do you believe islam is a religion of peace

[actsnoblemartin]

why or why not?

some evidence to consider

http://prosites-prs.homestead.com/14muslimconflicts.html

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm307784.html

http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/Commentary/IslamHistory0212.aspx

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria20_1b.htm

[manu1959]

the religion yes.....

some of the people that are practicing it now....

no.....

they are living in the 1st century and still fighting the crusades....

[avatar4321]

i couldn't care less. what I do care about is that Islamic extremists are killing people who disagree with them.

[actsnoblemartin]

The issue at hand is islam, not christianity, judaism, or any other religion.

Please stick to the topic, and tell me what about islam makes it peaceful or warlike.

If you wish to discuss other religions, and what youre views on them are, please make your own thread, but not derail mine, with going off topic, moral equivalency, or any personal attacks.

Im here about evidence, You may obviously present counter evidence against, what i put, but pleast stay on topic

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree heavily with this assessment. Based on evidence im researched islam is not a religion of peace.

However, I know a couple of peaceful muslims, and do not believe all muslims share war like and evil ambitions.

I would like to see someone do a thread, about any other religion, pro or con.


the religion yes.....

some of the people that are practicing it now....

no.....

they are living in the 1st century and still fighting the crusades....

[retiredman]

my personal experience living in a muslim society has led me to believe that that Islam, itself, has a bunch of generally peaceful and friendly adherents.

I agree with avatar that the problem is islamic extremists who do not represent the norm in muslim society, IMHO and in my experience.

[glockmail]

The religion was started by a child rapist who used war to further his religion. Its expansion has always been by the sword, and its goal is to take over the world. How can it be a peaceful religion?

[manu1959]

The religion was started by a child rapist who used war to further his religion. Its expansion has always been by the sword, and its goal is to take over the world. How can it be a peaceful religion?

it is all how those that choose to practice it .... practice it .....

i seem to recall a time long ago when christianity was spread by the sword .... things can and do change.... it is up to the individual not the thing...

[glockmail]

it is all how those that choose to practice it .... practice it .....

i seem to recall a time long ago when christianity was spread by the sword .... things can and do change.... it is up to the individual not the thing... As I recall my history Christianity used the sword to take back what was taken- by Muslims. That's not quite the same, is it?

[manu1959]

As I recall my history Christianity used the sword to take back what was taken- by Muslims. That's not quite the same, is it?

really....i recall people being killed in spain and the new world and england that had nothing to do with muslims....

[Yurt]

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[retiredman]

really....i recall people being killed in spain and the new world and england that had nothing to do with muslims....

and the tens of thousands of Jews (Christ killers) slasughtered by the Crusaders in Europe just to build the bloodlust in their "holy" armies of peasants.

[retiredman]

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


do I need to go get all the gory passages from Leviticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy?

[Yurt]

do I need to go get all the gory passages from Leviticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy?

those are contextual to certain battles that had to occur to the oppression of God's people and the sin in existence at "that time."

the passage i quoted is not contextual at all, it is a command for all time.

are you going to throw red herrings and logical fallacies throughout this thread? and discuss only islam?

[manu1959]

and the tens of thousands of Jews (Christ killers) slasughtered by the Crusaders in Europe just to build the bloodlust in their "holy" armies of peasants.

every religion has been missmanged by some moron at some point......the catholics and protestants in northern ireland seem to get on well.....

[retiredman]

those are contextual to certain battles that had to occur to the oppression of God's people and the sin in existence at "that time."

the passage i quoted is not contextual at all, it is a command for all time.

are you going to throw red herrings and logical fallacies throughout this thread? or are you going to be man enough and discuss only islam?

I am suggesting that there are passages in the Bible which bespeak a certain predilection to violence.... yet most of the world's Jews and Christians do not take them as guidance that is relevant to today's world. I believe that there are passages in the Quran that are treated similarly by contemporary muslims.

As I said in the beginning. I would imagine that I am one of very few people on this board who has actually lived in a muslim society. I have first hand knowledge of how they treat "infidels" when it is THEIR turf. I never felt hatred or a any sense of animosity towards me because I was not a muslim. I only occasionally felt animosity because I was an American in a town that had been bombed with ordinance made in America by a country (Israel) that we uncritically and unconditionally supported....and that only from actual PLO fighters. To the contrary, I was welcomed into muslim homes and invited to muslim weddings, and treated with great respect and affection by many many many muslims.

[Yurt]

I am suggesting that there are passages in the Bible which bespeak a certain predilection to violence.... yet most of the world's Jews and Christians do not take them as guidance that is relevant to today's world. I believe that there are passages in the Quran that are treated similarly by contemporary muslims.

As I said in the beginning. I would imagine that I am one of very few people on this board who has actually lived in a muslim society. I have first hand knowledge of how they treat "infidels" when it is THEIR turf. I never felt hatred or a any sense of animosity towards me because I was not a muslim. I only occasionally felt animosity because I was an American in a town that had been bombed with ordinance made in America by a country (Israel) that we uncritically and unconditionally supported....and that only from actual PLO fighters. To the contrary, I was welcomed into muslim homes and invited to muslim weddings, and treated with great respect and affection by many many many muslims.

this is all babble. i don't care what "contempory muslims" think, for there no such thing as a contempory muslims.

kindly address the passage in the quran, not the bible, the quran. and prove to me that the passage is not for all time and that Islam's goal is not to conquer and subjugate the entire world under islam law.

that is the proposition we are discussing.

[manu1959]

this is all babble. i don't care what "contempory muslims" think, for there no such thing as a contempory muslims.

kindly address the passage in the quran, not the bible, the quran. and prove to me that the passage is not for all time and that Islam's goal is not to conquer and subjugate the entire world under islam law.

that is the proposition we are discussing.

do not all religions want all people to be saved by their "god".....

[Yurt]

do not all religions want all people to be saved by their "god".....

is this the same as "saved?"

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


or is this about submission

[Kathianne]

is this the same as "saved?"

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


or is this about submission

So, would you 'pay' to avoid having your head chopped off? Seems easy enough. Cave.

[nevadamedic]

my personal experience living in a muslim society has led me to believe that that Islam, itself, has a bunch of generally peaceful and friendly adherents.

I agree with avatar that the problem is islamic extremists who do not represent the norm in muslim society, IMHO and in my experience.

Yup and 9/11 is a peaceful, loving and caring reminder how peaceful and loving that religion actually is.

[retiredman]

this is all babble. i don't care what "contempory muslims" think, for there no such thing as a contempory muslims.

kindly address the passage in the quran, not the bible, the quran. and prove to me that the passage is not for all time and that Islam's goal is not to conquer and subjugate the entire world under islam law.

that is the proposition we are discussing.


the passage says what it says. you can make the claim that it is considered binding and relevant today and all I can do is tell you that my personal experience tells me otherwise. The same bible was in place when crusaders slaughtered jews in europe just to work up the fighting spirit of their serf armies.... yet we do not consider christianity to be an inherently violent faith.

but if you want to consider them all your enemy because of a passage in the Quran, go for it.

[manu1959]

is this the same as "saved?"

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


or is this about submission

convince others to belive in "god" ..... submission to "god" .....turning ones life over to "god" ..... sounds like a sermon my pastor gave a while back....

see i don't believe any particular religion or lack thereof creates evil ..... there are simply evil people that can pervert anything to further their evil agenda .....

[manu1959]

Yup and 9/11 is a peaceful, loving and caring reminder how peaceful and loving that religion actually is.


the religion didn't cause 911 evil people caused 911 ..... blaming religion is like blaming guns for a murder ..... in the wrong hands...

[Kathianne]

the religion didn't cause 911 evil people caused 911 ..... blaming religion is like blaming guns for a murder ..... in the wrong hands...

read The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11.

[Yurt]

convince others to belive in "god" ..... submission to "god" .....turning ones life over to "god" ..... sounds like a sermon my pastor gave a while back....

see i don't believe any particular religion or lack thereof creates evil ..... there are simply evil people that can pervert anything to further their evil agenda .....

do we make non christians pay tithe?


Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[manu1959]

do we make non christians pay tithe?

willing submission to god.....

[Yurt]

the passage says what it says. you can make the claim that it is considered binding and relevant today and all I can do is tell you that my personal experience tells me otherwise. The same bible was in place when crusaders slaughtered jews in europe just to work up the fighting spirit of their serf armies.... yet we do not consider christianity to be an inherently violent faith.

but if you want to consider them all your enemy because of a passage in the Quran, go for it.

your personal experience has relevence on the quran? you do realize that the vast majority of muslims believe that islam will conquer the entire world and that the verse i quoted will come true.

i have debated this very point on an islamic board and the resounding answer was that the verse is true and that islam will in fact control the world entirely before the end.

you are welcome to your opinion, however, i strongly suggest though you actually read what islamic scholars and most muslims have to say on this.

[Yurt]

willing submission to god.....

tax = jizyra

and what about "and" feeling subdued

it is an ayat of force

and allah is not God

[manu1959]

your personal experience has relevence on the quran? you do realize that the vast majority of muslims believe that islam will conquer the entire world and that the verse i quoted will come true.

i have debated this very point on an islamic board and the resounding answer was that the verse is true and that islam will in fact control the world entirely before the end.

you are welcome to your opinion, however, i strongly suggest though you actually read what islamic scholars and most muslims have to say on this.

well if christianity is in fact the one true religion then ..... the muslims will not be able to take over the world....

[Kathianne]

well if christianity is in fact the one true religion then ..... the muslims will not be able to take over the world....

How many are practicing Christians? How many are willing to die for their faith? Ask the same of Islam. Owned.

[retiredman]

your personal experience has relevence on the quran? you do realize that the vast majority of muslims believe that islam will conquer the entire world and that the verse i quoted will come true.

i have debated this very point on an islamic board and the resounding answer was that the verse is true and that islam will in fact control the world entirely before the end.

you are welcome to your opinion, however, i strongly suggest though you actually read what islamic scholars and most muslims have to say on this.


believing that Islam will become the religion of the world does not mean that Islam is not a religion of peace. Are Christians not called upon to spread the gospel to non-believers. Is it not OUR goal to bring everyone into the fold? Does that mean that Christianity is not a religion of peace?

[manu1959]

tax = jizyra

and what about "and" feeling subdued

it is an ayat of force

and allah is not God

yes i know and it also says willing submission and in their religion allah is god.....without people religion could not harm anyone.....

leaders use religion to control people.....every religion has been "used" at some point by someone for evil purposes......the third world uses islam....

[manu1959]

How many are practicing Christians? How many are willing to die for their faith? Ask the same of Islam. Owned.

i would guess that a christian would willingly die to protect their religion.....

[Kathianne]

believing that Islam will become the religion of the world does not mean that Islam is not a religion of peace. Are Christians not called upon to spread the gospel to non-believers. Is it not OUR goal to bring everyone into the fold? Does that mean that Christianity is not a religion of peace?

Are you willing to say that Jesus is not the messiah, rather Muhammed is the prophet and he speaks regarding the 'real' god?

[retiredman]

Are you willing to say that Jesus is not the messiah, rather Muhammed is the prophet and he speaks regarding the 'real' god?

Am I willing to say that? Of course not. But then, I am a Christian. I fully accept that others do not share my belief and, alternatively, believe that THEIR deity is omnipotent. That does not mean that they are not "peaceful".

[Yurt]

yes i know and it also says willing submission and in their religion allah is god.....without people religion could not harm anyone.....

leaders use religion to control people.....every religion has been "used" at some point by someone for evil purposes......the third world uses islam....

so you agree the verse supports the "belief" that muslims must wage war or "fight" those who did not believe in allah or acknowledge islam "until" they pay the tax, willingly or unwillingly and feel themsevles subdued. it does not say to allah, but subdued. in context, dhimmis do not have the same rights as muslims, in court or otherwise, this is "subdue" not submission for that counters the islamic tenant that there is no compulsion in religion (a wholly different topic for a different thread) thus, the subdue is solely about subjugating non muslims under muslim rule. :)

[Kathianne]

Am I willing to say that? Of course not. But then, I am a Christian. I fully accept that others do not share my belief and, alternatively, believe that THEIR deity is omnipotent. That does not mean that they are not "peaceful".

Do your beliefs mean you aren't peaceful?

[Yurt]

believing that Islam will become the religion of the world does not mean that Islam is not a religion of peace. Are Christians not called upon to spread the gospel to non-believers. Is it not OUR goal to bring everyone into the fold? Does that mean that Christianity is not a religion of peace?

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


spread does not equal fight. and why is it we are discussing christianity? are you using christianity to justify the actions and beliefs of muslims?

[manu1959]

so you agree the verse supports the "belief" that muslims must wage war or "fight" those who did not believe in allah or acknowledge islam "until" they pay the tax, willingly or unwillingly and feel themsevles subdued. it does not say to allah, but subdued. in context, dhimmis do not have the same rights as muslims, in court or otherwise, this is "subdue" not submission for that counters the islamic tenant that there is no compulsion in religion (a wholly different topic for a different thread) thus, the subdue is solely about subjugating non muslims under muslim rule. :)

are there groups of muslims that are peaceful and disagree with your interpretion....

[Yurt]

are there groups of muslims that are peaceful and disagree with your interpretion....

no, their "fight" is to fully support those that are able to fight in battle. if you cannot fight in battle, your duty is to support those that do and fight jihad using other methods. hence why we hear so little from so-called moderate muslims. there is no such thing, ask any true muslim.

[manu1959]

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


spread does not equal fight. and why is it we are discussing christianity? are you using christianity to justify the actions and beliefs of muslims?

seems the intent of the passage would be to get people to follow the religion and tithe to it willingly......i am sure some one could pervert it if they wanted to.....and it seems there are those who do so......i find it difficult to belive every muslim on the planet wants me dead.....because of this passage......

[manu1959]

no, their "fight" is to fully support those that are able to fight in battle. if you cannot fight in battle, your duty is to support those that do and fight jihad using other methods. hence why we hear so little from so-called moderate muslims. there is no such thing, ask any true muslim.

so if a good muslim does nothing to oppose bad muslims they are then bad muslims.....

so if good christians do nothing to stop chritians that murder abortion doctors does that make them bad chrsitians.....

of course not......

there are evil people that do evil things in the name of their religion of choice.....and there are evil people that do evil things for no reason at all.....

to condemn a life philosophy is esentially providing an excuse for the evil people that it is somehow not their fault.....and it is their fault....they are responsible for their actions....

[Yurt]

so if a good muslim does nothing to oppose bad muslims they are then bad muslims.....

so if good christians do nothing to stop chritians that murder abortion doctors does that make them bad chrsitians.....

of course not......

there are evil people that do evil things in the name of their religion of choice.....and there are evil people that do evil things for no reason at all.....

to condemn a life philosophy is esentially providing an excuse for the evil people that it is somehow not their fault.....and it is their fault....they are responsible for their actions....

so you believe it is ok to watch someone killing another, have the power to stop that killing, but instead do nothing?

if i create a book that says you must fight all those that don't believe in yurt until they are subdued and pay my holy tax, is this ok? and, in order to get my peeps ramped up, i offer them 72 virgins if they die in battle for me.

[Yurt]

seems the intent of the passage would be to get people to follow the religion and tithe to it willingly......i am sure some one could pervert it if they wanted to.....and it seems there are those who do so......i find it difficult to belive every muslim on the planet wants me dead.....because of this passage......

if you pay the tax and are subdued, then you may live as a dhimmi. i never said they all wanted you dead, just subdued under the will of muslims as dhimmis.

i'm not sure how you can dispute the word fight....

[retiredman]

I wonder how many times the Apostle Paul uses the word "fight" in HIS epsitles. Do you really think that he means you to raise up your fist and actually "fight"?

[manu1959]

so you believe it is ok to watch someone killing another, have the power to stop that killing, but instead do nothing?

if i create a book that says you must fight all those that don't believe in yurt until they are subdued and pay my holy tax, is this ok? and, in order to get my peeps ramped up, i offer them 72 virgins if they die in battle for me.

well as a christian do you try to stop "bad christians" from murdering doctors or other stupid shit "bad christians" do.....if you do great if you don't it doesn't make you bad.....

every religion can be perverted by evil people for evil purposes......i am not willing to blame a philosophy and give a pass to the evil people......they are responsible for their actions......

[LiberalNation]

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44689


Muslims, those who believe in Islam, are everywhere in the United States. They may be your doctor or drive your taxi. They may serve you in restaurants or advise you in law. And they increasingly may be in the same foxhole, manning the same position or working on the same aircraft as you.

Islam is the second-largest religion in the world, counting more than 1.3 billion believers. Americans have the misconception that all Muslims are Arabs and that all Arabs are Muslims. In fact, less than 20 percent of the Muslims in the world are Arab, and all Arab countries have populations that believe in other religions. The nation with the world's largest Islamic population is Indonesia -- 88 percent of its 280 million people are Muslims.

In the United States, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a trend fueled mostly by immigration. There are 5 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States. They make up between 10,000 and 20,000 members of the American military.

Muslims accept vast portions of the Bible and accept many Judeo-Christian teachings. Islam sees Jesus Christ as a very holy man, but not the Son of God. But Muslims believe the Prophet Muhammad received the revealed word of God -- and that is Islam's holy book, the Koran.

Like the Bible, the Koran is open to interpretation, up to a point. "Those terrorists must be reading a completely different Koran than the rest of us," said Marine Corps Capt. Aisha Bakkar-Poe. Bakkar-Poe is from Kentucky. Her father comes from Syria and her mother from the states.

and this bit

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack/43546_chaplains20.shtml


The number of Muslims in the U.S. military is hard to estimate. Estimates vary from 4,000 to more than 12,000. Armywide, Yee knows of at least seven other posts with Muslim chaplains.

Qaseem Uqdah, a former Marine Corps gunnery sergeant who heads the American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council in Washington, D.C., counts upwards of 15,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and Coast Guard members.

The average age of U.S. Muslim troops is 21, Uqdah said. Most are married, with one child.

[LiberalNation]

Guess we're screwed with so many evil muslims in our own military ranks.

[manu1959]

and just to cut to the chase.....

....if islam by definition is evil

then all muslims must be either converted to another religion or no religion or be killed.....

in other words the must be made to submit by force......

seems that is no better than what they are being accused of....

sounds a bit like the spanish inquisitions to me.....

[Yurt]

I wonder how many times the Apostle Paul uses the word "fight" in HIS epsitles. Do you really think that he means you to raise up your fist and actually "fight"?

fight in quranic not biblical context

same sunnah (9), ayats are as follows:

13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

[Yurt]

well as a christian do you try to stop "bad christians" from murdering doctors or other stupid shit "bad christians" do.....if you do great if you don't it doesn't make you bad.....

every religion can be perverted by evil people for evil purposes......i am not willing to blame a philosophy and give a pass to the evil people......they are responsible for their actions......

so you believe it is ok to watch someone killing another, have the power to stop that killing, but instead do nothing?

so if you could stop that christian from murdering the abortionist, you wouldn't?

[Yurt]

and just to cut to the chase.....

....if islam by definition is evil

then all muslims must be either converted to another religion or no religion or be killed.....

in other words the must be made to submit by force......

seems that is no better than what they are being accused of....

sounds a bit like the spanish inquisitions to me.....

if they war against you? weren't the crusades in response to muslim expanism? seems christians and most of the world was ok while they kept to the heart of the ME, where muhammad's tribe reigned, it was only after they attempted to fight you and subdue you that christians fought back

[manu1959]

so you believe it is ok to watch someone killing another, have the power to stop that killing, but instead do nothing?

so if you could stop that christian from murdering the abortionist, you wouldn't?

if i could i would....if i couldn't does that make me an acomplice....and thus all christians bad....

there are muslims fighting in the us aram....there are muslims in the iraqi army there are muslims in all contries fighting against radical evil musilms.....if that is the case....and it is.....how is it possible that all muslims are evil if the good ones are trying to stop the evil ones.....seems to me the religion is not at fault the people are.....

[LiberalNation]

if they war against you? weren't the crusades in response to muslim expanism? seems christians and most of the world was ok while they kept to the heart of the ME, where muhammad's tribe reigned, it was only after they attempted to fight you and subdue you that christians fought back
I thought it was a lot about rescue the holy land to trump up church support and give the nobles something to do so they wouldn't fight other christains.

[Yurt]

I thought it was a lot about rescue the holy land to trump up church support and give the nobles something to do so they wouldn't fight other christains.

see the first crusade and look at the actions of muslims at that time, they were rapidly taking over christian lands and forcefully converting many to islam.

[Yurt]

if i could i would....if i couldn't does that make me an acomplice....and thus all christians bad....

there are muslims fighting in the us aram....there are muslims in the iraqi army there are muslims in all contries fighting against radical evil musilms.....if that is the case....and it is.....how is it possible that all muslims are evil if the good ones are trying to stop the evil ones.....seems to me the religion is not at fault the people are.....

i am talking about the verse, above, in the quran and how it instructs muslims regarding non muslims. what do you dispute about verse?

are there a majority of muslims who believe that moderate muslims -- those who believe the ayat is not literal -- are not muslims at all and have lost their fique?

[manu1959]

i am talking about the verse, above, in the quran and how it instructs muslims regarding non muslims. what do you dispute about verse?

are there a majority of muslims who believe that moderate muslims -- those who believe the ayat is not literal -- are not muslims at all and have lost their fique?

since moderate muslims seem to fight against radical muslims in several countries it would seem their own faith disputes your interpretaion of the verse.....and that there are good muslims fighting evil muslims....thus it would seem it is the people and not the religion which is at fault .....

or is that simply not possible and all muslims good or bad enemy or ally must be converted or exterminated.....

[Yurt]

since moderate muslims seem to fight against radical muslims in several countries it would seem their own faith disputes your interpretaion of the verse.....and that there are good muslims fighting evil muslims....thus it would seem it is the people and not the religion which is at fault .....

or is that simply not possible and all muslims good or bad enemy or ally must be converted or exterminated.....

where are muslims fighting over that verse?

[manu1959]

where are muslims fighting over that verse?

well if they agreed on that verse wouldn't they be fighting with each other against the evil christians.....instead of against each other.....

[Yurt]

well if they agreed on that verse wouldn't they be fighting with each other against the evil christians.....instead of against each other.....

sunnis are fighting shia, and it has nothing to do with that verse, it has to do with the caliphates and who is the rightful heir and so forth.

can you show me exactly where muslims are fighting over this verse? can you point to a battle between muslims that was over that verse?

[hjmick]

I thought it was a lot about rescue the holy land to trump up church support and give the nobles something to do so they wouldn't fight other christains.

The first Crusade was a response to the Seljuk Turks refusing to allow Christian pilgimages to Jerusalem. From the time of Constantine, Christians had gone on pilgrimages to the Holy Land. even though Muslims had ruled Jerusalem since 638, Christians were still allowed to visit the city. By the 11th century the situation had changed. Just as the number and frequency of pilgrimages to Jerusalem was at an all time high, the Seljuk Turks took over control of Jerusalem and prevented pilgrimages.

Pope Urban II was instrumental in launching the first crusade. He made one of the most influential speeches in the Middle Ages, calling on Christian princes in Europe to go on a crusade to rescue the Holy Land from the Turks. In the speech he combined the ideas of making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land with, along the lines of our earlier discussion, that of waging a holy war against infidels. Lucky for me, this didn't come from The Bible, but from the Pope, LOL.

One summary of the pope's speech:


"The noble race of Franks must come to the aid their fellow Christians in the East. The infidel Turks are advancing into the heart of Eastern Christendom; Christians are being oppressed and attacked; churches and holy places are being defiled. Jerusalem is groaning under the Saracen yoke. The Holy Sepulchre is in Moslem hands and has been turned into a mosque. Pilgrims are harassed and even prevented from access to the Holy Land.

"The West must march to the defense of the East. All should go, rich and poor alike. The Franks must stop their internal wars and squabbles. Let them go instead against the infidel and fight a righteous war.

"God himself will lead them, for they will be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it!"



The "threat" of Islam advancing Europe was a concern mentioned by Urban II, but I'm not convinced it was the main issue.

The last of the seven Crusades (I'm only counting Crusades to the Holy Land) ended in 1250 and the Muslims have never forgotten or forgiven.

One of my favorite figures from this time has to be Salah al-Din Yusuf bin Ayub. (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Saladin.htm)

Damn it I love history!

[Kathianne]

The first Crusade was a response to the Seljuk Turks refusing to allow Christian pilgimages to Jerusalem. From the time of Constantine, Christians had gone on pilgrimages to the Holy Land. even though Muslims had ruled Jerusalem since 638, Christians were still allowed to visit the city. By the 11th century the situation had changed. Just as the number and frequency of pilgrimages to Jerusalem was at an all time high, the Seljuk Turks took over control of Jerusalem and prevented pilgrimages.

Pope Urban II was instrumental in launching the first crusade. He made one of the most influential speeches in the Middle Ages, calling on Christian princes in Europe to go on a crusade to rescue the Holy Land from the Turks. In the speech he combined the ideas of making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land with, along the lines of our earlier discussion, that of waging a holy war against infidels. Lucky for me, this didn't come from The Bible, but from the Pope, LOL.

One summary of the pope's speech:



The "threat" of Islam advancing Europe was a concern mentioned by Urban II, but I'm not convinced it was the main issue.

The last of the seven Crusades (I'm only counting Crusades to the Holy Land) ended in 1250 and The Muslims have never forgotten or forgiven.

One of my favorite figures from this time has to be Salah al-Din Yusuf bin Ayub. (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Saladin.htm)

Damn it I love history!

Really? What is the lesson?

[hjmick]

Really? What is the lesson?

No lesson, just saying...

[manu1959]

sunnis are fighting shia, and it has nothing to do with that verse, it has to do with the caliphates and who is the rightful heir and so forth.

can you show me exactly where muslims are fighting over this verse? can you point to a battle between muslims that was over that verse?

are sunni and shia not muslim....is one side not fighting to subdue the other......is one not fighting alongside the west.....anyway if two muslim factions are fighting it would seem they are both fighting to subdue or convince each other to willingly submit and tithe....one fights on the side of the good and peaceful west and the other fights on the side of evil radical islam.....this war is waged every day in iraq and the philippines ..... once again it seems it is the people that are at fault not the religion .....

further i do not blame christianity for the evil deeds of evil men that claim to do them in the name of christianity.....

i believe that in the hands of good men the islamic faith can be one of peace....

[Yurt]

manu1959;200613]are sunni and shia not muslim....is one side not fighting to subdue the other

actually, no sunni considers shias muslim, for they have altered the religion by accepting very questionable sunnahs of the prophet.


......is one not fighting alongside the west.....

this actually only strenthens the sunni belief the shia in iraq/iran are apostates.


anyway if two muslim factions are fighting it would seem they are both fighting to subdue or convince each other to willingly submit and tithe....one fights on the side of the good and peaceful west and the other fights on the side of evil radical islam.....this war is waged every day in iraq and the philippines ..... once again it seems it is the people that are at fault not the religion .....

further i do not blame christianity for the evil deeds of evil men that claim to do them in the name of christianity.....

i believe that in the hands of good men the islamic faith can be one of peace....

so you can't show me one battle where "muslims" have argued or fought over that verse? one battle where one side say, no we are not to fight to subdue them and make them pay taxes.

[Yurt]

[9:33] He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

[manu1959]

actually, no sunni considers shias muslim, for they have altered the religion by accepting very questionable sunnahs of the prophet.

this actually only strenthens the sunni belief the shia in iraq/iran are apostates.

so you can't show me one battle where "muslims" have argued or fought over that verse? one battle where one side say, no we are not to fight to subdue them and make them pay taxes.

well i guess you win then.....islam is evil....all muslims are evil and therefore islam should be outlawed....and all muslims converted or killed....no matter if they fight with us or against us.......it is for the good of the world.....:salute:

[Yurt]

well i guess you win then.....islam is evil....all muslims are evil and therefore islam should be outlawed....and all muslims converted or killed....no matter if they fight with us or against us.......it is for the good of the world.....:salute:

i thought you don't put words into people's mouth

where's my glory? :laugh2:

[manu1959]

i thought you don't put words into people's mouth

where's my glory? :laugh2:

if they fit in there feel free......but if you believe that islam is inherently evil and can not be redeemed....then you really have no choice but to advocate a full scale re-education and or genocide of an entire culture and religion....

[Yurt]

if they fit in there feel free......but if you believe that islam is inherently evil and can not be redeemed....then you really have no choice but to advocate a full scale re-education and or genocide of an entire culture and religion....

even God never advocated exterminating every idol worshipper

only in the end, when evil must be vanquished for good

[manu1959]

even God never advocated exterminating every idol worshipper

only in the end, when evil must be vanquished for good

and from their perspective that is exactly what they are trying to do.....

[PostmodernProphet]

well as a christian do you try to stop "bad christians" from murdering doctors or other stupid shit "bad christians" do.....

????....you mean we should have stopped the three guys who were found, convicted, sentenced?......say, that sounds a lot like stopping them, doesn't it......or are you pretending there were more people involved.......

[PostmodernProphet]

willing submission to god.....

????....in response to "do we force them to tithe"?.....wow, that is a really lame response......

[glockmail]

really....i recall people being killed in spain and the new world and england that had nothing to do with muslims.... Collateral damage. I'm sure there were many fighters that lost touch with the goal or never understood the goal. But the Crusades started in order to take back what was taken and that's how they ended.

[glockmail]

do I need to go get all the gory passages from Leviticus and Numbers and Deuteronomy? What does that have to do with Christianity?

[Yurt]

and from their perspective that is exactly what they are trying to do.....

actually no, i said God would vanquish evil according to revelation. God, unlike allah, does not command us to exterminate all those who are evil. according to revelation, such would be impossible, for satan is given a thousand years to ponder evil. thus, one cannot at all compare the command of the profit to destroy those who will not become subdued and pay the tax. .... not just subdued -- but "feel" subdued.

edit:

manu, do you believe there is such a thing as evil?

[Gaffer]

Let's see. In christianity you are to forgive people for their sins. In islam you are to exact punishment (usually death). In christianity you should tell people about christ and allow them to chose. In islam you are to conquer and subdue them and force them submit. In christianity it is up to God to judge and exact punishment. In islam its up to the individuals, with punishment immediate (usually death).

Are there good muslims? Yes. They are usually westernized people making a living and going about their business. But they are not following the qoran as they are suppose too. These are the so called moderates. They are actually a minority in islam. The ones that are presently referred too as moderates are actually non-participant supporters of jihad. They don't take up arms and join in the fighting, but they supply money and support to those who do.

The only fighting going on between islamics is for consolidation of power. Governments want to keep control and want the money they get in aid by pretending to go after the radicals. It's all an act to make the west think they are doing something and taking action, when all they are doing is consolidating their power for their own future efforts.

Religion has always been a means of controlling the population. The religion of islam is taking it to the extreme. While the christian religion is based on a loving god, islam is based on a fearful god.

[Abbey Marie]

Let's see. In christianity you are to forgive people for their sins. In islam you are to exact punishment (usually death). In christianity you should tell people about christ and allow them to chose. In islam you are to conquer and subdue them and force them submit. In christianity it is up to God to judge and exact punishment. In islam its up to the individuals, with punishment immediate (usually death).

Are there good muslims? Yes. They are usually westernized people making a living and going about their business. But they are not following the qoran as they are suppose too. These are the so called moderates. They are actually a minority in islam. The ones that are presently referred too as moderates are actually non-participant supporters of jihad. They don't take up arms and join in the fighting, but they supply money and support to those who do.

The only fighting going on between islamics is for consolidation of power. Governments want to keep control and want the money they get in aid by pretending to go after the radicals. It's all an act to make the west think they are doing something and taking action, when all they are doing is consolidating their power for their own future efforts.
Religion has always been a means of controlling the population. The religion of islam is taking it to the extreme. While the christian religion is based on a loving god, islam is based on a fearful god.


All excellent points, but especially the bolded part. It explains the Muslim on Muslim in-fighting just as I understand it.

[Roadrunner]

Are Christians not called upon to spread the gospel to non-believers. Is it not OUR goal to bring everyone into the fold? Does that mean that Christianity is not a religion of peace?

There's a world of difference in the methods Christianity and Islam use in trying to bring "everyone into the fold". Christianity lets a person make the decision whether to accept or not with no earthly consequences. Islam says you will become a Muslim OR ELSE with dire consequences. The Koran teaches this. Once you're in the religion there is no forsaking it; if you want to get out, you pay with your life. Islam is more like a cult than a religion.

[Roadrunner]

so if a good muslim does nothing to oppose bad muslims they are then bad muslims.....

It means they are afraid to stand up and challenge the radicals because they know all too well what will happen to them if they do.

[Hobbit]

It means they are afraid to stand up and challenge the radicals because they know all too well what will happen to them if they do.

If you're afraid to stand up to bad [insert religion here], then you're worse than they are. No matter how wrong they are, they're at least willing to go to bat for it, while your so-called belief has been proven to amount to nothing.

[manu1959]

All excellent points, but especially the bolded part. It explains the Muslim on Muslim in-fighting just as I understand it.

explain the muslims in the us military that are killing radical muslims....

[manu1959]

well it would seem you all agree that isalm is a religion of violence and beyond redemption.....when does the mass conversion and extermination begin.....

anyone seen the movie the killing fields.....

[Yurt]

well it would seem you all agree that isalm is a religion of violence and beyond redemption.....when does the mass conversion and extermination begin.....

anyone seen the movie the killing fields.....

do you believe there is such a thing/anomaly/whatnot called "evil"

and i don't think anyone is calling for the extermination of those who are peaceful

[manu1959]

There's a world of difference in the methods Christianity and Islam use in trying to bring "everyone into the fold". Christianity lets a person make the decision whether to accept or not with no earthly consequences. Islam says you will become a Muslim OR ELSE with dire consequences. The Koran teaches this. Once you're in the religion there is no forsaking it; if you want to get out, you pay with your life. Islam is more like a cult than a religion.

there were once christians that put you to the sword if you did not accpet christ....

there are muslim "churches" not far from where i live.....there are not stacks of bodies in the surrounding neighborhoods....

seems your crys of wolf are unfounded...

[manu1959]

do you believe there is such a thing/anomaly/whatnot called "evil"

and i don't think anyone is calling for the extermination of those who are peaceful

people can do evil things.....

but if the islamic religion is fundementally evil as all yall seem to claim.....then you have no choice but to eliminate the religion and all its followers......

and if there are peaceful muslims then as i said last night it is not the religion that is at fault but the people that pervert it.....

people once perverted the christian religion....and to a lesser extent people still do....

[Yurt]

people can do evil things.....

but if the islamic religion is fundementally evil as all yall seem to claim.....then you have no choice but to eliminate the religion and all its followers......

and if there are peaceful muslims then as i said last night it is not the religion that is at fault but the people that pervert it.....

people once perverted the christian religion....and to a lesser extent people still do....

so the concept of evil in and of itself, does not exist?

[manu1959]

evil only exists if men permit it ......

[manu1959]

a brilliant quote on evil......given current events....

If Satan exists, and if he is clever at promoting Evil, then would he not agitate one section of mankind to go to war with an another - both believing God was on their side?

-Stephen Paul Lather,

[Abbey Marie]

explain the muslims in the us military that are killing radical muslims....

Without knowing each one individually, I can make an educated guess that they are the few westernized Muslims who have seen the light.

But I'm more interested in an explanation of the change in your postings. After posting with you for several years, things seem very different lately... :dunno:

[mrg666]

a brilliant quote on evil......given current events....

If Satan exists, and if he is clever at promoting Evil, then would he not agitate one section of mankind to go to war with an another - both believing God was on their side?

-Stephen Paul Lather,

id say that most religeon is good , but then we get the crazy gang in who start to distort the readings and meanings of said religeon , then all we need are some fanatic zealots (found in all religeons and walks of life ) the rest is history.
there should be a 3rd option for just the fanatics

[LiberalNation]

Without knowing each one individually, I can make an educated guess that they are the few westernized Muslims who have seen the light.
Not a really the few. If they were all mostly terrorists bent on making Islam the world religion things wouldn't be so peaceful.


In the United States, Islam is the fastest growing religion, a trend fueled mostly by immigration. There are 5 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States. They make up between 10,000 and 20,000 members of the American military.

[Gaffer]

well it would seem you all agree that isalm is a religion of violence and beyond redemption.....when does the mass conversion and extermination begin.....

anyone seen the movie the killing fields.....

islam is a religion of violence. One of its major tenets is that they lay low and pretend to be friends with the infidel until such time as they are strong enough to strike. Your looking at islam through the christian, cushy American view point. islam is the religion of conquest. Nothing more than that.

Just keep telling yourself it will never happen here.

[manu1959]

islam is a religion of violence. One of its major tenets is that they lay low and pretend to be friends with the infidel until such time as they are strong enough to strike. Your looking at islam through the christian, cushy American view point. islam is the religion of conquest. Nothing more than that.

Just keep telling yourself it will never happen here.

i am not looking at any way other than to point out if it is an inherently evil religion.....and it is beyond redeption and even the "good" muslims are bad muslims....then you have no choice but to advocate genocide.....

[manu1959]

Without knowing each one individually, I can make an educated guess that they are the few westernized Muslims who have seen the light.

But I'm more interested in an explanation of the change in your postings. After posting with you for several years, things seem very different lately... :dunno:

would you prefer i just agree with you that all muslims are evil and should be reeducated or put to death and their religion banished......

[Gaffer]

i am not looking at any way other than to point out if it is an inherently evil religion.....and it is beyond redeption and even the "good" muslims are bad muslims....then you have no choice but to advocate genocide.....

If it was up to me they would be placed in reeducation camps or killed. islam would be outlawed. But I'm not king of the world so they will go on and the islam war will go on as well. Probably for the next hundred years.

[manu1959]

If it was up to me they would be placed in reeducation camps or killed. islam would be outlawed. But I'm not king of the world so they will go on and the islam war will go on as well. Probably for the next hundred years.

what about the muslims that practice islam peacefully and fight against the radicals.....what would you do with them.....

[LiberalNation]

If it was up to me they would be placed in reeducation camps or killed. islam would be outlawed. But I'm not king of the world so they will go on and the islam war will go on as well. Probably for the next hundred years.
and people wonder how the Nazi's rose to power and how their citizens let them commit such horrors.

Same attitude, different group.

[Gaffer]

what about the muslims that practice islam peacefully and fight against the radicals.....what would you do with them.....

As I said, I would outlaw islam. They can pick another religion. Something that includes tolerance, understanding and love.

If the anti-christ was real he'd be a muslim.

[manu1959]

and people wonder how the Nazi's rose to power and how their citizens let them commit such horrors.

Same attitude, different group.

actually it is the other way round.....muslims are more like the nazis and westerners are more like the jews......you seem to forget the west is attaced in the name of allah......prior to 911 the west was not attacking radical muslims but radical muslims had been attackint the west for 3 decades at least....

but then you are 18 so you remember none of this and believe bush started the whole thing....

[glockmail]

As I said, I would outlaw islam. They can pick another religion. Something that includes tolerance, understanding and love.

If the anti-christ was real he'd be a muslim.

Isn't there an Ammendment somewhere that prevents that? :poke:

I think it would be possible to regulate it though, using the same tortured logic used to regulate guns. :laugh2:

[LiberalNation]

actually it is the other way round.....muslims are more like the nazis and westerners are more like the jews......you seem to forget the west is attaced in the name of allah......prior to 911 the west was not attacking radical muslims but radical muslims had been attackint the west for 3 decades at least....

but then you are 18 so you remember none of this and believe bush started the whole thing....

I was specifically referencing gaffers attitude, not talking about the whole west. Radical muslims are just as bad and hold the same type attitude towards their hated groups.

[manu1959]

I was specifically referencing gaffers attitude, not talking about the whole west. Radical muslims are just as bad and hold the same type attitude towards their hated groups.

so was i......

[LiberalNation]

So you think put them all in re-education camps and kill the rest isn't nazi think. Nothing defines it more.

[Kathianne]

I do not think Islam is a peaceful religion. I think there are many peaceful Muslims, I don't think they are orthodox though. More and more become radicalized, not through actions or rather reactions of the West, but the message from the leaders.

[manu1959]

So you think put them all in re-education camps and kill the rest isn't nazi think. Nothing defines it more.

what is the goal of radical islam.....

[LiberalNation]

what is the goal of radical islam.....
and I already said they were just as bad. Also nazi-like.

[Kathianne]

and I already said they were just as bad. Also nazi-like.

Umm, Manu already voted it's a 'religion of peace.'

[manu1959]

I do not think Islam is a peaceful religion. I think there are many peaceful Muslims, I don't think they are orthodox though. More and more become radicalized, not through actions or rather reactions of the West, but the message from the leaders.

see there was a time long ago the christianity was perverted by evil men and was redeemed and is now a religion of peace.....i want to believe that islam or at least the radical protion has perverted it and that with time and education the same can happen.....the alternative does mean genocide....

[glockmail]

I do not think Islam is a peaceful religion. I think there are many peaceful Muslims, I don't think they are orthodox though. More and more become radicalized, not through actions or rather reactions of the West, but the message from the leaders.
The way I see it in any group there are about 5 to 10% who are radicals. Its that way with Republicans, gays, Christians, Democrats, or Muslims. There's what, a billion Muslims? At the low end, 5%, that's 50 million radical Muslims.

[Kathianne]

see there was a time long ago the christianity was perverted by evil men and was redeemed and is now a religion of peace.....i want to believe that islam or at least the radical protion has perverted it and that with time and education the same can happen.....the alternative does mean genocide....

I understand what your saying. I'm very familiar with the history of Christianity, let's just say the Catholic Church paid a high price for the hubris, put paid with Greek and Protestant schisms.

[LiberalNation]

Umm, Manu already voted it's a 'religion of peace.'
He said radical muslim extremists, not the entire religion of Islam.

[Kathianne]

He said radical muslim extremists, not the entire religion of Islam.

Check the poll.

[manu1959]

I understand what your saying. I'm very familiar with the history of Christianity, let's just say the Catholic Church paid a high price for the hubris, put paid with Greek and Protestant schisms.

exactly and i think the christian religion did an excellent job redeeming itself from the mistakes that were made.....

i want to believe the "good" muslims and education can redeem the religion.....

i know good muslims.....they are appalled at the perversion of the religion at the hands of evil men.....

[manu1959]

He said radical muslim extremists, not the entire religion of Islam.

i voted that the religion is one of peace ....

i do not blame the religion i blame the men .....

blaming the religion is like blaming guns for murders not the men ....

[Kathianne]

exactly and i think the christian religion did an excellent job redeeming itself from the mistakes that were made.....

i want to believe the "good" muslims and education can redeem the religion.....

i know good muslims.....they are appalled at the perversion of the religion at the hands of evil men.....

I hope you were right, but think you are wrong.

[manu1959]

I hope you were right, but think you are wrong.

i guess it depends on how long people will wait....poverty, a lack of education and a lack of information is a fertile breeding ground for radical islam......the more westerized muslim countries seem to practice a peaceful form of islam....

the nazis rose to power through poverty, ignorance and alleged opression....

radical isalm is following the same path.....

funny how i can argue both sides of this with equal vigor....

[Kathianne]

i guess it depends on how long people will wait....poverty, a lack of education and a lack of information is a fertile breeding ground for radical islam......the more westerized muslim countries seem to practice a peaceful form of islam....

the nazis rose to power through poverty, ignorance and alleged opression....

radical isalm is following the same path.....

funny how i can argue both sides of this with equal vigor....
Can you document the bolded? From what I've seen not only the leadership, but the next level down is from the upper class.

Only the sucide bombers fit your profile, and even then, unevenly.

[manu1959]

Can you document the bolded? From what I've seen not only the leadership, but the next level down is from the upper class.

Only the sucide bombers fit your profile, and even then, unevenly.

sorry i wasn't clear the leaders are never poor, uneducated and oppressed......the followers are ....which is why you can get them to do what you want.....the leaders are evil the pervert the philosophy.....there are christian leaders that have perverted religion in the same way using the poor oppressed and uneducated.....

history is littered whit examples....

take nazism now it still exisits but can't get any real traction because people see it for what it is now......

[Yurt]

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


not sure what other religion commands this

[manu1959]

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


not sure what other religion commands this

we had this argument the other night dude....:laugh2:

[Yurt]

we had this argument the other night dude....:laugh2:

yeah, remember it didn't end bro :D

i don't think you told me of another religion

[manu1959]

yeah, remember it didn't end bro :D

i don't think you told me of another religion

"If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." - Matthew 18:9

are christians suposed to follow this literally.........

[Yurt]

"If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." - Matthew 18:9

are christians suposed to follow this literally.........

here we go again my friend....:cool:

prove to me the quran verse was said in the same context

the verse quoted above -- doesn't it have a "for its better than" after it?

[manu1959]

here we go again my friend....:cool:

prove to me the quran verse was said in the same context

the verse quoted above -- doesn't it have a "for its better than" after it?

prove it wasn't.....

[Yurt]

prove it wasn't.....

didn't you claim muslims were fighting over this ayat because some muslims don't believe this is true? and that you were showed that in fact no muslims are in dispute over this verse?

[manu1959]

didn't you claim muslims were fighting over this ayat because some muslims don't believe this is true? and that you were showed that in fact no muslims are in dispute over this verse?

no i claimed that islam is not fundamentally evil...

that men are and that islam could be redeemed....

you then posted this verse as proof that islam is evil.....

then i said.....if all muslims are evil because of verses like this why are there good muslims fighting against the evil ones......

[Yurt]

no i claimed that islam is not fundamentally evil...

that men are and that islam could be redeemed....

you then posted this verse as proof that islam is evil.....

then i said.....if all muslims are evil because of verses like this why are there good muslims fighting against the evil ones......

here's the thing, i think you said you don't believe in idea of evil, in and of itself... only men commit evil.

if you don't believe an idea can be evil, there is no amount of proof you will ever accept that will convince you an idea is evil. the very notion of evil is cerebral, in that evil necessarily requires some kind of moral certantity or guidepost if you will. you are probably trying to steer this down to -- who gets to say what is evil and what is not. given the notion is somewhat abstract due to the moral foundation, we of course will come to the conclusion you seek -- that is, we don't get to decide.

arguably, even satan considers himself "not evil." if you live with moral ambiguity, then it is logical to say that for you, evil does not have a definition, and as such, no religion or ideal can be evil.

i guess i just disagree with satan.

[manu1959]

here's the thing, i think you said you don't believe in idea of evil, in and of itself... only men commit evil.

if you don't believe an idea can be evil, there is no amount of proof you will ever accept that will convince you an idea is evil. the very notion of evil is cerebral, in that evil necessarily requires some kind of moral certantity or guidepost if you will. you are probably trying to steer this down to -- who gets to say what is evil and what is not. given the notion is somewhat abstract due to the moral foundation, we of course will come to the conclusion you seek -- that is, we don't get to decide.

arguably, even satan considers himself "not evil." if you live with moral ambiguity, then it is logical to say that for you, evil does not have a definition, and as such, no religion or ideal can be evil.

i guess i just disagree with satan.

if there are no men there is no evil....ideas are created by men.....evil men are evil .... i do not believe in moral relativisim....and the devil knows he is evil and he is good at it.....

my point really is do not blame islam...blame the men....it is not islam's fault men are evil it is the fault of those that are evil.....we do not need to eliminate islam we need to eliminate the evil men....for there are good people that follow islam.....

[Yurt]

if there are no men there is no evil....ideas are created by men.....evil men are evil .... i do not believe in moral relativisim....and the devil knows he is evil and he is good at it.....

my point really is do not blame islam...blame the men....it is not islam's fault men are evil it is the fault of those that are evil.....we do not need to eliminate islam we need to eliminate the evil men....for there are good people that follow islam.....

did the devil tell you that?

let's say the bible is true for the moment -- was there evil/sin before man was created?

[manu1959]

did the devil tell you that?

let's say the bible is true for the moment -- was there evil/sin before man was created?

i don't believe in the devil.....

the bible is true....in the context that i was taught which is parables for how to lead a good life and the teachings of a good man and his followers....

a friend of mine is a pastor we discuss this endlessly.....

as for evil....there have always been evil men and evil deeds ..... it did not take the invention of "sin" to define the evil deeds of men .....

but to more directly put before god created the universe was there evil and sin.....i say no ....neither existed until man was created and fell from grace.....

god did not create evil and sin....man did....

[Yurt]

manu1959;201907]i don't believe in the devil.....

the bible is true....in the context that i was taught which is parables for how to lead a good life and the teachings of a good man and his followers....

a friend of mine is a pastor we discuss this endlessly.....

as for evil....there have always been evil men and evil deeds ..... it did not take the invention of "sin" to define the evil deeds of men .....

but to more directly put before god created the universe was there evil and sin.....i say no ....neither existed until man was created and fell from grace.....

god did not create evil and sin....man did....[/QUOTE]


i know you don't, that is why i said "for the moment" you are right, these discussions will not end until the world ends.

according to the "book of parables," isn't true that lucifer was the first to fall from grace?

[manu1959]

manu1959;201907]i don't believe in the devil.....

the bible is true....in the context that i was taught which is parables for how to lead a good life and the teachings of a good man and his followers....

a friend of mine is a pastor we discuss this endlessly.....

as for evil....there have always been evil men and evil deeds ..... it did not take the invention of "sin" to define the evil deeds of men .....

but to more directly put before god created the universe was there evil and sin.....i say no ....neither existed until man was created and fell from grace.....

god did not create evil and sin....man did....


i know you don't, that is why i said "for the moment" you are right, these discussions will not end until the world ends.

according to the "book of parables," isn't true that lucifer was the first to fall from grace?[/QUOTE]

on your first statement ... you don't know that for a fact.....

on your second......i guess it depends which version of the story you follow.....did he fall before or after adam and eve existed.....was for the coup attempt....or the attempt to seduce eve or was it because he would not bow down to adam.....

but you ask because you want to claim that the devil is evil and was the cause of adam and eves fall.....i say no...adam and eve were the cause of their fall....they had a choice....they chose poorly....

[manu1959]

here is a list of countries that a 50% or more muslim....

if islam is evil .... should all these countries be invaded and all muslims exterminated....

some of these countries are our allies......

Afghanistan
Algeria
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Burkina Faso
Brunei
Chad
Comoros
Côte d'Ivoire
Djibouti
Eritrea
Egypt
Gambia
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Kazakhstan
Kosovo
Kyrgyzstan
Lebanon
Libya
Maldives
Malaysia
Mali
Mauritania
Morocco
Niger
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Tajikistan
Turkey
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
United Arab Emirates
Yemen

[Yurt]

i know you don't, that is why i said "for the moment" you are right, these discussions will not end until the world ends.

according to the "book of parables," isn't true that lucifer was the first to fall from grace?


on your first statement ... you don't know that for a fact.....

on your second......i guess it depends which version of the story you follow.....did he fall before or after adam and eve existed.....was for the coup attempt....or the attempt to seduce eve or was it because he would not bow down to adam.....

but you ask because you want to claim that the devil is evil and was the cause of adam and eves fall.....i say no...adam and eve were the cause of their fall....they had a choice....they chose poorly....[/QUOTE]
just going off of what you said, you said you don't believe in the devil :dunno:

not saying adam and eve weren't faulty, only that according to the bible, they were not the first to know evil, evil necessarily had to exist for God to say, if you eat of the tree of life you will know evil. further, lucifer enticed them, hence, he must have been evil first because he purposefully went against God.

[Yurt]

here is a list of countries that a 50% or more muslim....

if islam is evil .... should all these countries be invaded and all muslims exterminated....

some of these countries are our allies......



again, even God has never called for the extermination of "all" those who follow an evil religion "all" the time. when the end comes, then it will be taken care of. He has at times deemed it necessary to wipe out all evil and He let us know....flood, ancient battles....

[TheSage]

the religion yes.....

some of the people that are practicing it now....

no.....

they are living in the 1st century and still fighting the crusades....

But manu, the koran says to go out and kill non-believers and subjugate them to islam. Is that peaceful?

Are you saying islam is peaceful so no will will examine your zionist noahide theocracy faith too closely?

[Gaffer]

Isn't there an Ammendment somewhere that prevents that? :poke:

I think it would be possible to regulate it though, using the same tortured logic used to regulate guns. :laugh2:

Yeah they are protected by the Constitution. That's why I said "if I were King of the world."

[glockmail]

Yeah they are protected by the Constitution. That's why I said "if I were King of the world."
Seriously though if liberals can regulate guns than conservatives should be able to regulate something much more deadly: Islam.