American workers blown to pieces

[truthmatters]

http://thepumphandle.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/outcry/

Do you care that they were allowed to be killed in the name of favoring corporations over American lives?



Since George W. Bush became president, OSHA has issued the fewest significant standards in its history, public health experts say. It has imposed only one major safety rule. The only significant health standard it issued was ordered by a federal court.The agency has killed dozens of existing and proposed regulations and delayed adopting others. For example, OSHA has repeatedly identified silica dust, which can cause lung cancer, and construction site noise as health hazards that warrant new safeguards for nearly three million workers, but it has yet to require them.

The title of the article was “OSHA Leaves Worker Safety in Hands of Industry.”

What does the constitution mean by “ensure the general welfare?” Should the President be expected to enforce the laws passed by Congress and signed by previous presidents? Is it a problem that we’re about to complete two terms of a presidency without a single major new OSHA standard being issued (aside from court order or Congressional pressure). Should corporate executives whose careers have been dedicated to fighting worker and consumer protections be named to head the very agencies dedicated to protecting people? Do “accidents just happen,” or are the souls lost in Jacksonville and Savannah the result of government malfeasance? And why isn’t there an outcry?

[MtnBiker]

What does this have to do with the 2008 elections?

[truthmatters]

That John McCain willl continue the same policies.

[hjmick]

That John McCain willl continue the same policies.

What? You a mind reader now? What bills did Congress and OSHA put on Bush's desk regarding worker safety did he refuse to sign?

[Immanuel]

That John McCain willl continue the same policies.

And you get this information from what source?

Immie

[Nukeman]

http://thepumphandle.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/outcry/

Do you care that they were allowed to be killed in the name of favoring corporations over American lives?



Since George W. Bush became president, OSHA has issued the fewest significant standards in its history, public health experts say. It has imposed only one major safety rule. The only significant health standard it issued was ordered by a federal court.The agency has killed dozens of existing and proposed regulations and delayed adopting others. For example, OSHA has repeatedly identified silica dust, which can cause lung cancer, and construction site noise as health hazards that warrant new safeguards for nearly three million workers, but it has yet to require them.

The title of the article was “OSHA Leaves Worker Safety in Hands of Industry.”

What does the constitution mean by “ensure the general welfare?” Should the President be expected to enforce the laws passed by Congress and signed by previous presidents? Is it a problem that we’re about to complete two terms of a presidency without a single major new OSHA standard being issued (aside from court order or Congressional pressure). Should corporate executives whose careers have been dedicated to fighting worker and consumer protections be named to head the very agencies dedicated to protecting people? Do “accidents just happen,” or are the souls lost in Jacksonville and Savannah the result of government malfeasance? And why isn’t there an outcry?Are you honestly telling me that we have to have a NEW standard for safety issued every day/week/month/year for a organization like OSHA to be effective?? Does OSHA answer directly to the President?

Maybe just maybe OSHA has ENOUGH safety standards in place for most businesses to run safely. Some businesses wouldn't care if new safety standards are in place they ignore the old ones why not the new ones. OSHA is already too involved with the day to day operations of companies, and you want more.

From all your post YOU want the government to tell you the following

1. when to get up
2. when to eat breakfast
3. what to eat for breakfast
4. what type of toothpaste to use (gotta be safe)
5. what type of job you should have (can't have you getting above yorself)
6. what type of car to drive(can't be to fast, use too much gas must be safe)
7. when to go to lunch
8. what to have for lunch (gotta be healthy and safe)
9. when to leve for home
10. where to live (gotta be safe)
11. what to watch on TV (can't be violent or of adult content)
12. What time to go to bed (everyone needs at least 8 hours)
13. what postition to sleep in (some are better than others)
14. etc.....etc.....etc....


YOU can not have the government involved in EVERY FREAKING THING IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. My God woman you would have a government agency in the bedroom to make sure eveyone was having sex the right way just so no one felt left out..

Government works best when you dont know government is working. That means LESS government not MORE......................:slap:

[Nukeman]

And you get this information from what source?

ImmieShe pulled it out of her ass like most other things she comes up with...:laugh2:

[Sir Evil]

And you get this information from what source?

Immie

The source of imagination. :laugh2:

[truthmatters]

Tell me why you think McCain will not continue the same policy of not regulating business further?

It seems to me you people are always talking about getting off the backs of business?

Take a look at Nukemans response.

He compairs the loss of these Americans life to toothpaste.

[avatar4321]

moved to the political thread because its got nothing to do with the 2008 election.

You know the thing about self government is that you have to trust people to govern themselves. Why don't you?

[Immanuel]

Tell me why you think McCain will not continue the same policy of not regulating business further?

You make the accusation. It is your responsibility to prove it. Until you attempt to do so, no one can discuss it because you have presented no argument to discuss.

Immie

[hjmick]

From the link you posted:

Former CSB Chair (and Bush appointee) Carolyn Merritt:

“This is an extremely dangerous component that is not regulated,” former safety board chairwoman Carolyn Merritt told The Associated Press Friday. Dust explosion situations “are so dangerous that people have got to pay attention to this. There should be an outcry.”


So, someone did raise an alarm, and still OSHA did nothing. Yet somehow it is all Bush's fault. Come on.

I'll be the first to tell you that Bush is not the brightest start in the galaxy, but not everyhting is his fault. This whole Bush/Republican derangement syndrome is old and tiresome. I think it's time you find something new.

[Sir Evil]

Tell me why you think McCain will not continue the same policy of not regulating business further?

It seems to me you people are always talking about getting off the backs of business?

Take a look at Nukemans response.

He compairs the loss of these Americans life to toothpaste.

How about you tell us why he will continue it as you already insinuated it?

[Monkeybone]

why do you think that he will? anohter question that i have, is how could they have prevented these explosions? unless i read it wrong, there were accidents that involved additives, not negligence from someone ignoring OSHA protocol or because of non-exisitent ones

and nice strech of trying to make it look like Nuke is comparing American lives to toothpaste.

[hjmick]

Take a look at Nukemans response.

He compairs the loss of these Americans life to toothpaste.

He is comparing nothing. He is suggesting that you believe the government should be involved in the lives of Americans to the extent that they would regulate our choice of toothpaste as well as regulate other mundane aspects of our lives.

[MtnBiker]

National News Release: 08-162-NAT
Feb. 4, 2008
Contact: Sharon Worthy David Sims
Phone: 202-693-4676 202-693-1898


President's fiscal year 2009 budget request for U.S. Department of Labor's OSHA increases federal enforcement and compliance assistance efforts

WASHINGTON -- Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health Edwin G. Foulke Jr. today announced that President Bush has requested $501.7 million for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in fiscal year (FY) 2009. The request represents a boost of nearly $15.7 million over the fiscal year 2008 level.

Foulke explained that the increase will support agency efforts to improve workplace safety and health through compliance assistance and enforcement of occupational safety and health regulations and standards. "We are proposing to increase resources by more than $11.3 million to support enforcement programs, and $5.2 million to provide compliance assistance to employers and employees, especially small businesses," said Foulke. "The president's proposed budget provides us the resources we need to continue making a positive impact on workplace safety and health. This budget reinforces our balanced approach to employee safety and health - an approach that works."

Since 2001, OSHA has implemented a balanced approach consisting of aggressive enforcement, cooperative programs, outreach, education and compliance assistance, which has yielded the lowest workplace fatality and injury and illness rates on record. During this same period, the overall fatality rate has dropped by 9 percent, and it has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees.


OSHA FY 2009 Proposed Budget (Highlights)

The president's FY 2009 proposed budget will enable OSHA to continue making progress in its efforts to keep driving workplace injuries, illnesses and loss of life toward zero. Results indicate that OSHA's strategies are working. Fatality and injury and illness rates have continued to decline to record lows. The injury and illness incidence rate of 4.4 per 100 employees for calendar year (CY) 2006 was the lowest ever recorded. Workplace fatality rates hit an all-time low in CY 2006 with 3.9 fatalities per 100,000 employees
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=14940




That John McCain willl continue the same policies.

Your febile display of Bush hatered and the attempting of projecting it onto McCain will hardley be an election issue.

[avatar4321]

http://OSHA FY 2009 Proposed Budget (Highlights)





Your febile display of Bush hatered and the attempting of projecting it onto McCain will hardley be an election issue.

let me see if i understand this. She is objecting to current policies which have seen record lows on injuries?

TM, come on. atleast try to live up to your name.

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration


In 2000, OSHA issued the ergonomics standard after ten years of study and struggles with a Republican-controlled Congress and business associations such as the Chamber of Commerce and National Association of Manufacturers that were unconvinced that additional government regulation was the right way to address the issue of ergonomic injuries to American workers. Ergonomic injuries (also known as musculoskeletal injuries) such as back injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome, account for 1/3 of all serious injuries suffered by American workers.[citations needed] In March 2001, the Republican controlled Congress voted to repeal the standard and the repeal was one of the first major pieces of legislation signed by President George W. Bush. Since the repeal of the ergonomics standard, OSHA has issued three ergonomics guidelines, and only a small handful of ergonomic citations under the Act's "general duty" clause.[citation needed]






The Bush administration has largely replaced the process of issuing mandatory regulations with voluntary guidelines and put additional resources into other, previously existing voluntary programs, as well as new "Alliance" program. In 2004, the General Accounting Office issued a report report recommending that the Agency collect more data from participants in order to better ascertain the benefits of the program. A GAO report released in 1992 concluded that employers participating in the program benefited from significant cost reductions in workers' compensation premiums while improving labor productivity.

It is a some times held misconception that the Agency promotes "voluntary compliance" when, in fact, all employers are required by law to comply with all final published rules promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970.


MB your OSHA link does not work.

Does this make these Americans un dead now?

[Monkeybone]

whew...now that i know what wikipedia has to say on OSHA i can sleep and feel safer at my work place

[Sir Evil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_Safety_and_Health_Administration


In 2000, OSHA issued the ergonomics standard after ten years of study and struggles with a Republican-controlled Congress and business associations such as the Chamber of Commerce and National Association of Manufacturers that were unconvinced that additional government regulation was the right way to address the issue of ergonomic injuries to American workers. Ergonomic injuries (also known as musculoskeletal injuries) such as back injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome, account for 1/3 of all serious injuries suffered by American workers.[citations needed] In March 2001, the Republican controlled Congress voted to repeal the standard and the repeal was one of the first major pieces of legislation signed by President George W. Bush. Since the repeal of the ergonomics standard, OSHA has issued three ergonomics guidelines, and only a small handful of ergonomic citations under the Act's "general duty" clause.[citation needed]

The Bush administration has largely replaced the process of issuing mandatory regulations with voluntary guidelines and put additional resources into other, previously existing voluntary programs, as well as new "Alliance" program. In 2004, the General Accounting Office issued a report report recommending that the Agency collect more data from participants in order to better ascertain the benefits of the program. A GAO report released in 1992 concluded that employers participating in the program benefited from significant cost reductions in workers' compensation premiums while improving labor productivity.

It is a some times held misconception that the Agency promotes "voluntary compliance" when, in fact, all employers are required by law to comply with all final published rules promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970.

How about a response to the questions asked of you instead of adding more links that don't address your claim?

[April15]

All worker protection laws go into the crapper when repubs are in office. Whats new about that. When I was working underground in the early 70's if you had a cavein it was common to just work around the dead and keep laying pipe. No reports from OSHA or anyone just a letter from foreman or supervisor explaining that the ground gave way and all shoring was in place.

[MtnBiker]

MB your OSHA link does not work.



Works now, it is directly from OSHA itself. Fatalities are at an all time low, the President has asked for an increase in the OSHA budget. Your contention was this would be an election issue, considering the two previous stated facts OSHA will certainly not be an election issue. Your projection of Bush hatered has little traction on this issue, you can keep trying but beyond the Bush hateing crowd it will not resonate.

[truthmatters]

How can I answer his question when it appears his information can not be verified?


Are these people now not dead because Bush is allotting money from someone elses term to Osha?

[hjmick]

That's one. One.

I do, however, have a question stemming from this portion of your post:


It is a some times held misconception that the Agency promotes "voluntary compliance" when, in fact, all employers are required by law to comply with all final published rules promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970.

Okay, so, if all employers are required by law to comply with "all final published rules promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970," why is the repeal signed by Bush an issue? Shouldn't OSHA make their "guidelines on ergonomics" part of their rules? Why haven't they done this? And if the guidelines qualify as "final published rules," why the lack of enforcement?

[Sir Evil]

How can I answer his question when it appears his information can not be verified?


Are these people now not dead because Bush is allotting money from someone elses term to Osha?

Again, this has what to do with McCain or just another chance to blast Bush?

[Sir Evil]

When I was working underground

Seems the appropiate location for you... :D

[MtnBiker]

Fatalities are at an all time low, that means lives are being saved. Are the lives being saved because of Bush?

[hjmick]

Fatalities are at an all time low, that means lives are being saved. Are the lives being saved because of Bush?

You're kidding, right?

[Monkeybone]

MB's link works for me. how convenient. ooooooooo i went there!

if you really read about OSHA and how it was weakened by repubs. it was because they made it work with the companies instead of letting them dictate whatever rules they wanted cuz they could because, hey...they were OSHA. it was costing the companies more for stupid little rules and therefore making the products cost more.

and for the caveins...it was supposed to help make rules to avoid them, not to do anything about the dead bodies. if anything, you couldn't touch them cuz of OSHA standards with blood-borne pathogens and the likes. of course those weren't really implemented until later.

[Sir Evil]

Fatalities are at an all time low, that means lives are being saved. Are the lives being saved because of Bush?

Bush can kill, save, create natural catastrophies, hell even fool everyone into voting for him. The guy has serious magic.

[MtnBiker]

You're kidding, right?

Well, the Bush hating Truthmatters is trying to imply that the fatalities in the Savanah sugar factory are because of Bush, however fatalities and injuries are at an all time low. So are the lives saved due to Bush?

[Monkeybone]

That's one. One.

I do, however, have a question stemming from this portion of your post:



Okay, so, if all employers are required by law to comply with "all final published rules promulgated under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970," why is the repeal signed by Bush an issue? Shouldn't OSHA make their "guidelines on ergonomics" part of their rules? Why haven't they done this? And if the guidelines qualify as "final published rules," why the lack of enforcement?

like alot of Regulation Makers, they "anounce" when there will be a surprise inspection or brother (sister for you ladies) stores call and warn that there are inspectors coming. and for that day, everyone follows the rules. then when they leave, it's back to working normally. heaven forbid common sense be used in a work place.

atleast the above has been my experince at Wally World.

[MtnBiker]

So how is Obama or Clinton going to make this an issue with McCain? How will this be an election issue?

[hjmick]

Well, the Bush hating Truthmatters is trying to imply that the fatalities in the Savanah sugar factory are because of Bush, however fatalities and injuries are at an all time low. So are the lives saved due to Bush?

Come on, MtnBiker, we all know this is a direct result of the Clinton years and the Democrats. The Republicans and Bush want to kill us all while they take money from the lobbyists.

[Monkeybone]

Bush can kill, save, create natural catastrophies, hell even fool everyone into voting for him. The guy has serious magic.

that just ain't magic, that is some voodoo shit right there. :eek: that is why he got rid of NO!!! so that he could be the supreme voodoo master!!!! :tinfoil:

[Sir Evil]

that just ain't magic, that is some voodoo shit right there. :eek: that is why he got rid of NO!!! so that he could be the supreme voodoo master!!!! :tinfoil:

:lol::lol:

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

[Sir Evil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

92 to 01 were the highest, again the point you are trying to make?

[hjmick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

Damn, Clinton killed a shitload of American workers during his eight years. :poke: :coffee:

[Mr. P]

92 to 01 were the highest, again the point you are trying to make?

That she's an IDIOT without a case but too much of a MORON to know it.

[Sir Evil]

Damn, Clinton killed a shitload of American workers during his eight years. :poke: :coffee:

:lol::lol:

[Sir Evil]

That she's an IDIOT without a case but too much of a MORON to know it.

:laugh2:

I wonder if there might be a wikpedia link about her?

[truthmatters]

http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=410

[Mr. P]

That she's an IDIOT without a case but too much of a MORON to know it.


http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=410

See what I mean?

[truthmatters]

This has been a known issue for years now. It has Killed Americans and regulation would have prevvented these deaths.

Rebuplicans can laugh and pretend these lives dont mean anything but it is obvious proof that poor oversite of industry cost American workers lives.

[Sir Evil]

See what I mean?

Yes sir, I think anyone else can as well. :laugh2:

[Sir Evil]

This has been a known issue for years now. It has Killed Americans and regulation would have prevvented these deaths.

Rebuplicans can laugh and pretend these lives dont mean anything but it is obvious proof that poor oversite of industry cost American workers lives.

Again, or perhaps once again will be better, this has what to do with McCain? You posted enough links without checking facts to realize that it's not just a republican issue. :poke:

[Monkeybone]

http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=410

damn OSHA and not regulating falling debris! they need a complete overhaul!......or......are you saying that Bush was throwing crap at the workers? devilish bastard!

[truthmatters]

http://www.csb.gov/completed_investigations/docs/ReactiveHazardInvestigationReport.pdf


This study by The U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board done in October of 2002 warned of this exact hazard and the need to refine industry standards in dealing with Reactive incidents.

Death means nothing to you people?

[Monkeybone]

This has been a known issue for years now. It has Killed Americans and regulation would have prevvented these deaths.

Rebuplicans can laugh and pretend these lives dont mean anything but it is obvious proof that poor oversite of industry cost American workers lives.

they knew that there was gonna be a runaway chemical reaction that they haven't even finished investigating yet? HOLY CRAP!

have you been drinking and watching 'Early Edition' re-runs again TM?

[Sir Evil]

http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=410


This study by The U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board done in October of 2002 warned of this exact hazard and the need to refine industry standards in dealing with Reactive incidents.

Death means nothing to you people?

There should be death to these ignorant posts of yours.

[Monkeybone]

http://www.csb.gov/index.cfm?folder=news_releases&page=news&NEWS_ID=410


This study by The U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board done in October of 2002 warned of this exact hazard and the need to refine industry standards in dealing with Reactive incidents.

Death means nothing to you people?

you even read the links you post?

[MtnBiker]

Fatalities, injuries and illnessess as a percentage are at an all time low, does not mean anything to you?

How are Obama or Hillary going to make this a vote winning issue against McCain?

[truthmatters]

http://www.csb.gov/completed_investigations/docs/ReactiveHazardInvestigationReport.pdf


This study by The U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board done in October of 2002 warned of this exact hazard and the need to refine industry standards in dealing with Reactive incidents.

Death means nothing to you people?


This is a corrected link. Sorry I accidently put the ohter one in there first.

[Sir Evil]

This is a corrected link. Sorry I accidently put the ohter one in there first.

Try answering the questions presented without posting your useless links that support nothing that you have suggested.

[truthmatters]

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=14940





Your febile display of Bush hatered and the attempting of projecting it onto McCain will hardley be an election issue.



This is the links to the osha report


Since 2001, OSHA has implemented a balanced approach consisting of aggressive enforcement, cooperative programs, outreach, education and compliance assistance, which has yielded the lowest workplace fatality and injury and illness rates on record. During this same period, the overall fatality rate has dropped by 9 percent, and it has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees.





Fatalities, injuries and illnessess as a percentage are at an all time low, does not mean anything to you?

How are Obama or Hillary going to make this a vote winning issue against McCain?



This report says they have dropped 9 percent since 2001 not an all time low.

[MtnBiker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

That is a cute link, now post one that shows the increase of the US workforce.

[Sir Evil]

This is the links to the osha report


Density at it's finest...:rolleyes:

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif


Take a look at the chart and realize why they used the 2001 number.

[MtnBiker]

The whole point of this thread was a febile attempt showing hatered at Bush and a winning election issue against McCain. Exactly how is that going to happen?

[Sir Evil]

Take a look at the chart and realize why they used the 2001 number.

Is it possible that you could explain that in your own words without another link?

[Sir Evil]

The whole point of this thread was a febile attempt showing hatered at Bush and a winning election issue against McCain. Exactly how is that going to happen?

What else is new?

[Monkeybone]

Thanks TM, that makes more sense now. Egads! 150 pages?!?! i do have a life that doesn't revolve around Chemical Safety! hahaha

yes, the gist of the report is chemical safety and such. and when working with such chemicals you need to be careful as with anything.

this is another one of those cases where we need to wait until the investigation is done and they know what really went wrong. all we know now is that a chemical reaction got out of hand and that a byproduct of it is hyrdogen and then BOOM! nothing as of yet that there was any OSHA violation or that any new ones could have prevented it.the thing is that they were working with dangerous chemicals and reaction. keyword there: dangerous. just because you do something safely once, doesn't guarantee that it will go perfectly the next time.

[manu1959]

This is the links to the osha report
Since 2001, OSHA has implemented a balanced approach consisting of aggressive enforcement, cooperative programs, outreach, education and compliance assistance, which has yielded the lowest workplace fatality and injury and illness rates on record. During this same period, the overall fatality rate has dropped by 9 percent, and it has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees.
This report says they have dropped 9 percent since 2001 not an all time low.

i can see hillary and obama now.....

senator mccain we are very concerned that you planning to continue bush's polices concerning osha that have resulted in an overall fatality rate that has dropped by 9 percent, and has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees, an overal drop of 9 percent since 2001 .....

ya that should realy play well....

truthmatters kicks her own ass again.....

[Mr. P]

This is the links to the osha report


Since 2001, OSHA has implemented a balanced approach consisting of aggressive enforcement, cooperative programs, outreach, education and compliance assistance, which has yielded the lowest workplace fatality and injury and illness rates on record. During this same period, the overall fatality rate has dropped by 9 percent, and it has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees.

This report says they have dropped 9 percent since 2001 not an all time low.

READ THE BIG TYPE OF YOUR OWN POST, MORON!

[Sir Evil]

READ THE BIG TYPE OF YOUR OWN POST, MORON!

:lol::lol:

[manu1959]

READ THE BIG TYPE OF YOUR OWN POST, MORON!

that evil bush......making sure workers are more safe.....

she will be back shortly to claim victory.....

[truthmatters]

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?fi

I have been searching for the actual numbers and am having a hell of a time finding them.

This gives the number through 2006 and still calls them preliminary numbers. I believe they have a waiting period in which the injured may die from their injuries.

It does not look like they could have conclusive numbers for 2007 yet so it seems someone is massaging the numbers a little.


Change Output Options: From: 2003 2004 2005 2006 To: 2003 2004 2005 2006

Data extracted on: February 14, 2008 (4:45:48 PM)

Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries

Series Id: FIU00X00000080N00Area: All U.S.Case Type: Fatalities in all sectorsCategory: AllIndustry: All workers

Year Annual
2003 5575
2004 5764
2005 5734
2006 5703(p)
p : preliminary

[Sir Evil]

It does not look like they could have conclusive numbers for 2007 yet so it seems someone is massaging the numbers a little.

Try massaging you brain once in awhile.

[manu1959]

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost


I have been searchihng for the actual numbers and am having a hell of a time finding them.

This gives the number through 2006 and still calls them preliminary numbers. I believe they have a waiting period in which the injured may die from their injuries.

It does not look like they could have conclusive numbers for 2007 yet so it seems someone is massaging the numbers a little.

good link thanks....


Notice

Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:42 PM

Sorry, survey does not exist. If you need to contact someone about the program or its data, please send a message to the data questions e-mail address below or call the phone number below.

even the internet knows you are full of shit...

[manu1959]

Try massaging you brain once in awhile.


bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Sir Evil]

good link thanks....


Notice

Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:42 PM

Sorry, survey does not exist. If you need to contact someone about the program or its data, please send a message to the data questions e-mail address below or call the phone number below.

even the internet knows you all full of shit...

:laugh2:

Happens often for the copy & pasters, what a dumbass!

[jimnyc]

I can't believe you guys continue to argue with this ignoramus. She can't even speak for herself. She replies with links, and links that prove herself wrong! She's about as dense as they come.

[manu1959]

I can't believe you guys continue to argue with this ignoramus. She can't even speak for herself. She replies with links, and links that prove herself wrong! She's about as dense as they come.

we don't argue with her ..... we simply provide her with a forum to lose arguments to herself....

[Missileman]

This is the links to the osha report


Since 2001, OSHA has implemented a balanced approach consisting of aggressive enforcement, cooperative programs, outreach, education and compliance assistance, which has yielded the lowest workplace fatality and injury and illness rates on record. During this same period, the overall fatality rate has dropped by 9 percent, and it has fallen by 22 percent among Hispanic employees.








This report says they have dropped 9 percent since 2001 not an all time low.

It clearly states lowest on record, which is the same thing as all time low.

[Nukeman]

READ THE BIG TYPE OF YOUR OWN POST, MORON!I was just reading thru this thread and I have to say you caught that first!!!

TM you are soo freaking denxe it isn't even funny. You read headlines but dont bother to READ the areticle. Half of what you post is in direct contradiction of what your trying to say.

As for my comparing the death of these worker to "toothpaste" is rediculous. Hjmick pointed out to you it is your love of big government I was attempting to make you see but your too blind to see beyond the end of your own agenda..:slap:

[jimnyc]

It clearly states lowest on record, which is the same thing as all time low.

She won't address this now that she has been proven wrong for like the 3000th time here. Not to mention, I don't think she's capable of grasping the incredibly in depth statement you just made.

[truthmatters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

The number of deaths in 2001 were 5,915 , what is a 9 % drop from that number?

Its roughly 54.

That would make it 5,861 deaths. How is that an all time low if you look at the other years in the chart.

You are taking the word of the people who run Osha who have become part of the problem. Why did they not release numbers with their report?

This situation I was talking about in this post is Reactive Incidents. They have been brought to the attention of this body and have not been acted on and now people like the ones in Florida are dead.

You can pretend this is not the truth but it is.

Yes I missed that they were calling it an all time low. You were right and I was wrong on that point. The problem is that even if you take the numbers and compare them to what they claim it does not come out to an all time low.

[jimnyc]

The Scarecrow (if I only had a brain) has returned!

We can't help it that you aren't bright enough to read the same crap you post yourself, or that you take wikipedia to be your gospel as opposed to figures straight from sources.

Tell them to break out the paddles, charge 'em to 450 and see if they can bring some activity back for you!

[Nukeman]

[url].

Yes I missed that they were calling it an all time low. You were right and I was wrong on that point. The problem is that even if you take the numbers and compare them to what they claim it does not come out to an all time low.
Once again YOU dont understand what YOU post. the numbers are based on the number of people WORKING. That means the numbe of accidents per 100 workers.

do the math moron if you have 1000 workers and have 100 accidents it the same as having 10,000 workers and having 1000 accidents.

[truthmatters]

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04378.pdf


Then why dont they supply the numbers.

The GAO has requested they do the due diligence to support their claims to better document their claims also.


The people i talked about in the begining of theis thread are still dead.
The cause of their deaths was brought to the attention of this body years before they died. The body did nothing to change the requirements on business to prevent their deaths. That is what OSHA is for.

[jimnyc]

The people i talked about in the begining of theis thread are still dead.
The cause of their deaths was brought to the attention of this body years before they died. The body did nothing to change the requirements on business to prevent their deaths. That is what OSHA is for.

And you tried to lay the blame on Bush and/or the current administration. You've been asked already and failed to reply, but I'll ask again - what was brought forth that could have improved things that the Republicans shot down? What did the Republicans do that made things worse? Don't just make a stab in the dark, please give us specifics.

[TheSage]

And you tried to lay the blame on Bush and/or the current administration. You've been asked already and failed to reply, but I'll ask again - what was brought forth that could have improved things that the Republicans shot down? What did the Republicans do that made things worse? Don't just make a stab in the dark, please give us specifics.

Maybe republicans could have brought something forth? WHy do you love cancer, jimmy?

[jimnyc]

Maybe republicans could have brought something forth? WHy do you love cancer, jimmy?

I'd say having the lowest record in history means something IS being done correctly. And isn't it possible that the Dems could have brought something forth?

[truthmatters]

The head of OSHA is a bush appointment. Bush admin has used voluntary compliance and has not created any new guidlines except for one which was forced by a court case. OSHA was made aware of the problem with Reactive Incidents (which killed these people) long ago. The previous admin was drafting guidelines for them and the Bush incoming people dropped the effort to curb the incidents. The GOA has told OSHA that their results from voluntary compliance seems promising but would like them to actually document them for proof.

All the facts back my point on this case. You can scream about me missing the line in OSHAs own report about best ever results which I have already admitted missing but that is still not a documented fact if they refuse to actually supply the numbers for examination.

[Sir Evil]

The head of OSHA is a bush appointment. Bush admin has used voluntary compliance and has not created any new guidlines except for one which was forced by a court case. OSHA was made aware of the problem with Reactive Incidents (which killed these people) long ago. The previous admin was drafting guidelines for them and the Bush incoming people dropped the effort to curb the incidents. The GOA has told OSHA that their results from voluntary compliance seems promising but would like them to actually document them for proof.

All the facts back my point on this case. You can scream about me missing the line in OSHAs own report about best ever results which I have already admitted missing but that is still not a documented fact if they refuse to actually supply the numbers for examination.

Hey butthead, how about the original accusation you made, where does this include McCain? Perhaps you can find a link for that one?

[jimnyc]

Are you going to directly answer my specific questions, TM? What guidelines have been brought forth or suggested by Democrats that have been rejected? Can you answer that and my prior questions?

[jimnyc]

Hey butthead, how about the original accusation you made, where does this include McCain? Perhaps you can find a link for that one?

Don't ask her too much at once, she'll need to go take a nap and we won't have more links for hours!

[Sir Evil]

Don't ask her too much at once, she'll need to go take a nap and we won't have more links for hours!

I dunno why anyone bothers asking her anything, the dumbass does nothing but cut & paste, and when questioned about something she completely ignores it.
:rolleyes:

[truthmatters]

Documenting is not one of you guys favorite things. It seems that the Bush admin agrees with you guys.

Cutting and pasting is a way of documenting the facts which support this case.

Facts seem to scare many of you. WHY?

[Sir Evil]

Documenting is not one of you guys favorite things. It seems that the Bush admin agrees with you guys.

Cutting and pasting is a way of documenting the facts which support this case.

Facts seem to scare many of you. WHY?

Ok, so the facts that McCain has anything to do with this which is one thing you already suggested?

Copying & pasting for everything one posts is a simple solution for someone who doe's not know how to express their own opinions, or in your case just for the simple minded.

[truthmatters]

No they are facts. I have done more than cuttting and pasting here and that is plain for all those who are honest.

McCain is the in agreement with this current admin. He even agrees with Bush's plan for immigration which many of you hate.

[jimnyc]

Documenting is not one of you guys favorite things. It seems that the Bush admin agrees with you guys.

Cutting and pasting is a way of documenting the facts which support this case.

Facts seem to scare many of you. WHY?

TM, can you please answer my specific questions? Failure to do so is the same as admitting you are a hack with no specifics to backup your accusations and assertions.

[Sir Evil]

No they are facts. I have done more than cuttting and pasting here and that is plain for all those who are honest.

McCain is the in agreement with this current admin. He even agrees with Bush's plan for immigration which many of you hate.

Ok, so cut & pasts some facts on how McCain is going to further the agenda on this subject.

[jimnyc]

No they are facts. I have done more than cuttting and pasting here and that is plain for all those who are honest.

McCain is the in agreement with this current admin. He even agrees with Bush's plan for immigration which many of you hate.

Ok, if it is a fact, please give us something to go on that McCain agrees with the Bush administration on whatever it is you feel they are doing wrong regarding OSHA. Since it's a fact, you should be able to give us something rather easily.

[truthmatters]

http://www.johnmccain.com/Supporters/



He is supported by people who are in agreement with the neocon agenda.

[Sir Evil]

http://www.johnmccain.com/Supporters/



He is supported by people who are in agreement with the neocon agenda.

You're a fucking idiot!

[truthmatters]

Are you going to directly answer my specific questions, TM? What guidelines have been brought forth or suggested by Democrats that have been rejected? Can you answer that and my prior questions?

I already did.

The last admin was working on guidlines for this issue while leaving office ,the incoming Bush appointees dropped the plan.

[jimnyc]

I already did.

The last admin was working on guidlines for this issue while leaving office ,the incoming Bush appointees dropped the plan.

No, you didn't answer my 3 specific questions. But thank you for being honest and admitting that you have made baseless accusations once again, without any merit, and are incapable of answering the most basic of questions.

You are a complete waste of time. You post nothing but gibberish and almost always refuse to answer specific questions to backup your retarded claims. And when you do answer anything, it's generally with a link because you're obviously too stupid to comprehend anything yourself.

Thanks for playing.

Goodnight.

[truthmatters]

Lott
Bolten
Ridge
Thompson
Baker
Forbes
Jebb Bush
Giuliani
Gramm
Powell



These are the same people who have backed Bush unwaveringly.

[jimnyc]

Brains
Common Sense
Intelligence
Comprehension

Things that TM severely lacks

[Sir Evil]

Lott
Bolten
Ridge
Thompson
Baker
Forbes
Jebb Bush
Giuliani
Gramm
Powell



These are the same people who have backed Bush unwaveringly.

Goodnight was the best response as yet another post that has zilch to do with the question.

[truthmatters]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/11/656316.aspx

Back to personal attacks?

If Jeb endorses McCain and now Daddy Bush too how can you say he is not the Bush candidate?

[Sir Evil]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/11/656316.aspx

Back to personal attacks?

If Jeb endorses McCain and now Daddy Bush too how can you say he is not the Bush candidate?

How can you say he will be advancing the Bush policy when you have done nothing except post a link to McCains supporters?

Some facts douche bag?

[Mr. P]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Number_of_Fatal_Work_Injuries_1992-2006.gif

The number of deaths in 2001 were 5,915 , what is a 9 % drop from that number?

Its roughly 54.

.

Maybe you need a remedial math class to go along with remedial reading comprehension.

9% of 5,915 is 532.35, not 54. MORON!

[truthmatters]

The people who have supported the Bush presidency all along think McCain is the guy they will choose.

EVEN THE BUSH FAMILY!

[Sir Evil]

Maybe you need a remedial math class to go along with remedial reading comprehension.

9% of 5,915 is 532.35, not 54. MORON!

To say the least. She epitomizes the word moron!

[Mr. P]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/11/656316.aspx

Back to personal attacks?

If Jeb endorses McCain and now Daddy Bush too how can you say he is not the Bush candidate?

Because McCain is the likely republican nominee and GH Bush and Jeb are both.........ready....ya sure.....they're both republicans! You MORON! It has nothing to do with "their" selection of a candidate.

[truthmatters]

Maybe you need a remedial math class to go along with remedial reading comprehension.

9% of 5,915 is 532.35, not 54. MORON!

You got me there.


I sure hope those number are correct because it would mean many more lives saved.

I blew it big time there.


I sure wish that OSHA would document their numbers like the GOA asked.






http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/021608dnpolmccain41.9cbc8c.html



When asked about criticism of McCain by conservative commentators Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter, the president said, "I think that if John is the nominee, he has got some convincing to do to convince people that he is a solid conservative and I'll be glad to help him if he is the nominee."

Bush said some of the criticism of McCain was the result of "probably, some personal animosity toward me. You can't please all the people all the time."

[Mr. P]

You got me there.


I sure hope those number are correct because it would mean many more lives saved.

I blew it big time there.

You blow it big time with most every post, TM. Your hate blinds any intellect you may have.

[truthmatters]

I would be two less deaths than in 2002 ,the previously lowest year.

I wonder if the loss of manufacturing jobs in the US effects those numbers?


http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?fi


Wierd, they have gone up.

[hjmick]

I wonder if the loss of manufacturing jobs in the US effects those numbers?


http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost

:lmao: Okay, there you go. It's Bush's fault that there has been a loss of manufacturing jobs, therefore there has been a drop in on the job fatalities. So in the end Bush has saved lives because people loss their jobs due to his policies! :lol: :clap: :laugh2: :poke:

We rarely agree, TM, but I do give you credit for strring things up around here.

[Nukeman]

You're a fucking idiot!
Yeppers, she sure is!!!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol:

[truthmatters]

Mining deaths are up too

[Immanuel]

Damn, Clinton killed a shitload of American workers during his eight years. :poke: :coffee:

I wonder if Vince Foster is included in those numbers?


This has been a known issue for years now. It has Killed Americans and regulation would have prevvented these deaths.

Rebuplicans can laugh and pretend these lives dont mean anything but it is obvious proof that poor oversite of industry cost American workers lives.

What I simply don't understand is if the number of deaths has gone down then why are you blaming Bush? It seems to me that he is doing something right. It would simply be wonderful if we had a year with zero work related deaths, but I don't think that will ever happen.

The deaths of those workers is tragic. However, it is just plain wrong to blame Bush for those deaths and refuse to give him credit for the decreasing numbers of accidents and death.

The decreasing numbers is proof that he has done something right in this area despite your rhetoric.


The people who have supported the Bush presidency all along think McCain is the guy they will choose.

EVEN THE BUSH FAMILY!

What does that have to do with this? Nothing! They are Republicans. McCain is the only Republican candidate left in the running. One would expect everyone of those people to endorse McCain for the good of the party. Having done so, does not mean that those people agree with McCain or that McCain agrees with them. It only means that party loyalty is important to them. Well, duh! who would a thunk that?

Immie

[truthmatters]

Immy this thread was started to talk about Reactive incidents issue. These are the facts about it .

It has been a recognised problem and the previous admin was working on restrictions to prevent these types of workplace deaths. The Bush admin and their OSHA appointee dropped the issue on entering the job. They then chose a path of voluntary compliance by industry instead of cumplusory compliance. They have failed to provide documentation of the seeming successes they have garnered. There are people who are dead who would not have died in their workplace had the new regulations on how to deal with Reactive Incidents had been adopted. All they had to do was implement the new standards in dealing with these chemicals.

They really should document any claimed successes dont you think?

[Immanuel]

Immy this thread was started to talk about Reactive incidents issue. These are the facts about it .

It has been a recognised problem and the previous admin was working on restrictions to prevent these types of workplace deaths. The Bush admin and their OSHA appointee dropped the issue on entering the job. They then chose a path of voluntary compliance by industry instead of cumplusory compliance. They have failed to provide documentation of their seeming successes they have garnered. There are people who are dead who would not have died in their workplace had the new regulations on how to deal with Reactive Incidents had been adopted. All they had to do was implement the new standards in dealing with these chemicals.

They really should document any claimed successes dont you think?

It seems to me that they have. Didn't you post stats earlier that showed that the number of deaths and accidents have decreased? That would be considered documentation in any book I know of.

Immie

[Monkeybone]

Bush and OSHA strike again! i mean seriously...why didn't they make them contruct better piplines? first, a not yet explained chemical reactions and now faulty gas lines. what's next? someone getting shocked while working on a transformer? when will bush stop it all??!!?!??

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330799,00.html

http://www.themonitor.com/articles/f...as_county.html

with all of this happening, i just don't see him getting re-elected next year. and McCain is surely to follow in his footsteps by blowing up factories.

[truthmatters]

It seems to me that they have. Didn't you post stats earlier that showed that the number of deaths and accidents have decreased? That would be considered documentation in any book I know of.

Immie

They have fluctuated up and down from what I could find.

There are no numbers for 2007 to be found. All the numbers I find for 2006 are called preliminary. I think there may be a period of designated time in which non immediate deaths are still recorded under the year of accident.

Police do this with homicides. If the person has deemed to die due to the results of the injury in a crime (even years later) they can then call it a homocide and charge it accordingly.

[Trigg]

[url]
You are taking the word of the people who run Osha
.

lol, says the person who thinks wikipedia is the gods honest truth.

[Trigg]

They have fluctuated up and down from what I could find.
There are no numbers for 2007 to be found. All the numbers I find for 2006 are called preliminary. I think there may be a period of designated time in which non immediate deaths are still recorded under the year of accident.

Police do this with homicides. If the person has deemed to die due to the results of the injury in a crime (even years later) they can then call it a homocide and charge it accordingly.

The reason the numbers arn't here for 2007 is because it has only been 2008 for a month and a half. OSHA doesn't compile the numbers they are sent in by the different companies, this takes longer than a whole....one month. If the numbers arn't reported OSHA doesn't know about them.

Not having numbers for 2007 doesn't mean "someone" is massaging the numbers.

It usually takes a year to get firm numbers together, the US is a big place.


Bolded portion: You are an outright lier, YOUR post #68 shows the number and they don't fluctuate they show a downward trend.

[Lee~*]

Are you honestly telling me that we have to have a NEW standard for safety issued every day/week/month/year for a organization like OSHA to be effective?? Does OSHA answer directly to the President?

Maybe just maybe OSHA has ENOUGH safety standards in place for most businesses to run safely. Some businesses wouldn't care if new safety standards are in place they ignore the old ones why not the new ones. OSHA is already too involved with the day to day operations of companies, and you want more.

From all your post YOU want the government to tell you the following

1. when to get up
2. when to eat breakfast
3. what to eat for breakfast
4. what type of toothpaste to use (gotta be safe)
5. what type of job you should have (can't have you getting above yorself)
6. what type of car to drive(can't be to fast, use too much gas must be safe)
7. when to go to lunch
8. what to have for lunch (gotta be healthy and safe)
9. when to leve for home
10. where to live (gotta be safe)
11. what to watch on TV (can't be violent or of adult content)
12. What time to go to bed (everyone needs at least 8 hours)
13. what postition to sleep in (some are better than others)
14. etc.....etc.....etc....


YOU can not have the government involved in EVERY FREAKING THING IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. My God woman you would have a government agency in the bedroom to make sure eveyone was having sex the right way just so no one felt left out..

Government works best when you dont know government is working. That means LESS government not MORE......................:slap:

Once again, I have to totally agree with Nukeman! Congress has better and bigger fish to fry than sticking their noses in everyones private business! You cannot legislate Morality or Safety! Maybe ya'll liberal morons should try to get them to pass a law against accidents! That would make more sense (in your eyes) . Then "accidents" would be illegal and there should be no more problems from them! And after that, perhaps you could have them pass laws against hurricanes and earthquakes, and even asteroids! Just think how much peace of mind we would get out of that! No self respecting hurricane would dare to break the law .... Ya right! Ya'll heads must be somewhere up your ass! Lee~*

[truthmatters]

The reason the numbers arn't here for 2007 is because it has only been 2008 for a month and a half. OSHA doesn't compile the numbers they are sent in by the different companies, this takes longer than a whole....one month. If the numbers arn't reported OSHA doesn't know about them.

Not having numbers for 2007 doesn't mean "someone" is massaging the numbers.

It usually takes a year to get firm numbers together, the US is a big place.


Bolded portion: You are an outright lier, YOUR post #68 shows the number and they don't fluctuate they show a downward trend.

Then why are they claiming 2007 had the lowest rate ever?

To do this you have to KNOW the number of deaths in 2007 dont you?

They did not publish the actual numbers yet they claim they are the lowest ever.


Trig that chart was not created by wiki , wiki just had a link to it.


Lee Reactive Incidents are a chemical reaction which can be prevented with proper handling of the materials. Do you actually sugest they should just be allowed to handle them wrong creating the danger to human life. Lets remember that not just people who worked for this company were hurt. The surrounding area was effected by this explosion which caused a huge mushroom cloud and percussive injuries to people outside of the compay.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/19/florida.explosion/index.html

[manu1959]

That John McCain willl continue the same policies.

back on topic....

the same policies as bush ..... lowest rates ever .... and proven by your own links ....

[jimnyc]

Then why are they claiming 2007 had the lowest rate ever?

Because if you had any comprehension skills, or reading skills for that fact, you would see that the record low levels reported are for 2006.

[Lee~*]

Then why are they claiming 2007 had the lowest rate ever?

To do this you have to KNOW the number of deaths in 2007 dont you?

They did not publish the actual numbers yet they claim they are the lowest ever.


Trig that chart was not created by wiki , wiki just had a link to it.


Lee Reactive Incidents are a chemical reaction which can be prevented with proper handling of the materials. Do you actually sugest they should just be allowed to handle them wrong creating the danger to human life. Lets remember that not just people who worked for this company were hurt. The surrounding area was effected by this explosion which caused a huge mushroom cloud and percussive injuries to people outside of the compay.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/19/florida.explosion/index.html

Perhaps we should have them pass a law against human error too???? Lee~*

[Lee~*]

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to the loss of human life. It is a tragic thing. But, in all fairness, can anyone truly prevent human error? I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality, and anyone who thinks that it can be done is delusional to say the least. Sorry if that offends any of ya'll ... Lee~*

[manu1959]

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to the loss of human life. It is a tragic thing. But, in all fairness, can anyone truly prevent human error? I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality, and anyone who thinks that it can be done is delusional to say the least. Sorry if that offends any of ya'll ... Lee~*

well there are laws that legislate both morality and safety....

[Lee~*]

well there are laws that legislate both morality and safety....

But I'd venture to say that they are only obeyed by those who are already moral and use good old fashioned common sense to be safe ... Lee~*

[manu1959]

But I'd venture to say that they are only obeyed by those who are already moral and use good old fashioned common sense to be safe ... Lee~*

I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality..... it would seem you can legislate it but you believe you don't need to.....

[Immanuel]

I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to the loss of human life. It is a tragic thing. But, in all fairness, can anyone truly prevent human error? I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality, and anyone who thinks that it can be done is delusional to say the least. Sorry if that offends any of ya'll ... Lee~*


well there are laws that legislate both morality and safety....

Not to argue fine points with you Lee~, but when you get right down to it just about all laws are based upon someone's idea of morality.

For instance, Blue Laws are based on the belief that people should be in church on Sunday morning not out buying liquor. That's a moral judgment. The basic speed law is another example. It is someone's moral judgment that you should not drive your car too fast and risk killing or injuring other citizens. Me? I think I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want and anyone driving faster than me is a complete idiot, while anyone that drives slower than I do and has the balls to get in my way is an f'ing moron. :D

The same holds true for Driving Under the Influence and really just about any law can be whittled down to someone's idea of morality in my humble opinion.

Can you legislate morality? Sure you can. If Roe v Wade were overturned and abortion were instantly illegal we would be legislating morality. That doesn't mean the law is not going to be broken, but break the law and you will suffer the consequences.

Immie

[Immanuel]

well there are laws that legislate both morality and safety....


I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality.....

Um, excuse me but don't those to statements contradict each others?

:dunno:


But I'd venture to say that they are only obeyed by those who are already moral and use good old fashioned common sense to be safe ... Lee~*

Ah, now I understand what you are saying. You're not saying that legislation can't be developed on moral grounds, but rather that you can't make an immoral person follow those laws.

Immie

[manu1959]

Um, excuse me but don't those to statements contradict each others?

:dunno:

Immie


one was a quote of lee and the other mine......

[Immanuel]

one was a quote of lee and the other mine......

It was? Did you not put the one about standing firm in quotes. That makes sense, but it just looked funny. Then again 3-4 hours sleep the past week and a half is beginning to wear on me.

Immie

[Mr. P]

Ah, now I understand what you are saying. You're not saying that legislation can't be developed on moral grounds, but rather that you can't make an immoral person follow those laws.

Immie

And therefore you can't legislate morality. I just don't understand why so many keep trying.

[Lee~*]

I stand firm on my belief that you cannot legislate safety or morality..... it would seem you can legislate it but you believe you don't need to.....

I think the government has better things to do than attempt to "legislate" every aspect of my personal life. There are people who are good, moral law abiding folks, and they are going to be that way whether or not there is a law directing them to be. There are others who live to flaunt laws, and no matter what you "legislate" they are going to do the opposite.

You can pass a law against owning a gun, and all the good folks will turn theirs in, but the bad folks will keep theirs, and then where will we be? And tell me, Do you obey the speed limit when you are driving? That is a law ... and if you exceed it, you are breaking it ... period. Theres not a grey area here, you are either abiding by the law or breaking it ... black and white.

To commit suicide is illegal ... wow ... like a suicidal person gives a crap. What are you going to do to them for commiting suicide? Lock up their body? I mean, lets get real here. There are tons of frivilous laws on the books, passed for only God knows what reasons. Do we really want the government to legislate every aspect of our lives? I go back to what Nukeman said so well! I see that you haven't called him out on it, and yet, all I've done is agree with him! Lee~*

[Immanuel]

And therefore you can't legislate morality. I just don't understand why so many keep trying.

Actually, I disagree with you. The way I define it (you can look it up as well as I can) the verb legislate is the act of creating laws. It has nothing to do with whether or not those laws are followed.

What I am saying is that when a law is written, passed and signed on moral grounds, we have legislated morality. The act has been done. It is now the job of law enforcement to enforce morality upon all us immoral individuals.

But then that is just my interpretation and it is open to interpretation by others. :D

Immie

[Lee~*]

Um, excuse me but don't those to statements contradict each others?

:dunno:



Ah, now I understand what you are saying. You're not saying that legislation can't be developed on moral grounds, but rather that you can't make an immoral person follow those laws.

Immie

Bingo Immie! That what I'm trying to say! You get the gold star for the day ***** Lee~*

[actsnoblemartin]

arent we ignoring a fundamental question.

do business have an obligation to keep their employees safe?

if they do not, does the government have a right/responsibility to step in and protect the workers.

Perhaps tm's question was not the best, but lets not jump down her throat please

[Immanuel]

Bingo Immie! That what I'm trying to say! You get the gold star for the day ***** Lee~*

Right now, I'd prefer a bottle of White Zinfindel!

:laugh2:

Immie

[actsnoblemartin]

safety of american workers, is a political issue.

therefore, it is an issue, how much the american government regulates business, not just in areas of safety but all areas of business.

But im open to you showing me, where im wrong


What does this have to do with the 2008 elections?

[Immanuel]

do business have an obligation to keep their employees safe?

Yes, business does have an obligation to keep employees safe. Although, they should not always be held responsible when accidents happen. They should not be held responsible if there was no negligence involved on their part. Accidents happen.



if they do not, does the government have a right/responsibility to step in and protect the workers.


In some respects, yes, the government does have the right and responsibility to protect workers. Businesses have a moral obligation to protect employees from unsafe working conditions, but not all employers are moral people/corporations. The government has the responsibility to insure that workers are protected from those employers who just don't give a damned about the "dime a dozen" employees.

Your question could be asked, "does the government have the right or responsibility to protect underage children from unfair labor practices?"

Of course the government should protect children from employers who would throw them into sweatshops at nickel an hour wages forcing them to work 18 hour days. The same holds true for employee safety.

Immie

[truthmatters]

This is a Chemical reaction problem. Reactive incidents involve the the chemistry of powered and or gaseous agents allowed to build up and being sparked to cause an explosion.

This thread was started about a particular type of problem which was never enforced. It would have saved lives if it had been enforced.

[jimnyc]

This is a Chemical reaction problem. Reactive incidents involve the the chemistry of powered and or gaseous agents allowed to build up and being sparked to cause an explosion.

This thread was started about a particular type of problem which was never enforced. It would have saved lives if it had been enforced.

No it wasn't, you've been all over the radar in your attempts to place blame amongst republicans. You speak of OSHA overall, then claim McCain will do the same, you bring in other Republicans who support Bush, you try to wiggle with the numbers only to be proven wrong...

And yet the questions I asked to be answered specifically by you remain unanswered. Care to try again, I'll repeat myself:

What was brought forth that could have improved things that the Republicans shot down?

What did the Republicans do that made things worse?

What have the Democrats done to improve what you feel is wrong?

Please give us something to go on that McCain agrees with the Bush administration on whatever it is you feel they are doing wrong regarding OSHA?

[truthmatters]

http://thepumphandle.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/outcry/

Do you care that they were allowed to be killed in the name of favoring corporations over American lives?



Since George W. Bush became president, OSHA has issued the fewest significant standards in its history, public health experts say. It has imposed only one major safety rule. The only significant health standard it issued was ordered by a federal court.The agency has killed dozens of existing and proposed regulations and delayed adopting others. For example, OSHA has repeatedly identified silica dust, which can cause lung cancer, and construction site noise as health hazards that warrant new safeguards for nearly three million workers, but it has yet to require them.

The title of the article was “OSHA Leaves Worker Safety in Hands of Industry.”

What does the constitution mean by “ensure the general welfare?” Should the President be expected to enforce the laws passed by Congress and signed by previous presidents? Is it a problem that we’re about to complete two terms of a presidency without a single major new OSHA standard being issued (aside from court order or Congressional pressure). Should corporate executives whose careers have been dedicated to fighting worker and consumer protections be named to head the very agencies dedicated to protecting people? Do “accidents just happen,” or are the souls lost in Jacksonville and Savannah the result of government malfeasance? And why isn’t there an outcry?


Go read the first few paragraphs of this story.

[jimnyc]

Go read the first paragraph of this story.

Doesn't answer any of my questions. What's wrong, you can't answer on your own? Are you too stupid to backup something you are writing about yourself? If you want to make retarded claims, you need to be prepared to answer questions backing up your assertions. So far, you have danced around the issue and refused to answer me.

Why not reply to each question specifically, like an adult.

[truthmatters]

What was brought forth that could have improved things that the Republicans shot down?

What did the Republicans do that made things worse?

What have the Democrats done to improve what you feel is wrong?

Its all in the article jim and when I said it in my own words you ignored it.

Clinton administration was in the early stages of rulemaking before the Bush administration pulled the action off of OSHA’s regulatory agenda.

More than five years after the CSB’s recommendation was issued, OSHA has refused to act. In typical Bush Administration fashion, instead of revising the PSM regulation, OSHA established an “Alliance” of chemical industry associations and published a reactive chemical webpage. The Alliance involved setting up booths at chemical industry conferences, occasional presentations about Alliance activities, and two actual training workshops that trained a total of 36 students. In 2004, the CSB evaluated OSHA’s response and judged it “unacceptable,” and the Alliance was terminated in March 2007.

One week after the CSB’s preliminary report on the Jacksonville explosion, Representatives George Miller (D-CA), Chair of the House Committee on Education and Labor, and Lynn Woolsey (D-CA), Chair of the Workforce Protections Subcommittee (later joined by Jacksonville Congresswoman Corrine Brown (D)), sent a letter to OSHA suggesting that this incident might have been prevented had OSHA complied with the CSB’s recommendation. The legislators called on the agency to take “immediate steps to revise the Process Safety Management Standard to improve the control of reactive hazards as recommended by the Chemical Safety Board.”

[jimnyc]

Its all in the article jim and when I said it in my own words you ignored it.

Nice try, simpleton, but again you are wrong. The only thing you mention is how the Bush administration stopped what the Clinton administration started. And guess what? The fatality records are at all time record lows!

You've not provided any of the legislation I've asked for. Bush has been in office for 8 years, surely the Democrats have done something to make changes that would please you. What specifically was it that they did that was shot down? So far, the only evidence you want to give us points to record lows!

I'll answer for you - "The Democrats brought forth NO legislation to make changes within OSHA that have been shot down by Republicans". "I want to blame Republicans so badly for the downfall of OSHA standards but unfortunately the record low numbers make me look like a complete dope".

[truthmatters]

It would help if OSHA would document their "successes" like the GAO requested now wouldnt it.

These deaths still took place and all they had to do to prevent them is to finish the job Clinton started to refine the rules on handling these situation.

You are the one claiming them dems did nothing. How do I know you are telling me the truth?

Did the Democrats control OSHA? NO.

Did Bush get to appoint who he wanted to control OSHA? yes.

[Sir Evil]

It would help if OSHA would document their "successes" like the GAO requested now wouldnt it.



Well there you have it fart brain, you present something as factual while make wild accusations but now say that OSHA doesn't document things. So what is it, fact or fiction? I'm easily lead to believe coming from you that it's fiction all the way.

[manu1959]

It would help if OSHA would document their "successes" like the GAO requested now wouldnt it.

These deaths still took place and all they had to do to prevent them is to finish the job Clinton started to refine the rules on handling these situation.

You are the one claiming them dems did nothing. How do I know you are telling me the truth?

Did the Democrats control OSHA? NO.

Did Bush get to appoint who he wanted to control OSHA? yes.

did deaths rise or decline under bush......

[truthmatters]

did deaths rise or decline under bush......


Both




http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2371:

This is a law Kennedy proposed in 2004

[manu1959]

Both

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2371:

This is a law Kennedy proposed in 2004

so the "facts" you posted stating they declined were lies....

[truthmatters]

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04378.pdf

The GAO said in their report that the numbers looked promising and they would like OSHA to document them better.

You can say anything you want if you dont have to document what you say huh?

[manu1959]

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04378.pdf

The GAO said in their report that the numbers looked promising and they would like OSHA to document them better.

You can say anything you want if you dont have to document what you say huh?

your own links state there was a decline.....did you not read what you linked to.....

[truthmatters]

Did you not read that the GAO says they are not properly documenting their claimed successes?

[manu1959]

OSHA FY 2009 Proposed Budget (Highlights)

The president's FY 2009 proposed budget will enable OSHA to continue making progress in its efforts to keep driving workplace injuries, illnesses and loss of life toward zero. Results indicate that OSHA's strategies are working. Fatality and injury and illness rates have continued to decline to record lows. The injury and illness incidence rate of 4.4 per 100 employees for calendar year (CY) 2006 was the lowest ever recorded. Workplace fatality rates hit an all-time low in CY 2006 with 3.9 fatalities per 100,000 employees

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...SES&p_id=14940

evil evil evil.......

[truthmatters]

And you will later call that a waste of money when the democrats are in office.

[manu1959]

Did you not read that the GAO says they are not properly documenting their claimed successes?

actually the gao states, in the executive summary of their report, that osha's voluntary program is working....and they would like it fully evaluated before it is expanded.....

which means bush's programs are working.....

next.....

[manu1959]

And you will later call that a waste of money when the democrats are in office.

the democrats are in control of congress and osha is a waste of money.....

[truthmatters]

"Much of its Data is insufficient for evaluation"


Read the second paragraph.

It tells of who they are not documenting their results.

[Trigg]

And you will later call that a waste of money when the democrats are in office.

So you completely loose any argument you were trying to make.....again.

You start by trying to blaim the republicans.

NOW your trying to say we will complain about safety spending. No, I don't think we will. We want people to be safe.

How about you try something news. Next time have some actual proof, instead of just a republican in charge. READ your article before posting it, this will cut down on you looking stupid because you read it wrong. Stop contradicting yourself, again it makes you look stupid.

[manu1959]

"Much of its Data is insufficient for evaluation"

Read the second paragraph.

It tells of who they are not documenting their results.

well if no one is getting hurt or being killed i would imagine that could result in a lack of paper documenting death and injury.....

so as you said mccain will probably follow in mr bush's footsteps....and the free market and voluntary will be proven to be better than mandatory regulations resulting in fewer deaths and injuries and less paperwork......

i guess we can only hope that under o'hillary we have a lot more paper documenting all the deaths and injuries during their socialist regime.....

[Lee~*]

I am learning soo much here, let me see, how do we split an already twice split hair?? I think we need to go back to the whole root of this thing. That being ... we are humans, we are NOT perfect. We will upon occasion do stupid things, and one of these stupid things may kill us. Now, I have it from several highly reliable sources that NONE of us are getting out of this life ALIVE. Some of us just might be little more creative in the method of our demise. Shit happens ... deal with it. No matter how many laws, rules, regulations, etc. that you make up, it will not ultimately change those basic facts ... so, wake up and smell the coffee, YOU are the person ultimately responsible for your own safety, actions, and morality. If you cannot handle this, you may remove yourself from the gene pool. :coffee: Alrighty then?? Lee~*

[Lee~*]

Do ya'll have any statistics on how many people have been saved by those reports you are hashing to bits ???? Just thought I'd ask! Lee~*

[truthmatters]

I am learning soo much here, let me see, how do we split an already twice split hair?? I think we need to go back to the whole root of this thing. That being ... we are humans, we are NOT perfect. We will upon occasion do stupid things, and one of these stupid things may kill us. Now, I have it from several highly reliable sources that NONE of us are getting out of this life ALIVE. Some of us just might be little more creative in the method of our demise. Shit happens ... deal with it. No matter how many laws, rules, regulations, etc. that you make up, it will not ultimately change those basic facts ... so, wake up and smell the coffee, YOU are the person ultimately responsible for your own safety, actions, and morality. If you cannot handle this, you may remove yourself from the gene pool. :coffee: Alrighty then?? Lee~*


When you have a known chemical reaction you can prevent if you modify how you deal with the chemicals and adopting that modification can saves lives then it is smart to do it dont you think?

There are things you cant prevent and things you can prevent. Its smart and humane to prevent deaths you can pervent huh?

[Lee~*]

When you have a known chemical reaction you can prevent if you modify how you deal with the chemicals and adopting that modification can saves lives then it is smart to do it dont you think?

There are things you cant prevent and things you can prevent. Its smart and humane to prevent deaths you can pervent huh?

Of course I'm all for "perventing" death if at all possible! <DUH> I think that falls under the " take the responsiblilty to protect yourself" idea. Are you suggesting that we need to make it a law that people must use common sense in business practices? And, if there was such a law, would it have stopped what happened at the sugar plant? One thing I am sure of is that there aren't any laws that the enforcement of will bring those folks back.Why don't we just make a decree? From here on out everyone needs to pratice common sense, and if you cannot or will not conform, please remove yourself from the gene pool immediately! :coffee: The biggest part of the problem as I see it, is that a bunch of namby pamby, do-gooder, bunny/tree hugging liberals have decided that anything that happens to you has just GOT to be someone elses fault ... so, if you follow the logical (?) sequence of this train of thought, you go up the ladder to where its all the governments fault, they should have prevented it, write a law against it! If its illegal, surely it can't ever happen again! I think I'll call my congressman tomorrow and tell him he needs to propose a bill to outlaw hurricanes, earthquakes, and other assorted natural disasters ... that will help keep us safe.

Wow ... have we totally departed from reality here? Must be the lingering effects of all that dope I smoked back in the 70's 1 :laugh2: :poke: I have spoken, and it is good, now pass the pipe. Lee~*