From Elections to Shootings: America Is Broken

[82Marine89]

It is noteworthy that the stalled Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act (FISA) renewal effort became a huge controversy, prominently headlined during this past week, as the Northern Illinois University shootings wreaked indescribable horror and tragedy on yet another progressive and enlightened college campus.

Both situations are symptomatic of a twisted modern culture, based on the perverted premised of “political correctness.” Both portend more harm to be visited on innocent Americans. And, instead of real solutions, both will virtually ensure the hasty implementation of “fixes” that invariably offers more of the liberal disease to cure its symptoms.

We are told that Steven Kazmierczak, the latest mass murderer, was not really responsible for the mayhem he caused, since he was off of his medications. Yet nobody seems to be asking why events of this nature were never rampant prior to the advent of these miracle drugs, the usage of which was necessitated in lieu of stern discipline and punishment, the standard method of managing “anti-social behavior,” back when it was simply called “evil.”

In our modern, open-minded era, grade school children are no longer expected to listen to those in authority, stay in their seats, or restrain their brutish urges. While an abundance of rules exists, young people are rarely punished for failing to submit to them. Instead, they are “diagnosed” as having physiological problems and subsequently drugged into a compliant stupor, never learning that wrong actions reap negative consequences.

Amazingly, the liberal social architects who invented this course of action incessantly tell us that, as a result of their superior approach to child rearing, things have improved. Try walking through a typical mall or sitting outside of your car in front of the local fast-food establishment while watching the current generation in action. See if you really believe such drivel.

Nevertheless, those who have created this mess, from Dr. Spock to the current cadre of “family services experts” who will instantly tear your family apart if you even hint that you might swat your badly behaving child or demand obedience to your directives for proper conduct, are emphatic in their assertions that they have made America a far nicer and less violent place. Never question those in authority, nor demand any tangible evidence to support their contentions.

Instead, accept their superior intellect and expertise or risk being labeled as “abusive,” whereupon you will feel the intensity of their self-righteous fury.

Click for full text... (http://www.therealitycheck.org/2008/02/20/from-elections-to-shootings-america-is-broken/)

[Dilloduck]

It is noteworthy that the stalled Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act (FISA) renewal effort became a huge controversy, prominently headlined during this past week, as the Northern Illinois University shootings wreaked indescribable horror and tragedy on yet another progressive and enlightened college campus.

Both situations are symptomatic of a twisted modern culture, based on the perverted premised of “political correctness.” Both portend more harm to be visited on innocent Americans. And, instead of real solutions, both will virtually ensure the hasty implementation of “fixes” that invariably offers more of the liberal disease to cure its symptoms.

We are told that Steven Kazmierczak, the latest mass murderer, was not really responsible for the mayhem he caused, since he was off of his medications. Yet nobody seems to be asking why events of this nature were never rampant prior to the advent of these miracle drugs, the usage of which was necessitated in lieu of stern discipline and punishment, the standard method of managing “anti-social behavior,” back when it was simply called “evil.”

In our modern, open-minded era, grade school children are no longer expected to listen to those in authority, stay in their seats, or restrain their brutish urges. While an abundance of rules exists, young people are rarely punished for failing to submit to them. Instead, they are “diagnosed” as having physiological problems and subsequently drugged into a compliant stupor, never learning that wrong actions reap negative consequences.

Amazingly, the liberal social architects who invented this course of action incessantly tell us that, as a result of their superior approach to child rearing, things have improved. Try walking through a typical mall or sitting outside of your car in front of the local fast-food establishment while watching the current generation in action. See if you really believe such drivel.

Nevertheless, those who have created this mess, from Dr. Spock to the current cadre of “family services experts” who will instantly tear your family apart if you even hint that you might swat your badly behaving child or demand obedience to your directives for proper conduct, are emphatic in their assertions that they have made America a far nicer and less violent place. Never question those in authority, nor demand any tangible evidence to support their contentions.

Instead, accept their superior intellect and expertise or risk being labeled as “abusive,” whereupon you will feel the intensity of their self-righteous fury.

Click for full text... (http://www.therealitycheck.org/2008/02/20/from-elections-to-shootings-america-is-broken/)

Another good one---nothing is expected from people in our society. You get what you expect. We have thereby deprived our society of the rewards of cooperation with and even doing for others. If you break societies rules they take some of you money and may take your freedom which is all dependent on society
1 Convincing a jury you were responsible for breaking the rules.
2 Making sure the jury believes that the rules were fair in the first place.
3 There is any room to put you in jail.
4 You have any money for them to take away from you.

If you are broke and there is no room to incarcerate you have to talk to surrogate parents once a month that are provided to you by the State. Hardly a deterrent.

[Classact]

When I was a child it was different, far different than now. Kids respected teachers, even substitutes. Students feared the teacher sending a note to their parents (by way of the kid). No one thought of throwing away a teacher note, no one! If a teacher sent you to the office you got your ass beat with a paddle or leather strap.

Soon we'll need $200.00 an hour lawyers to drive a school bus and I really don't know how they find people to do this job? I would be fired or in jail within a week.

When my oldest kid spent a year in public school he had troubles with a bully and when I contacted the principal the principal hinted I and my son should suck it up... that the bully was a disadvantaged youth from a poor hood. I told the principal to tell the bully I would pay some bully from the class of 89 that just got out of jail to break his arm... then I told the principal I have enough money for two arms as I simulated shooting him with my pointed finger saying bang... No more problems.

No one is willing to realize people constantly fight with good and evil and must see good at home, and if not at school and government.

[actsnoblemartin]

read what i wrote,

I explain how the cultural left is destroying america

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=12250

[JohnDoe]

We got spanked, if we didn't behave or were unruley.

I am extremely concerned with all of these drugs being put out there to control our children's behavior! And extremely concerned that normal, but maybe hyperactive, children will spend a whole life taking these drugs and then when they go off them, they go bananas....and kill people in some cases. There has been one too many of these shootings and killings on campuses lately that have been these drug reliant kids that our medical/pharma system created.

A doctor takes an oath, to do no harm....i don't care if the school or the parents or the kid himself asks for drugs to control his behavior or make him "feel" better the DR. has taken an oath not to harm his patients and should JUST SAY NO to prescribing these drugs that have so many unknowns and side effects unless absolutely necessary imho.

I think i heard on a news program that 2/3's of our country is now taking antidepressants....if that is true, then something is wayyyyyyy wrong. After my grandmother died, my mom was really depressed and they put her on these drugs, which worked VERY WELL for her and a year and a half later, she was off of them.

I have a friend who has to take her meds, she has a chemical imbalance and it is necessary.

This is not who we are talking about here....we are talking about kids that get put on meds for simple, minor, behavior problems...or problems with discipline.

We also need to consider the possibility that these newer drugs are being released on to the market toooo early, without enough study and research on them for side effects....imo.

jd

[Hobbit]

I had to go to a psychologist not too long ago. The first time, it was the student fee-funded (most people read 'free') help at college. This guy diagnosed me with mild post-traumatic stress and moderate to severe anxiety. He prescribed me some drugs and sent me on my way. I called up my cousin, who is a pharmacist (and a damn good one) and asked her about them, and she told me of all the weird side effects and the fact that they were antidepressants in such high doses that, while they might take care of the anxiety, they'd probably make me into a largely different person as long as I was on them. I dismissed the quack and didn't take any meds.

A year later, the problem was worse, and I had to take a year off school. My parents sent me to a psychologist friend they knew, who diagnosed me with the same thing. I asked, "So, are you going to try to dope me up like the last guy?" He said, "Heavens no! The dosage of antidepressants I'd have to give you to 'fix' the problem would be so high, you would barely recognize yourself. The problem isn't chemical, so we're going to instead focus on identifying the causes of your anxiety and stress, drag them into the light, and figure out how to deal with them." I was in therapy for 6 months, for a total cost of less than 2 months worth of meds, which I would still be taking. Today, I'm pretty much fine. I still have issues, but I can deal. NO drug will ever rule my mind.

[LiberalNation]

I like the zoloft I'm taking. Could live with out it and have gone off a few times but it helps regulate your moods so no bad stressing over stuff. Never took anything as a younger kid.

[82Marine89]

I would have been kept in a coma. I was extremely hyperactive and got bored easily. School was never a challenge for me. Got into numerous fights because I grew up a funny looking kid with a stutter. Thank God for puberty and a speech therapist. Mom beat us with a riding crop and dad used his belt. We made mistakes, but never the same mistake twice. My family says the Marine Corps gave me direction in life and kept me from becoming a statistic.

No meds were used on the six of us kids and we seem to have turned out OK.

[82Marine89]

I like the zoloft I'm taking. Could live with out it and have gone off a few times but it helps regulate your moods so no bad stressing over stuff.

That's just wrong. Get off that shit and take reality head on. You might not like it now, but you'll appreciate it later in life.

[actsnoblemartin]

why should she be taken off a medication that is prescribed by her doctor?

I dont wanna be rude, but that makes no sense to me at all.


That's just wrong. Get off that shit and take reality head on. You might not like it now, but you'll appreciate it later in life.

[actsnoblemartin]

exercise and proper nutrition, as well as adequate sleep help regulate mood too

I would not reccommend you stop taking any med without your doctors approval.

They are a medical professional for a reason


I like the zoloft I'm taking. Could live with out it and have gone off a few times but it helps regulate your moods so no bad stressing over stuff. Never took anything as a younger kid.

[82Marine89]

why should she be taken off a medication that is prescribed by her doctor?

I dont wanna be rude, but that makes no sense to me at all.

Everything has a med for it these days. Sad? Take this. Bored? Take that? Can't get it up? Pop this. What happened to the days of taking responsibility for your actions? We are becoming a mind numbed society because there is a cure for everything. My response? If your kid is unruly beat his ass. If he does it again you didn't beat him hard enough the first time.

[5stringJeff]

The pill-popping prescription approach to medicine is BS, IMO. Hobbit, 82Marine, I'm with you - I'm not taking drugs because the doctor/psychologist was too lazy to treat the underlying symptoms.

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree with you that people should take responsibility for their actions, but their must also be some allowances made, so that those who suffer from true mental illness, get the care they need, which isnt always meds, but if they become neccesary, they must be taken, unless a doctor takes them off

I agree, some disorders are border line bull shit, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water for those disorders which are real, and need medical treatment


Everything has a med for it these days. Sad? Take this. Bored? Take that? Can't get it up? Pop this. What happened to the days of taking responsibility for your actions? We are becoming a mind numbed society because there is a cure for everything. My response? If your kid is unruly beat his ass. If he does it again you didn't beat him hard enough the first time.

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree with you, doctors are lazy, and dont want to treat the underlying symptoms.

My anxiety became better because of www.recovery-inc.com just as much as meds, if not slightly more

so behavior modification, life style changes, diet, alternative medicine, are worthy approaches

all im saying is, if your prescribed medicine, you dont just say screw it, without consulting your doctor first


The pill-popping prescription approach to medicine is BS, IMO. Hobbit, 82Marine, I'm with you - I'm not taking drugs because the doctor/psychologist was too lazy to treat the underlying symptoms.

[82Marine89]

I agree with you that people should take responsibility for their actions, but their must also be some allowances made, so that those who suffer from true mental illness, get the care they need, which isnt always meds, but if they become neccesary, they must be taken, unless a doctor takes them off

I agree, some disorders are border line bull shit, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water for those disorders which are real, and need medical treatment

I don't have issues with true mental ilnesses. Nothing a car battery and some jumper cables can't handle. Just kidding. What I have issues with is people taking them because they don't want to deal with reality (see LN's post above) or because some doctor issues them because you have a trendy disease called ADD or ADHD. Better yet, because they don't want to be sued for misdiagnosing you they give you a pill that is publicly accepted as a cure all.

[Dilloduck]

The pill-popping prescription approach to medicine is BS, IMO. Hobbit, 82Marine, I'm with you - I'm not taking drugs because the doctor/psychologist was too lazy to treat the underlying symptoms.

Denying that chemical intervention may be necessary to treat an illness of the brain is EXACTLY the same as denying that chemical intervention may be necessary to treat heart disease.

[5stringJeff]

Denying that chemical intervention may be necessary to treat an illness of the brain is EXACTLY the same as denying that chemical intervention may be necessary to treat heart disease.

It MAY be necessary. It probably isn't.

[Dilloduck]

It MAY be necessary. It probably isn't.

How can you possibly make that diagnosis ? Insinuating that someone is being mistreated or just lazy for taking medication only serves to further stigmatize mental disorders.

[82Marine89]

How can you possibly make that diagnosis ? Insinuating that someone is being mistreated or just lazy for taking medication only serves to further stigmatize mental disorders.

Because of comments like this...


I like the zoloft I'm taking. Could live with out it and have gone off a few times but it helps regulate your moods so no bad stressing over stuff. Never took anything as a younger kid.

[Dilloduck]

Because of comments like this...

Using LN as any kind of norm is a bit over top don't you think ?

[82Marine89]

Using LN as any kind of norm is a bit over top don't you think ?

How about this (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=12194)?

I'm sure she's not the only kid out there taking meds so they don't have to deal with reality,

[Dilloduck]

How about this (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=12194)?

I'm sure she's not the only kid out there taking meds so they don't have to deal with reality,

Unfortunately malpractice and poor judgement occur in every branch of medicine. The perception that medications remove mentally ill people from reality is absurd.

[LiberalNation]

Well it doesn't work if you wana get away from reality. Not that strong. Yeah doctor prescribed, for anxiety.

[82Marine89]

Well it doesn't work if you wana get away from reality. Not that strong. Yeah doctor prescribed, for anxiety.


Unfortunately malpractice and poor judgement occur in every branch of medicine. The perception that medications remove mentally ill people from reality is absurd.

LN, you state you take it to make dealing with mood swings/anxiety easier. How about learning to deal with it?

Dillo, these meds are given to kids that in our days were just like us. The responsibility of parenting has been removed and the age of mind numbed children is upon us.

[Classact]

Pills will kill you quicker than most problems they are prescribed for. I refuse to take medicine unless it is absolutely necessary, nothing... got a headache drink some water and get a breath of fresh air. Had a wisdom tooth extracted and the dentist prescribes pain killers and anti swelling medications... The pain is gone in hours by itself but a damaged liver lasts a lifetime that is made shorter with every pill popped.

I get depression from time to time... it's called sadness, self pity, life sucks, had a bad day but I don't stick a gun in my mouth or cut my wrists... I get over it. A soldier told me once that he was so depressed that his girlfriend dear John-ed him that he was comptemplating slashing his wrists... I laughed at him and asked why? Then I told him to slash up and down his arms veins in stead of across because they almost always save the ones that cut across the wrists... I told the young dude find another fish.

[gabosaurus]

I am bipolar. I took a ton of drugs at first because I wanted to become a different person. I couldn't control the mood swings, anger outbreaks frequent depression and poor decision making that the current me was going through.
I took Effexor, Tranxene and one more that I can't remember. The doses were very controlled. I had to work through them.
I missed perhaps a month of school. I spent a lot of time with doctors and in therapy.
Now I take only Effexor XR, which is a maintenance drug.

Sometimes, you have to admit that you need help. It is better than sliding off the deep end.

[Dilloduck]

Pills will kill you quicker than most problems they are prescribed for. I refuse to take medicine unless it is absolutely necessary, nothing... got a headache drink some water and get a breath of fresh air. Had a wisdom tooth extracted and the dentist prescribes pain killers and anti swelling medications... The pain is gone in hours by itself but a damaged liver lasts a lifetime that is made shorter with every pill popped.

I get depression from time to time... it's called sadness, self pity, life sucks, had a bad day but I don't stick a gun in my mouth or cut my wrists... I get over it. A soldier told me once that he was so depressed that his girlfriend dear John-ed him that he was comptemplating slashing his wrists... I laughed at him and asked why? Then I told him to slash up and down his arms veins in stead of across because they almost always save the ones that cut across the wrists... I told the young dude find another fish.

Great advice for someone who doesn't have major clinical depression.

[82Marine89]

I am bipolar.

Never would have guessed.

[Dilloduck]

LN, you state you take it to make dealing with mood swings/anxiety easier. How about learning to deal with it?

Dillo, these meds are given to kids that in our days were just like us. The responsibility of parenting has been removed and the age of mind numbed children is upon us.

I'm not defending malpractice. It's simply a fact that properly dispersed medication can be highly successful in treating some mental disorders.

[Pale Rider]

I like the zoloft I'm taking. Could live with out it and have gone off a few times but it helps regulate your moods so no bad stressing over stuff. Never took anything as a younger kid.

Just heard the latest on these types of drugs the other day on the radio. Sure they make hyperactive kids calm down, but the drug also permanently harms the brain, and turns calm kids into lazy adults.

[Dilloduck]

Just heard the latest on these types of drugs the other day on the radio. Sure they make hyperactive kids calm down, but the drug also permanently harms the brain, and turns calm kids into lazy adults.

What do you mean by--
these types of drugs .

[Classact]

Great advice for someone who doesn't have major clinical depression.If you need drugs to be in society then maybe you should be in an institution until you no longer require drugs?

[Dilloduck]

If you need drugs to be in society then maybe you should be in an institution until you no longer require drugs?

ok but I don't think all the people who take daily medication are gonna be happy about that.

[82Marine89]

I'm not defending malpractice. It's simply a fact that properly dispersed medication can be highly successful in treating some mental disorders.

We agree.

[diuretic]

For the crowd who are coming down on prescription drugs - your brain operates in the same manner as those who have to take prescription drugs. It works, as I'm sure you know, on the basis of electro-chemical processes. It's not magic, that great ravelled knot needs everything to be in balance to work properly. If you don't have a hormone imbalance and don't need to take prescription drugs then that's a great thing for you. But don't get down on people who are suffering a physiological problem as real as a broken leg and who have to undergo a course of treatment for it. The attitude shown here by some posters is as stupid as telling someone with a freshly broken leg to just get up and walk because it will heal itself.

I think there are some closet scientologists here :laugh2:

[Classact]

For the crowd who are coming down on prescription drugs - your brain operates in the same manner as those who have to take prescription drugs. It works, as I'm sure you know, on the basis of electro-chemical processes. It's not magic, that great ravelled knot needs everything to be in balance to work properly. If you don't have a hormone imbalance and don't need to take prescription drugs then that's a great thing for you. But don't get down on people who are suffering a physiological problem as real as a broken leg and who have to undergo a course of treatment for it. The attitude shown here by some posters is as stupid as telling someone with a freshly broken leg to just get up and walk because it will heal itself.

I think there are some closet scientologists here :laugh2:Perhaps I've been a little judgmental but America is the largest consumers of drugs, over the counter or prescription and illegal in the world. I'm sure there are persons that actually require medication but I'd give odds they are more rare than persons being born gay... we have tens of millions of children on drugs to change them into metrosexuals. There are songs written about them... just a little help from my friends...

I went to school with a kid that went home to find his father had blown his head off. He told me later that his dad had been sad for a long time.

[diuretic]

Perhaps I've been a little judgmental but America is the largest consumers of drugs, over the counter or prescription and illegal in the world. I'm sure there are persons that actually require medication but I'd give odds they are more rare than persons being born gay... we have tens of millions of children on drugs to change them into metrosexuals. There are songs written about them... just a little help from my friends...

I went to school with a kid that went home to find his father had blown his head off. He told me later that his dad had been sad for a long time.

I take your points - as previously expressed and now - about lazy medicos, grasping pharma salespeople and so on.

I also take the point - perhaps implied - that we (and I include my country in this as we used to have a terrible record on analgesics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Cup_Of_Tea,_A_Bex_and_A_Good_Lie_Down ) are too quick to seek a pharmaceutical solution.

I also agree that for people suffering depression then a combination of treatments (eg SSRI for the chemical imbalance and cognitive behaviour therapy for the behaviour correction) is best, relying solely on the SSRI is probably not helpful.

I'll also put this general observation, for what it's worth and it's not intended to be critical of anyone here.

Sometimes shit happens.

Life isn't always bubbly and bouncy, sometimes it's just loaded with crap and it's quite okay to be effing miserable about it when it visits you. That's natural. It's like the Buddhist parable of the mustard seed - shit happens to all of us. But we can get over it. Main thing is to make the effort to get over it. If you find you can't then you should toddle along to the doc.

Does that make sense?

[avatar4321]

What we need is a fundamental culture change. And that is to the principles that made this nation great to begin with. The principles found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hard work, personal accountability, thrift, charity, gratitude, patience, kindness, etc.

And that change begins in the home.

[diuretic]

What we need is a fundamental culture change. And that is to the principles that made this nation great to begin with. The principles found in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Hard work, personal accountability, thrift, charity, gratitude, patience, kindness, etc.

And that change begins in the home.

You might want to put the gospels down and start reading some Weber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

[avatar4321]

You might want to put the gospels down and start reading some Weber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

I'm rather insulted that you are implying that I don't read things other than scriptures. I've probably read more books this week than most people do in a year. I'm not trying to brag here. I am just trying to point out your accusations have no basis.

The problem isnt with knowing things. It's with doing things. People dont live what's right. and as long as people reject virtue and morality, things will get worse.

[diuretic]

I'm rather insulted that you are implying that I don't read things other than scriptures. I've probably read more books this week than most people do in a year. I'm not trying to brag here. I am just trying to point out your accusations have no basis.

The problem isnt with knowing things. It's with doing things. People dont live what's right. and as long as people reject virtue and morality, things will get worse.

I'm rather insulted you'd think I was insulting you :laugh2:

My comment wasn't about your reading habits, it was about your linking of the teaching of the gospels and modern capitalism.