Have You Forgotten?

[nevadamedic]

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I figured this is more fitting under the War On Terrorism thread then music. This is definatly not a video you can watch and have dry eyes.

[Psychoblues]

I think about what lead up to it, the misintelligence that was precipitated afterward, the 4000 American lives lost in a war on people that had nothing to do with it and the lies by otherwise national leaders that have never been brought to account for their military/industial fascist endeavors and misdeeds and I cry a bit myself.

[actsnoblemartin]

I think many have forgetton and act like their is no such thing as radical islam, islamo-nazi's, and a global war on terror, which europe and asia need to be more helpful with


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I figured this is more fitting under the War On Terrorism thread then music. This is definatly not a video you can watch and have dry eyes.

[actsnoblemartin]

can you be a bit more specific, because i hear people say bush lied, but many countries believed the intelligence reports on iraq, and many dems, including the clintons believed we need a regime change in iraq

Thanks


I think about what lead up to it, the misintelligence that was precipitated afterward, the 4000 American lives lost in a war on people that had nothing to do with it and the lies by otherwise national leaders that have never been brought to account for their military/industial fascist endeavors and misdeeds and I cry a bit myself.

[nevadamedic]

I think about what lead up to it, the misintelligence that was precipitated afterward, the 4000 American lives lost in a war on people that had nothing to do with it and the lies by otherwise national leaders that have never been brought to account for their military/industial fascist endeavors and misdeeds and I cry a bit myself.

So the Taliban and Bin Laden didn't have anything to do with it? That's what the video was talking about. Iraq was just an added bonus.

[MtnBiker]

An added bonus? bonus to what?

[Psychoblues]

Iraq is a bonus to who, nm? With only 10% or less of the troops in the theatre of operations stationed in Afghanistan, just who was the bonus intended to benefit?





So the Taliban and Bin Laden didn't have anything to do with it? That's what the video was talking about. Iraq was just an added bonus.

[actsnoblemartin]

my honest 2 cents

bonus: no

distraction: yes

Being able to see through political bs: priceless :dance:



So the Taliban and Bin Laden didn't have anything to do with it? That's what the video was talking about. Iraq was just an added bonus.

[nevadamedic]

Iraq is a bonus to who, nm? With only 10% or less of the troops in the theatre of operations stationed in Afghanistan, just who was the bonus intended to benefit?

The thousands of innocent Iraqui's that were being tortured and killed for no reason by an evil dictator.

[Psychoblues]

In more than 30 years he didn't kill and torture as many as the USA has done in just a few years.





The thousands of innocent Iraqui's that were being tortured and killed for no reason by an evil dictator.

Seriously, you don't get it, do you?

[actsnoblemartin]

saddam killed and maimed, what 3 to 4 hundred thousand in twenty years give or take.

Sp what are you basing this on, and what proof do you have before i give my opinion


In more than 30 years he didn't kill and torture as many as the USA has done in just a few years.






Seriously, you don't get it, do you?

[actsnoblemartin]

I almost wonder if we can stop living in the past, but still not forget it.

We seem to either be stuck on 9/11 or 3/19 (the day before the iraq invasion)

instead of 2/24

[Psychoblues]

Those who forget the past are destined to repeat the failures that have already occurred in many cases many times. Where do you find yourself in that observation, martin?

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree with that we should learn about the past, learn from its mistakes.

all im saying is, we have to live in today, with the knowledge of the past, we cant go back and fix what was in the past, but we can make today great, and tommorrow better


Those who forget the past are destined to repeat the failures that have already occurred in many cases many times. Where do you find yourself in that observation, martin?

[bullypulpit]

The thousands of innocent Iraqui's that were being tortured and killed for no reason by an evil dictator.

So why haven't US forces invaded Burma?...North Korea?...Sudan?...Or any of the other multitude of countries under despotic rule? Your logic, to remain consistent, must be open to such action.

Iraq was a war of choice, and a bad choice at that. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the US invasion.

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

There was no reason to invade Iraq beyond Chimpy McPresident's desire to work off his woody for Saddam. In doing so, Bush sowed the whirlwind...And we will reap its bitter fruits for years to come.

[actsnoblemartin]

do you believe the u.s. is solely responsible for the injustics that go in dictatorial regimes like the ones you mentioned, or without full support of nato, and/or the u.n. and real cooperation, should they just stay out of it?


So why haven't US forces invaded Burma?...North Korea?...Sudan?...Or any of the other multitude of countries under despotic rule? Your logic, to remain consistent, must be open to such action.

Iraq was a war of choice, and a bad choice at that. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the US invasion.

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

There was no reason to invade Iraq beyond Chimpy McPresident's desire to work off his woody for Saddam. In doing so, Bush sowed the whirlwind...And we will reap its bitter fruits for years to come.

[nevadamedic]

So why haven't US forces invaded Burma?...North Korea?...Sudan?...Or any of the other multitude of countries under despotic rule? Your logic, to remain consistent, must be open to such action.

Iraq was a war of choice, and a bad choice at that. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the US invasion.

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

There was no reason to invade Iraq beyond Chimpy McPresident's desire to work off his woody for Saddam. In doing so, Bush sowed the whirlwind...And we will reap its bitter fruits for years to come.

I am open to going into any country the commits crimes against humanity. We did it in WW2. Oh wait that was ok though, it was a Democratic President I forgot when it's your guys idea it is ok but when Republican's do it then it's bad.

[bullypulpit]

I am open to going into any country the commits crimes against humanity. We did it in WW2. Oh wait that was ok though, it was a Democratic President I forgot when it's your guys idea it is ok but when Republican's do it then it's bad.

Actually, WWII was a declared war against foreign governments which attacked American territory and American allies. The war in Iraq was a war of choice against a nation which posed no credible threat to America or her allies.

Thanks once again for playing "Really Bad Analogies"! (game show music swells in background)

[actsnoblemartin]

Bush went to congress with intelligence that israel, russia , china, just to name a few believed, and democrats were calling for regime change until it was politically convient to change their minds

Its too simplistic to just say, bush had nothing better to do then invade iraq, cause believe me if it was for oil, then we would already control it.


Actually, WWII was a declared war against foreign governments which attacked American territory and American allies. The war in Iraq was a war of choice against a nation which posed no credible threat to America or her allies.

Thanks once again for playing "Really Bad Analogies"! (game show music swells in background)

[82Marine89]

So the Taliban and Bin Laden didn't have anything to do with it? That's what the video was talking about. Iraq was just an added bonus.

Bonus? Tell that to the families of servicemen that died due to this mismanaged clusterfuck.

[bullypulpit]

Bush went to congress with intelligence that israel, russia , china, just to name a few believed, and democrats were calling for regime change until it was politically convient to change their minds

Its too simplistic to just say, bush had nothing better to do then invade iraq, cause believe me if it was for oil, then we would already control it.

How's about providing links to reputable, independent sources for your allegations?

For a detailed analysis of pre-war intelligence, I suggest you read:

<center><a href=http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85202-p20/paul-r-pillar/intelligence-policy-and-the-war-in-iraq.html>Intelligence, Policy,and the War in Iraq</a></center>

It will dispel most, if not all, of your half-baked ideas regarding the Bush administration's use, and misuse, of intelligence in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Provided, of course, both your attention span and reading comprehension are up to the task.

[Yurt]

How's about providing links to reputable, independent sources for your allegations?

For a detailed analysis of pre-war intelligence, I suggest you read:

<center><a href=http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85202-p20/paul-r-pillar/intelligence-policy-and-the-war-in-iraq.html>Intelligence, Policy,and the War in Iraq</a></center>

It will dispel most, if not all, of your half-baked ideas regarding the Bush administration's use, and misuse, of intelligence in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Provided, of course, both your attention span and reading comprehension are up to the task.

tell us which international leaders claimed saddam did not have wmds... are you saying that no dems ever called for regimen change in iraq and that no dems before bush said saddam had wmds?

[DragonStryk72]

My problem is that it's now just getting brought up too much. I remember trust me, my siblings were supposed to there when it went down. it just feels now like we're being clubbed over the head with it, and used for the worst kinds of fear-mongering on both sides.

[gabosaurus]

Note to Nevada concerning this thread:

WHERE'S OSAMA?

[Psychoblues]

'Zactly, gabby!!!!!!!!!!!!



Note to Nevada concerning this thread:

WHERE'S OSAMA?

Where there is money to be usurped, gabby, there is no evil for which the reich wingers will reject.

[LuvRPgrl]

So why haven't US forces invaded Burma?...North Korea?...Sudan?...Or any of the other multitude of countries under despotic rule? Your logic, to remain consistent, must be open to such action.

Iraq was a war of choice, and a bad choice at that. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to the US invasion.

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

There was no reason to invade Iraq beyond Chimpy McPresident's desire to work off his woody for Saddam. In doing so, Bush sowed the whirlwind...And we will reap its bitter fruits for years to come.

Usual stupid liberal logic. "if you cant fix all of it, then fix nothing"
You seen a headshrinker lately?

[LuvRPgrl]

Note to Nevada concerning this thread:

WHERE'S OSAMA?

You mean obama bin laden?:laugh2:

Uh, you question is exactly the point.
His whereabouts are unknown, as is his effectivness is in hiding also.

[LuvRPgrl]

Actually, WWII was a declared war against foreign governments which attacked American territory and American allies. The war in Iraq was a war of choice against a nation which posed no credible threat to America or her allies.

Thanks once again for playing "Really Bad Analogies"! (game show music swells in background)

Blah, blah, blah, why do you keep repeating the lies? Oh yea, just like Gobbels in Nazi Germany. YOU are the fucking facist.

[LuvRPgrl]

'Zactly, gabby!!!!!!!!!!!!




Where there is money to be usurped, gabby, there is no evil for which the reich wingers will reject.

OUCH !!!! Here come the facts, WATCH OUT !!!! There are more millionaire Dems than republicans. Dems on the whole are richer than republicans.

[Psychoblues]

Care to share where you get thaose statistics, 'lil free one?




OUCH !!!! Here come the facts, WATCH OUT !!!! There are more millionaire Dems than republicans. Dems on the whole are richer than republicans.

There are a few Democratic millionaires, I agree, and I deeply respect them. But to confuse them with the majority of trash, burn and destroy for profit Republicans is simply not fair or honest from your very dishonest and unsubstantiated statement. Would you care to prove to even one small degree your statement as accurate in any way?

[bullypulpit]

tell us which international leaders claimed saddam did not have wmds... are you saying that no dems ever called for regimen change in iraq and that no dems before bush said saddam had wmds?

No, not at all. Read the article I linked to.

[bullypulpit]

Blah, blah, blah, why do you keep repeating the lies? Oh yea, just like Gobbels in Nazi Germany. YOU are the fucking facist.

And which "lies" might that be? Be specific please, and provide documentation and links to support your claims.

[The Reverend]

Actually, WWII was a declared war against foreign governments which attacked American territory and American allies. The war in Iraq was a war of choice against a nation which posed no credible threat to America or her allies.

Thanks once again for playing "Really Bad Analogies"! (game show music swells in background)


Actually only Japan attacked America and for that we invaded Germany

MOST of our wars are fought without anyone ever attacking the US

[gabosaurus]

I really don't give a shit about playing the Republicans vs. Democrats blame game. I don't care who is richer, or more greedy, or more evil.

WHERE IS OSAMA? WHY HAVEN'T WE FOUND HIM AND BROUGHT HIM TO JUSTICE?

Fifteen of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi citizens. They were financed by the Saudi government. NONE of the hijackers were Iraqi. Or had any ties to Iraq.
So did we bomb or invade Saudi Arabia? Noooooooo, we invaded .. Iraq!

Yes, Iraq had an evil dictator who terrorized and killed thousands of his own people. So does 15-20 other nations, including Saudi Arabia, North Korea and numerous African countries.

So you might as well cut out the "Remember Sept. 11!" bullshit. Bush forgot about it a few hours after it happened. His sole focus was Iraq. He never gave a shit about bin Laden.
As for the Saudis, we not only did not punish then, we gave in to their pressure to remove any trace of blame directed at them in the official Sept. 11 investigation. It's all so that Bandar Bush can continue to kneel at the throne of Saud and suck Saudi cock. In exchange for oil rights, of course.

The Saudi government fucked this country up the butt, and we made Iraq pay for it.

[bullypulpit]

Actually only Japan attacked America and for that we invaded Germany

MOST of our wars are fought without anyone ever attacking the US

Indeed, but once involved in war with Japan, the US came in on the side of its allies in Europe. Try as one might, the invasion of Iraq is in no way comparable to WWII.

[The Reverend]

WHERE IS OSAMA? WHY HAVEN'T WE FOUND HIM AND BROUGHT HIM TO JUSTICE?


That is a great question. This man(term used loosely) has evaded capture throughout two presidents administrations.
Another good question is bin Laden not wanted by the FBI for the 9/11 attacks?
USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

[The Reverend]

Indeed, but once involved in war with Japan, the US came in on the side of its allies in Europe. Try as one might, the invasion of Iraq is in no way comparable to WWII.

Sorry if you misunderstood, I was not trying to compare the two. Going into Iraq was a mistake, the handleing of it after the invasion was also a mistake. Problem is immediatly pulling out would just be another mistake.

[gabosaurus]

If the U.S. captured bin Laden, we would lose the primary focus of our alleged "War on Terror." Who else could be an equally cartoonish symbol of evil?

[Dilloduck]

If the U.S. captured bin Laden, we would lose the primary focus of our alleged "War on Terror." Who else could be an equally cartoonish symbol of evil?

Mohammed

[Microcosmos]

After the first plane struck, I thought it was an act of war. After the second struck, I knew it. Those suicidal shits knew we were gonna respond to them. What, did they think we would run out of ammo? Yeah, 3 trillion is a lot, maybe not so cost-effective. But the alternative would be to let the terrorists know that they don't have to fear retaliation. And I'll bet that the majority of terrorists are not suicidal.

[gabosaurus]

Mohammed

Mohammed represents peace to the same percentage of Muslims as Christians who believe God to be the Prince of Peace.
Most Muslims are not militant. Just as most Christians don't identify with Fred Phelps.

[The Reverend]

After the first plane struck, I thought it was an act of war. After the second struck, I knew it. Those suicidal shits knew we were gonna respond to them. What, did they think we would run out of ammo? Yeah, 3 trillion is a lot, maybe not so cost-effective. But the alternative would be to let the terrorists know that they don't have to fear retaliation. And I'll bet that the majority of terrorists are not suicidal.

Ok that explains Afghanistan but what about Iraq?

[Microcosmos]

Ok that explains Afghanistan but what about Iraq?

Like I said, not cost-effective...and a lot of policy mistakes...any war is going to suck for all involved for a lot of reasons...but what alternative would you have proposed? Are you upset that Saddam was put to death?

[The Reverend]

Like I said, not cost-effective...and a lot of policy mistakes...any war is going to suck for all involved for a lot of reasons...but what alternative would you have proposed? Are you upset that Saddam was put to death?

Saddam's death does not bother me. My question was due to that Iraq was not the one that attacked us. Had we concentrated all our power and fury on the people that did this in Afghanistan we would be done there now. Iraq has prolonged the war in Afghanistan.

Iraq could have waited till after Afghanistan.

[Microcosmos]

Good point. But then, where would all the terrorists go? Iraq. As it is now, they're oozing into Pakistan. Not that a war with Pakistan would be a good idea, and they're probably oozing into other places as well (like the good ol' right here in our backyard USA). But they're more spread out and frustrated. Like has been mentioned before by others who have looked deeper into the issue than I have, based on what was presented to them at the time, the majority decided that an Iraq war was a good idea. The question of how close to done are we there is more difficult I think than whether we should have gone in, in the first place.

[TheStripey1]

I figured this is more fitting under the War On Terrorism thread then music. This is definatly not a video you can watch and have dry eyes.

Nope... Haven't forgotten it and I also haven't forgotten who was behind it either... Osama Been Forgotten and his band of evil doers... too bad this administration took their collective eyes off of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and allowed them to get a toehold in Iraq.

[LuvRPgrl]

And which "lies" might that be? Be specific please, and provide documentation and links to support your claims.

Pretty much anything you say. Documentation is on the net. Links, you find em.

[LuvRPgrl]

Actually, WWII was a declared war against foreign governments which attacked American territory and American allies. The war in Iraq was a war of choice against a nation which posed no credible threat to America or her allies.

Thanks once again for playing "Really Bad Analogies"! (game show music swells in background)

Actually, ousting saddam was a continuation of the Gulf war, when he attacked an ally, Kuwait. He then broke his end of the cease fire agreement, and we went in an finished it becauses of that.

[LuvRPgrl]

Saddam's death does not bother me. My question was due to that Iraq was not the one that attacked us. Had we concentrated all our power and fury on the people that did this in Afghanistan we would be done there now. Iraq has prolonged the war in Afghanistan.

Iraq could have waited till after Afghanistan.

Germany didnt attack us in the forties.
Iraq attacked Kuwait, we defended Kuwait, and saddam broke his end of the cease fire agreement, so we finished the job.
You dont think all those terrorists wouldnt have been in Afghanastan had we not gone into Iraq?
You guys seem to forget this is a global war. But when you want to vent, you conviently bring up irrelevant issues like, Iraq didnt attack us. So what? It isnt a pre requisite for them to be a danger to us, or a sponsor of terrorism. Granada didnt attack us. The British in 1776 didnt attack us. Nobody attacked us in ww one.
And one last thing, Afghanastan, if it has been prolonged, is not due to us not havin genough troops there. NATO has failed to fulfill its obligation to troop numbers there, and we made up for it.

[nevadamedic]

I really don't give a shit about playing the Republicans vs. Democrats blame game. I don't care who is richer, or more greedy, or more evil.

WHERE IS OSAMA? WHY HAVEN'T WE FOUND HIM AND BROUGHT HIM TO JUSTICE?
Fifteen of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi citizens. They were financed by the Saudi government. NONE of the hijackers were Iraqi. Or had any ties to Iraq.
So did we bomb or invade Saudi Arabia? Noooooooo, we invaded .. Iraq!

Yes, Iraq had an evil dictator who terrorized and killed thousands of his own people. So does 15-20 other nations, including Saudi Arabia, North Korea and numerous African countries.

So you might as well cut out the "Remember Sept. 11!" bullshit. Bush forgot about it a few hours after it happened. His sole focus was Iraq. He never gave a shit about bin Laden.
As for the Saudis, we not only did not punish then, we gave in to their pressure to remove any trace of blame directed at them in the official Sept. 11 investigation. It's all so that Bandar Bush can continue to kneel at the throne of Saud and suck Saudi cock. In exchange for oil rights, of course.

The Saudi government fucked this country up the butt, and we made Iraq pay for it.

Because the Liberal's keep trying to tie our hands by limiting what we can do while interrogating asshole terrorists who would know his location or trying to cut funding to operations that would result in finding his location.

[nevadamedic]

Germany didnt attack us in the forties.
Iraq attacked Kuwait, we defended Kuwait, and saddam broke his end of the cease fire agreement, so we finished the job.
You dont think all those terrorists wouldnt have been in Afghanastan had we not gone into Iraq?
You guys seem to forget this is a global war. But when you want to vent, you conviently bring up irrelevant issues like, Iraq didnt attack us. So what? It isnt a pre requisite for them to be a danger to us, or a sponsor of terrorism. Granada didnt attack us. The British in 1776 didnt attack us. Nobody attacked us in ww one.
And one last thing, Afghanastan, if it has been prolonged, is not due to us not havin genough troops there. NATO has failed to fulfill its obligation to troop numbers there, and we made up for it.

Saddam praised Bin Laden and his goons and provided financil aid if not more to Bin Laden's cause so in a way he did attack us.

[gabosaurus]

Saddam praised Bin Laden and his goons and provided financil aid if not more to Bin Laden's cause so in a way he did attack us.

You are entirely and 100 percent wrong on this.
Saddam and bin Laden were always enemies. bin Laden tried having Saddam knocked off a couple of times. As a result, bin Laden and his AQ buddies were not welcome in Iraq.
Iraq had no resources. How could they provide any kind of aid to bin Laden.
Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, provided aid and sanctuary to 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers. They were DIRECTLY tied to the attacks.
So why did we invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia?
Because the Saudis did not threaten Bush's daddy.

[LuvRPgrl]

You are entirely and 100 percent wrong on this.
Saddam and bin Laden were always enemies. bin Laden tried having Saddam knocked off a couple of times. As a result, bin Laden and his AQ buddies were not welcome in Iraq.
Iraq had no resources. How could they provide any kind of aid to bin Laden.
Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, provided aid and sanctuary to 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers. They were DIRECTLY tied to the attacks.
So why did we invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia?
Because the Saudis did not threaten Bush's daddy.

OH, I thought it was for the oil??
You guys cant even keep your stories straight. talk about lying.

What Iraq did that SA didnt , was to invade Kuwait. This war is a continuation of that via broken cease fire agreements by saddam

[LuvRPgrl]

Care to share where you get thaose statistics, 'lil free one?





There are a few Democratic millionaires, I agree, and I deeply respect them. But to confuse them with the majority of trash, burn and destroy for profit Republicans is simply not fair or honest from your very dishonest and unsubstantiated statement. Would you care to prove to even one small degree your statement as accurate in any way?

IM soooo FREEEEEEEEE !!!

The tooth will set you free.

A FEW???????????HAHHAHAH,,,,,,,BWAHAHHAHAHHAHA

The three richest men in the world are dems, I dont know about 4-10.

Tell me a republican on par with Soros, Gates and Buffet.
Thought so, you cant.

[LuvRPgrl]

Mohammed represents peace to the same percentage of Muslims as Christians who believe God to be the Prince of Peace.
Most Muslims are not militant. Just as most Christians don't identify with Fred Phelps.

Oh yea, so how many riots and people killed when a crucifix was put in a jar of urine?

The percentage of Christians who will do nothing when So called christians do violence is extremely small compared to their muslim counterparts. Hey, what do you expect from a religion based on a pedophile?