why do we pick an choose which parts of the constitution are valid and which are not

[actsnoblemartin]

The democratic party wants to ignore and take away law abiding citizens rights to own guns, but they pretend to be all for the constitution, sounds hypocritical to me, and very much like their party

Dont rely on yourself to protect you and youre family, lets us the government take care of you

[flaja]

The democratic party wants to ignore and take away law abiding citizens rights to own guns, but they pretend to be all for the constitution, sounds hypocritical to me, and very much like their party

Dont rely on yourself to protect you and youre family, lets us the government take care of you

Do you take the same view of libertarians who ignore the necessary and proper clause when it comes to things like Social Security and a federal role in public education? What about the President’s power as commander-in-chief to deploy U.S. troops even when Congress hasn’t formally declared war?

[Dilloduck]

The democratic party wants to ignore and take away law abiding citizens rights to own guns, but they pretend to be all for the constitution, sounds hypocritical to me, and very much like their party

Dont rely on yourself to protect you and youre family, lets us the government take care of you

The US Constitution is like the secular Bible. People interpret it differently.

[Hobbit]

Do you take the same view of libertarians who ignore the necessary and proper clause when it comes to things like Social Security and a federal role in public education? What about the President’s power as commander-in-chief to deploy U.S. troops even when Congress hasn’t formally declared war?

If you actually read the Constitution, you'd know that the necessary and proper, or elastic, clause, was never meant to give the feds that kind of power. In context, it gives the feds the power to do whatever is 'necessary and proper' to carry out their duties as outlined elsewhere in the Constitution. Instead, the big government hacks have used it as an excuse for every government program under the sun.

[flaja]

If you actually read the Constitution, you'd know that the necessary and proper, or elastic, clause, was never meant to give the feds that kind of power.

Says who? Who ever said that the elastic clause wasn't meant to fit the times so if the government needed to regulate more in the future than it is now, it could?


In context, it gives the feds the power to do whatever is 'necessary and proper' to carry out their duties as outlined elsewhere in the Constitution.

The elastic clause reads, “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

It does not say duties. It says powers. Congress may not have a duty to create a social security system, but it certainly has the power to do so as a way of regulating interstate/international commerce.

[82Marine89]

Do you take the same view of libertarians who ignore the necessary and proper clause when it comes to things like Social Security and a federal role in public education? What about the President’s power as commander-in-chief to deploy U.S. troops even when Congress hasn’t formally declared war?

Post that clause for all of us to read. :link:

[Kathianne]

Post that clause for all of us to read. :link:

It was already posted:


The elastic clause reads, “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

[5stringJeff]

It does not say duties. It says powers. Congress may not have a duty to create a social security system, but it certainly has the power to do so as a way of regulating interstate/international commerce.

Wealth redistribution has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

[flaja]

Wealth redistribution has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

Where does the wealth come from if not commerce i.e., the exchange of wealth for goods and services?

[manu1959]

Wealth redistribution has nothing to do with interstate commerce.

he has 40 units of history credits and a biology degree ... i wouldn't argue with him....

[glockmail]

Where does the wealth come from if not commerce i.e., the exchange of wealth for goods and services?
Tortured logic.

Where's that picture of the guys head up his ass? It's needed here to describe this fool. :pee:

[April15]

why do we pick an choose which parts of the constitution are valid and which are not seems like a good question for the current administration and for Rayguns.

[manu1959]

why do we pick an choose which parts of the constitution are valid and which are not seems like a good question for the current administration and for Rayguns.

or people pushing national health care or social security....

[Abbey Marie]

or people pushing national health care or social security....

or abortion rights.

[pegwinn]

Do you take the same view of libertarians who ignore the necessary and proper clause when it comes to things like Social Security and a federal role in public education? What about the President’s power as commander-in-chief to deploy U.S. troops even when Congress hasn’t formally declared war?

Emphasis added. When did the President deploy troops even when...... Warning this is a trap. I'll check back on tuesday after work.


Says who? Who ever said that the elastic clause wasn't meant to fit the times so if the government needed to regulate more in the future than it is now, it could?

The elastic clause reads, “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

It does not say duties. It says powers. Congress may not have a duty to create a social security system, but it certainly has the power to do so as a way of regulating interstate/international commerce.

I emphasized the part you are misunderstanding. Query: How do you personally rationalize regulating interstate commerce with social security?

C'ya tomorrow

[DragonStryk72]

Honestly.... because we let them, hell, we put them in office to do just that, Republican or Democrat, you've elected someone at this point that is basically using his office to breakdown one Constitutional right or another.

Right now, our rights to privacy, as well as cases of first and second amendment rights, are being impinged. the one most don't think about is the 10th Amendment, which is basically states rights. No Child Left Behind, where the federal government steps in, in order to regulate state run education, is a prime example. The federal government technically has no right to this, but since no one will just call it what it is, we're a bit screwed.

A question that comes up alot these days: "Why don't the _____ have _____ impeached?" well, why don't you have him impeached? Seriously, you have the right, as a citizen of this country, to bring the charges against him, you don't need the democrats to do it. Hell, you can bounce pretty much any public official from office, you just need to talk to the other like minded individuals to do it.

You will NEVER hear this from ANY politician, and why? Because then you might decide you don't want their leadership, they want you to feel like you need them, their "vision", in order to get things done. So, really, if we want to change things, then, quite simply, we should change them.

[flaja]

Tortured logic.

How so? Where does money come from if not through commerce?

[flaja]

Emphasis added. When did the President deploy troops even when...... Warning this is a trap. I'll check back on tuesday after work.

Most recently this has happened when the President sent troops into Panama (1989 or was it 1990?) and Grenada (1983), and I'm not sure that the President had any kind of congressional approval before he invaded Afghanistan in 2001, but such approval may have been lost in the flurry of legislation that came after 9-11.


I emphasized the part you are misunderstanding. Query: How do you personally rationalize regulating interstate commerce with social security?

C'ya tomorrow

I do not approve of Social Security because it is a bad program. But I don't question Congress' power to make this law because it does regulate commerce.

[flaja]

he has 40 units of history credits and a biology degree ... i wouldn't argue with him....

What kind of education do you have?

[glockmail]

How so? Where does money come from if not through commerce? It doesn't fucking matter.

[glockmail]

he has 40 units of history credits and a biology degree ... i wouldn't argue with him....:lol:

[Hobbit]

flaja, I've got some reading assignments for you. First and foremost:


The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.

Notice anything unique about that first part about the President being the commander of the military? Anything? How about the part where it doesn't say anything about him requiring the consent of Congress to do so, and since it specifies in all other sections that he requires the consent of a house of Congress, that means that commanding the troops requires ZERO congressional consent. None. Nada. You can whine all you want, but when Bush asked Congress' permission to go to Iraq and Afghanistan, it was simply to be polite.

Next reading assignment (bold indicates relevancy or emphasis):


regulate
One entry found.

regulate

Main Entry:
reg·u·late Listen to the pronunciation of regulate
Pronunciation:
\ˈre-gyə-ˌlāt also ˈrā-\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
reg·u·lat·ed; reg·u·lat·ing
Etymology:
Middle English, from Late Latin regulatus, past participle of regulare, from Latin regula rule
Date:
15th century

1 a: to govern or direct according to rule b (1): to bring under the control of law or constituted authority (2): to make regulations for or concerning <regulate the industries of a country>
2: to bring order, method, or uniformity to <regulate one's habits>
3: to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of <regulate the pressure of a tire>

Main Entry:
1in·ter·state Listen to the pronunciation of 1interstate
Pronunciation:
\ˌin-tər-ˈstāt\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1844

: of, connecting, or existing between two or more states especially of the United States <interstate commerce>


Main Entry:
1com·merce Listen to the pronunciation of 1commerce
Pronunciation:
\ˈkä-(ˌ)mərs\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, from Latin commercium, from com- + merc-, merx merchandise
Date:
1537

1 : social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments
2 : the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale involving transportation from place to place
3 : sexual intercourse

Explain to me exactly how Social Security brings under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale between two or more states. Explain to me how welfare brings under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale between two or more states. Explain to me how crop subsidies bring under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale between two or more states. Explain to me how handouts for so-called 'art' bring under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale between two or more states.

Commerce does not equal money, regulate does not mean anything, and interstate does not mean anywhere in the country. Unless it is bringing under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale between two or more states, any act Congress passes using the interstate commerce law is unconstitutional. Hell, even if you took 'interstate' out of that, Social Security would STILL be unconstitutional since the government handing somebody money has nothing to do with bringing under the control of law the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale.

[Abbey Marie]

What kind of education do you have?

:popcorn:

[manu1959]

What kind of education do you have?

why do you care.....you have a biology degree and 40 history credits....you obviously are the the most qualified person .... i tried to tell everyone not to challenge you....they won't listen....

[Little-Acorn]

Where does the wealth come from if not commerce i.e., the exchange of wealth for goods and services?

If I come from England, and I murder somebody, will you throw all of England in jail?

No. Where I come from is irrelevant to my act.

And the fact that money comes from commerce, has no connection to some (fictional) authority of Congress to take it from me.

The Const says that Congress can levy and collect taxes only for specific, listed purposes. Wealth redistribution isn't one of them.

"Wealth redistribution" is flatly unconstitutional. This tenet is one of the most ignored in the Constitution, next to the 10th and 2nd amendments.

[Kathianne]

What kind of education do you have?

So does your education make you more knowledgeable? A few, :rolleyes: have more education than you. So, what schools did you get these hours and degree? As long as were going down the bonafides route?

[Said1]

why do you care.....you have a biology degree and 40 history credits....you obviously are the the most qualified person .... i tried to tell everyone not to challenge you....they won't listen....

Just out of curiosity, how close to a degree is 40 credit hours?

[Hobbit]

Just out of curiosity, how close to a degree is 40 credit hours?

Most degrees require around 120 credit hours for graduation.

[Said1]

Most degrees require around 120 credit hours for graduation.

So 40 would be something like 4 classes? How many credits hours would one class that runs from Sept-April be worth?

[Abbey Marie]

So 40 would be something like 4 classes? How many credits hours would one class that runs from Sept-April be worth?

I would say 8.

[Said1]

I would say 8.

Thanks. Helps paint a broader picuture.

[glockmail]

So 40 would be something like 4 classes? How many credits hours would one class that runs from Sept-April be worth? Most classes are 3 credits. "Seminar" or "lab" typically adds one more. So Bozo probably took 12 or 13 history courses. I trust that you are as awe-struck with his resulting intellect as the rest of us.

[Kathianne]

Just out of curiosity, how close to a degree is 40 credit hours?

While not exact, a rule of thumb is that if the class meets for an hour per day, for 12 weeks, 1 hr. So a 4 hour class meets for 4 days or 4 hours per week. Let's give him 10 classes. ;)

Now, not denigrating education by any means, do my degrees make me 'smarter' than someone without them? I don't think so, speaks to my interests and opportunities, no more, no less. Sure I learned a few things along the way, but perhaps less than someone that did a lot of readings out of interests or curiosity. I'm glad I earned my degrees, but have never thought I was 'smarter' than someone with a 'ahem', 9th grade education.

[pegwinn]

Most recently this has happened when the President sent troops into Panama (1989 or was it 1990?) and Grenada (1983), and I'm not sure that the President had any kind of congressional approval before he invaded Afghanistan in 2001, but such approval may have been lost in the flurry of legislation that came after 9-11.

Does the term "War Powers Act" have any significance to you? Does it apply in your examples? Why or why not?

Additionally, you specifically didn't mention Iraq. Does that mean you believe the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq to be lawful and within the boundaries of the Constitution?


I do not approve of Social Security because it is a bad program. But I don't question Congress' power to make this law because it does regulate commerce.

That was not the question. I am not a college graduate, nor do I play one on TV. So perhaps I am not communicating properly. Allow me to restate the original question: Query: How do you personally rationalize regulating interstate commerce with social security?

I understand that Congress is authorised to regulate interstate commerce. Now, please explain how you can apply the interstate commerce clause to justify social security. Per your statements, there has to be a linkage there. But, for the life of me, I don't see it.

[glockmail]

.....Now, please explain how you can apply the interstate commerce clause to justify social security. Per your statements, there has to be a linkage there. But, for the life of me, I don't see it.

You and I just aren't smart enough to see the connection. Isn't it good that we have smart liberals to tell us what the COTUS means? ;)

[Said1]

Most classes are 3 credits. "Seminar" or "lab" typically adds one more. So Bozo probably took 12 or 13 history courses. I trust that you are as awe-struck with his resulting intellect as the rest of us.

Like I said, I was just curious.Not so much about flo's ejumaccatioinn, just in general. Here, universities typically give one credit per class that lasts throughout the school year - half for 12 weeks. Some give more, although no extra for for seminar or lab - that I know of.

[pegwinn]

I just want to see if he can make an argument for SS based on ICC. My daughter is staying with us, is a Marine Reservist, and has a biology degree from Texas Tech. She couldn't make the argument.

But, she's known for doing dumbass things. Once she told a cop that since she looked better in her uniform than he did, he ought to PT more and write less tickets for stupid shit.

Even with such a soft spoken demeanor, the guy wrote her a ticket.

Go figure.

Oh damn, I forgot what we were talking about. :coffee:

[manu1959]

Most degrees require around 120 credit hours for graduation.

holy shit i had to take 5 unit classes every quarter which was 3 hours a day 5days a week three times a year for three years to get my degree....

and i usually carried 18 units a quarter.....for the five year program...

40 credits = 40 hrs....

[Kathianne]

holy shit i had to take 5 unit classes every quarter which was 3 hours a day 5days a week three times a year for three years to get my degree....

and i usually carried 18 units a quarter.....for the five year program...

40 credits = 40 hrs....
Architecture? I know at U of I they require 5 years for bachelor's. Seems the standards are higher. :clap:

[manu1959]

Architecture? I know at U of I they require 5 years for bachelor's. Seems the standards are higher. :clap:

yep five years for a bachelor...then three year apreticship ...then 5 day exam...then oral questioning...then you get your license....

was thinking of taking the LASTs then going to law school......just to see the difference....

edit: oh yea you had to take 15 quarters of history....which adds up to 45 credits.....LOL

[Kathianne]

yep five years for a bachelor...then three year apreticship ...then 5 day exam...then oral questioning...then you get your license....

was thinking of taking the LASTs then going to law school......just to see the difference....

edit: oh yea you had to take 15 quarters of history....which adds up to 45 credits.....LOL

I hear you, but for the record, I entered into my history degree, with nearly enough history hours to get the major, but had to complete the program for my education credentials, which is why my teaching certificate is crazy with endorsements.

I have my sociology and political science degrees. Have minors in psych, econ, British history, American history, journalism, English.

Then I picked up history, well as I said, there were duplicates for requirements, so:

endorsements: American history, civics, European history, Eastern European history, ancient history, Near East history, Far East history.

Don't you love the education teacher certification programs.

Did I mention I was 'highly qualified' by the state of Illinois?

Oh yeah, picked up my master's in education supervision. *gag*

[manu1959]

I hear you, but for the record, I entered into my history degree, with nearly enough history hours to get the major, but had to complete the program for my education credentials, which is why my teaching certificate is crazy with endorsements.

I have my sociology and political science degrees. Have minors in psych, econ, British history, American history, journalism, English.

Then I picked up history, well as I said, there were duplicates for requirements, so:

endorsements: American history, civics, European history, Eastern European history, ancient history, Near East history, Far East history.

Don't you love the education teacher certification programs.

Did I mention I was 'highly qualified' by the state of Illinois?

Oh yeah, picked up my master's in education supervision. *gag*

impressive...........

[Kathianne]

impressive...........

Not really. I've learned way more from outside readings. I'm assuming your expertise would not find the same? Sort of like a doctor, while updating is essential, the idea of a bridge or building falling down, needs to be covered from the get go. On my side of the ledger, whether or not fascism is from the right or left?

[manu1959]

Not really. I've learned way more from outside readings. I'm assuming your expertise would not find the same? Sort of like a doctor, while updating is essential, the idea of a bridge or building falling down, needs to be covered from the get go. On my side of the ledger, whether or not fascism is from the right or left?

i have a great admiration for people that can study and get degrees.....

hell i stopped buying books my last two years of university and didn't bother to study for my licensing exams.....just couldn't be bothered...

then i entered the real world .... and on the first day i realized how worthless my education had been.....the time i spent as an apprentice carpenter was far more valuable.....

[Kathianne]

i have a great admiration for people that can study and get degrees.....

hell i stopped buying books my last two years of university and didn't bother to study for my licensing exams.....just couldn't be bothered...

then i entered the real world .... and on the first day i realized how worthless my education had been.....the time i spent as an apprentice carpenter was far more valuable.....

perhaps, but I'll bet your education has some real applications, not quite true with what I've studied. :laugh2: Even the profs would agree with me. It's all about a steel butt as RMN would say. ;)

[manu1959]

perhaps, but I'll bet your education has some real applications, not quite true with what I've studied. :laugh2: Even the profs would agree with me. It's all about a steel butt as RMN would say. ;)

an architecture education is very broad based and is all about history and problem solving.....from figure drawing to statistics to foreign language to art history and physics and psychology

you know my brother majored in history at ucla....ended up working in the reagan white house then law clerked then became a hollywood agent and retired before he was 45.....i guess it depends how one applies their degree.....:laugh2:

[Kathianne]

an architecture education is very broad based and is all about history and problem solving.....from figure drawing to statistics to foreign language to art history and physics and psychology

you know my brother majored in history at ucla....ended up working in the reagan white house then law clerked then became a hollywood agent and retired before he was 45.....i guess it depends how one applies their degree.....:laugh2:

I wish I had done so in my 20's. :laugh2:

[manu1959]

I wish I had done so in my 20's. :laugh2:

i just interviewed a 58 year olde fresh out of architecture school....

[Kathianne]

i just interviewed a 58 year olde fresh out of architecture school....

Interesting. I still must believe that all of you give a damn and are taught why the pillars in Greek and Roman buildings held for so long? How about the pyramids, were the secrets ignored? I didn't think so. History is certainly important, but not as much the geometry and algebra in more current times.

Please me, give me the comparisons with politics or culture. I'd be chagrined perhaps to have missed them, but would gladly learn and make them my own.

[glockmail]

Like I said, I was just curious.Not so much about flo's ejumaccatioinn, just in general. Here, universities typically give one credit per class that lasts throughout the school year - half for 12 weeks. Some give more, although no extra for for seminar or lab - that I know of. Where's "here"?

[Said1]

Where's "here"?

Canada.

[glockmail]

Canada. A great country. Would be better if not for bilingual and that blasted health care system.

[Said1]

A great country. Would be better if not for bilingual and that blasted health care system.

Trust me, the entire country is not bilingual. You need to speak french if you want to work for the federal government, though.

And health care..........:laugh2:

[glockmail]

Trust me, the entire country is not bilingual. You need to speak french if you want to work for the federal government, though.

And health care..........:laugh2:


If its not bilingual then why do you have to speak french to work for the gub'mint?

Hopefully the US health care system will remain private so you Canucks can drive down and see a doctor when you need to.

[Said1]

If its not bilingual then why do you have to speak french to work for the gub'mint?
Because that's the rule. There are francaphones in this country. They are recognized by the federal government and have the right to be served in french when seeking federal government services.


Hopefully the US health care system will remain private so you Canucks can drive down and see a doctor when you need to.

Why would I go to the states? I just grab my health card and go (when it's not expired - lol). :shrug:

[5stringJeff]

Where does the wealth come from if not commerce i.e., the exchange of wealth for goods and services?

That's not what the regulation of interstate commerce covers. Originally, it was meant to keep states from putting tariffs on goods shipped over state lines. While it has been expanded substantially, it still has to do with the actual act of commerce and trade, not with the money made thereby.

[glockmail]

Because that's the rule. There are francaphones in this country. They are recognized by the federal government and have the right to be served in french when seeking federal government services.



Why would I go to the states? I just grab my health card and go (when it's not expired - lol). :shrug:

My impression from visiting Canada several times (used to live in Upsate NY)was that if you didn't speak French then don't bother to go to french speaking areas. Tne frencies were rude and arrogant, while the english speakers were more polite and friendly than I was used to. Two differnent cultures in the same country have to affect trade.

As long as you don't have something serious then by all means wip out that card. But if you really need something, like now, and the waiting list is too long our hospital doors welcome you and your credit card.