Record-high ratio of Americans in prison

[LiberalNation]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080229/ap_on_re_us/prison_population;_ylt=As5LTgdZG9FpdD6Jmzn_Axtvzwc F


NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America's rank as the world's No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.

Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it's more than any other nation.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.




The report cited Kansas and Texas as states that have acted decisively to slow the growth of their inmate population. They are making greater use of community supervision for low-risk offenders and employing sanctions other than reimprisonment for offenders who commit technical violations of parole and probation rules.

"The new approach, born of bipartisan leadership, is allowing the two states to ensure they have enough prison beds for violent offenders while helping less dangerous lawbreakers become productive, taxpaying citizens," the report said.

While many state governments have shown bipartisan interest in curbing prison growth, there also are persistent calls to proceed cautiously.

"We need to be smarter," said David Muhlhausen, a criminal justice expert with the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We're not incarcerating all the people who commit serious crimes. But we're also probably incarcerating people who don't need to be."

According to the report, the inmate population increased last year in 36 states and the federal prison system.

The largest percentage increase — 12 percent — was in Kentucky, where Gov. Steve Beshear highlighted the cost of corrections in his budget speech last month. He noted that the state's crime rate had increased only about 3 percent in the past 30 years, while the state's inmate population has increased by 600 percent.

The report was compiled by the Pew Center's Public Safety Performance Project, which is working with 13 states on developing programs to divert offenders from prison without jeopardizing public safety.

"Getting tough on criminals has gotten tough on taxpayers," said the project's director, Adam Gelb.

According to the report, the average annual cost per prisoner was $23,876, with Rhode Island spending the most ($44,860) and Louisiana the least ($13,009). It said California — which faces a $16 billion budget shortfall — spent $8.8 billion on corrections last year, while Texas, which has slightly more inmates, was a distant second with spending of $3.3 billion.

On average, states spend 6.8 percent of their general fund dollars on corrections, the report said. Oregon had the highest spending rate, at 10.9 percent; Alabama the lowest at 2.6 percent.

Four states — Vermont, Michigan, Oregon and Connecticut — now spend more on corrections than they do on higher education, the report said.

"These sad facts reflect a very distorted set of national priorities," said Sen. Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, referring to the full report. "Perhaps, if we adequately invested in our children and in education, kids who now grow up to be criminals could become productive workers and taxpayers."

The report said prison growth and higher incarceration rates do not reflect an increase in the nation's overall population. Instead, it said, more people are behind bars mainly because of tough sentencing measures, such as "three-strikes" laws, that result in longer prison stays.

"For some groups, the incarceration numbers are especially startling," the report said. "While one in 30 men between the ages of 20 and 34 is behind bars, for black males in that age group the figure is one in nine."

The racial disparity for women also is stark. One of every 355 white women aged 35 to 39 is behind bars, compared with one of every 100 black women in that age group.

The nationwide figures, as of Jan. 1, include 1,596,127 people in state and federal prisons and 723,131 in local jails. That's out of almost 230 million American adults.

[Classact]

Free people desire an expected norm where crime is not the norm... this requires that those who live outside of the norm should be incarcerated.

Perhaps corrections institutions should be less welcoming to those who insist on being outside of the norm... perhaps these facilities should be punishment verses "corrections institutions"... We fix broken cars... broken TV's and electronics go in the garbage and we buy new ones. We do not need to "fix" broken citizens. Broken citizens need to be broken like a cowboy breaks a wild horse so they may live within the norm.:cheers2:

[Monkeybone]

i would like to know if some of these number are due to illegal aliens.

[Classact]

i would like to know if some of these number are due to illegal aliens.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, in 2005, 25% of prisoners in federal prisons were illegal aliens, and 4% were legal aliens. This proportion has not gone down; if anything, it has gone up markedly. Bill O'Reilly is on record more recently stating that illegal aliens account for 32% of the federal and state prison population.

According to the well-respected U.S. Center for Immigration Studies (www.cis.org), incarcerated convicted illegal aliens make up 29 percent of federal, state and local prisons at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. This number doubles when the costs for apprehension, the justice system, public defenders, interpreters, prosecutors and the courts add to the total.
http://www.borderfirereport.net/latest/immigration-law-illegal-aliens-and-crime.html

[Hagbard Celine]

One in every 100 American adults is in prison. One in every 36 Hispanic Americans is in prison. One in every 15 Black Americans is in prison. All according to the Today Show of course ;) The majority is made up of minority members (Blacks, Hispanics, etc.) who also happen to make up the majority of the poor class.

[DragonStryk72]

Obviously, we do need a better system for it. I mean, like the prisons themselves were saying, there are a number of people in prison who really don't need to be, and that definitely needs to be looked at. We can't pay for housing for 3 million people, it's just asking too much, and boils down, again, to the government doing too much.

We do need a way to both keep these people productive, and off the public's dime.

[Monkeybone]

One in every 100 American adults is in prison. One in every 36 Hispanic Americans is in prison. One in every 15 Black Americans is in prison. All according to the Today Show of course ;) The majority is made up of minority members (Blacks, Hispanics, etc.) who also happen to make up the majority of the poor class.

we should just send them all to Canada.

[jimnyc]

Let's all support "amnesty" for the illegals and watch the prisons become more populated than our neighborhoods!

[Hagbard Celine]

Let's all support "amnesty" for the illegals and watch the prisons become more populated than our neighborhoods!

Wow, very nice. I guess it's not possible that the majority of illegal aliens come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes. No way Jose! It would downright rational to say something like that!

[JohnDoe]

It is a FACT that crime goes down when the poor have jobs.

It is a FACT that crime goes down when you have effective schools.


just something to ponder.....

[Hagbard Celine]

It is a FACT that crime goes down when the poor have jobs.

It is a FACT that crime goes down when you have effective schools.


just something to ponder.....

What's to ponder? If people have jobs they have something to do and money in their pocket. Less time and no need to commit crimes.

Education leads to higher skilled laborers and better decision makers. No duh. You'd think the guys in Washington holding down the ivory towers would've figured this out by now.

[Monkeybone]

It is a FACT that crime goes down when the poor have jobs.

It is a FACT that crime goes down when you have effective schools.


just something to ponder.....

the school part just caught my eye. because i am a firm believer that our schools have slacked off way to much. instead of making a kid feel bad and maybe repeating a grade, they just kinda shuffle him through. and even not failing ones. they make the grade scale so easy that you don't even have to try to get a passing grade. they instill almost no work ethic and then everyone is surpirsed when they get to college and the grades just aren't handed to them.

that was my rant. all done for now.

[Monkeybone]

What's to ponder? If people have jobs they have something to do and money in their pocket. Less time and no need to commit crimes.

Education leads to higher skilled laborers and better decision makers. No duh. You'd think the guys in Washington holding down the ivory towers would've figured this out by now.

yah, but like the drug dealers and robbers, etc. easy money. why work hard? just don't get cuaght and you're fine. and i am just not saying that is all of the poor ppl. well off (whatever) background ppl slip into the 'easiest path' routine just the same.

[Hagbard Celine]

yah, but like the drug dealers and robbers, etc. easy money. why work hard? just don't get cuaght and you're fine. and i am just not saying that is all of the poor ppl. well off (whatever) background ppl slip into the 'easiest path' routine just the same.

Robbing is an easy way out, but drug dealers (the successful ones) are usually good businessmen. Poor minorities don't get a lot of chances to go to good universities and get high-paying jobs. Since the drug market thrives in poor communities, the smart ones and the ones who have business sense just take advantage of the opportunities that are around them. I mean what would you do? Take a job as a fry cook at McDonalds working for minimum wage? Or would you sell cocaine or cannibis and make $20,000 to $30,000 a year? It's like the saying goes "You've either got a wicked jump shot or you're slingin' crack rock."

[hjmick]

Wow, very nice. I guess it's not possible that the majority of illegal aliens come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes. No way Jose! It would downright rational to say something like that!

The very act of entering the U.S. without the proper authorization establishes them as criminals. The very first act performed by illegal aliens is to break our laws, thus the moniker "illegal" aliens. They may very well be able to work legitimate jobs once they get here, but that does not negate the fact that they are illegally in the country and in violation of the law. That makes the criminals from the word "go."

[Hagbard Celine]

The very act of entering the U.S. without the proper authorization establishes them as criminals. The very first act performed by illegal aliens is to break our laws, thus the moniker "illegal" aliens. They may very well be able to work legitimate jobs once they get here, but that does not negate the fact that they are illegally in the country and in violation of the law. That makes the criminals from the word "go."

This is a technical criminality. It's not as if they're raping, thieving and murdering their way into our country. It harms no one it's just technically illegal. Most of them are good people just trying to make a better life for themselves the easiest way they know how. They cross an invisible line into a place with jobs where they can make money to support their families. (shrug) It's sad that a guy who pretends to be "laid back" like Jimmy Buffet can't understand that these people are just trying to survive the best they can.

[Classact]

If jail was a zero cost to taxpayers then it would not be a problem how many people are in jail but a concern of those families that have relatives there.

I suggest that jail should be punishment and that it should sustain itself and all associated costs of its operation. This can easily be accomplished through using jails as food production for themselves and poor within the state. Using prison labor to produce electricity even if they have to walk 16 hours a day in a squirrel cage. Jobs in jail should support good behavior and those who behave well should be learning and then educating neighborhoods they came from as part of their punishment.

Put the law violators knee deep in pig shit and let them live in the loft over cows to keep warm in the winter... no TV, no creature comforts at all without good behavior. Want electricity then get on a bicycle hooked up to a generator and start pumping.

[Monkeybone]

It's sad that a guy who pretends to be "laid back" like Jimmy Buffet can't understand that these people are just trying to survive the best they can.


he wants them to stay down there and make more tequila! derr!

no offense HJ. i love you....does that sound gay? uh...i mean...i love you post! on here! what you say! ahhh!

[Monkeybone]

If jail was a zero cost to taxpayers then it would not be a problem how many people are in jail but a concern of those families that have relatives there.

I suggest that jail should be punishment and that it should sustain itself and all associated costs of its operation. This can easily be accomplished through using jails as food production for themselves and poor within the state. Using prison labor to produce electricity even if they have to walk 16 hours a day in a squirrel cage. Jobs in jail should support good behavior and those who behave well should be learning and then educating neighborhoods they came from as part of their punishment.

Put the law violators knee deep in pig shit and let them live in the loft over cows to keep warm in the winter... no TV, no creature comforts at all without good behavior. Want electricity then get on a bicycle hooked up to a generator and start pumping.

sadly, i see nothing wrong with that. make them work for it and they will aprreciate it more. i know that around here Prof's from the local college teach with their free time, trying to help the guys get degrees.

and heck, the ones that can talk just fine, make them call support instead of someone who you have to say "huh?" all of the time

[jimnyc]

Wow, very nice. I guess it's not possible that the majority of illegal aliens come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes. No way Jose! It would downright rational to say something like that!

The majority come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes? I believe they committed a crime by just coming here illegally to start, and how do they work legitimately when they are here illegally?

[jimnyc]

This is a technical criminality. It's not as if they're raping, thieving and murdering their way into our country. It harms no one it's just technically illegal.

Then every single person convicted of possession of drugs for personal use should be pardoned. Anyone speeding on a road with no other cars or people around should not receive a ticket. I could list tons of laws on our books that are enforced daily where no one is technically "harmed" when violating them. We should take these laws out of the system?

[hjmick]

This is a technical criminality. It's not as if they're raping, thieving and murdering their way into our country. It harms no one it's just technically illegal. Most of them are good people just trying to make a better life for themselves the easiest way they know how. They cross an invisible line into a place with jobs where they can make money to support their families. (shrug) It's sad that a guy who pretends to be "laid back" like Jimmy Buffet can't understand that these people are just trying to survive the best they can.

I understand it, completely. I even sympathize with their plight. I have known more than one illegal immigrant (in California it's damn near impossible not to cross paths with them on a daily basis) and have even worked with a few. One in particular I respect immensely. He came to this country from El Salvador, leaving his family behind. Once here he worked tirelessly to obtain legal status and bring his family to the U.S. He succeeded. I loved talking with him, joking with him, working with him, and being around him made me a better person. His son came to work for the company and he, too, was a wonderful person. I loved them like brothers and the day they moved to Arkansas was one of the saddest I have had here at work. I have not respected any of my coworkers more than I did those two gentlemen. Their work ethic was and still is unparalleled.

Just because I'm laid back doesn't mean I advocate allowing the free flow of illegal immigration, and just because I am opposed to illegal immigration does not mean that I do not understand or sympathize with the plight of those who seek refuge within our borders. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of their native countries to address the needs of it's people, the needs that stimulate the influx we see here of illegal immigrants. I do not single out Mexico and the central American nations as the only source of concern, though they are the greatest source of this flood of humanity. They must confront and fix the problems that have lead to their biggest export being human beings, this will benefit not only them, but us as well.

I do not believe that we will be able to completely eliminate people from entering this country illegally, America is a great country full of hope and opportunity. It always has been and continues to be so, despite what others may say. But the idea that we can just ignore the issue and think that it has no ill effect I believe is misguided. I believe that immigration is part of the life blood of this country, both historically and for it's future, but I think it should be done legally as much as possible and I believe that illegal immigration should be eliminated as best as we can.

That doesn't make me unsympathetic. That doesn't mean I don't understand the problems that motivate the migration.

[Hagbard Celine]

Then every single person convicted of possession of drugs for personal use should be pardoned. Anyone speeding on a road with no other cars or people around should not receive a ticket. I could list tons of laws on our books that are enforced daily where no one is technically "harmed" when violating them. We should take these laws out of the system?

I think every single person convicted of possession of drugs for personal use should be pardoned. I also think a person speeding on a deserted road should not be given a ticket. I think police officers should make judgements based on circumstances instead of being mindless buzzkills. Have you ever eased through a light at 3:00 in the morning when there was no one around? Do you deserve a ticket for doing that? Hell no you don't. And neither do I. But if a cop saw you doing it he'd ruin your day because "derr, it's his duty to enfarce the law."

[hjmick]

I think every single person convicted of possession of drugs for personal use should be pardoned. I also think a person speeding on a deserted road should not be given a ticket. I think police officers should make judgements based on circumstances instead of being mindless buzzkills. Have you ever eased through a light at 3:00 in the morning when there was no one around? Do you deserve a ticket for doing that? Hell no you don't. And neither do I. But if a cop saw you doing it he'd ruin your day because "derr, it's his duty to enfarce the law."

I'm with you on the drugs, they should all be legal. The "war on drugs" is a farce and a waste of money that could best be applied elsewhere. I'm probably with you on the traffic stuff too, but I'm asleep at 3:00am so I don't really care.

[jimnyc]

I think every single person convicted of possession of drugs for personal use should be pardoned. I also think a person speeding on a deserted road should not be given a ticket. I think police officers should make judgements based on circumstances instead of being mindless buzzkills. Have you ever eased through a light a 3:00 in the morning when there was no one around? Do you deserve a ticket for doing that? Hell no you don't. And neither do I. But if a cop saw you doing it he'd ruin your day because "derr, it's his duty to enfarce the law."

My beliefs on the stupidity of certain infractions don't change the fact that we have laws on the books for a reason. These laws do have varying degrees of severity, but all in all they make this a better nation for all. Same goes for illegals entering this country. While you may see it as only "technically" illegal, there are reasons for these laws. All would be fine if they would simply follow the laws of the country they are trying to enter, but their illegal activities cost our country billions of dollars - and guess who foots the bill? That's right, us taxpayers.

[Hagbard Celine]

My beliefs on the stupidity of certain infractions don't change the fact that we have laws on the books for a reason. These laws do have varying degrees of severity, but all in all they make this a better nation for all. Same goes for illegals entering this country. While you may see it as only "technically" illegal, there are reasons for these laws. All would be fine if they would simply follow the laws of the country they are trying to enter, but their illegal activities cost our country billions of dollars - and guess who foots the bill? That's right, us taxpayers.

Our taxes go to pay for plenty of other ridiculous bs. The least of our concerns is the tax money "wasted" on educating the kids of an illegal alien. I don't think "illegals" are the ones cramming our prisons anyway. When illegals are caught, they're deported. They don't go to prison here in the US do they? If they do that's the first thing that needs to be fixed.
Back to the "prisons" discussion, I just think it's a damn shame that the prisons are so overcrowded that a rapist can be paroled just to make room for a guy caught with a pound of weed. To me that's the crime.
Fixing the problem begins with education of the people. Education leads to better decision-making. Better decision-making leads to lower crime levels.

[JohnDoe]

The majority come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes? I believe they committed a crime by just coming here illegally to start, and how do they work legitimately when they are here illegally?yes it is a crime to come here illegally....but a crime that is about eqivilant to one of us Jay-walking....not certain people get put in jail for Jay-walking?

the law on the books is very weak and lenient and not worth much imo....when it comes to entering our country illegally....having a joint on you would get you more prison time...depending on the state.

jd

[Classact]

yes it is a crime to come here illegally....but a crime that is about eqivilant to one of us Jay-walking....not certain people get put in jail for Jay-walking?

the law on the books is very weak and lenient and not worth much imo....when it comes to entering our country illegally....having a joint on you would get you more prison time...depending on the state.

jdFirst offender drug possession for personal use never results in jail time unless there is a more serious crime involved.

The crime for illegal immigrants should be working without authorization... a felony tax evasion. The crime is equal for the employer.. tax evasion and violating other US federal and state laws.

Entering the country without a visa is not a serious crime but evading tax should be.

[Trigg]

. Poor minorities don't get a lot of chances to go to good universities and get high-paying jobs. ."

I completely disagree with your statement.

I would say it's probably harder for middle income people to send their kids to school than low income, simply because the middle class doesn't get any brake on tuition or books because of the income of the parents. There are gov. grants and programs in MANY states that offer a FREE education if the families make below a certain amount.

meanwhile the middle class parents are expected to completely pay college costs and hope to get a scholership or two to help them out.

If kids turn to selling drugs IMO it has more to do with environment that the lack of gov. programs to get them yet more free stuff.

[Sitarro]

What's to ponder? If people have jobs they have something to do and money in their pocket. Less time and no need to commit crimes.

Education leads to higher skilled laborers and better decision makers. No duh. You'd think the guys in Washington holding down the ivory towers would've figured this out by now.

Here in Houston, on any weekend, you can depend on a number of murders and numerous more fights that result in stabbings outside of predominately hispanic and black clubs. The names in the newspaper make it obvious. Add to that, plenty of DUIs that result in death are attributed to hispanic named individuals each weekend. These are your hardworking, hard partying hispanics.

Education isn't hard to get, if one wants to they could learn almost anything on their own for the cost of a library card.

[JohnDoe]

First offender drug possession for personal use never results in jail time unless there is a more serious crime involved.

The crime for illegal immigrants should be working without authorization... a felony tax evasion. The crime is equal for the employer.. tax evasion and violating other US federal and state laws.

Entering the country without a visa is not a serious crime but evading tax should be.


Well, I wish I could agree with your first statement, but I just read a case recently about a young....18, very smart and ambitious student, a supposed shining star.... that had 3 jays on him i believe, but within so many yards from a school or playground, was being pursued by the DA for a 20 year sentence, which their state law allowed because of the possession being within so many blocks or within 2 miles from a school/playground zone..... I was SHOCKED and appalled!


jd

[Sitarro]

If jail was a zero cost to taxpayers then it would not be a problem how many people are in jail but a concern of those families that have relatives there.

I suggest that jail should be punishment and that it should sustain itself and all associated costs of its operation. This can easily be accomplished through using jails as food production for themselves and poor within the state. Using prison labor to produce electricity even if they have to walk 16 hours a day in a squirrel cage. Jobs in jail should support good behavior and those who behave well should be learning and then educating neighborhoods they came from as part of their punishment.

Put the law violators knee deep in pig shit and let them live in the loft over cows to keep warm in the winter... no TV, no creature comforts at all without good behavior. Want electricity then get on a bicycle hooked up to a generator and start pumping.

Here is the Sheriff that gets it done right.......

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/


Arizona criminals find jail too in-'tents'


Arpaio has dramatically cut prison costs since becoming sheriff seven years ago


July 27, 1999
Web posted at: 2:00 p.m. EDT (1800 GMT)

In this story:

Pink underwear and bedtime stories

RELATED STORIES, SITES

MARICOPA COUNTY, Arizona (CNN) -- The tent city looks like a military camp in the desert, with thick canvas sleeping quarters spreading out in a remote area of Arizona.

The inhabitants, however, are not soldiers, but residents of an unusual, some say brutal, prison run by legendary lawman Joe Arpaio, called the toughest sheriff in the West.

For the Maricopa County sheriff, who opened the nation's largest tent prison in 1993, saving taxpayer pennies matters more than comforting convicted felons.

"We took away coffee, that saved $150,000 a year. Why do you need coffee in jail?" says Arpaio, patrolling the dusty, barren grounds. "Switched to bologna sandwiches, that saved half a million dollars a year."

Arpaio makes inmates pay for their meals, which some say are worse than those for the guard dogs. Canines eat $1.10 worth of food a day, the inmate 90 cents, the sheriff says. "I'm very proud of that too."

Critics rail against harsh conditions in the prison, where temperatures can top 100 degrees.

[theHawk]

It is a FACT that crime goes down when the poor have jobs.

It is a FACT that crime goes down when you have effective schools.


just something to ponder.....

And I am willing to bet that a majority of those in prisons threw away their taxpayer given education. I feel no sympathy for those types at all. I grew up and went to school with a largely Mexican population. Many of them threw away their high school education because they were too busy playing wannabe gangster or wanting to do drugs. The school itself had nothing to do with it. I did just fine in the same school. The school officials said "don't do drugs", and "don't get envolved in gangs". Well, alot of those drop outs and losers made their decision and I have no doubt that many of them are in prison.

This problem has nothing to do with education and jobs, and everything to do with the wannabe gangster culture that Mexicans and blacks grow up in.

[JohnDoe]

And I am willing to bet that a majority of those in prisons threw away their taxpayer given education. I feel no sympathy for those types at all. I grew up and went to school with a largely Mexican population. Many of them threw away their high school education because they were too busy playing wannabe gangster or wanting to do drugs. The school itself had nothing to do with it. I did just fine in the same school. The school officials said "don't do drugs", and "don't get envolved in gangs". Well, alot of those drop outs and losers made their decision and I have no doubt that many of them are in prison.

This problem has nothing to do with education and jobs, and everything to do with the wannabe gangster culture that Mexicans and blacks grow up in.

OK, let's presume that I agree with you....it could be that i lived a sheltered, middle class life, in a land far, far away from what you just described.

-Why has crime gone up and being a gangster more reputable and worthy of attention by these youth than holding a good paying job and fitting in to society, with less fear of being killed?

-What is your proposal to reduce these kinds of thugs?

-How can you dispute figures on crime reduction when unemployment among the poor is low, and higher crimes when unemployment among the poor is high? I see a correlation....maybe I am wrong in this logic, but this is how it appears to me?

jd

[theHawk]

OK, let's presume that I agree with you....it could be that i lived a sheltered, middle class life, in a land far, far away from what you just described.

-Why has crime gone up and being a gangster more reputable and worthy of attention by these youth than holding a good paying job and fitting in to society, with less fear of being killed?

-What is your proposal to reduce these kinds of thugs?

-How can you dispute figures on crime reduction when unemployment among the poor is low, and higher crimes when unemployment among the poor is high? I see a correlation....maybe I am wrong in this logic, but this is how it appears to me?

jd

Im not disputing that crime would be lower when there is less unemployment. What I am saying is that there are alot of people that are unemployed because they threw away their education when they were young.

The only thing I "propose" is these families and kids get their heads out of their asses and take advantage of the opportunity this country gives them by means of a free education.

Beyond that, its not up to us to babysit or raise people's children. I am not into socialism, so I am certainly not in favor of some silly government program to 'solve the problem'. It can be solved easily by those people themselves. But if they are unwilling to help themselves then I see no reason to waste time or money on them.

[JohnDoe]

Im not disputing that crime would be lower when there is less unemployment. What I am saying is that there are alot of people that are unemployed because they threw away their education when they were young.

The only thing I "propose" is these families and kids get their heads out of their asses and take advantage of the opportunity this country gives them by means of a free education.

Beyond that, its not up to us to babysit or raise people's children. I am not into socialism, so I am certainly not in favor of some silly government program to 'solve the problem'. It can be solved easily by those people themselves. But if they are unwilling to help themselves then I see no reason to waste time or money on them.but it ends up costing you more, on average 24k a person in jail per year there, and RI was 44k a year....that is the way it is now, and unless major changes take place across our country, we will spend more on incarceration than on educating our children in each and every state.... THAT is just unacceptable to me!

So, i guess i stick with something has to be done, and i am not saying it necessary means spending more money, but maybe even spending less money, but more effectively.

jd

[theHawk]

but it ends up costing you more, on average 24k a person in jail per year there, and RI was 44k a year....that is the way it is now, and unless major changes take place across our country, we will spend more on incarceration than on educating our children in each and every state.... THAT is just unacceptable to me!

So, i guess i stick with something has to be done, and i am not saying it necessary means spending more money, but maybe even spending less money, but more effectively.

jd

You're working on the assumption that spending more money to "educate" these thugs is actually going to work. Here's a tidbit you may not know about - some people actually don't want to learn, and don't want to work. I'd rather have tax dollars spent on prisons to keep these thugs and criminals off the streets. It also sends the message that if they turn to crime they will do the time.

There is really only two things that tax dollars should be going towards - National security from foreign threats, and the justice system to include prisons to keep our home grown thugs from raping and killing our citizens. The rest of the shit in our budget can be put on the chopping block, save a few federal programs.

[theHawk]

we will spend more on incarceration than on educating our children in each and every state.... THAT is just unacceptable to me!

Typical liberal ploy. Compare some high budget costs to that of education. First of all, the prison system keep people like PEDOPHILES off the streets from RAPING our children. But even that sort of stuff aside, education is usually funded by local districts by property taxes. It is not the job of the federal government to educate its citizenry or to provide funding for it.

[manu1959]

Wow, very nice. I guess it's not possible that the majority of illegal aliens come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes. No way Jose! It would downright rational to say something like that!

you mean immigration felon.....and how can the job be ligitimate if the person is not a citizen and no one is paying taxes on this job to fund the programs this person is using....

[JohnDoe]

You're working on the assumption that spending more money to "educate" these thugs is actually going to work. Here's a tidbit you may not know about - some people actually don't want to learn, and don't want to work. I'd rather have tax dollars spent on prisons to keep these thugs and criminals off the streets. It also sends the message that if they turn to crime they will do the time.

No, I am not making the assumption that it will cost more to make our educational system stronger and more effective for those with less or for those with more....

And when you say that some kids just don't want to learn...

I say how come?

What in their lives have made them this way and what, if anything, can we do to change it? I know, this might sound like some sappy girl thing or liberal thing, but I honestly believe that if we do not figure out a way to get to the root of the problem then we will continue to waste tax dollars incarcerating more and more Americans and making our taxes go higher and higher and higher, and more to be spent on us incarcerating these people than we spend on our entire educational system state by state....?

That is JUST PLAIN WRONG, the hawk, and i can't get over that...

besides the fact that law abiding, tax pay citizens deserve more....more than locking people up, but a community that is safe in the first place, with low crime rates.....and unless the root conditions of crime are addressed we are wasting our money imo.

jd

[manu1959]

No, I am not making the assumption that it will cost more to make our educational system stronger and more effective for those with less or for those with more....

And when you say that some kids just don't want to learn...

I say how come?

What in their lives have made them this way and what, if anything, can we do to change it? I know, this might sound like some sappy girl thing or liberal thing, but I honestly believe that if we do not figure out a way to get to the root of the problem then we will continue to waste tax dollars incarcerating more and more Americans and making our taxes go higher and higher and higher, and more to be spent on us incarcerating these people than we spend on our entire educational system state by state....?

That is JUST PLAIN WRONG, the hawk, and i can't get over that...

besides the fact that law abiding, tax pay citizens deserve more....more than locking people up, but a community that is safe in the first place, with low crime rates.....and unless the root conditions of crime are addressed we are wasting our money imo.

jd

if the parents are interested in education the kids will be......

[JohnDoe]

you mean immigration felon.....and how can the job be ligitimate if the person is not a citizen and no one is paying taxes on this job to fund the programs this person is using....
Ohhhh, but if they broke the law and stole someone's SSAN number, they are paying taxes!!! :laugh2:

[theHawk]

No, I am not making the assumption that it will cost more to make our educational system stronger and more effective for those with less or for those with more....

And when you say that some kids just don't want to learn...

I say how come?

What in their lives have made them this way and what, if anything, can we do to change it? I know, this might sound like some sappy girl thing or liberal thing, but I honestly believe that if we do not figure out a way to get to the root of the problem then we will continue to waste tax dollars incarcerating more and more Americans and making our taxes go higher and higher and higher, and more to be spent on us incarcerating these people than we spend on our entire educational system state by state....?

That is JUST PLAIN WRONG, the hawk, and i can't get over that...

besides the fact that law abiding, tax pay citizens deserve more....more than locking people up, but a community that is safe in the first place, with low crime rates.....and unless the root conditions of crime are addressed we are wasting our money imo.

jd

I already gave you the answer to 'why' they throw away their education. I said its based on their thug culture that they grow up in. When are you going to get it through your head, we don't have to do anything, they are the ones that have to change themselves.

Now, I agree with you that its unsettling how much the prison system costs taxpayers. But what is your solution? Cut federal spending and free half the inmates early from their sentences? Personally I think we should make the prisoners pay off their own imprisonment, but libs like you would scream that its "slave labor."

[theHawk]

Ohhhh, but if they broke the law and stole someone's SSAN number, they are paying taxes!!! :laugh2:

No, it means they are collecting taxes and welfare checks. WTF are you thinking? :poke:

[manu1959]

Ohhhh, but if they broke the law and stole someone's SSAN number, they are paying taxes!!! :laugh2:


actually they employer would be they would have to file a tax return to pay taxes....

[JohnDoe]

if the parents are interested in education the kids will be......Right.

That solves nothing when these kids have parents that have already rejected education themselves, or they had conditions in school that were intollerable and not pleasing....resulting in rejecting it, or got pregnant....and walked away... :(

This does begin with the family unit, I agree, but most of these kids don't have a family unit, a mom and a dad married or committed to eachother...

So, I suppose it begins there...the root of the problem, that is....

now what the heck to do to make it change is beyond me at the moment, but I am a never say never kind of gal...everything is possible, if you try hard enough! :)

jd

[manu1959]

Right.

That solves nothing when these kids have parents that have already rejected education themselves, or they had conditions in school that were intollerable and not pleasing....resulting in rejecting it, or got pregnant....and walked away... :(

This does begin with the family unit, I agree, but most of these kids don't have a family unit, a mom and a dad married or committed to eachother...

So, I suppose it begins there...the root of the problem, that is....

now what the heck to do to make it change is beyond me at the moment, but I am a never say never kind of gal...everything is possible, if you try hard enough! :)

jd

maybe mr smith will pass a law that parents must get a license and sign a contract that they will stay together and raise their kids properly....

[JohnDoe]

actually they employer would be they would have to file a tax return to pay taxes....
no, they would have to file a tax return if they wanted to get some of the automatically withdrawn income taxes their employer took from them, before they got their net pay...right?

Anyway, I was just joking and kidding around when i made that comment to you.... kinda playing on them having to commit identity theft in order to be squared away on their taxes...

so they didn't break the law in not paying taxes but they did break the law by stealing another's identity... criminals either way...

jd

[manu1959]

no, they would have to file a tax return if they wanted to get some of the automatically withdrawn income taxes their employer took from them, before they got their net pay...right?

Anyway, I was just joking and kidding around when i made that comment to you.... kinda playing on them having to commit identity theft in order to be squared away on their taxes...

so they didn't break the law in not paying taxes but they did break the law by stealing another's identity... criminals either way...

jd

actually you could take a job ..... max out your deductions.... collect your pay.....an simply never file a tax return....eventually the irs shows up at your bosses door to garnish your wages and then you disapear....thus the individual never pays taxes directy ..... steal another ss number and do it again ....

[Trigg]

Right.

That solves nothing when these kids have parents that have already rejected education themselves, or they had conditions in school that were intolerable and not pleasing....resulting in rejecting it, or got pregnant....and walked away... :(

This does begin with the family unit, I agree, but most of these kids don't have a family unit, a mom and a dad married or committed to eachother...

So, I suppose it begins there...the root of the problem, that is....

now what the heck to do to make it change is beyond me at the moment, but I am a never say never kind of gal...everything is possible, if you try hard enough! :)

jd

People have to decide for themselves to change things. That's just the way it is, some people just have to hit rock bottom before they decide to fix their lives.

It's just not about throwing money at the problem since city schools already spend more per child than rural schools. Mentoring programs and getting kids in after school activities are the best way to keep them out of trouble.

The parents have to stand up and take control of the children they're bringing into this world. Stop glamorizing rappers and their murdering culture. Stop letting their kids listen to that crap, stop letting them dress like prison inmates (baggy pants down to their ass crack), most of all make sure they go to school.

If the parents fail to do their job at least they can have the decency to not show up on the news screaming about how innocent their "baby" is and how he just couldn't have done what the cops are accusing him of.

[Mr. P]

One in every 100 American adults is in prison. One in every 36 Hispanic Americans is in prison. One in every 15 Black Americans is in prison. All according to the Today Show of course ;) The majority is made up of minority members (Blacks, Hispanics, etc.) who also happen to make up the majority of the poor class.

Who also happen to be the ones that commit the majority of the crime.

[Mr. P]

Wow, very nice. I guess it's not possible that the majority of illegal aliens come here to work legitimate jobs and not to commit crimes. No way Jose! It would downright rational to say something like that!

They committed a crime by coming here illegally. What makes you think they're law abiding?

[Gaffer]

Let me clear up a few things. Illegal aliens that commit crimes in the US will do the prison time before being deported. And after being deported they usually come back and do more crimes until caught again.

The hardcore criminals are not nice guys who just made a mistake. They are selfish, greedy, crafty people that know how to use the system and don't care who they hurt in the process of getting what they want. They are never sorry for anything they do, they are sorry they got caught. They know how to play the kind compassionate people and use them to their advantage. They have absolutely NO feelings for anyone or anything but themselves. It's a selfishness most people can't even conceive of. They have no emotions. They don't get rehabilitated, they just wait out their time so they can start fresh with new knowledge of how to avoid being caught again.

Most people never come in contact with these sort, or if they did, they didn't know it. This sort of criminal makes up maybe 30% of the prison population. The rest just chose the wrong road thinking it was the easy way, and others just made mistakes. (My own percentage based of personal experience)

As for the causes of crime. A over tolerant society, music, movies, TV, and video games that all glorify criminal activity. Throw in living conditions, poor parenting and disrespect for authority and you have the recipe for disaster.

I won't even go into the council members and mayors elected to keep the police from doing their jobs in the inner cities.

My opinion is based on two and a half years working at a maximum security prison and eight and a half years on a sheriff's department.

[Hagbard Celine]

Who also happen to be the ones that commit the majority of the crime.

It's a vicious cycle! :rolleyes: Derr, that's the premise of my post genius. Thanks for restating it for me though.


They committed a crime by coming here illegally. What makes you think they're law abiding?

Other than the speeding ticket-esque crime of crossing over an invisible line, what makes you think they're all committing crimes and not say, picking spinach or cleaning your hotel room?

[actsnoblemartin]

because their willing to steal social security numbers to work, or work under the table, and work for slave wages, that makes it ok?

are you really that stupid?


It's a vicious cycle! :rolleyes: Derr, that's the premise of my post genius. Thanks for restating it for me though.



Other than the speeding ticket-esque crime of crossing over an invisible line, what makes you think they're all committing crimes and not say, picking spinach or cleaning your hotel room?

[actsnoblemartin]

in his liberal open borders mind, their is no crime, no bad guy or good guy

he is an idiot


They committed a crime by coming here illegally. What makes you think they're law abiding?

[Mr. P]

It's a vicious cycle! :rolleyes: Derr, that's the premise of my post genius. Thanks for restating it for me though.

So is being rich. Which would you choose?


Other than the speeding ticket-esque crime of crossing over an invisible line, what makes you think they're all committing crimes and not say, picking spinach or cleaning your hotel room?

They're illegal, I don't give a shit what they pick or clean.

[Yurt]

i have not read the whole thread. part/quarter time i do work for a guy that does post conviction law in CA. let me tell you, our prison system is screwed. the prison systems efforts at rehabilitation are repugnant. i am sick and tired inmates getting let go with no rehabilitation and lo and behold, surprise, they wind right back up in prison.

The way i see it - choices:

1. improve rehabilitation so this guys/gals have some education/skill that can be put to use on the outside. more, much more, victim abuse sensativity education. if a guy is in for beating his wife, them he takes classes on what the impact of that does, over and over.

2. more death penalty and less time going throught the automatic appeal process. its a joke. guys on death row for over 20 years. sure, it is an imperfect system in an imperfect world, but if you want to stop extreme violent crime, then death deters, no doubt.

3. much harsher sentences than merely doing time in a cell with TV, radio and 3 squares. you steal something for solely pecuniary gain, e.g., not for survival, you get a finger chopped off. less harsh than a hand which can leave the citizen less useful to the borg...er, government, but trust me, you will only have so many (:)) repeat afingers... er, offenders.

that was my blog...short version

[Mr. P]

i have not read the whole thread. part/quarter time i do work for a guy that does post conviction law in CA. let me tell you, our prison system is screwed. the prison systems efforts at rehabilitation are repugnant. i am sick and tired inmates getting let go with no rehabilitation and lo and behold, surprise, they wind right back up in prison.

The way i see it - choices:

1. improve rehabilitation so this guys/gals have some education/skill that can be put to use on the outside. more, much more, victim abuse sensativity education. if a guy is in for beating his wife, them he takes classes on what the impact of that does, over and over.

2. more death penalty and less time going throught the automatic appeal process. its a joke. guys on death row for over 20 years. sure, it is an imperfect system in an imperfect world, but if you want to stop extreme violent crime, then death deters, no doubt.

3. much harsher sentences than merely doing time in a cell with TV, radio and 3 squares. you steal something for solely pecuniary gain, e.g., not for survival, you get a finger chopped off. less harsh than a hand which can leave the citizen less useful to the borg...er, government, but trust me, you will only have so many (:)) repeat afingers... er, offenders.

that was my blog...short version

In 1980 I had two Saudi Air force flight students. I talked with them about their public executions by beheading. I asked if it was effective, the answer was immediate...."we have very little crime".

[DragonStryk72]

if the parents are interested in education the kids will be......

Some of the prevailing problem is, yes, lack of parental involvement, but some of these parents, despite wanting to be involved, quite simply don't have the time to be involved, working multiple jobs to make ends meet.

Now, aside from that, the teachers that work in those schools are being completely overwhelmed by sheer force of numbers, combined with unnecessary federal regulation, adding further to the workload. As well, you have the difficulty that, since the good teachers can go pretty much wherever they want, that many times, these schools are forced to hold onto bad teachers, if only because there is no one to take up that spot should they be fired.

[DragonStryk72]

It's a vicious cycle! :rolleyes: Derr, that's the premise of my post genius. Thanks for restating it for me though.



Other than the speeding ticket-esque crime of crossing over an invisible line, what makes you think they're all committing crimes and not say, picking spinach or cleaning your hotel room?

I understand what you're saying, but there is a victim: The unemployed American citizen, and the Taxpaying American citizen. Don't hand me that "they do the jobs Americans won't do" spiel, I've heard it, but the fact is, Americans are willing to put up with a hell of alot. And yes, a number of illegals are also using government programs that they are in no way planning to help pay into.

Now, that said, prosecuting the individual illegal is useless, like trying to clear a beach one grain of sand at a time. you need to go after the ones who are creating this problem, the employers of the illegals, if there is to be a difference.

At the same time, we need to offer new paths to citizenship, including military service (I'm fairly willing to welcome any newcomer who's willing to help defend the country), or through governement contract work in devestated areas, such as in New Orleans, where massive rebuilding is still needed even now.

[diuretic]

In 1980 I had two Saudi Air force flight students. I talked with them about their public executions by beheading. I asked if it was effective, the answer was immediate...."we have very little crime".

But would you want to live there?

[Yurt]

But would you want to live there?

i think that has more to do with saudi great record of religious freedom, don't you? ;)

we used to hang folks in public executions here and people came in droves to the US

[diuretic]

i think that has more to do with saudi great record of religious freedom, don't you? ;)

we used to hang folks in public executions here and people came in droves to the US

It's trite but I'll say it anyway - I'd sooner live in a society that had some crime and lots of personal freedom rather than a society that had little crime and a repressive culture. Obvious I know.

And the folks who came to the US in droves even though you had public executions - everything's relative, they probably didn't even have trials in their home country, they were trading up! :coffee:

[Hagbard Celine]

I understand what you're saying, but there is a victim: The unemployed American citizen, and the Taxpaying American citizen. Don't hand me that "they do the jobs Americans won't do" spiel, I've heard it, but the fact is, Americans are willing to put up with a hell of alot. And yes, a number of illegals are also using government programs that they are in no way planning to help pay into.

Now, that said, prosecuting the individual illegal is useless, like trying to clear a beach one grain of sand at a time. you need to go after the ones who are creating this problem, the employers of the illegals, if there is to be a difference.

At the same time, we need to offer new paths to citizenship, including military service (I'm fairly willing to welcome any newcomer who's willing to help defend the country), or through governement contract work in devestated areas, such as in New Orleans, where massive rebuilding is still needed even now.

American unemployed? These are the same people you and others on the site rail against all the time to stop drawing unemployment and welfare benefits and for being too lazy to get off their sofa, stop holding out for that "management position" and get a job--the jobs real Americans won't do. But you have a problem with the "illegal" people who actually do the jobs. :dunno:
It seems to me that most Conservatives have conflicting attitudes about a lot of things--just an observation.
I know for a fact that most evangelical Christians will go to church on Sunday and sing Hallelujah in agreeance with loving their fellow man and then go out to lunch at Ryans afterward and gripe about how we need to just build a wall so that illegals crossing the border will just die in the desert! (I've actually heard that conversation on a mission trip I went on. The guy who said it was the same guy I saw at an Ash Wednesday service two days earlier praising Jesus!) The fact that those "illegals" who we'd be better off just shooting in the desert are only trying to make it into a place where they can make good money to feed and clothe their children never enters into the thought process.
I think you're right about fining employers. That cut the problem off at the quick. But no politicians have the balls to do it.