Recreating Islam

[canavar]

From British BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7264903.stm)

Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.
The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.
As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.
But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.
It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.

'Reformation'
Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.
Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.
Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.
The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.
An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.
"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.
"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.
Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.

Revolutionary
Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.
But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.
Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.
"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.
"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."
The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.
Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".
So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.

Original spirit
Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.
As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".
They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.
One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.
She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.
"There are honour killings," she explains.
"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.
"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."

'New Islam'
According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.
He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.
"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.
"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "
Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.
Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."
Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.
They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.
"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.
"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

[Hagbard Celine]

Good. Hopefully this will nudge the Muslim world to turn the corner into modernity.

[canavar]

Good. Hopefully this will nudge the Muslim world to turn the corner into modernity.

Hopefully. Redefinition and cleaning of Hadiths is clearly intended for the communities that do not live in Turkey, as this understanding is already practiced by Department of Religious Affairs since its foundation in 1924 by Atatürk.

This now is a scientific work of Researchers, Theologians, Forensists and other Specialists. Also not only from Turkey, as this Felix Koerner quoted in the article for example is a German who works at Ankara University.
Based on a comprehensive scientific study of the Hadiths, where all findings are open to other Islamic Theologians in other countries, there is not much what Fundamentalists can say against.
Contra is to be given by scientific way to vitiate the work. This is nothing for backstreet preachers or preachers hideing somewhere in caves with limited educational level.

The forensic examination of the Hadiths are part of this project. So i assume all original Hadiths are in Turkey. I can not verify that, but it is likely, as the oldest Koran in the World, the sword of Muhammed, the beard of Muhammed and other relics are all in Turkey at Topkapi museum which were collected by the Sultans. As after Ottoman Empire there was no Islamic Power again it is likely that the Hadiths were also collected in Istanbul.

[canavar]

The issue is being covered for some years now in newspapers. Coverage of big newspapers can not be a criteria for anything, but it shows that this work being done is actually being followed for years and is no short-living crazy idea.
From 2006:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401381.html

The work will be published finally this year in 2008.

[nevadamedic]

I know how to redo the Muslim religion, it is called a Nuclear Bomb.

Mecca Weather Forcast for Friday. Mushroom Cloud with partial sunnis and scattered shiites. :salute:

[glockmail]

....They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones... No wonder the religion is so fucked up.

[canavar]

I know how to redo the Muslim religion, it is called a Nuclear Bomb.

Mecca Weather Forcast for Friday. Mushroom Cloud with partial sunnis and scattered shiites. :salute:

The world might not seem so easy as it is being wished out from an american province. The least problem you will have to worry about will be a definite crash of an economy which is heading into a recession by Saudis - whose country you want to nuke - withdraws their capital away from USA. Off course this is not only limited to Saudi Arabia and in no way limited to economic consequence.
To talk about those other consequences is not worthy, as your post itself is not worthy to be taken serious.

[Nukeman]

I know how to redo the Muslim religion, it is called a Nuclear Bomb.

Mecca Weather Forcast for Friday. Mushroom Cloud with partial sunnis and scattered shiites. :salute:
Are you really this fucking stupid???? Canavar comes to this sight to tell us about a step in the right direction for the Islamic religion and YOU turn it into a personal attack on all Muslims. How would you feel if Muslims came on this sight and proposed the nukeing of Vatican City, even if your not Catholic there are a huge number of Christian artifacts in there.

I will be one of the first to say that the Islamic faith has stalled in the "dark ages" but that doesn't mean it is not capable of coming into the modern world. I see this as a very good first step for them and as such it should be ENCOURAGED not ridiculed, you are so dense you cant even see that!!!

[Gaffer]

The big test will be getting the masses to go along with it. Breaking the hold of the fundamentalists. And it still remains to be seen what is rewritten and reinterpreted. Not to mention the time involved in spreading these new teachings.

Reformation of islam is about 700 years overdue. More than likely it will just create another split in the religion and more blood shed.

[manu1959]

funny i was arguing a similar point about redemption of the muslim religion a few weeks back and was roundly shouted down here......odd they are taking the very steps i was told were not possible....

[Gaffer]

funny i was arguing a similar point about redemption of the muslim religion a few weeks back and was roundly shouted down here......odd they are taking the very steps i was told were not possible....

Not sure it will be possible. A primary factor will be if they allow tolerance. The biggest problem is it will take about 200 years to make any real effect in the muslim world.

the qoran will remain the same. It's kind of like changing the new testament while leaving the old one alone. I won't hold my breath while waiting for it to work.

[manu1959]

Not sure it will be possible. A primary factor will be if they allow tolerance. The biggest problem is it will take about 200 years to make any real effect in the muslim world.

the qoran will remain the same. It's kind of like changing the new testament while leaving the old one alone. I won't hold my breath while waiting for it to work.

many said the reformation wouldn't work....

[diuretic]

This is interesting. The only authoritative text I've read on Islam is "Islam" by Alfred Guillaume. In the final part of the book he makes the point that Islam was (I think the book was written in the 1960s) at a crossroads, forced to choose between conservatism and progressivism. Guillaume mentioned that that debate would cause ructions in the world of Islam. Interestingly enough he apparently also wrote on the Hadith and called for modernisation.

Now, it seems to me to be a good thing. Even though I'm not a religious person I respect religion in the lives of others and freeing up oneself from the stultifying effects of conservatism in religion can only be a good thing.

And to the bigots. Take it elsewhere, there are plenty of threads where you can display your intolerance and your ignorance. This one discuses a way forward but in your blind hatred for any religion other than your own religion, you try to piss all over it. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[avatar4321]

Are you really this fucking stupid???? Canavar comes to this sight to tell us about a step in the right direction for the Islamic religion and YOU turn it into a personal attack on all Muslims. How would you feel if Muslims came on this sight and proposed the nukeing of Vatican City, even if your not Catholic there are a huge number of Christian artifacts in there.

I will be one of the first to say that the Islamic faith has stalled in the "dark ages" but that doesn't mean it is not capable of coming into the modern world. I see this as a very good first step for them and as such it should be ENCOURAGED not ridiculed, you are so dense you cant even see that!!!

i know you are being rhetorical with the original question. so I am going to ignore it.

You are right. this is a step in the right direction. And i have to highly question the moral authority of someone who speaks of doing worse things then the extremists do.

[Kathianne]

funny i was arguing a similar point about redemption of the muslim religion a few weeks back and was roundly shouted down here......odd they are taking the very steps i was told were not possible....

I doubt I shouted, if I responded. I hope Turkey is more influential in the ME than I think. I would hope something like it would spread, as did Sayyid Quth's writings decades ago.

[canavar]

The big test will be getting the masses to go along with it. Breaking the hold of the fundamentalists. And it still remains to be seen what is rewritten and reinterpreted. Not to mention the time involved in spreading these new teachings.

Reformation of islam is about 700 years overdue. More than likely it will just create another split in the religion and more blood shed.

The point is, that there will be a collection of methods and explanation that makes the decisions understandable. This will be a scientific work.
The core motive of the work is to ensure gender equality. This is being stated by "Directorate of Religious Affairs" (DIYANET) very clearly in full knowledge of manipulation of Hadiths by men societies putting words and actions in the mouth of the prophet to declass women.
So if Diyanet just says this and this Hadith is manipulation it is just a claim.

This work will initiate minimum a debate where this debate has to be proceeded also in scientific way by everyone who thinks of him he has to say something against. Some second class Imams somewhere in Tora-Bora with bare foot sandals without the neccessary infrastructure to confute the work can not be taken serious. For example confuteing forensic datas, which will document that Hadiths are not dated back to the times of the Prophet but where created centuries after with the motive of declass women into the society.

The other point is, that it will be desastrous if the work will be confutable. So I assume that the work will be published that it is not confuteable. For this Diyanet has every potential it demanded for its work.

Diyanet has the 3rd biggest budget in the Turkish state of all Ministries and Institutions.


Diyanet, a 75,000-member Sunni-dominated bureaucracy surpassed in size and budget only by the education system and the armed forces.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0410240391oct24,0,5569211.story


Faculties of Divinities, Academics all they have. And for forensic or other works it is easy to demand inter-institutional workshare from State Universities.
So the spectrum of Diyanet is huge and I assume that this work will be not confuteable.

The other question is the question of penetration of this work into the Muslim world. If there is road map and what its time estimatation is i do not know. I am not involved in this things.
But we have to think, that a state has more possibilities then a private organisazion or even private persons.
So a multi-facetted road map can be implementated. For example through the OIC which represents 57 States with Muslim majority population and which is headed by Turkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Islamic_Conference

Other things are inter-country exchange of Diyanet itself with the Directorates of Religious Affairs of other countries. In the end it is all subdued to economical power. With economic expansion there comes also cultural expansion.

In the end, I do not know and can neither predict the impact of the work nor its distribution into societies which need it most. We have to wait. what is clear is that the work will be published this year and there is many options to distribute the work.
Channels like Al-Jazeera etc. will discuss about. Liberals in Muslim World will discuss, Turkey will distribute and finally everyone who wants to confute the work must be able to do so by scientific approach. Because talk is cheap.
This alone will initiate a dynamic.

[Yurt]

this will be interesting. i predict the sunnis and wahabis will almost universally reject this outright (they compromise 90% of "muslims"). the wahabis who control the most holy cities to islam will not allow this and IMO many traditional sunnis will wholly disavow most, if not all "new" interpretations.

the tricky thing with islam is that any, any type of "new" idea or interpretation might be seen as "invention" of new religious ideas which is forbidden in islam. also, there is simply no reformation of islam's goal to conquer the world and subjugate non muslims as dhimmis. It is a prophecy for them that this will in fact happen before the end times.

[Yurt]

without linking another site, i offer this one post which is representative of the muslim attitude towards this:



Just what makes these people think they are qualified to decide just what Prophet Muhammad said or didn't say? None of them are qualified in the field of Hadith to even attempt such a thing.

What a joke. They just want to change the religion to suit their own desires.
Yet they call themselves muslims. Its a disgrace, them and what they are doing.

[diuretic]

without linking another site, i offer this one post which is representative of the muslim attitude towards this:

That's not a "Muslim" mindset, that's a human mindset. Heck it could be someone trying to change the rules of football getting a mouthful.

People who resist change are called "conservative".

Conservative Muslims will oppose these changes.

Conservative Christians oppose things such as female priests.

Conservative Catholics oppose nearly everything that anyone proposes, even mild changes such as not requiring celibacy of its priests (all males of course because the Catholic church itself opposes female priests).

So, it's probably more accurate to describe the response as "conservative Muslim", don't you think?

[manu1959]

That's not a "Muslim" mindset, that's a human mindset. Heck it could be someone trying to change the rules of football getting a mouthful.
People who resist change are called "conservative".
Conservative Muslims will oppose these changes.
Conservative Christians oppose things such as female priests.
Conservative Catholics oppose nearly everything that anyone proposes, even mild changes such as not requiring celibacy of its priests (all males of course because the Catholic church itself opposes female priests).
So, it's probably more accurate to describe the response as "conservative Muslim", don't you think?

is it bad to conserve........a conservative would be in favour of conserving....

[Kathianne]

is it bad to conserve........a conservative would be in favour of conserving....

It makes sense to me to do what one can: recycling paper and electronics/glass/plastics. Not polluting the lades.

[manu1959]

It makes sense to me to do what one can: recycling paper and electronics/glass/plastics. Not polluting the lades.

i know the lades hate it :poke:

[diuretic]

is it bad to conserve........a conservative would be in favour of conserving....

As a countervailing force to progressivism it's useful. It creates moderates - moderates are people like me :D

[diuretic]

i know the lades hate it :poke:

The rivels aren't keen on it either :cool:

[manu1959]

The rivels aren't keen on it either :cool:

what do you think the watlans would say......

[Kathianne]

i know the lades hate it :poke:

LOL! How often I mistake a d for a k. My bad.

[manu1959]

LOL! How often I mistake a d for a k. My bad.

you should type with two fingers like i do....plus i can't spell a lick......montessori school and learned to read phonetically....

[Kathianne]

you should type with two fingers like i do....plus i can't spell a lick......montessori school and learned to read phonetically....

Montessori is funny that way. Me on the other hand, a victim of touch typing, Red fox and fences and such. I learned my lessons. :laugh2:

[Yurt]

That's not a "Muslim" mindset, that's a human mindset. Heck it could be someone trying to change the rules of football getting a mouthful.

People who resist change are called "conservative".

Conservative Muslims will oppose these changes.

Conservative Christians oppose things such as female priests.

Conservative Catholics oppose nearly everything that anyone proposes, even mild changes such as not requiring celibacy of its priests (all males of course because the Catholic church itself opposes female priests).

So, it's probably more accurate to describe the response as "conservative Muslim", don't you think?

what would it take for you to believe?

ayat?

hadith?

muhammad is dead, so there you go.

do you want something from the quran that disproves the muslim quoter? do you want something from the hadiths that disproves the muslim quother?

--- or are you calling that muslim a liar?

[avatar4321]

this will be interesting. i predict the sunnis and wahabis will almost universally reject this outright (they compromise 90% of "muslims"). the wahabis who control the most holy cities to islam will not allow this and IMO many traditional sunnis will wholly disavow most, if not all "new" interpretations.

the tricky thing with islam is that any, any type of "new" idea or interpretation might be seen as "invention" of new religious ideas which is forbidden in islam. also, there is simply no reformation of islam's goal to conquer the world and subjugate non muslims as dhimmis. It is a prophecy for them that this will in fact happen before the end times.

im not familiar with this prophecy. Where can i find it?

[diuretic]

what do you think the watlans would say......

berble, bubble, berble, "hey who put this dirty plastic bag in here!" :coffee:

[diuretic]

Montessori is funny that way. Me on the other hand, a victim of touch typing, Red fox and fences and such. I learned my lessons. :laugh2:

Lazy brown dogs and all good men - used to drive me nuts and the bloke who taught me and my coursemates to touch-type used to slam a cane down on the desk beside us when he caught us sneaking a look under the board they put across the keyboard. Worked though! :laugh2:

[diuretic]

what would it take for you to believe?

ayat?

hadith?

muhammad is dead, so there you go.

do you want something from the quran that disproves the muslim quoter? do you want something from the hadiths that disproves the muslim quother?

--- or are you calling that muslim a liar?

Religion for me is a non-event. I ain't got a dog in anyone's hunt on that one. If someone can modernise Islam, take it from its mediaevalism and into the 21st century that's going to be a good thing. It's a step towards freeing humanity of the yolk of religion. That's an even better thing.

[Kathianne]

Lazy brown dogs and all good men - used to drive me nuts and the bloke who taught me and my coursemates to touch-type used to slam a cane down on the desk beside us when he caught us sneaking a look under the board they put across the keyboard. Worked though! :laugh2:

Hmm, sounds like my teacher too! :laugh2: