? Be honest now, did you or did you not read the bill?

Well I did, and in it there were background checks for illegals, it made speaking English a requirement, it increased the fines for employers that hired illegals, it required them to pay fines IF they passed the background checks, if they failed then they were sent home, it required immigrants to be in their home country when they apply for their green card, it also would have ended chain migration, it would have increased enforcement of the United States-Mexico border, including increasing the number of border patrol agents to 20,000 and adding another 370 miles of fencing, among others, and last but not least Under the terms of the bill, no further part of the bill would have gone forward until these measures had been implemented.

Pale Rider

03-07-2008, 01:39 PM

Apparently you did not read the full bill did you? Be honest now, did you or did you not read the bill?

Well I did, and in it there were background checks for illegals, it made speaking English a requirement, it increased the fines for employers that hired illegals, it required them to pay fines IF they passed the background checks, if they failed then they were sent home, it required immigrants to be in their home country when they apply for their green card, it also would have ended chain migration, it would have increased enforcement of the United States-Mexico border, including increasing the number of border patrol agents to 20,000 and adding another 370 miles of fencing, among others, and last but not least Under the terms of the bill, no further part of the bill would have gone forward until these measures had been implemented.

Well Rev... "apparently" you've been "ass"uming quite a bit lately, and it's getting old. You said we got off to a bad start, but you're conscending smart ass hangs on as if you want to keep it that way. You just a born smart ass or are you working at it? Either way, it's usually a reflection on ones life, so, if you're life sucks, well, I can't do anything about that. But, I can help get you educated, so here ya go, start reading, and don't stop until you understand that the mccain/kennedy bill WAS amnesty. It's very well explained and articulated in this in depth article. You shouldn't have any questions when you're done...

AMNESTY TO ALL, AND THEN SOME...

http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/McKennedyTwelveMillionServed072005.pdf

retiredman

03-07-2008, 02:17 PM

Well Rev... "apparently" you've been "ass"uming quite a bit lately, and it's getting old. You said we got off to a bad start, but you're conscending smart ass hangs on as if you want to keep it that way. You just a born smart ass or are you working at it? Either way, it's usually a reflection on ones life, so, if you're life sucks, well, I can't do anything about that. But, I can help get you educated, so here ya go, start reading, and don't stop until you understand that the mccain/kennedy bill WAS amnesty. It's very well explained and articulated in this in depth article. You shouldn't have any questions when you're done...

AMNESTY TO ALL, AND THEN SOME...

http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/McKennedyTwelveMillionServed072005.pdf

reading an editorial ABOUT the bill is not the same as reading the bill, however.

Pale Rider

03-07-2008, 02:40 PM

reading an editorial ABOUT the bill is not the same as reading the bill, however.

This editorial is factual correct and contains many specifics.

retiredman

03-07-2008, 05:35 PM

This editorial is factual correct and contains many specifics.

it is not the same as reading the bill, however, is it?

The Reverend

03-07-2008, 06:25 PM

This editorial is factual correct and contains many specifics.

Actually whaile the editorial has facts in it is is not factual. It distorts some facts and completely leaves others out.

And my assumption was right you have not read the bill.

As for being a smart ass fine if that is what you want to call someone that points out the truth. As for condesending try looking at you own posts for that.

BTW it is CONDESENDING not CONSCENDING. Try spell check.

Well Rev... "apparently" you've been "ass"uming quite a bit lately, and it's getting old. You said we got off to a bad start, but you're conscending smart ass hangs on as if you want to keep it that way. You just a born smart ass or are you working at it? Either way, it's usually a reflection on ones life, so, if you're life sucks, well, I can't do anything about that. But, I can help get you educated, so here ya go, start reading, and don't stop until you understand that the mccain/kennedy bill WAS amnesty. It's very well explained and articulated in this in depth article. You shouldn't have any questions when you're done...

AMNESTY TO ALL, AND THEN SOME...

As for you educating me, not likely unless you are willing to deal with some facts and truths instead of lies.

My life is just fine, usually is for one that researches things for himself instead of relying on others to do his work.

The Reverend

03-07-2008, 07:17 PM

Must point out that I was in error it is CONDECENDING. I really don't care if someone spells something incorrectly. My point was that Palerider two or three times pointed out my spelling flaws.
Thanks manfrommaine for pointing out to me that I was wrong.

retiredman

03-07-2008, 07:31 PM

S before the C ;)

Kathianne

03-07-2008, 07:33 PM

S before the C ;)

Thank you, I thought I was losing something. :lol:

The Reverend

03-07-2008, 09:28 PM

Yeah my problem is a cross between trying to go to fast and being new to using the smaller keyboard of a laptop.

WRL

03-08-2008, 09:52 PM

Yeeeeaaaaahhh sure.... lets just fling the ole doors wide open and give all the criminals carte blanche.... terrorists and all. No back ground checks, no physicals, no problem... step right up and get your green card, welfare, free school, social security... and say FUCK OFF to anybody that objects. It's none of their god damn business if we slide 23 million illegal aliens into America and bankrupt our economy in the process.

You people are fucking insane... :talk2hand:

mccain is an open borders piece of shit traitor... he ought to be tarred and feathered for trying to sell out American sovereignty.

Now you're just mischaracterizing the bill. It certainly wasn't 'carte blache' it required background checks, paying back taxes, paying a fine, learning English. You're characterization of the bill as a partisan whack at particular groups isn't accurate either, it was done with as much bi-partisan care as possible, in the end however racist sounding rhetoric dominated the debate, and these people will never vote Republican again...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/144567470_c36dc0f3dc_o.jpg

Now these people are Conservative in nature, majority Catholic, and now anti GOP. Republicans need to be clear, that we want our borders secure, but not because we are racists, but because it promotes the order that drives our society, it's a fact our ancestors had to 'earn' citizenship so should everyone else. And anyone who's willing to put in the effort to become American, and the bill was no cake walk, can become one. It's a message of hope, not hate.

Pale Rider

03-09-2008, 03:28 AM

Now you're just mischaracterizing the bill. It certainly wasn't 'carte blache' it required background checks, paying back taxes, paying a fine, learning English. You're characterization of the bill as a partisan whack at particular groups isn't accurate either, it was done with as much bi-partisan care as possible, in the end however racist sounding rhetoric dominated the debate, and these people will never vote Republican again...

Now these people are Conservative in nature, majority Catholic, and now anti GOP. Republicans need to be clear, that we want our borders secure, but not because we are racists, but because it promotes the order that drives our society, it's a fact our ancestors had to 'earn' citizenship so should everyone else. And anyone who's willing to put in the effort to become American, and the bill was no cake walk, can become one. It's a message of hope, not hate.

Why in the hell should I or any other "LEGAL" American citizen be concerned whether or not 20 million "ILLEGAL ALIENS" like the GOP or not? They can't vote, and they shouldn't be here in this country anyway. They NEED to be DEPORTED.

And you throwing around the word "racist" just because 85% of all Americans want the illegals gone is just as worn out now as it was a year ago. There's NOTHING racist about wanting the immigration laws of your own country to be enforced... NOTHING! Pulling out the racist word is like calling a black man "cracker." It just doesn't fit. It's being used completely out of context, and you sir, sound like a broken record parroting it over and over hoping it will instill guilt in people that don't deserve it. Thankfully, most here are on to such "LIBERAL" tactics. If you don't like the message, attack the messenger. A classic liberal scheme, and you're employing it. Cats out of the bag however, and continued use at this point will only result in making you sound like a liberal moron.

stephanie

03-09-2008, 03:36 AM

Now you're just mischaracterizing the bill. It certainly wasn't 'carte blache' it required background checks, paying back taxes, paying a fine, learning English. You're characterization of the bill as a partisan whack at particular groups isn't accurate either, it was done with as much bi-partisan care as possible, in the end however racist sounding rhetoric dominated the debate, and these people will never vote Republican again...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/144567470_c36dc0f3dc_o.jpg

Now these people are Conservative in nature, majority Catholic, and now anti GOP. Republicans need to be clear, that we want our borders secure, but not because we are racists, but because it promotes the order that drives our society, it's a fact our ancestors had to 'earn' citizenship so should everyone else. And anyone who's willing to put in the effort to become American, and the bill was no cake walk, can become one. It's a message of hope, not hate.

And you don't see anything WRONG WITH THIS INVASION..........this is not just an invasion from LATINOS........we are allowing terrorist from every nation into our country, and it's us legal citizens of the United States who is paying for them to come here..??

We used to have a legal way to come here........now all you have to do is sneak across our borders come one, come all...........ILLEGAL OR NOT........THOSE STUPID AMERICANOS WILL PAY YOUR WAY.........

nevadamedic

03-09-2008, 08:26 AM

Now you're just mischaracterizing the bill. It certainly wasn't 'carte blache' it required background checks, paying back taxes, paying a fine, learning English. You're characterization of the bill as a partisan whack at particular groups isn't accurate either, it was done with as much bi-partisan care as possible, in the end however racist sounding rhetoric dominated the debate, and these people will never vote Republican again...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/144567470_c36dc0f3dc_o.jpg

Now these people are Conservative in nature, majority Catholic, and now anti GOP. Republicans need to be clear, that we want our borders secure, but not because we are racists, but because it promotes the order that drives our society, it's a fact our ancestors had to 'earn' citizenship so should everyone else. And anyone who's willing to put in the effort to become American, and the bill was no cake walk, can become one. It's a message of hope, not hate.

Actually this is the one issue I do agree Senator McCain needs work. Granted the only reason he became a part of this bill is because he saw a complete hosing coming from Kennedy and his goons and he figured he would have to get some good things put in this bill so we wouldn't get hosed so bad, unfortunatly the bill is crap.

These people need to all be deported, period. If people from Mexico or any other country want to come to this one then fine so be it, just do it the legal way. The ones who are caught in this country illegally should be automatically denied citizenship for the rest of their life. These people show that they have no respect for the law and that they only care about themselves by breaking our laws by coming here. Then over 90% continue to break the law once their here by smuggling or dealing drugs, gang activity, identity theft, regular larceny theft, rape and murder.

82Marine89

03-09-2008, 10:09 AM

Actually this is the one issue I do agree Senator McCain needs work. Granted the only reason he became a part of this bill is because he saw a complete hosing coming from Kennedy and his goons and he figured he would have to get some good things put in this bill so we wouldn't get hosed so bad, unfortunatly the bill is crap.

Yet he was still going to allow this great Nation to be screwed? Fuck him.

These people need to all be deported, period. If people from Mexico or any other country want to come to this one then fine so be it, just do it the legal way. The ones who are caught in this country illegally should be automatically denied citizenship for the rest of their life. These people show that they have no respect for the law and that they only care about themselves by breaking our laws by coming here. Then over 90% continue to break the law once their here by smuggling or dealing drugs, gang activity, identity theft, regular larceny theft, rape and murder.

Must be snowing in Hell.

WRL

03-10-2008, 11:16 PM

Why in the hell should I or any other "LEGAL" American citizen be concerned whether or not 20 million "ILLEGAL ALIENS" like the GOP or not? They can't vote, and they shouldn't be here in this country anyway. They NEED to be DEPORTED.

And you throwing around the word "racist" just because 85% of all Americans want the illegals gone is just as worn out now as it was a year ago. There's NOTHING racist about wanting the immigration laws of your own country to be enforced... NOTHING! Pulling out the racist word is like calling a black man "cracker." It just doesn't fit. It's being used completely out of context, and you sir, sound like a broken record parroting it over and over hoping it will instill guilt in people that don't deserve it. Thankfully, most here are on to such "LIBERAL" tactics. If you don't like the message, attack the messenger. A classic liberal scheme, and you're employing it. Cats out of the bag however, and continued use at this point will only result in making you sound like a liberal moron.

This just goes to show how little you know of the problem, most of those people where not illegal, just enraged by the racist rhetoric you can see in this thread. We're talking about a large part of the electorate, and sounding racist about solving the problem won't do anything but put people who may agree with you, in a position to do little, but on such a controversial issue, you have to have some kind of bipartisan compromise, or nothing will get done. I agree with you, to a certain extent, there is a problem, and it needs fixing, but you have to understand theirs a way to go about solving a problem, and their's a way to shoot yourself in the foot. Requiring English to be learned, returning home, paying a fine, getting at the back of the line wasn't a bad compromise, I can assure you anything coming out of a Democratic controlled Congress is going to be ten times worse, so congratulations nothing has been done, and more than likely, you'll, we'll wind up with legislation that really will be amnesty.

WRL

03-10-2008, 11:54 PM

And you don't see anything WRONG WITH THIS INVASION..........this is not just an invasion from LATINOS........we are allowing terrorist from every nation into our country, and it's us legal citizens of the United States who is paying for them to come here..??

We used to have a legal way to come here........now all you have to do is sneak across our borders come one, come all...........ILLEGAL OR NOT........THOSE STUPID AMERICANOS WILL PAY YOUR WAY.........

I'm not saying illegal immigration isn't a problem, I'm just acknowledging reality in solving this problem, and a lot of people here let their outrage get the better of them, using rhetoric like INVASION, sunk the best bill you'll see on illegal immigration, sort of Republicans winning both chambers of Congress, and what you'll wind up with is ten times worse. Yes there is a problem, but there is a correct way to solve a problem and flame throwing that solves nothing.

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 09:05 AM

I'm not saying illegal immigration isn't a problem, I'm just acknowledging reality in solving this problem, and a lot of people here let their outrage get the better of them, using rhetoric like INVASION, sunk the best bill you'll see on illegal immigration, sort of Republicans winning both chambers of Congress, and what you'll wind up with is ten times worse. Yes there is a problem, but there is a correct way to solve a problem and flame throwing that solves nothing.

Thing is, your opinion is the minority opinion. The vast majority of people do NOT want 20 million illegal aliens to be rewarded for illegally entering this great nation with amnesty, and that is what juan mccain wanted to do, and it's also why the mccain/kennedy bill was shot down.

And the word "invasion" is far from "rhetoric." The fact of the matter is, it is an invasion, of Biblical and epic proportions, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

PostmodernProphet

03-11-2008, 12:47 PM

Thing is, your opinion is the minority opinion.

Pale, it is time for you to come to grips with something.....that opinion is certainly the opinion of those supporting the Democratic candidates, which is something just shy of 50% of Americans.....it is also the opinion of those who selected McCain as the Republican nominee, which adds close to another 50% of Americans....and then you have those who agree with you.....which has to be something shy of 10% of Americans....so how on earth do you claim that it's the MINORITY opinion?......

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 02:00 PM

Pale, it is time for you to come to grips with something.....that opinion is certainly the opinion of those supporting the Democratic candidates, which is something just shy of 50% of Americans.....it is also the opinion of those who selected McCain as the Republican nominee, which adds close to another 50% of Americans....and then you have those who agree with you.....which has to be something shy of 10% of Americans....so how on earth do you claim that it's the MINORITY opinion?......

You ask that as you purport your opinion as fact?

Now, on to the truth... where you can freshen yourself up on the facts, that more accurately reflect what I have said, not you...

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/pulsepoll0507.html

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/publicop.html

PostmodernProphet

03-11-2008, 02:12 PM

freshen yourself up on the facts

**cough**

May 15, 2007

shucks, back then there were even folks who still thought Duncan Hunter might get votes.....

besides, nobody is arguing about illegal aliens....the issue is granting them legal status.....

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 02:28 PM

**cough**
Did someone say, "turn your head and cough?" :laugh:

shucks, back then there were even folks who still thought Duncan Hunter might get votes.....

besides, nobody is arguing about illegal aliens....the issue is granting them legal status.....
That was pretty much covered in the links I provided... which clearly and overwhelmingly shows the vast majority of Americans are against giving illegal aliens amnesty... just like I said.

PostmodernProphet

03-11-2008, 03:04 PM

That was pretty much covered in the links I provided... which clearly and overwhelmingly shows the vast majority of Americans are against giving illegal aliens amnesty... just like I said.

I think you mean the links showed that once upon a time, before anyone was faced with the reality of voting a majority of people were against amnesty....as I have already pointed out, since then a majority of people have either voted McCain, who as you love to point out, is the candidate who did NOT preach against amnesty, or for the Democrats....the candidates who made a big issue against amnesty didn't get any votes....like your man, Hunter.....

since they didn't get any votes isn't it a bit silly to pretend a majority of people agree with you on amnesty?

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 03:15 PM

I think you mean the links showed that once upon a time, before anyone was faced with the reality of voting a majority of people were against amnesty....as I have already pointed out, since then a majority of people have either voted McCain, who as you love to point out, is the candidate who did NOT preach against amnesty, or for the Democrats....the candidates who made a big issue against amnesty didn't get any votes....like your man, Hunter.....

since they didn't get any votes isn't it a bit silly to pretend a majority of people agree with you on amnesty?

Thing is, the conservatives who were the people that did vote for Tancredo/Hunter/Romney/Thompson/Paul, were so split up between all of them that mcamnesty was able to slither by. Had mcamnesty been one against one, head to head against any one of them, I believe he would have lost, big time, and you wouldn't be able to make this silly argument with no more logic or truth than mcamnesty being the nominee. He slimed his way in on his belly through the back door.

PostmodernProphet

03-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Thing is, the conservatives who were the people that did vote for Tancredo/Hunter/Romney/Thompson/Paul
oh give it a rest, Pale....Tancredo and Hunter didn't come up with 1% of the vote between them.....and no Republicans voted for Paul, that was just a liberal act to embarrass conservatives......neither Romney or Hucklebee, who DID get votes made a big deal about amnesty......

5stringJeff

03-11-2008, 03:27 PM

and no Republicans voted for Paul, that was just a liberal act to embarrass conservatives

Que? Ron Paul took second place in two GOP primaries, and continues to hold a seat in Congress, where he is elected as a Republican. The fact that he is also supported by Libertarians doesn't mean that "no Republicans voted for him."

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 05:00 PM

oh give it a rest, Pale....Tancredo and Hunter didn't come up with 1% of the vote between them.....and no Republicans voted for Paul, that was just a liberal act to embarrass conservatives......neither Romney or Hucklebee, who DID get votes made a big deal about amnesty......

Aaaahh... yes they did. Huckabee signed a pledge that said he would NOT grant amnesty to one single illegal alien....

Here is the pledge:

I pledge to oppose amnesty or any other special path to citizenship for the millions of foreign nationals unlawfully present in the United States. As President, I will fully implement enforcement measures that, over time, will lead to the attrition of our illegal immigrant population. I also pledge to make security of our borders a top priority of my administration.

We allow candidates to take our suggested language on the pledge and mold it to their own style but subject to our approval.

Before accepting this pledge, I emailed the following assumptions contained in the pledge to which Huckabee would have to agree. Staff responded that they were accepted. I then met with Huckabee today to ensure that we were both on the same page and to shake hands on the following agreement:

Governor Huckabee understands his pledge to mean that:

1. The 12 million illegal aliens now here will have to go home.

2. They will not get any legal status while here that allows them to remain long-term.

3. Once in their home countries, they may apply for re-admittance to the U.S. as immigrants, visitors or temporary workers through normal channels.

4. But they will not receive any special privileges on the basis of their having been in the U.S. illegally, such as being put to the front of a line.

5. There will be no new categories or programs through which they may re-enter.

6. There will not be an expansion of green cards in any existing categories that will speed up their movement to the front of the line.

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/huckabeepledge011608.html

... and Romney made it a big deal in two different debates, which I watched myself, perhaps you didn't, where he confronted mcamnesty on why he didn't think letting 20 million illegal aliens remain in America was amnesty. He never got a straight answer by the way from mister, so called, straight talk.

Fact of the matter is mcamnesty's rating on illegal aliens is abysmal. Always has been and still is, and the only reason he's where he's at is because the conservative vote was so split. You can argue different PmP, but it's just hot air and everybody knows it.

WRL

03-11-2008, 05:17 PM

You ask that as you purport your opinion as fact?

Now, on to the truth... where you can freshen yourself up on the facts, that more accurately reflect what I have said, not you...

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/pulsepoll0507.html

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/publicop.html

I've never even herd of this polling company and the questions are clearly loaded... But I'm sure a majority recognize a problem, but they don't have the same solution as you, that's where you are in the minority, and how many times do I have to say, requiring English to be learned, returning home, paying a fine, getting at the back of the line isn't Amnesty...

Pale Rider

03-11-2008, 06:25 PM

I've never even herd of this polling company and the questions are clearly loaded... But I'm sure a majority recognize a problem, but they don't have the same solution as you, that's where you are in the minority, and how many times do I have to say, requiring English to be learned, returning home, paying a fine, getting at the back of the line isn't Amnesty...

You've been living under a rock if you've never heard of NumbersUSA. It's only the biggest anti amnesty website on the net. They have over 33 million subscribers.

And if you're an illegal alien and you can remain in this country forever, because there's no real reason for you to leave when you can indefinitely renew your Z visa, yes, 'fraid so, that is amnesty. It can only be amnesty if the illegal is "required" to leave, period, no exceptions, and that WRL, IS the opinion of the majority.

PostmodernProphet

03-11-2008, 07:31 PM

It's only the biggest anti amnesty website on the net.

lol......

It can only be amnesty if the illegal is "required" to leave

confusion continues it's reign in the mind of Pale.....Pale, do you think perhaps it might be amnesty if the illegal is allowed to stay as well?.....

The Reverend

03-11-2008, 08:24 PM

And if you're an illegal alien and you can remain in this country forever, because there's no real reason for you to leave when you can indefinitely renew your Z visa, yes, 'fraid so, that is amnesty. It can only be amnesty if the illegal is "required" to leave, period, no exceptions, and that WRL, IS the opinion of the majority.

The Z visa comes with a fine of $5,000 per person, and the individual must return to their home country to legally be admitted into the United States. Families of undocumented workers will only have to send home one person; the head of the family. The time lag between the issuance of the Z visa and the return trip may be as long as two years, which means that the undocumented worker will be able to legally work in the United States until her or she must leave the country to stay in compliance with the Z visa rules. However, the amount of years that must be spent out of the country may be more than 5 years before the individual can legally return. The amount of Z visas that will be allowed per year is much larger than any other visa program and may be as many as 500,000 per year.
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/visa_z.html

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 02:09 AM

The Z visa comes with a fine of $5,000 per person, and the individual must return to their home country to legally be admitted into the United States.

The fact of the matter is rev, why would twenty million illegals want to leave when they're already here and no one is kicking them out? If they can keep renewing a Z visa, but never become a "legal" American, they'll do it, because they do not want to leave. Why should they? They get free medical at hospital emergency rooms, they don't have to pay taxes, they get free schooling for their kids, free this, free that, why on earth do you think 100% of all illegals are going to happily hop, skip and jump on down to the border and go back home? They have no reason to. They can stay right here and keep renewing their visa or just remain illegal and actually get a better deal. They have no need or want to become "legal." Hell then they'll have to pay taxes, and why would they want to do that? Lose money? I don't think so. The mccain/kennedy amnesty bill was an absolute abomination, and polls at the time were in the 90% range of people that wanted it shot down. Those people haven't changed their minds either. Amnesty is not the answer to the illegals. Deportation is, whether by drying up the jobs, building the fence, or self deportation, the only true way to deal with them is for them to go. No one should be illegally allowed into this country only for the us to bend over and reward them for it.

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 02:17 AM

confusion continues it's reign in the mind of Pale.....Pale, do you think perhaps it might be amnesty if the illegal is allowed to stay as well?.....

Even though I know damn well you knew what I meant, as did everyone else, is that all you have to do? Is nit picking my posts all you're capable of? You're trolling PmP... it's really getting obvious.

The Reverend

03-12-2008, 05:34 AM

The fact of the matter is rev, why would twenty million illegals want to leave when they're already here and no one is kicking them out? If they can keep renewing a Z visa, but never become a "legal" American, they'll do it, because they do not want to leave. Why should they? They get free medical at hospital emergency rooms, they don't have to pay taxes, they get free schooling for their kids, free this, free that, why on earth do you think 100% of all illegals are going to happily hop, skip and jump on down to the border and go back home? They have no reason to. They can stay right here and keep renewing their visa or just remain illegal and actually get a better deal. They have no need or want to become "legal." Hell then they'll have to pay taxes, and why would they want to do that? Lose money? I don't think so. The mccain/kennedy amnesty bill was an absolute abomination, and polls at the time were in the 90% range of people that wanted it shot down. Those people haven't changed their minds either. Amnesty is not the answer to the illegals. Deportation is, whether by drying up the jobs, building the fence, or self deportation, the only true way to deal with them is for them to go. No one should be illegally allowed into this country only for the us to bend over and reward them for it.
Ok, fine but how do you propose we deport 12-20 million people?
They are not going to self deport, and as long as they keep working for lower wages businesses are not going to fry up for them.
The fence is being built, 200 or so miles already. It is just taking and entremely long time.

But you are right, the bill did not pass for one reason or the other. McCain said he learned from that what the American people wanted and because of the changed his position to a security only position.
I believe him, he does not have a record of lying, when he says he is doing something he does it.

PostmodernProphet

03-12-2008, 05:37 AM

Even though I know damn well you knew what I meant, as did everyone else, is that all you have to do? Is nit picking my posts all you're capable of?

demonstrating that you have no clue what you are talking about is my new purpose in life.......the alternative is that some poor reader who needs to decide how or even whether to vote this fall, might make the mistake of taking your comments seriously........

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 12:55 PM

Ok, fine but how do you propose we deport 12-20 million people?
They are not going to self deport, and as long as they keep working for lower wages businesses are not going to fry up for them.
The fence is being built, 200 or so miles already. It is just taking and entremely long time.
Well... I think it's pretty obvious we can't deport them all. America just doesn't have the back bone for it. I believe we could if we wanted to. I just don't believe we want to. I hate to admit defeat and say we can't do something before we've even made an effort. That just isn't the American way to me. But, I do believe that if we dry up the jobs, many will self deport. They got here, they can also get back. No jobs for illegals, no reason to come here or be here.
And the fence, there hasn't been much more than 12 miles of that built Rev. Congress stole the money from the project, and on top of that, they were building it with Chinese steal, and that caused a huge uproar. 200 miles.... nope, no way. Bad info there.

But you are right, the bill did not pass for one reason or the other. McCain said he learned from that what the American people wanted and because of the changed his position to a security only position.
I believe him, he does not have a record of lying, when he says he is doing something he does it.
But that's just it Rev, mccain hasn't changed his position. He's says "I get it," but then all he's willing to say after that is he'll build a fence, nothing more. He does NOT say NO AMNESTY, and I know why. Because if given the chance again, AFTER he's in the White House, (no more reason to pander to the conservatives), he WILL work to give the illegals amnesty. Just watch. You can say this, I can say that. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Only time will tell who's right, although there's more indication I am than you.

The Reverend

03-12-2008, 01:05 PM

Well... I think it's pretty obvious we can't deport them all. America just doesn't have the back bone for it. I believe we could if we wanted to. I just don't believe we want to. I hate to admit defeat and say we can't do something before we've even made an effort. That just isn't the American way to me. But, I do believe that if we dry up the jobs, many will self deport. They got here, they can also get back. No jobs for illegals, no reason to come here or be here.
And the fence, there hasn't been much more than 12 miles of that built Rev. Congress stole the money from the project, and on top of that, they were building it with Chinese steal, and that caused a huge uproar. 200 miles.... nope, no way. Bad info there.
My info came for the Homeland Security website.
Also the Minutemen website says that more then 12 miles has been built.

But that's just it Rev, mccain hasn't changed his position. He's says "I get it," but then all he's willing to say after that is he'll build a fence, nothing more. He does NOT say NO AMNESTY, and I know why. Because if given the chance again, AFTER he's in the White House, (no more reason to pander to the conservatives), he WILL work to give the illegals amnesty. Just watch. You can say this, I can say that. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Only time will tell who's right, although there's more indication I am than you.
we'll just have to wait and see.
If either H or O get in then I guarantee you that Amnesty will get passed, as well as higher taxes, increased spending, universal healthcare and anti gun laws.

Voting third party is your right but you have to know that there is no possible way for a third party candidate to win.

You are right time will tell. Our best chance it to try and get back the majoity in at least either the Senate or the House.

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 01:10 PM

demonstrating that you have no clue what you are talking about is my new purpose in life.......the alternative is that some poor reader who needs to decide how or even whether to vote this fall, might make the mistake of taking your comments seriously........

I know that trolling me around the board somehow makes you feel big, but the fact of the matter is PmP, you're a pathetic little weak minded twit, and the more you talk, the more people can see that.

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 01:15 PM

My info came for the Homeland Security website.
Also the Minutemen website says that more then 12 miles has been built.
There may be 200 total, but that's counting the fence that Duncan Hunter built down by San Diego. Since the illegal debate really got hot, and since they passed the bill to build 700+ miles, there's only been a pitence of miles built, and now there's no more money. Congress stole it, and mccain just stood by and watched.

we'll just have to wait and see.
If either H or O get in then I guarantee you that Amnesty will get passed, as well as higher taxes, increased spending, universal healthcare and anti gun laws.

Voting third party is your right but you have to know that there is no possible way for a third party candidate to win.

You are right time will tell. Our best chance it to try and get back the majoity in at least either the Senate or the House.

I'm aware a third party won't win. But I'm sick to tears of having to "hold my nose" when I vote. I'm sick to tears of having to vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone. From this time on, I vow to vote "for" someone. But don't blame me if a liberal gets elected. "I" didn't vote for them. Someone else did. Blame them.

PostmodernProphet

03-12-2008, 02:08 PM

I'm sick to tears of having to vote "against" someone instead of "for" someone. From this time on, I vow to vote "for" someone.

then wouldn't it make sense to post things FOR someone, instead of only posting things AGAINST McCain?.......

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 02:36 PM

then wouldn't it make sense to post things FOR someone, instead of only posting things AGAINST McCain?.......

What exactly does it matter whether a piece of information is posted for or against someone? You trying to make people SHUT UP about mclame again? Do you expect us all to just SHRIVEL UP AND GO AWAY because we don't like mclame? You wanting people to SHUT UP about mccain is really a fucking joke PmP. No wonder you like him. You must have loved it when his mccain/feingold attack on free speech was passed. You really do love being able to make people SHUT UP when they say something you don't like, don't you? Well sorry smeg... if you don't like people posting bad things about your hero mclame, you better move on, 'cause it ain't gonna happen here.

My God man... get a grip on yourself.

PostmodernProphet

03-12-2008, 02:58 PM

What exactly does it matter whether a piece of information is posted for or against someone?

because posting lies about a candidate just because your guy lost is pretty lame.....

The Reverend

03-12-2008, 05:34 PM

PR then we will just have to agree to disagree about McCain then.

Pale Rider

03-12-2008, 07:50 PM

PR then we will just have to agree to disagree about McCain then.

Fair enough. Never expected anything more really.

Hold your breath though if he's elected. You just won't see any illegals going home, at all. I think I can pretty much assure you of that one.

The Reverend

03-12-2008, 08:02 PM

5stringJeff

03-12-2008, 10:14 PM

Ok, fine but how do you propose we deport 12-20 million people?

One illegal at a time, for as long as it takes.

Seriously, it's not that hard.

1. Decrease the demand for illegal labor. Do that by a) cracking down on businesses that hires illegals, like Arizona is doing, and b) making Mexico a better place to work (hey, just like NAFTA does).

2. Decrease the supply of illegals, by a) building a big wall from Brownville, TX, to San Diego, CA, and b) deporting illegals currently here.

That's it! Four simple steps to no more immigration problems.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 05:38 AM

Four simple steps to no more immigration problems.

no, that would only be the beginning of your immigration problems.....because now you have 12-20 million jobs not filled in the US and 12-20 million people sitting in Mexico that want to fill those jobs and X number of employers here looking for workers and our current work visa program only lets a hundred thousand in per year....

something has to be done to solve that problem.....now, why not take that action NOW and we can eliminate all the time and money spent on your four steps......

5stringJeff

03-13-2008, 08:53 AM

no, that would only be the beginning of your immigration problems.....because now you have 12-20 million jobs not filled in the US and 12-20 million people sitting in Mexico that want to fill those jobs and X number of employers here looking for workers and our current work visa program only lets a hundred thousand in per year....

something has to be done to solve that problem.....now, why not take that action NOW and we can eliminate all the time and money spent on your four steps......

First, the 12-20 million jobs could be filled any number of ways. First, teenagers, who have been effectively priced out of the market, would be able to apply for some of those jobs as after-school work. Second, technology would fill some of the gaps, especially in agriculture. I read in the WSJ yesterday that one of the reasons that farm technology has lagged behind other sectors of the economy is because labor is dirt-cheap. With less available labor, there will be more incentives to use more efficient technology, reducing the amount of laborers needed (and thus the number of guest-workers needed).

Second, no one should be so naive to think that all 12-20M illegals would be deported overnight. I doubt that, if we started today, we'd be logistically able to deport more than 1M/year. At that rate, the job market would be more than able to absorb the change.

Third, it would reestablish the rule of law over our borders, and make our country more secure.

The Reverend

03-13-2008, 11:52 AM

First, the 12-20 million jobs could be filled any number of ways. First, teenagers, who have been effectively priced out of the market, would be able to apply for some of those jobs as after-school work. Second, technology would fill some of the gaps, especially in agriculture. I read in the WSJ yesterday that one of the reasons that farm technology has lagged behind other sectors of the economy is because labor is dirt-cheap. With less available labor, there will be more incentives to use more efficient technology, reducing the amount of laborers needed (and thus the number of guest-workers needed).

Second, no one should be so naive to think that all 12-20M illegals would be deported overnight. I doubt that, if we started today, we'd be logistically able to deport more than 1M/year. At that rate, the job market would be more than able to absorb the change.

Third, it would reestablish the rule of law over our borders, and make our country more secure.

Actually all that would do is make companies send even MORE jobs overseas.

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 01:16 PM

Actually all that would do is make companies send even MORE jobs overseas.

How so?

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 01:19 PM

I don't expect to see illegals going home no matter who is elected, even if it were Duncan Hunter. Securing the borders and taking care of illegals is Congress' job.

The President either vetos or not bills.

The President can use his considerable influence over his own party to write bills that reflect what he wants, since he will ultimately be the one who either does or doesn't sign it into law.

Yes I believe we'd have seen illegals leaving, either on their own, by attrition, or by deportation if we'd have had a decent man strong on the illegals in the White House. As it is, we're fucked. All we are is one step closer to becoming a third world shit hole.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 01:54 PM

Second, no one should be so naive to think that all 12-20M illegals would be deported overnight. I doubt that, if we started today, we'd be logistically able to deport more than 1M/year.

????....so you are willing to put up with illegal aliens for the next 12 years so long as you can avoid disruption of the job market.....but you aren't willing to let them become LEGAL aliens to avoid disruption of the job market......

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 02:35 PM

????....so you are willing to put up with illegal aliens for the next 12 years so long as you can avoid disruption of the job market.....but you aren't willing to let them become LEGAL aliens to avoid disruption of the job market......

Now look who's confused.... "LEGAL aliens?"...... could you explain what a "LEGAL alien" is? ......... :laugh:

retiredman

03-13-2008, 02:41 PM

Now look who's confused.... "LEGAL aliens?"...... could you explain what a "LEGAL alien" is? ......... :laugh:

I would suggest that it is YOU who are confused.

al·ien [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn] –noun
1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.

every single non-native resident who is not yet naturalized is an alien. Some are legal, some are not.

school's out.

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 02:49 PM

I would suggest that it is YOU who are confused.

al·ien [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn] –noun
1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.

every single non-native resident who is not yet naturalized is an alien. Some are legal, some are not.

school's out.

What did you prove mfm? Nothing. If you are granted citizenship of this country, you are no longer an alien.

Go back to school.

retiredman

03-13-2008, 02:57 PM

What did you prove mfm? Nothing. If you are granted citizenship of this country, you are no longer an alien.

Go back to school.

...and if you are here and have NOT yet been granted citizenship, you are AN ALIEN. And there are LOTS of LEGAL ALIENS in America.

THAT, to answer your moronic question, is what a LIEGAL ALIEN IS.

quit smoking pot in the boy's room and get back to class!

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 03:09 PM

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 03:45 PM

he's right, Pale....every person admitted to this country on a valid work permit (green card) is a legal alien......they are not citizens, they are not illegals.....that is what McCain proposed for those currently here in this country illegally.....not citizenship......

But that is NOT what you were talking about PmP. YOU were talking about them becoming American citizens, to which, they would no longer be an alien. I'm 100% correct.

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 03:47 PM

...and if you are here and have NOT yet been granted citizenship, you are AN ALIEN. And there are LOTS of LEGAL ALIENS in America.

THAT, to answer your moronic question, is what a LIEGAL ALIEN IS.

quit smoking pot in the boy's room and get back to class!

Nothing but prescription meds here son. Keep your pot.

5stringJeff

03-13-2008, 04:11 PM

????....so you are willing to put up with illegal aliens for the next 12 years so long as you can avoid disruption of the job market.....but you aren't willing to let them become LEGAL aliens to avoid disruption of the job market......

I'm realistic enough to understand that all the illegals won't be going home overnight. But, more importantly, I respect the rule of law, and believe that illegal immigration should not be rewarded with citizenship.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 05:29 PM

But that is NOT what you were talking about PmP.

that is EXACTLY what I have been talking about....you just haven't been paying attention....I have never EVER suggested making an illegal a citizen.....I have said we need a functioning worker visa program.....

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 05:31 PM

But, more importantly, I respect the rule of law

yawn......do you pledge to continue to prosecute every man, woman or business that ever hired an illegal, now matter how long it takes, with loss of citizenship for every one of them, no exceptions?......or does your "rule of law" only apply to furriners......

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 05:38 PM

that is EXACTLY what I have been talking about....you just haven't been paying attention....I have never EVER suggested making an illegal a citizen.....I have said we need a functioning worker visa program.....

Pppphhht... you're such a dweeb PmP. You've argued for a path to citizenship more than once, and without much effort I found this quote of yours...

and yes, it is called amnesty.....and it is the only solution that is ever going to happen,

... you love the illegals, and you think they should all be allowed to stay. If you stand your ground and admit it, I'd have a tiny bit of respect for you. But if you're going to tap dance, wiggle and squirm here and try and deny it, well, right back in the toilet you go.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 06:02 PM

Pppphhht... you're such a dweeb PmP. You've argued for a path to citizenship more than once, and without much effort I found this quote of yours...

... you love the illegals, and you think they should all be allowed to stay. If you stand your ground and admit it, I'd have a tiny bit of respect for you. But if you're going to tap dance, wiggle and squirm here and try and deny it, well, right back in the toilet you go.

but you see, Pale, that is why I keep calling you an idiot.....you can't tell the difference between "amnesty" and promoting citizenship...even when it is pointed out to you and slapped upside your head.....

creating a program to give a green card to someone from another country, even if they have previously been in this country illegally turns them into a legal alien, not into a citizen.....let's put it in big letters, maybe it will sink in....AMNESTY DOES NOT EQUAL CITIZENSHIP....

now YOU can dance/wiggle/squirm as much as YOU like but it doesn't change the fact you don't know what you are talking about and never have......

Pale Rider

03-13-2008, 06:13 PM

but you see, Pale, that is why I keep calling you an idiot.....you can't tell the difference between "amnesty" and promoting citizenship...even when it is pointed out to you and slapped upside your head.....

creating a program to give a green card to someone from another country, even if they have previously been in this country illegally turns them into a legal alien, not into a citizen.....let's put it in big letters, maybe it will sink in....AMNESTY DOES NOT EQUAL CITIZENSHIP....

now YOU can dance/wiggle/squirm as much as YOU like but it doesn't change the fact you don't know what you are talking about and never have......

Wiggly, wiggly... little worm.... :laugh:..... :lol:

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:10 PM

but you see, Pale, that is why I keep calling you an idiot.....you can't tell the difference between "amnesty" and promoting citizenship...even when it is pointed out to you and slapped upside your head.....

creating a program to give a green card to someone from another country, even if they have previously been in this country illegally turns them into a legal alien, not into a citizen.....let's put it in big letters, maybe it will sink in....AMNESTY DOES NOT EQUAL CITIZENSHIP....

now YOU can dance/wiggle/squirm as much as YOU like but it doesn't change the fact you don't know what you are talking about and never have......

Which creates a path to citizenship. Amnesty = Legal Alien = Citizenship.

The Reverend

03-13-2008, 07:18 PM

yes it created a path to citizenship BUT it was not amnesty. Amnesty is getting off the hook scott free. Those that qualified had to PAY for their crime.

Besides none of the path would have even taken place until the security measures were in place and working first.

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:21 PM

The Reverend

03-13-2008, 07:29 PM

How would they have paid? Also please explain the bold part.

Gladly
The Z visa comes with a fine of $5,000 per person, and the individual must return to their home country to legally be admitted into the United States.
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/visa_z.html

After eight years, the holder of a Z visa would be eligible for a United States Permanent Resident Card (a "green card") if they wanted to have one; they would first have to pay a $2000 fine, and back taxes for some of the period in which they worked. By the normal rules of green cards, five years after that the immigrant could begin the process of becoming a U.S. citizen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:38 PM

Gladly
The Z visa comes with a fine of $5,000 per person, and the individual must return to their home country to legally be admitted into the United States.
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/visa_z.html

After eight years, the holder of a Z visa would be eligible for a United States Permanent Resident Card (a "green card") if they wanted to have one; they would first have to pay a $2000 fine, and back taxes for some of the period in which they worked. By the normal rules of green cards, five years after that the immigrant could begin the process of becoming a U.S. citizen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007

So if I read this correctly, Juan McAmnesty and the proprietor of the Chappaquiddick Car Wash think American citizenship is worth $5,000.00. They, the illegals, are not getting amnesty, but they get a chance at becoming an American citizen. Unlike Americans who have to pay all back taxes with added penalties, they, the illegals, have to pay some back taxes, but not all for the period that they worked while using the identity of an American citizen.

Sound about right?

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 07:49 PM

Which creates a path to citizenship. Amnesty = Legal Alien = Citizenship.

arguing with you is like arguing with a blank white wall.......

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 07:53 PM

Sound about right?

no, it sounds like you fucked it up again.....what is it with you people.....not gonna be satisfied until all those brown skinned little shits have paid back in blood for all the damage they did to YOU......go figure....

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:54 PM

arguing with you is like arguing with a blank white wall.......

To quote the man who stirs your Kool Aid...

yes it created a path to citizenship BUT it was not amnesty.

Put up or shut up. Prove my statement wrong.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 07:55 PM

not only is your statement wrong, but your head is wrong....I swear I seem to have stumbled into the skinhead division of the conservative movement

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:55 PM

no, it sounds like you fucked it up again.....what is it with you people.....not gonna be satisfied until all those brown skinned little shits have paid back in blood for all the damage they did to YOU......go figure....

Brown skinned? You a racist? I said illegal aliens. That is an all inclusive term that covers illegals from every country.

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 07:56 PM

not only is your statement wrong, but your head is wrong....I swear I seem to have stumbled into the skinhead division of the conservative movement

So that's your game? Accuse us of being racists and hope we'll shut up and go home. Fuck you.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 07:58 PM

and here is why your statement is wrong....

five years after that the immigrant could beginthe process of becoming a U.S. citizen.

the act didn't give them a step UP to to citizenship, it added requirements before they could BEGIN the process that everyone else goes through......

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 07:59 PM

Brown skinned? You a racist?

no, but no matter how much you deny it, YOU are.....and I am sick of it.....

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 08:01 PM

no, but no matter how much you deny it, YOU are.....and I am sick of it.....

Blow me. You're nothing more than a modern day slave master looking for someone to mow your lawn and pick your fruit while working below the radar for less than minimum wage.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 08:02 PM

So that's your game? Accuse us of being racists and hope we'll shut up and go home. Fuck you.
not at all,....I see no hope whatsoever that you will shut up.....bigots never do......

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 08:02 PM

not at all,....I see no hope whatsoever that you will shut up.....bigots never do......

Which is why you keep responding with the personal insults.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 08:04 PM

Blow me. You're nothing more than a modern day slave master looking for someone to mow your lawn and pick your fruit while working below the radar for less than minimum wage.

don't try to pull the smoke screen crap on me....are you also willing to keep them in slavery for twelve more years just to save you the money of actually enforcing your bullshit "rule of law"......

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 08:06 PM

Which is why you keep responding with the personal insults.

lol, don't tell me I am sucking Kool Aid and have the balls to complain about "personal insults"......

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 08:09 PM

don't try to pull the smoke screen crap on me....are you also willing to keep them in slavery for twelve more years just to save you the money of actually enforcing your bullshit "rule of law"......

Really? Here's me at the border doing the job our government won't do.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/82Marine89/5-19011.jpg

Here's another shot of me at the border...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/82Marine89/Mon234.jpg

I want all illegals gone now and I am willing do do more than sit at my keyboard bitching about it.

You just live off of the backs of these folks.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 08:13 PM

Really? Here's me at the border doing the job our government won't do.

why weren't you out arresting roofing contractors and landscapers instead?......I say you are pretty selective about who you think violates the law.....and I assume, since you aren't racist, that you are patrolling the Montana border?

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 08:18 PM

why weren't you out arresting roofing contractors and landscapers instead?......I say you are pretty selective about who you think violates the law.....and I assume, since you aren't racist, that you are patrolling the Montana border?

If someone comes across our southern border and it's not through a port of entry, they are entering illegally. I live in San Diego that is where I patrol. It's a matter of logistics.

The Reverend

03-13-2008, 08:29 PM

So if I read this correctly, Juan McAmnesty and the proprietor of the Chappaquiddick Car Wash think American citizenship is worth $5,000.00. They, the illegals, are not getting amnesty, but they get a chance at becoming an American citizen. Unlike Americans who have to pay all back taxes with added penalties, they, the illegals, have to pay some back taxes, but not all for the period that they worked while using the identity of an American citizen.

Sound about right?
http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall.gif

Just like we treat ALL criminals. We FINE and punish them and it is done.
You act like coming into this country is worse then murder.

Put up or shut up. Prove my statement wrong.
I have OVER and OVER.

82Marine89

03-13-2008, 08:49 PM

http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall.gif

Just like we treat ALL criminals. We FINE and punish them and it is done.
You act like coming into this country is worse then murder.

No, but there is already a law on the books that says the penalty is deportation and the illegal has to wait a minimum of 10 years before he can apply for a visa. The people who support amnesty and a path to citizenship need to be tried for treason.

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 10:15 PM

If someone comes across our southern border and it's not through a port of entry, they are entering illegally.

sure, and for twenty years you did nothing to keep them from crossing the border, and you gave them jobs and you taught their kids and you cured their illnesses and you did absolutely nothing to enforce those laws......but now you want THEM to bear all the guilt......how about your share of the guilt in ignoring the problem for twenty years.....or were you out in the desert of San Diego patrolling the border in '94 or 2000.......

PostmodernProphet

03-13-2008, 10:17 PM

The people who support amnesty and a path to citizenship need to be tried for treason.

and why not your own treason for doing nothing in 90 and 91 and 92 and 99 and every other year.......

The Reverend

03-14-2008, 05:20 AM

No, but there is already a law on the books that says the penalty is deportation and the illegal has to wait a minimum of 10 years before he can apply for a visa. The people who support amnesty and a path to citizenship need to be tried for treason.
Can't be tride for treason according to the USC

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to deport 12-20 million people.

Pale Rider

03-14-2008, 08:26 AM

It is IMPOSSIBLE to deport 12-20 million people.

I wouldn't say that's even close to the truth. It sure is easy to say that, but, it's never been tried, and it's not the American way to just admit defeat without even trying.

Should we deport every single illegal alien in the country is probably a far better question, and the answer is probably no. It's already been established that if jobs dry up illegals will self deport, so to just say we can't isn't really an accurate statement. We may not have to.

Bottom line, if you entered this country illegally, you do need to leave and come back through legal channels. There is no just stay here. That's amnesty, and yes, the vast majority of Americans are vehemently against it.

5stringJeff

03-14-2008, 09:20 AM

yawn......do you pledge to continue to prosecute every man, woman or business that ever hired an illegal, now matter how long it takes, with loss of citizenship for every one of them, no exceptions?......or does your "rule of law" only apply to furriners......

Loss of citizenship has never been a punishment for felonies or misdemeanors. But yes, I do support punishing all those who hire, or have hired, illegal labor.

PostmodernProphet

03-14-2008, 09:29 AM

Bottom line, if you entered this country illegally, you do need to leave and come back through legal channels.

okay, we're making some progress here....now, what if a legal channel is created which avoids the step of crossing the border first.....an application for a work visa executed in THIS country?....is there some significance in your mind attached to stepping onto the soil of Mexico that make one method of legal entry more legitimate than another method?.....

Loss of citizenship has never been a punishment for felonies or misdemeanors.

but for some reason you believe that permanently barring citizenship IS an important requirement of punishment for the felony of being in this country illegally....even though for twenty years we haven't even bothered to arrest someone for doing it?......

5stringJeff

03-14-2008, 09:39 AM

but for some reason you believe that permanently barring citizenship IS an important requirement of punishment for the felony of being in this country illegally....even though for twenty years we haven't even bothered to arrest someone for doing it?......

Citizenship is a birthright for those born in this country of citizens and legal immigrants. It is a privilege for those born outside the US. So if someone attempts to abuse that privilege, they should be punished. And frankly, I don't care whether punishment includes the permanent barring of that illegal alien from applying for a visa (or even citizenship) or not. The point is, I want them deported to their country of citizenship.

JohnDoe

03-14-2008, 09:48 AM

Citizenship is a birthright for those born in this country of citizens and legal immigrants. It is a privilege for those born outside the US. So if someone attempts to abuse that privilege, they should be punished. And frankly, I don't care whether punishment includes the permanent barring of that illegal alien from applying for a visa (or even citizenship) or not. The point is, I want them deported to their country of citizenship.
not to confuse the issue Jeff, but it IS a birthright of those born to USA citizen parents too, even if born in a foreign country, right?

5stringJeff

03-14-2008, 09:50 AM

not to confuse the issue Jeff, but it IS a birthright of those born to USA citizen parents too, even if born in a foreign country, right?

Yes. Sorry.

Pale Rider

03-14-2008, 01:08 PM

okay, we're making some progress here....now, what if a legal channel is created which avoids the step of crossing the border first.....an application for a work visa executed in THIS country?....is there some significance in your mind attached to stepping onto the soil of Mexico that make one method of legal entry more legitimate than another method?.....

I wish you would learn how to correctly use the quote function, so as to leave the name of the person you're quoting in the window like I have done above.

To answer your question, yes, there is a significance, and that is if you're in this country illegally, you need to leave. However, if you're here on a some sort of visa and it has expired, possibly I could see an amnesty for those people if they came forward and renewed it. If not, if they went passed an amnesty period, if encountered, they should be deported right along with all the others that are here illegally.

See, what this all boils down to PmP, is that for some reason you believe every single illegal alien should be granted some sort amnesty and left alone to stay here. I on the other hand believe this country is over crowded as is, and to legalise 20 million more illegal aliens already here is something this country just does not need.