The Democrats' dilemma

[stephanie]

:eek::popcorn:

John Diaz

Saturday, February 9, 2008

It doesn't seem fair that the Democratic nomination might be decided by the well-connected, unelected "superdelegates," or by the primaries in Florida and Michigan that were not supposed to count.

Then again, the rules to select party nominees are rarely fair and never permanent, even within an election cycle. The parties set them - and change them - to suit the objectives of the people in power.

Just ask Willie Brown, who chaired the 271-member California delegation that was pledged to George McGovern in 1972. The stop-McGovern forces tried to unseat 151 of McGovern's California delegates, arguing that the state's winner-take-call formula was undemocratic.

Brown's fiery speech made a powerful case against changing the rules after McGovern finished first with 43.5 percent of the vote. "Give me back my delegation!" thundered the 38-year-old state Assemblyman from San Francisco.

McGovern won the floor fight, was nominated on the first ballot - and Democrats never again allowed a winner-take-all primary. The party now apportions delegates in a way that tempers the effect of big victories in large states, such as Sen. Hillary Clinton's Super Tuesday triumphs in California and New York.

The orgins of the modern "superdelegate" also can be traced to 1972. McGovern's insurgent campaign produced what Brown described as "rag tag" legions of activists that were dedicated and demographically diverse, but devoid of certain party stalwarts whose support would be critical to winning the general election.

"I remember Frank Mankiewicz (McGovern's national campaign chief) calling me and pleading to let (Sen.) John Tunney get seated," Brown said in an interview last week. Tunney got his seat. Other delegation chairs were receiving similar calls. The concept of the "superdelegate" was born and has continued to grow to the point that the 796 superdelegates (elected officials, political pros, party activists) will hold about 20 percent of the votes at the 2008 Denver convention.

The chaos at the 1972 convention in Miami, which left McGovern giving his acceptance speech at 3 a.m., was tame in comparison with the disaster of the Democrats' 1968 Chicago convention, with its violence in the streets and vitriol inside the hall. The images of a fractured, out-of-control party helped sink Hubert Humphrey in 1968 and McGovern in 1972.

Tom Hayden, who was tried as one of the "Chicago Seven" for his role in mobilizing the anti-war demonstrations, has since attended a half-dozen conventions as a delegate. At 68, Hayden remains active in causes such as ending the war in Iraq and closing sweatshops. But the former state legislator also recognizes the practical value of a drama-free convention - and, for him, the prospect of a "dead-even outcome" going into Denver is "worth worrying about."

Hayden, who has endorsed Barack Obama, sees a generational clash developing. It's more civil and less riven by the ideological divisions that defined the battles of 1968, but it is no less perilous for a Democratic Party that yearns to reclaim the White House.

Hayden worries that the "unbelievable volunteer energy" that Obama has attracted could be deflated if he is defeated in what is perceived as an establishment power play, such as the seating of delegates from the Florida and Michigan primaries that Clinton swept, but were not supposed to count. Some Obama supporters could become disengaged in the election.

read the rest..
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/09/ED0HUUIA1.DTL&type=politics

[Kathianne]

Yep between the superdelegates and the MI & FL delegates not being counted, the Dems are set for a major fight. Good ole' Howard Dean is taking a bad situation he created and making it worse. :laugh2: If they give the delegates to Hillary, the Obama folks are going to be very pissed, suicidal voting a possibility. If they continue their punishment, well Hillary's people are not going to be happy.

Now Dean is considering trying to set us caucus systems in both states, before the Convention. :laugh2:

http://www.julescrittenden.com/2008/02/09/petard-hoistmanship/

Seems a FL paper is laying the mess right at Dean's feet:

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/08/Opinion/Cleaning_up_Dean_s_bi.shtml

[stephanie]

Yep between the superdelegates and the MI & FL delegates not being counted, the Dems are set for a major fight. Good ole' Howard Dean is taking a bad situation he created and making it worse. :laugh2: If they give the delegates to Hillary, the Obama folks are going to be very pissed, suicidal voting a possibility. If they continue their punishment, well Hillary's people are not going to be happy.

Now Dean is considering trying to set us caucus systems in both states, before the Convention. :laugh2:

http://www.julescrittenden.com/2008/02/09/petard-hoistmanship/

I still can't believe the Democrat party would disinfranchise all them little people voters, who they care so much about....s/o:poke:

[Psychoblues]

I can understand your disbelief, staphy.



I still can't believe the Democrat party would disinfranchise all them little people voters, who they care so much about....s/o:poke:

Your cynicism is well founded. The Deomoctatic Party has no need to disenfrachise voters. In fact, we encourage more voters. We fought for years for non-property owners, women, minorities, etc. for the right to vote much to the consternation of the Republicans, why would we now want to disenfranchise anyone? Does your allegation have any foundation? I'd love to stand on it?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!?

[stephanie]

I can understand your disbelief, staphy.




Your cynicism is well founded. The Deomoctatic Party has no need to disenfrachise voters. In fact, we encourage more voters. We fought for years for non-property owners, women, minorities, etc. for the right to vote much to the consternation of the Republicans, why would we now want to disenfranchise anyone? Does your allegation have any foundation? I'd love to stand on it?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!?

Hey...read and weep my dear...this article was out of your own liberal paper.....I didn't make up the rules for the Democrat party..It would be nice though...if the little people saw what was REALLY HAPPENING...don't ya think...:poke:

[Classact]

Hey...read and weep my dear...this article was out of your own liberal paper.....I didn't make up the rules for the Democrat party..It would be nice though...if the little people saw what was REALLY HAPPENING...don't ya think...:poke:Dead man/woman walking or a losing Democratic Party in November. More than likely over half of the DP will be pissed over the rules and the application of the rules and will not organize or turn out to vote.

[stephanie]

Dead man/woman walking or a losing Democratic Party in November. More than likely over half of the DP will be pissed over the rules and the application of the rules and will not organize or turn out to vote.


Well see if we hear from any of the Democrats on the board about this...

This is........taking away their votes...plain and simple...

[Psychoblues]

Wayyyyyyyyy more than half the DP community stays pissed at anything the Democrats do, Ca. How do you propose to educate them?



Dead man/woman walking or a losing Democratic Party in November. More than likely over half of the DP will be pissed over the rules and the application of the rules and will not organize or turn out to vote.

Just kidding, Ca, I know you'd rather fight in more enlightened environment!!!!

[Classact]

Wayyyyyyyyy more than half the DP community stays pissed at anything the Democrats do, Ca. How do you propose to educate them?




Just kidding, Ca, I know you'd rather fight in more enlightened environment!!!!Regardless, if Obama has the popular vote, which he will and there are still states that haven't even voted and the super delegates pick Clinton what do you think will happen? Do you really think Obama would accept VP and be a happy "boy"?

[Psychoblues]

'Zat what you think? The "boy" is not what you think at all. Just how do you dream all that shit up?



Regardless, if Obama has the popular vote, which he will and there are still states that haven't even voted and the super delegates pick Clinton what do you think will happen? Do you really think Obama would accept VP and be a happy "boy"?

Do you think all folk are as ignorant, uneducated and prejudiced as you? For a Classact you fail miserably. Good luck on your next tour. What? You haven't had a first tour?

[Classact]

'Zat what you think? The "boy" is not what you think at all. Just how do you dream all that shit up?




Do you think all folk are as ignorant, uneducated and prejudiced as you? For a Classact you fail miserably. Good luck on your next tour. What? You haven't had a first tour?It is apparent that I have the high ground here since I'm getting ready for breakfast and you are up late stumbling around drunk or high...

I'm not prejudiced, damn I'm married to a Puerto Rican and have black folks in my family. It isn't me that has a problem with Obama it is the white Democratic Super delegates... I saw one on TV say he is voting for Hillary regardless of how many votes Obama gets and it seems he in in the majority of thought with the super delegates... it is the SD's that will make Obama a boy and not me.

[Psychoblues]

So,,,,,,,,,that "boy" comment wasn't racially influenced?




It is apparent that I have the high ground here since I'm getting ready for breakfast and you are up late stumbling around drunk or high...

I'm not prejudiced, damn I'm married to a Puerto Rican and have black folks in my family. It isn't me that has a problem with Obama it is the white Democratic Super delegates... I saw one on TV say he is voting for Hillary regardless of how many votes Obama gets and it seems he in in the majority of thought with the super delegates... it is the SD's that will make Obama a boy and not me.

Look here, boy, who do you think you are fuckin' with? Ask anyone here. I didn't come here to trifle with simpletons like yourself and I don't give one flip about your multiracial background, boy. Excuses like yours are fairly commonplace now, or didn't you know?

[stephanie]

So,,,,,,,,,that "boy" comment wasn't racially influenced?





Look here, boy, who do you think you are fuckin' with? Ask anyone here. I didn't come here to trifle with simpletons like yourself and I don't give one flip about your multiracial background, boy. Excuses like yours are fairly commonplace now, or didn't you know?

Geeeesh...be nice...:slap:

[Classact]

So,,,,,,,,,that "boy" comment wasn't racially influenced?





Look here, boy, who do you think you are fuckin' with? Ask anyone here. I didn't come here to trifle with simpletons like yourself and I don't give one flip about your multiracial background, boy. Excuses like yours are fairly commonplace now, or didn't you know?You seem to be in Northern Africa in the state of De Nile... It started early in the election run of what could and could not be said about a black candidate... can't say for a black guy he sure is articulate? There are rules and the facts of life is a lot of folks vote for him not because he is half black and a lot of folks vote for Hillary because she is a she...

Can we agree that a disproportionate percentage of blacks are voting for Obama simply because he is black and that a disproportionate percentage of women are voting for Hillary just because she is a woman? Can we agree that a disproportionate percentage of the Democratic Super Delegates are white?

Can we agree that many women and blacks will be pissed off if they don't get their way? Can we agree illegal Mexicans are voting for Hillary?

Can we agree that the Democratic Party was united when Al Gore got the popular vote against President Bush? Can we agree that the majority of Democrats were and are pissed at the Supreme Court for deciding on behalf of Bush? Can we not agree that if the Super Delegates do the same to Obama that the SC did to Al many in the Democratic Party will not be forgiving?

Do you disagree?

[Psychoblues]

Sure, we can agree on all that shit, Ca. Can we also not agree that boys like you are irrelavant, insignificant and generally unimportant in the general idea of the Woldwide War On Terror? You seem to promote terror?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


You seem to be in Northern Africa in the state of De Nile... It started early in the election run of what could and could not be said about a black candidate... can't say for a black guy he sure is articulate? There are rules and the facts of life is a lot of folks vote for him not because he is half black and a lot of folks vote for Hillary because she is a she...

Can we agree that a disproportionate percentage of blacks are voting for Obama simply because he is black and that a disproportionate percentage of women are voting for Hillary just because she is a woman? Can we agree that a disproportionate percentage of the Democratic Super Delegates are white?

Can we agree that many women and blacks will be pissed off if they don't get their way? Can we agree illegal Mexicans are voting for Hillary?

Can we agree that the Democratic Party was united when Al Gore got the popular vote against President Bush? Can we agree that the majority of Democrats were and are pissed at the Supreme Court for deciding on behalf of Bush? Can we not agree that if the Super Delegates do the same to Obama that the SC did to Al many in the Democratic Party will not be forgiving?

Do you disagree?

Silly you.

[Classact]

Sure, we can agree on all that shit, Ca. Can we also not agree that boys like you are irrelavant, insignificant and generally unimportant in the general idea of the Woldwide War On Terror? You seem to promote terror?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!



Silly you.Calm down my friend!


Would you blame black Americans for voting for Cynthia http://www.runcynthiarun.org/ if the Super Delegates select Clinton?

[red states rule]

Liberal op-ed writer Frank Rich is writing how the Dems are heading for a civil war

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10rich.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin