How can I help you if you won't help yourself?

[gabosaurus]

The crisis management and "need based assistance" seminars are starting to wear on me. Today, for the first time ever, I actually walked out on one. It was an exercise in stupidity.

I was meeting with a very uppity womens shelter supervisor who was trying to "instruct me" in how to deal with certain "need based" groups. One group saw us get into one flowing continuous argument.

I was supposed to feel sympathetic and "counsel" this woman. She was one of 10 (!) children. In return, she has nine children. One of her daughters (17) has a child. Another daughter (15) is pregnant.
My first question was -- why the hell do they have so many children? How about BC, or perhaps keeping your pants on?

Supervisor was irate, almost screaming at me -- it's none of my fucking business. I am there to help them, not to question them.
Excuse me, but you can't help some people without questioning them.

So I ask this near illiterate woman "why do you have so many kids?"
Of course, the answer was "Jesus wants us to have children. God will provide."

They don't believe in birth control -- against the "laws of God." Apparently they don't believe in turning down men either.

I went to dinner break and never went back. Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.

[actsnoblemartin]

Your supervisor was an idiot, and im glad you walked out.

We have to judge people, and if people wont help themselves they dont deserve help, and if they rely on god, and do nothing for themselves, which is not what god wants us to do, then bleep her


The crisis management and "need based assistance" seminars are starting to wear on me. Today, for the first time ever, I actually walked out on one. It was an exercise in stupidity.

I was meeting with a very uppity womens shelter supervisor who was trying to "instruct me" in how to deal with certain "need based" groups. One group saw us get into one flowing continuous argument.

I was supposed to feel sympathetic and "counsel" this woman. She was one of 10 (!) children. In return, she has nine children. One of her daughters (17) has a child. Another daughter (15) is pregnant.
My first question was -- why the hell do they have so many children? How about BC, or perhaps keeping your pants on?

Supervisor was irate, almost screaming at me -- it's none of my fucking business. I am there to help them, not to question them.
Excuse me, but you can't help some people without questioning them.

So I ask this near illiterate woman "why do you have so many kids?"
Of course, the answer was "Jesus wants us to have children. God will provide."

They don't believe in birth control -- against the "laws of God." Apparently they don't believe in turning down men either.

I went to dinner break and never went back. Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.

[Kathianne]

My mom used to say something to the effect, "God provides, but while he provides the hoe, it's up to you to pick it up and use it."

[gabosaurus]

That's a wonderful expression, Kathianne. I wish I could have used it.
We all have choices to make. If you continually make the wrong choices, it shouldn't be my responsibility to make it right for you.

[gabosaurus]

Reminds me of the difference between the words "hoe" and "ho".
A "hoe" is a garden tool.
A "ho" is merely a tool.

[PostmodernProphet]

just off the top of my head, if you were there to try to help the woman, "next time have fewer children" might not be of much use.......you should have finagled a meeting with her daughters and said "do you see a pattern here?....would you like to break it?".........

[Classact]

The crisis management and "need based assistance" seminars are starting to wear on me. Today, for the first time ever, I actually walked out on one. It was an exercise in stupidity.

I was meeting with a very uppity womens shelter supervisor who was trying to "instruct me" in how to deal with certain "need based" groups. One group saw us get into one flowing continuous argument.

I was supposed to feel sympathetic and "counsel" this woman. She was one of 10 (!) children. In return, she has nine children. One of her daughters (17) has a child. Another daughter (15) is pregnant.
My first question was -- why the hell do they have so many children? How about BC, or perhaps keeping your pants on?

Supervisor was irate, almost screaming at me -- it's none of my fucking business. I am there to help them, not to question them.
Excuse me, but you can't help some people without questioning them.

So I ask this near illiterate woman "why do you have so many kids?"
Of course, the answer was "Jesus wants us to have children. God will provide."

They don't believe in birth control -- against the "laws of God." Apparently they don't believe in turning down men either.

I went to dinner break and never went back. Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.I would recommend a bus ticket to Utah with some box lunches, these women were undoubtedly in the wrong state.

[Dilloduck]

The crisis management and "need based assistance" seminars are starting to wear on me. Today, for the first time ever, I actually walked out on one. It was an exercise in stupidity.

I was meeting with a very uppity womens shelter supervisor who was trying to "instruct me" in how to deal with certain "need based" groups. One group saw us get into one flowing continuous argument.

I was supposed to feel sympathetic and "counsel" this woman. She was one of 10 (!) children. In return, she has nine children. One of her daughters (17) has a child. Another daughter (15) is pregnant.
My first question was -- why the hell do they have so many children? How about BC, or perhaps keeping your pants on?

Supervisor was irate, almost screaming at me -- it's none of my fucking business. I am there to help them, not to question them.
Excuse me, but you can't help some people without questioning them.

So I ask this near illiterate woman "why do you have so many kids?"
Of course, the answer was "Jesus wants us to have children. God will provide."

They don't believe in birth control -- against the "laws of God." Apparently they don't believe in turning down men either.

I went to dinner break and never went back. Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.

Get out of the business NOW. You will quickly discover that 90% of these "victims" you want to save contribute to their own misery. Judging them is the worst possible thing you can do.

[Said1]

Get out of the business NOW. You will quickly discover that 90% of these "victims" you want to save contribute to their own misery. Judging them is the worst possible thing you can do.

Being a victim is a good distraction from personal responsibilty. Find anyone in an abusive relationship, and you'll find a perpetual victim, shopaholic or both. I like to call them crisis addicts. If they're not being abused in some manner, they'll run up the phone bill, max out a credit card CREATING an abusive situation. It's not funny, it's pathetic. :laugh2:

I used to work for a really good family support program. They understood it took years, not months for many women (in that case) to 'get it'. They have a really good success rate,

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. I think it takes a very compassionate type of person for this kind of job.
2. Some one who understands God and Mankind.
3. If you go into this type of atmosphere, without the knowledge of God, your toast.
4. The destitute, in spirit, end up in these places, and if you have little or no knowledge about why and what gets these peoples in this *Reality*, then you are dumbfounded on what to do and say.
5. You are in way over your head.
6. And its best you never try in the first place.
7. Leave it to the professionals, and grab your XBOX, your help won't help.
8. That's why religious organizations are the best way to help destitute men and women.
9. *Christian Ones.*
10. Understanding human nature and why and what people do commonly get them is dire straits, and how to turn them around is very deep, and misunderstood by most average people.
11. Getting them back on their feet takes firmness, heartfelt compassion, which can't be faked, and positive economical support, with guidance towards self efficiency.
12. If you don't have an understanding of the knowledge of God, its better you stay out of this type of work.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Dilloduck]

Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves.

The dream of every bleeding heart that gets into the "helping" profession.
Such dedication--such sacrifice. :laugh2:

[Mr. P]

It's always interesting to see how young folks react to that first slap of reality up-side the head that shakes their idealist views. They just don't teach that in school.

[Missileman]

I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.

Very good Grasshopper. You have taken the first step on the path to conservativism. :)

[Abbey Marie]

Gabby, please don't pay attention to all the sarcasm. I appreciate your being open about your experiences; it's always a risk around here, lol. I am sure that with time, you will find the right specialty for you, and will carve out your own unique way of working with people that is beneficial to both you and those you counsel.

This reminds me of the missions trip my daughter went on to DC last month. She went out on the streets and interacted and fed some of the homeless population of DC. She told us about one guy they took to lunch, who was so drunk he was slurring his speech and not walking well. Yet he blamed his girlfriend's family for all of his troubles, saying they were "too controlling".
I explained to her that addictions, mental illness, and denial are huge factors in homelessness. I think it really opened her eyes to the reality that many people cause their own problems, and don't really even want to change.

[Nukeman]

It's always interesting to see how young folks react to that first slap of reality up-side the head that shakes their idealist views. They just don't teach that in school.

No one could have put it better, it is so true.


The gov. can give people money until they're blue in the face, but if someone doesn't want to help themselves they will never do any better.

Welcome to the real world gabby, this is what us hard hearted people have been saying for a long time. It's nice to see you've noticed for yourself.

[gabosaurus]

It's all part of the learning process. It's difficult to stress personal responsibility to those who never grew up with it.

When I was interviewing for my future job as an at risk counselor, I was asked some very interesting questions. One of which was "what causes kids to join gangs?"
The answer is -- kids don't have anything else to do.
A lot of low income kids have little parental support. They need to be involved with after school programs. A famous person (who I can't remember -- duh) once said "A kid can't hold a knife or a gun while dribbling a basketball or wearing boxing gloves."
Trouble is, a lot of these programs have been eliminated by budget cuts. They gyms have been closed. The parks are gone. The youth centers are gone.
So kids go out in the streets. And they get other kids to go with them. They start getting into trouble.

You want to cut down on crime? Stop allowing kids to become criminals. Give them something else to do.

You think the "good kids" don't ever become victims of crime? Who do you think buys most of the drugs? It's not the kids with no money.
Let's say your "good kid" has a new car, or new shoes, or new whatever. The poor kids with nothing to do sees your kids and whacks him up side of his head.

Don't want to spend money for social programs? Don't want to spend money to improve neighborhood schools? Deal with the consequences.

[JohnDoe]

How to change this trend of being helpless is where we should be focusing. Someone earlier mentioned that unless you know what is causing this trend, and come up with a way to change it, handing out money will not help.

In the case that Gabby mentioned, the woman, for religious reasons, did not believe in artificial birth control. Then she should be taught to abstain during fertile periods, or the rythmic method which is probably accepted by her Church, if she is a Catholic, and at least an effort should be made on her and her husband's part after 9-10 children already.

She should be shown that God will provide.... feed and clothe her like the Birds and animals on earth as the Bible states and not to worry about such, but it must be noted that God does not put the food right inside the bird's nest....the bird has to go out and fetch it...hunt it, catch it and bring it home to their young!!!

And the multi generation welfare recipiants will never go away without addressing what is truely at the root of the cause imo.

Anyway, i don't feel as Gabby on this one... i actually am more thankful when i come across people that are strangled in their world of helplessness.... I count my blessings that their life is not my life.... i hope that does not sound selfish, i don't mean it to be....i am just thankful for what my husband and i have managed to achieve and overcome and not just financially.

jd

[Said1]

It's all part of the learning process. It's difficult to stress personal responsibility to those who never grew up with it.

When I was interviewing for my future job as an at risk counselor, I was asked some very interesting questions. One of which was "what causes kids to join gangs?"
The answer is -- kids don't have anything else to do.
A lot of low income kids have little parental support. They need to be involved with after school programs. A famous person (who I can't remember -- duh) once said "A kid can't hold a knife or a gun while dribbling a basketball or wearing boxing gloves."
Trouble is, a lot of these programs have been eliminated by budget cuts. They gyms have been closed. The parks are gone. The youth centers are gone.
So kids go out in the streets. And they get other kids to go with them. They start getting into trouble.

You want to cut down on crime? Stop allowing kids to become criminals. Give them something else to do.

You think the "good kids" don't ever become victims of crime? Who do you think buys most of the drugs? It's not the kids with no money.
Let's say your "good kid" has a new car, or new shoes, or new whatever. The poor kids with nothing to do sees your kids and whacks him up side of his head.

Don't want to spend money for social programs? Don't want to spend money to improve neighborhood schools? Deal with the consequences.

Money doesn't fix most problems. Communities need to take their neighbourhoods back. If people have a stake in something, they're more than likely going to protect it. The parks are gone, largely because no one cared. Kids run the streets because no one cares enough to do something about it, from within the community. Get off your soap box, it's not rocket science, Gabby.

What would you do to increase community activism/involvement?

[Said1]

And the multi generation welfare recipiants will never go away without addressing what is truely at the root of the cause imo.



What do you think is the root cause? People obviously repeat what they know, but how do you reprogram people who have been largely raised to fail? Essentially, how to you beat cognitive, self-sabatoging behavior? Or is that cognitive dissonance? Perhaps Gabby, could add to this one, psycology isn't my specialty. :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

What do you think is the root cause? People obviously repeat what they know, but how do you reprogram people who have been largely raised to fail? Essentially, how to you beat cognitive, self-sabatoging behavior? Or is that cognitive dissonance? Perhaps Gabby, could add to this one, psycology isn't my specialty. :laugh2:
Honestly? I don't know how to give someone their "sense of self worth" back to them, i am not a professional in this field, but as an optimist, i believe that this can be done somehow and will work for many, not necessarily all.... i think we are masking the underlying problems the way things are going.

Gabby did hit on a good education, but that is a State's issue here in the USA not a federal issue....regardless, a good education could be the beginning of the awareness of one's self worth, but i think it goes much deeper than just education...this generation to generation of non achievers.

I was about 5 years old when my parents started telling me that if i worked and studied hard enough, i could be the first woman President of the United States....and as a child, I believed them!!!! hahahahahaha! :D I do believe that this was the backbone of my self worth, and achievements in life.

[Said1]

Honestly? I don't know how to give someone their "sense of self worth" back to them, i am not a professional in this field, but as an optimist, i believe that this can be done somehow and will work for many, not necessarily all.... i think we are masking the underlying problems the way things are going.

By masking, is throwing money at it not masking?

In any case, I'm not talking about giving someone their self-worth back. I'm addressing the generational comment you made.



Gabby did hit on a good education, but that is a State's issue here in the USA not a federal issue....regardless, a good education could be the beginning of the awareness of one's self worth, but i think it goes much deeper than just education...this generation to generation of non achievers.

Education is a community issue, globally - the nature of jurisdiction makes no difference.


I was about 5 years old when my parents started telling me that if i worked and studied hard enough, i could be the first woman President of the United States....and as a child, I believed them!!!! hahahahahaha! :D I do believe that this was the backbone of my self worth, and achievements in life.

Do you think those comments v your parents financial/employment situation made a difference or would one have had no affect on the other?

[JohnDoe]

By masking, is throwing money at it not masking?





Do you think those comments v your parents financial/employment situation made a difference or would one have had no affect on the other?



Throwing money at it is masking it imho. This does not mean that i am willing to wipe it out completely tomorrow, but that something different, needs to be done that actually helps....

I think when my parents were telling me those things, we probably qualified for welfare even though my dad was working, but they did not take it. We were very poor when i was young, my father was in the Air Force, my mother sewed my sister's and my clothes to save money and dress us, we had no money, we had HOPE....my parents had HOPE for a better life for my sister and me....and they got it... and some... for themselves!

jd

[5stringJeff]

That's a wonderful expression, Kathianne. I wish I could have used it.
We all have choices to make. If you continually make the wrong choices, it shouldn't be my responsibility to make it right for you.

Be careful Gabby... you might turn into a conservative if you keep thinking that way! :D

[actsnoblemartin]

this is one of the best posts ive seen in a while and youre completely right, people who feel invested in something tend to fight to maintain it.


Money doesn't fix most problems. Communities need to take their neighbourhoods back. If people have a stake in something, they're more than likely going to protect it. The parks are gone, largely because no one cared. Kids run the streets because no one cares enough to do something about it, from within the community. Get off your soap box, it's not rocket science, Gabby.

What would you do to increase community activism/involvement?

[Dilloduck]

It's all part of the learning process. It's difficult to stress personal responsibility to those who never grew up with it.

When I was interviewing for my future job as an at risk counselor, I was asked some very interesting questions. One of which was "what causes kids to join gangs?"
The answer is -- kids don't have anything else to do.
A lot of low income kids have little parental support. They need to be involved with after school programs. A famous person (who I can't remember -- duh) once said "A kid can't hold a knife or a gun while dribbling a basketball or wearing boxing gloves."
Trouble is, a lot of these programs have been eliminated by budget cuts. They gyms have been closed. The parks are gone. The youth centers are gone.
So kids go out in the streets. And they get other kids to go with them. They start getting into trouble.

You want to cut down on crime? Stop allowing kids to become criminals. Give them something else to do.

You think the "good kids" don't ever become victims of crime? Who do you think buys most of the drugs? It's not the kids with no money.
Let's say your "good kid" has a new car, or new shoes, or new whatever. The poor kids with nothing to do sees your kids and whacks him up side of his head.

Don't want to spend money for social programs? Don't want to spend money to improve neighborhood schools? Deal with the consequences.


The answer is -- kids don't have anything else to do.

HOGWASH.

[Said1]

HOGWASH.

*crickets chirpping*

[Immanuel]

Gabby,

Please forgive me for trying to insert some humor here but my first thought was:

A hundred and fifty thousand dollars would be a good start!

Immie

[Yurt]

The crisis management and "need based assistance" seminars are starting to wear on me. Today, for the first time ever, I actually walked out on one. It was an exercise in stupidity.

I was meeting with a very uppity womens shelter supervisor who was trying to "instruct me" in how to deal with certain "need based" groups. One group saw us get into one flowing continuous argument.

I was supposed to feel sympathetic and "counsel" this woman. She was one of 10 (!) children. In return, she has nine children. One of her daughters (17) has a child. Another daughter (15) is pregnant.
My first question was -- why the hell do they have so many children? How about BC, or perhaps keeping your pants on?

Supervisor was irate, almost screaming at me -- it's none of my fucking business. I am there to help them, not to question them.
Excuse me, but you can't help some people without questioning them.

So I ask this near illiterate woman "why do you have so many kids?"
Of course, the answer was "Jesus wants us to have children. God will provide."

They don't believe in birth control -- against the "laws of God." Apparently they don't believe in turning down men either.

I went to dinner break and never went back. Fuck that. I prefer to help people who want to help themselves. Not people who only want a hand out.

your husband must be sleeping better at night knowing you are slowly turning into a conservative

:D

[Yurt]

How to change this trend of being helpless is where we should be focusing. Someone earlier mentioned that unless you know what is causing this trend, and come up with a way to change it, handing out money will not help.

In the case that Gabby mentioned, the woman, for religious reasons, did not believe in artificial birth control. Then she should be taught to abstain during fertile periods, or the rythmic method which is probably accepted by her Church, if she is a Catholic, and at least an effort should be made on her and her husband's part after 9-10 children already.

She should be shown that God will provide.... feed and clothe her like the Birds and animals on earth as the Bible states and not to worry about such, but it must be noted that God does not put the food right inside the bird's nest....the bird has to go out and fetch it...hunt it, catch it and bring it home to their young!!!

And the multi generation welfare recipiants will never go away without addressing what is truely at the root of the cause imo.

Anyway, i don't feel as Gabby on this one... i actually am more thankful when i come across people that are strangled in their world of helplessness.... I count my blessings that their life is not my life.... i hope that does not sound selfish, i don't mean it to be....i am just thankful for what my husband and i have managed to achieve and overcome and not just financially.

jd

it is selfish to think that way. i do it. but i am trying to overcome that mentality. instead, i am training myself to simply count my own blessings. i do not know the blessings that someone else receives. i may "perceive" them to be less than i, but i would be wrong. who are we to know such things? many would say -- thank goodness i am not handicap. well, my brother is and he lives a pretty good life. he has always been "reality" test. everytime i get consumed and irrational in my own life it is because i have forgotten that i have a handicap brother. when i remember, then my life centers again and i realize what a selfish asshole i can be.

i'm not coming down on you, for i do the same thing, just voicing my thoughts