Born at 22 Weeks...

[darin]

This lump of Flesh...this "Tissue" ....KILL IT! Remove it from the mother's body by piercing it's skull and removing the brain tissue! Break apart the tiny Body; it's only crime? Living. Growing. "Mom just isn't in a PLACE in her LIFE where she can CARE for a child!" "Why would you want to bring another child up in POVERTY!??" KILL IT!! It's a WOMAN'S CHOICE, NOT MURDER!!

You sick bastards...you folk who scream and stomp because you want murder on demand...

http://www.imagehostingsite.com/images/hnynjqztry4lfnjg2rjh.jpg

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/19/D8ND737G0.html

[Nienna]

I'm wondering why they had to do a c-section so early?

[Hagbard Celine]

This lump of Flesh...this "Tissue" ....KILL IT! Remove it from the mother's body by piercing it's skull and removing the brain tissue! Break apart the tiny Body; it's only crime? Living. Growing. "Mom just isn't in a PLACE in her LIFE where she can CARE for a child!" "Why would you want to bring another child up in POVERTY!??" KILL IT!! It's a WOMAN'S CHOICE, NOT MURDER!!

You sick bastards...you folk who scream and stomp because you want murder on demand...

http://www.imagehostingsite.com/images/hnynjqztry4lfnjg2rjh.jpg

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/19/D8ND737G0.html

If the mother doesn't want it, she should be able to get rid of it. If you're going to force the mother to have it, are you going to take care of it when it gets here? I'm certainly not going to take care of someone else's unwanted progeny, so it must be up to you since you're fighting so fervently for the "right to life." It'd better be you because odds are that the mother is just going to leave it in a dumpster behind the hospital since she didn't want it to begin with.

You're soooooo righteous because you think you're "fighting" for the unborn :rolleyes: Yeah right. But once they get here they're on their own right?

[Nienna]

If the mother doesn't want it, she should be able to get rid of it. If you're going to force the mother to have it, are you going to take care of it when it gets here? Because odds are that the mother is just going to leave it in a dumpster behind the hospital since she didn't want it to begin with.

You're soooooo righteous because you think you're "fighting" for the unborn :rolleyes: Yeah right. But once they get here they're on their own right?

lots and lots of people waiting to adopt.

[darin]

If the mother doesn't want it, she should be able to get rid of it. If you're going to force the mother to have it, are you going to take care of it when it gets here? Because odds are that the mother is just going to leave it in a dumpster behind the hospital since she didn't want it to begin with.

You're soooooo righteous because you think you're "fighting" for the unborn :rolleyes: Yeah right. But once they get here they're on their own right?


By your "logic" Mothers should have NO time-limit on when they can decide to kill their children.

I'm fighting for innocents. And I'm not really fighting - I'm lamenting about one of our society's greatest failures. The further we move away from Truth - the further from GOD - the more we'll see and accept and praise this kind of thing; Killing our unborn.

Dude - you are SO full of HATE. WHY do you hate these babies? Seriously? Throughout history mankind has always placed protections upon it's women and children. Now, people of your viewpoint are reversing that. Why? WHY? There is NO GOOD reason to kill these thousands of babies. No good reason. If a woman doesn't want a baby, she should absolutely NEVER have sex. Easy. If a woman DOES have sex, and gets pregnant, she should (excuse the gender-bias) MAN-UP and take responsibility. It's NOT taking responsibility to get an abortion - it's taking a mulligan. Except there are NO mulligans with regard to HUMAN LIFE. INNOCENT human life at that.


It's nauseating. It's frustrating. I try to be patient and trusting, knowing God has foretold these times. I know it'll get even worse. I hang on as I see society spinning downward out of control, yet going according to how God has described.

:(

[Hagbard Celine]

lots and lots of people waiting to adopt.

Yeah right, that's why foster housing is so under-strained. :rolleyes: Because the hordes of wonderful adoptive parents are waiting in the wings to swoop in and give all the unwanted babies a home.

I vote for more safe-sex education for adolescents, loosening adoption guidelines and giving gays the right to marry and adopt and a ban on partial birth abortion--cut 'em off after the end of the second trimester.

Screw this all or nothing ban all abortion, lock out the gays and abstinence-only education bullsh*t.

[darin]

Yeah right, that's why foster housing is so under-strained. :rolleyes: Because the hordes of wonderful adoptive parents are waiting in the wings to swoop in and give all the unwanted babies a home.

Fix the adoption process. Not everybody can afford the thousands and thousands of dollars required.



I vote for more safe-sex education for adolescents,

No such animal, brother.



Screw this all or nothing ban all abortion, lock out the gays and abstinence-only education bullsh*t.

But those things would SAVE society. :)

[Hagbard Celine]

By your "logic" Mothers should have NO time-limit on when they can decide to kill their children.

I'm fighting for innocents. And I'm not really fighting - I'm lamenting about one of our society's greatest failures. The further we move away from Truth - the further from GOD - the more we'll see and accept and praise this kind of thing; Killing our unborn.

Dude - you are SO full of HATE. WHY do you hate these babies? Seriously? Throughout history mankind has always placed protections upon it's women and children. Now, people of your viewpoint are reversing that. Why? WHY? There is NO GOOD reason to kill these thousands of babies. No good reason. If a woman doesn't want a baby, she should absolutely NEVER have sex. Easy. If a woman DOES have sex, and gets pregnant, she should (excuse the gender-bias) MAN-UP and take responsibility. It's NOT taking responsibility to get an abortion - it's taking a mulligan. Except there are NO mulligans with regard to HUMAN LIFE. INNOCENT human life at that.


It's nauseating. It's frustrating. I try to be patient and trusting, knowing God has foretold these times. I know it'll get even worse. I hang on as I see society spinning downward out of control, yet going according to how God has described.

:(

Dude, the "times" are better for everyone (except maybe those living in Iraq) than they ever have been. Society is more civilized and healthier than ever before in history--especially in western society. So drop the "end is near" act and use your brain for a moment.

If you had it your way, every pregnancy regardless of circumstance would be forced into delivery. Not only would this undermine a woman's right to make her own decisions regarding probably the biggest thing that would ever happen to her and to her body, it would flood the country with unwanted children and the populace would shoulder the burden. Sure, the healthiest ones would be cherry-picked out of the crowd by adoptive parents, but the rest, the majority, the unlucky ones would be stuffed into boarding houses and foster families or with parents who didn't want them to begin with, most of which live below the poverty line, where they will become victims of drug abuse, physical and sexual abuse and will grow up to be criminals and more poor people who will scrimp by living like rats at the bottom rung of society with no way out because the conservatives who argued for their lives before they were born refuse to support social-net programs to help them live their lives when they are actually here.

This doesn't even take into account the women and girls who would try to abort their pregnancies by themselves with coat hangers and getting their boyfriends to punch them in the stomach, which by the way already happens. It's in the public interest to have abortion available to women who want it. Banning it is not the answer, no matter how glimmery-eyed you get thinking about the babies who get aborted. I agree with you and I've said it all along for the past three years or however long I've been posting with you. I don't hate babies no matter how much you want it to be true and I think it's disgusting to suck-out a baby's brain matter, but women have to be able to make this decision about their own futures.

[Hagbard Celine]

No such animal, brother.

Wow Sherlock! I wonder why teen pregnancy levels stay high! It's probably because adults place a taboo on the subject, instill shame in their kids by telling them they'll anger "God" if they have sex before marriage, tell them not to touch the forbidden fruit even though every hormone and fiber in their body is telling them TO touch the forbidden fruit and give them no condoms or birth control because that would "encourage" them to have sex--even though as was previously stated, they are going to do it anyway.

[darin]

Wow Sherlock! I wonder why teen pregnancy levels stay high!

No - it's because kids keep having sex.




It's probably because adults place a taboo on the subject, instill shame in their kids by telling them they'll anger "God" if they have sex before marriage,


Here's the crazy part - Not having sex outside of marriage HELPS people. It makes them measurably BETTER human beings. Your attitude is symptomatic of somebody who doesnt understand truth. You think 'your' (by 'your' I mean 'the way of man') is better than "God's" way. It does not compute.

[Hagbard Celine]

No - it's because kids keep having sex.

Here's the crazy part - Not having sex outside of marriage HELPS people. It makes them measurably BETTER human beings. Your attitude is symptomatic of somebody who doesnt understand truth. You think 'your' (by 'your' I mean 'the way of man') is better than "God's" way. It does not compute.

Well, in your view, God created human beings. If he did, then God made teenagers horny by pumping their bodies full of sex hormones. Why would God pump teenagers (whose decision-making brain centers aren't even fully developed) full of sex hormones if he didn't expect them to have sex? Doesn't it fall to the adults to protect their kids until they are old enough to make good decisions by giving them the tools to do something they are going to do anyway safely?

[Hagbard Celine]

Here's the crazy part - Not having sex outside of marriage HELPS people. It makes them measurably BETTER human beings. Your attitude is symptomatic of somebody who doesnt understand truth. You think 'your' (by 'your' I mean 'the way of man') is better than "God's" way. It does not compute.

IMO the crazy part is that you think kids aren't going to have sex just because you tell them not to defying thousands of years of inborn, human instinct. THAT'S crazy. :boobies:

[darin]

IMO the crazy part is that you think kids aren't going to have sex just because you tell them not to defying thousands of years of inborn, human instinct. THAT'S crazy. :boobies:

Why would you say I think that?

THAT's the crazy part. You are seriously reaching here, brother.

[darin]

Why would God pump teenagers (whose decision-making brain centers aren't even fully developed) full of sex hormones if he didn't expect them to have sex?

People used to get married in their teenage years. In fact, my first wife did. :) Your logic is flawed, though. That statement is like saying "God gave us hand which, as adults, fit nicely around the throats of children. I mean, Why did God give us hands to choke a kid, if he didn't expect us to USE Them? Right??"

:-/

[Hagbard Celine]

Why would you say I think that?

THAT's the crazy part. You are seriously reaching here, brother.

So you're saying you don't think abstinence-only education works?

[darin]

So you're saying you don't think abstinence-only education works?

What the hell? lmao...there you go again! I'll try it - gimme a second!

[darin]

IMO the crazy part is that you think kids aren't going to have sex just because you tell them not to defying thousands of years of inborn, human instinct. THAT'S crazy. :boobies:

So you're saying the Pope is the anti-christ and society should ONLY be one big orgy? You're also saying people should have sex with WHOMEVER they want - willing or not?



;)

[Hagbard Celine]

People used to get married in their teenage years. In fact, my first wife did. :)

Right, but now women have rights and some choose to pursue careers instead of becoming brood mares in their twenties. Women's lib gave society a new twist. So the point is that as society progresses, so should the way it treats sex as with everything else.

[Hagbard Celine]

So you're saying the Pope is the anti-christ and society should ONLY be one big orgy? You're also saying people should have sex with WHOMEVER they want - willing or not?



;)

Now who's reaching? I love this debate. I tried to give you rep points just for the hell of it but I have to spread it around first.

[krisy]

Wow Sherlock! I wonder why teen pregnancy levels stay high! It's probably because adults place a taboo on the subject, instill shame in their kids by telling them they'll anger "God" if they have sex before marriage, tell them not to touch the forbidden fruit even though every hormone and fiber in their body is telling them TO touch the forbidden fruit and give them no condoms or birth control because that would "encourage" them to have sex--even though as was previously stated, they are going to do it anyway.

There are lots of things kids want to do that aren't right. Is it o.k. to let them run amuck just because you think they will do it anyway? Kids are capable of having self control. It needs to instilled in them very early. Your not doing your job if you don't teach them some.

Also,if a woman doesn't want a child,she too can practice some self control and abstain,or at the very least use a reliable form of birth control. Grown women should practice some self control....right? We all know how to not get pregnant

[Hagbard Celine]

There are lots of things kids want to do that aren't right. Is it o.k. to let them run amuck just because you think they will do it anyway? Kids are capable of having self control. It needs to instilled in them very early. Your not doing your job if you don't teach them some.

Also,if a woman doesn't want a child,she too can practice some self control and abstain,or at the very least use a reliable form of birth control. Grown women should practice some self control....right? We all know how to not get pregnant

White middle-class kids whose parents actively participate in their lives aren't the subject of this debate. The majority of the kids who actually get pregnant are poor, non-white and inner-city. Do you really think that these kids' parents instilled these values in them? If their parents even had these values to begin with, they wouldn't be living on the bottom rung to begin with!

And if you read, we're not talking about grown women anymore. Obviously a grown woman should make put herself on birth control if she knows she's going to be sexing it up. That's beside the point.

Jesus. You people act like I'm incapable of rational thought. I've never said kids SHOULD run amok and have orgies. Let me lay it out. Teach teenagers to use condoms and birth control while also telling them that abstinence is the best contraception and they won't have as many kids. It's that simple.

Horny teenagers are GOING to have sex. Not all teens are pasty-faced youth-group attendants whose parents instilled Beaver Cleaver morals in them. Many are latch-key kids whose parents see them an hour a day and when susie the big-titted girl next door comes over to play Nintendo in the afternoon it's literally hard to think about that abstinence-only poster with Uncle Sam on it in the school cafeteria. Sorry about that mental image--I'll keep my personal anecdotes to myself from now on :laugh:

Kids are also "capable" of understanding that sex isn't something to be feared or tabooed. And if they are capable of self-control as you said, why are there so many teenage pregancies every year? Do you think some of them could have been avoided if the kids had been using contraceptives?

[darin]

Now who's reaching? I love this debate. I tried to give you rep points just for the hell of it but I have to spread it around first.

I was giving you an example of what you're doing to what I write.

[krisy]

White middle-class kids whose parents actively participate in their lives aren't the subject of this debate. The majority of the kids who actually get pregnant are poor, non-white and inner-city. Do you really think that these kids' parents instilled these values in them? If their parents even had these values to begin with, they wouldn't be living on the bottom rung to begin with!

And if you read, we're not talking about grown women anymore. Obviously a grown woman should make put herself on birth control if she knows she's going to be sexing it up. That's beside the point.

Jesus. You people act like I'm incapable of rational thought. I've never said kids SHOULD run amok and have orgies. Let me lay it out. Teach teenagers to use condoms and birth control while also telling them that abstinence is the best contraception and they won't have as many kids. It's that simple.

Horny teenagers are GOING to have sex. Not all teens are pasty-faced youth-group attendants whose parents instilled Beaver Cleaver morals in them. Many are latch-key kids whose parents see them an hour a day and when susie the big-titted girl next door comes over to play Nintendo in the afternoon it's literally hard to think about that abstinence-only poster with Uncle Sam on it in the school cafeteria. Sorry about that mental image--I'll keep my personal anecdotes to myself from now on :laugh:

I agree that some horny teenagers will have sex. Sex they are not emotionally ready for. If you hand them a condom,imo,your just telling them it's o.k. to do something that really is wrong. It's advocating something they are not ready for. Who says they will use that condom after you have given it to them,pretty much condoning sex? Givng them condoms and teaching birth control,but then teaching them abstinence sends a mixed message .

[darin]

Right, but now women have rights and some choose to pursue careers instead of becoming brood mares in their twenties. Women's lib gave society a new twist. So the point is that as society progresses, so should the way it treats sex as with everything else.

Women still had rights. Women still have the right to marry at age 16? or so? Women and Men putting off families is NOT something to brag about, or be proud of. A career is never as important as family. Ever.

[Hagbard Celine]

I agree that some horny teenagers will have sex. Sex they are not emotionally ready for. If you hand them a condom,imo,your just telling them it's o.k. to do something that really is wrong. It's advocating something they are not ready for. Who says they will use that condom after you have given it to them,pretty much condoning sex? Givng them condoms and teaching birth control,but then teaching them abstinence sends a mixed message .

Why can't you tell them they shouldn't have sex until they are old enough but still give them condom knowledge? I'd say 80 percent of teenagers lose their virginity before they are 19. Maybe even more than that and probably 90 percent of that 80 percent lose the "V" card before they are 17. Wouldn't it behoove society to teach teens about contraceptives and make them available?

[Hagbard Celine]

Women still had rights. Women still have the right to marry at age 16? or so? Women and Men putting off families is NOT something to brag about, or be proud of. A career is never as important as family. Ever.

I wasn't bragging or expressing pride. I'm stating the truth. More women now than ever before pursue careers instead of motherhood. It's a fact.

[Birdzeye]

I agree that some horny teenagers will have sex. Sex they are not emotionally ready for. If you hand them a condom,imo,your just telling them it's o.k. to do something that really is wrong. It's advocating something they are not ready for. Who says they will use that condom after you have given it to them,pretty much condoning sex? Givng them condoms and teaching birth control,but then teaching them abstinence sends a mixed message .

Well, I was never handed a condom, but when I went to a Catholic college, I learned how different methods of contraception worked in my introductory biology class. The professor went to great pains to remind us that the Vatican did not approve of these other methods.

The kids who were gonna screw screwed and the kids who weren't didn't, in spite of that knowledge.

[Hagbard Celine]

Well, I was never handed a condom, but when I went to a Catholic college, I learned how different methods of contraception worked in my introductory biology class. The professor went to great pains to remind us that the Vatican did not approve of these other methods.

The kids who were gonna screw screwed and the kids who weren't didn't, in spite of that knowledge.

That's my point. The kids who are gonna screw do. And the ones who aren't going to don't. Atleast if we taught kids about contraception, some of them would use it and the teen preggers rate would go down. The Vatican has got this whole issue ass backwards. They teach about contraception so that kids WON'T use it? What a bunch of gorillas.

[darin]

That's my point. The kids who are gonna screw do. And the ones who aren't going to don't.


True that is not. Kids can be influenced and taught how to give in to their lusts/hormones not. Of a disciplined mind you underestimate the power. Hmmmmmm.

[Hagbard Celine]

Not true, really - That's a VERY simplistic viewpoint. Kids CAN be influenced to NOT screw. Blank Slates we are. Impressionable as kids, we are. A whore one does NOT have to become.

My statement was made with the assumption that kids will have been told to abstain. So again if you tell kids not to screw, the ones who are going to screw do and the ones who aren't going to don't. I say give them condoms and birth control so that the ones who do screw don't have kids when they're too young.

[krisy]

True that is not. Kids can be influenced and taught how to give in to their lusts/hormones not. Of a disciplined mind you underestimate the power. Hmmmmmm.


I agree. I just cannot imagine giving my son or daughter(who are only 6 and 12 now) condoms or birth control at that age. I have a lot of trouble with the "their gonna do it anyway argument". Like I said,a lot of them might,but with my kids,it won't happen with my blessing. Jessica Simpson in all her beauty managed to stay a virgin until she married:laugh2: I had to throw that in!

[Nienna]

True that is not. Kids can be influenced and taught how to give in to their lusts/hormones not. Of a disciplined mind you underestimate the power. Hmmmmmm.

I know why I had sex. I remember the first time, thinking, "I'm not really sure I want to do this," but felt as though I was "supposed to." Honestly. With more positive influences, I doubt I would have had sex as a teen. I was a very by-the-rules kind of kid in most ways.

[Hagbard Celine]

True that is not. Kids can be influenced and taught how to give in to their lusts/hormones not. Of a disciplined mind you underestimate the power. Hmmmmmm.

Mmmm! Works abstinence-only education does not! Hmmm!

Rrrhhhhgggggggg! Aaaaarrrggghhhhhh!
http://bestweekever.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/chewbacca.jpgTeach da kids about contraception sucka!

[darin]

My statement was made with the assumption that kids will have been told to abstain. So again if you tell kids not to screw, the ones who are going to screw do and the ones who aren't going to don't. I say give them condoms and birth control so that the ones who do screw don't have kids when they're too young.


How about making sex between teenagers criminal, hmm? .

Their behavior giving kids a condom only is encourages. It gives them an 'out'. With realities of biology let them get pregnant and deal - better deterrent, that is. Give up the child for adoption if she wants, the girl can.

Oh. Wait. To give the kids another 'out' by killing the baby; easier than dealing with real life it is.

:- /

[darin]

Mmmm! Works abstinence-only education does not! Hmmm!

Rrrhhhhgggggggg! Aaaaarrrggghhhhhh!
Teach da kids about contraception sucka!


wahuwawo - rooohu rarcwo oowhanro rrahhoahwhrr orahwac wowhoaoohurcrarrwoscwowhao aooo wwoorcwhahoaraaowo. rooohurc akanrawh ohahanan anworawa aooo aoacwo wawocaorchuoaaoahoowh ooww anahhowoc!!!

[Birdzeye]

True that is not. Kids can be influenced and taught how to give in to their lusts/hormones not. Of a disciplined mind you underestimate the power. Hmmmmmm.

A lot of people don't have a "disciplined mind," despite efforts to train them to have one.

Frankly, I'd rather that the kids who ignore the "Don't" command take measures to try to prevent pregnancy and STDs.

[Hagbard Celine]

How about making sex between teenagers criminal, hmm? .

Their behavior giving kids a condom only is encourages. It gives them an 'out'. With realities of biology let them get pregnant and deal - better deterrent, that is. Give up the child for adoption if she wants, the girl can.

Oh. Wait. To give the kids another 'out' by killing the baby; easier than dealing with real life it is.

:- /

I'm sorry, did you say "make sex between teens criminal?" You've gone off the deep end my friend. Sex is not a criminal act. It's a fun and beautiful one. And if the boy had a condom at his disposal and the girl had been on birth control, maybe, just maybe the girl wouldn't have to be thinking about abortion at all.

[Hagbard Celine]

wahuwawo - rooohu rarcwo oowhanro rrahhoahwhrr orahwac wowhoaoohurcrarrwoscwowhao aooo wwoorcwhahoaraaowo. rooohurc akanrawh ohahanan anworawa aooo aoacwo wawocaorchuoaaoahoowh ooww anahhowoc!!!

We could have Star Wars characters be the face of the campaign!

http://forevergeek.com/images/boba.jpg
"Don't be a fool kids, wrap your tool."

[darin]

A lot of people don't have a "disciplined mind," despite efforts to train them to have one.

That's the fault of parents. :(




Frankly, I'd rather that the kids who ignore the "Don't" command take measures to try to prevent pregnancy and STDs.

Pregnancy isn't a bad thing - it's not the problem with pre-marital sex. The problem is having sex before one is married can cause emotional damage one could otherwise avoid. IMO, Pregnancy is the least of the 'repercussions'

[darin]

I'm sorry, did you say "make sex between teens criminal?" You've gone off the deep end my friend. Sex is not a criminal act.

At least read, brother. I didn't SAY it - I wrote a question ASKING if we should criminalize sex between non-married teens. If you want to avoid STDs and unwanted babies, it's ONE method to reduce instances of each. For the record, SOMETIMES sex is a criminal act. I'm asking if we should simply add more stringent requirements on who we let have sex.


It's a fun and beautiful one. And if the boy had a condom at his disposal and the girl had been on birth control, maybe, just maybe the girl wouldn't have to be thinking about abortion at all.

No - sex is not fun and beautiful between non-married teens. It's destructive and hurtful and harms normal development. Giving the boy a condom says "Okay - go ahead...screw to your heart's desire. You aren't READY for the bonding and attachments and results of your screwing - but it's fun, so do it."

[Birdzeye]

Well, since I wasn't screwing around when I was a teen, I wouldn't know if it was not fun (as a teen). It's just that some of my classmates were screwing like jackrabbits, so I have to surmise that at least it was "fun" for the moment for them.

It may very well have been bad for their "development," but it seemed like they enjoyed it.

[darin]

It may very well have been bad for their "development," but it seemed like they enjoyed it.

Never justification for activities, "enjoying an activity" is for those which are harmful. We try and 'help' alcoholics because they harm themselves. Of behaviours people enjoy we pass laws against - all sorts because of the associated risks. To stop being ninnies and beat their kids from a young age parents need; of kids instill discipline and appropriateness in the minds.

Sometimes it works not. Brought up in a strict household, I was, and I started having sex at age 16. Benefited from my parents giving me condoms, would I have, hmm? No - have done it more, I would. Have poured myself into my girlfriend (no pun intended) in such a way my mind, I would, body, and emotions were equipped to handle not. Herh herh herh.

:-/

[Birdzeye]

Most teens are foolish, IMO, and are just starting to learn about consequences.

If I had a daughter, I'd rather she not have sex, at least until she meets the love of her life, the guy she wants to spend the rest of her life with. But if she's not going to wait, then I'd rather she make sure the guy uses a condom. I sure as hell wouldn't be giving them to her; she can damned well go to the pharmacy and buy them herself. But I'd sure as hell be making sure she knows not only how babies are made but also about contraception.

[darin]

Most teens are foolish, IMO, and are just starting to learn about consequences.

If I had a daughter, I'd rather she not have sex, at least until she meets the love of her life, the guy she wants to spend the rest of her life with. But if she's not going to wait, then I'd rather she make sure the guy uses a condom. I sure as hell wouldn't be giving them to her; she can damned well go to the pharmacy and buy them herself. But I'd sure as hell be making sure she knows not only how babies are made but also about contraception.

No - you beat her enough to be too scared to have sex before marriage

:D

[Hagbard Celine]

At least read, brother. I didn't SAY it - I wrote a question ASKING if we should criminalize sex between non-married teens. If you want to avoid STDs and unwanted babies, it's ONE method to reduce instances of each. For the record, SOMETIMES sex is a criminal act. I'm asking if we should simply add more stringent requirements on who we let have sex.Who we LET have sex? What is this East Berlin? I didn't know there were requirements on who we let have sex now! Should there also be requirements on which positions are allowed and which are to be labeled as "unsavory?" I don't know! I'm just asking. Just posing the question! :eek:


No - sex is not fun and beautiful between non-married teens. It's destructive and hurtful and harms normal development. Giving the boy a condom says "Okay - go ahead...screw to your heart's desire. You aren't READY for the bonding and attachments and results of your screwing - but it's fun, so do it."
I don't know, maybe you did it wrong or something. I always thought those feelings I had were ones of enjoyment and pleasure that I was connecting so closely with my girlfriend. I see now that they were actually feelings of rage and depression that I wasn't married. :(

[darin]

Who we LET have sex? What is this East Berlin? I didn't know there were requirements on who we let have sex now! Should there also be requirements on which positions are allowed and which are to be labeled as "unsavory?" I don't know! I'm just asking. Just posing the question! :eek:

Illegal for a person older than 18 to have sex with another person younger than 16, is it. Illegal for a man to have sex with a dog, it is. Etcetera. Hmmmmmm.



I don't know, maybe you did it wrong or something. I always thought those feelings I had were ones of enjoyment and pleasure that I was connecting so closely with my girlfriend. I see now that they were actually feelings of rage and depression that I wasn't married. :(

Because naive, you are. Removes a piece of you, having sex with somebody to whom you are not married. With your spouse much harder makes finding total fulfillment, promiscuity does. Yes, hmmm.

[Birdzeye]

No - you beat her enough to be too scared to have sex before marriage

:D

Well, my parents didn't beat me, but they sure scared the crap out of me! I was sure they'd beat me senseless if I came home preggers! I'm sure my fear was grossly exaggerated. They'd have gotten hysterical, and you don't want to deal with my mom when she's in that state!

:D

[darin]

Well, my parents didn't beat me, but they sure scared the crap out of me! I was sure they'd beat me senseless if I came home preggers! I'm sure my fear was grossly exaggerated. They'd have gotten hysterical, and you don't want to deal with my mom when she's in that state!

:D

:D

My first wife didn't have sex before we got married - with ANYONE. She married as a virgin; out of duty to God and her Faith...and fear of 'letting down' her parents.

She wasn't as sexually-sheltered as I was, however. My mom was VERY VERY harsh when it came to ANY information to which I was exposed; even non-sexual, sterile, biological information.

[Abbey Marie]

Shall we hand out needles, and teach teens how to shoot-up safely? Some of them are going to do heroin anyway. :dunno:

[darin]

Shall we hand out needles, and teach teens how to shoot-up safely? Some of them are going to do heroin anyway. :dunno:

Excellent example....some of the impact is lost, however, because you didnt speak like Yoda. :(

:D

[Abbey Marie]

Excellent example....some of the impact is lost, however, because you didnt speak like Yoda. :(

:D

Try better next time, I will.

[darin]

Try better next time, I will.

And succeed you will.

[Hagbard Celine]

Shall we hand out needles, and teach teens how to shoot-up safely? Some of them are going to do heroin anyway. :dunno:

Yeah, because sex is the same as heroin. :rolleyes: :420:

[Abbey Marie]

Yeah, because sex is the same as heroin. :rolleyes: :420:

It's called an analogy. You know, a comparison of two different things which shows their commonalities? The argument that "they're going to do it anyway" applies perfectly to both activities.

[darin]

It's called an analogy. You know, a comparison of two different things which shows their commonalities? The argument that "they're going to do it anyway" applies perfectly to both activities.

pwn3d. :D

nice!

[Birdzeye]

Shall we hand out needles, and teach teens how to shoot-up safely? Some of them are going to do heroin anyway. :dunno:


Some people have advocated that. I'm kind of on the fence, because, unlike sex (which is a normal activity), I don't see shooting yourself up with drugs to be normal - except for my diabetic brother who has to inject some of his meds. OTOH, I know someone who got hepatitis C from youthful drug abuse, and went through a living hell during treatment for that disease.

I'm inclined to be biased towards disease prevention.

[darin]

I'm inclined to be biased towards disease prevention.



me too! That's one reason to preach abstinence to kids. :) No other way to prevent STDs than to Not have Sex, right?

:)

[Hagbard Celine]

It's called an analogy. You know, a comparison of two different things which shows their commonalities? The argument that "they're going to do it anyway" applies perfectly to both activities.

You're right. Teaching teens to use contraceptives is the same as helping someone shoot heroin. :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

You're right. Teaching teens to use contraceptives is the same as helping someone shoot heroin. :rolleyes:

No, not helping them to shoot heroin. Helping them to shoot it safely, since they're going to do it anyway. I suppose we could hand out clean needles, while teaching drug abstinence. :rolleyes:

P.S. Thanks for the kinder, gentler edit. :wink2:

[Birdzeye]

me too! That's one reason to preach abstinence to kids. :) No other way to prevent STDs than to Not have Sex, right?

:)

And that's why abstinence should be a part of sex education, as the best and only surefire way to prevent disease (and pregnancy). I just happen to believe that keeping kids ignorant of information on contraception is NOT going to keep them chaste, and that the ignorance will result in disease and pregnancy when the kids decide to screw anyways.

[Abbey Marie]

And that's why abstinence should be a part of sex education, as the best and only surefire way to prevent disease (and pregnancy). I just happen to believe that keeping kids ignorant of information on contraception is NOT going to keep them chaste, and that the ignorance will result in disease and pregnancy when the kids decide to screw anyways.

I wonder if people think there is a difference between teaching about contraception, and handing out condoms?

[Hagbard Celine]

No, not helping them to shoot heroin. Helping them to shoot it safely, since they're going to do it anyway. I suppose we could hand out clean needles, while teaching drug abstinence. :rolleyes:

P.S. Thanks for the kinder, gentler edit. :wink2:

Oh yeah, I agree, because teaching kids about contraception so that they can avoid pregnancy and STDs is the same as giving a heroin addict clean needles so that they can avoid disease. It's totally the same principle. Everyone knows that sex and heroin should be saved for marriage. :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

Oh yeah, I agree, because teaching kids about contraception so that they can avoid pregnancy and STDs is the same as giving a heroin addict clean needles so that they can avoid disease. It's totally the same principle. Everyone knows that sex and heroin should be saved for marriage. :rolleyes:

Once again, it is a very logical analogy. Avoiding unintended consequences, avoiding disease, handing out the means to do it more safelybecasue they are going to do it anyway. I can't help you any further if you can't or won't see it.

[-Cp]

If the mother doesn't want it, she should be able to get rid of it. If you're going to force the mother to have it, are you going to take care of it when it gets here? I'm certainly not going to take care of someone else's unwanted progeny, so it must be up to you since you're fighting so fervently for the "right to life." It'd better be you because odds are that the mother is just going to leave it in a dumpster behind the hospital since she didn't want it to begin with.

You're soooooo righteous because you think you're "fighting" for the unborn :rolleyes: Yeah right. But once they get here they're on their own right?

At what age would it be NOT okay for the mom to have her kid murdered?

[Birdzeye]

I wonder if people think there is a difference between teaching about contraception, and handing out condoms?


I do. I see no need to actually hand out the condoms to the kids. Hell, they can get their own at the pharmacy or the supermarket.

[Hagbard Celine]

Once again, it is a very logical analogy. Avoiding unintended consequences, avoiding disease, handing out the means to do it more safelybecasue they are going to do it anyway. I can't help you any further if you can't or won't see it.

Hey, no, I totally agree with you on this. Having sex and shooting heroin are basically the same thing except that one is the sign of a healthy relationship, healthy sexual appetite and can lead to happiness and a more intense connection with your partner and the other is an addictive practice that numbs people's minds and ruins people's lives causing deep depression and many times leading to death. I can totally see how teaching teens to use contraception is exactly the same concept as giving heroin addicts clean needles. Both can prevent disease! :thewave:

[Hagbard Celine]

At what age would it be NOT okay for the mom to have her kid murdered?

I think I've posted it about a hundred times that I think abortion should be ruled-out as an option after the second trimester.

[darin]

edit: Pre-marital Sex is an addictive practice that numbs people's minds and ruins people's lives causing deep depression and many times leading to death.

Exactly.

Pre-marital sex is pure selfishness. It tells the other person "I'm more concerned about having sex with you than I am about the long-term adverse affects which may arise".

[Hagbard Celine]

Exactly.

Pre-marital sex is pure selfishness. It tells the other person "I'm more concerned about having sex with you than I am about the long-term adverse affects which may arise".

You assume that the "other person" doesn't also want to have sex. Unless you're a rapist, I doubt the other person is going to get the message you posted above. I don't know how you do things, but this is certainly not true of my past or present relationships.

And I can't believe you would bastardize one of my posts just to illustrate your pov. Boo! :)

[darin]

You assume that the "other person" doesn't also want to have sex. Unless you're a rapist, I doubt the other person is going to get the message you posted above. I don't know how you do things, but this is certainly not true of my past or present relationships.

No I'm not. I'm saying as a man, you should grab your sack and stand up for what is right. If a woman wants to have premarital sex, she's actually settling for a cheap-substitute of what it COULD be if she were married to the man. Maybe she THINKS that is what she wants, but it's really not 'BEST' for her. As a MAN you should go beyond what she offers and look out for her best interests. Take a hummer instead maybe? :p:



And I can't believe you would bastardize one of my posts just to illustrate your pov. Boo! :)

But you just don't know that you're using the wrong argument. That was a VERY good way of proving to YOU that your POV is wrong.

:)

[-Cp]

I think I've posted it about a hundred times that I think abortion should be ruled-out as an option after the second trimester.

So killing another human - in the name of "who'll raise the kid?" - is okay as long as they're young enough?

[Hagbard Celine]

So killing another human - in the name of "who'll raise the kid?" - is okay as long as they're young enough?

Yes. But only if you eat them with pepper jelly afterwards.

[Hagbard Celine]

No I'm not. I'm saying as a man, you should grab your sack and stand up for what is right. If a woman wants to have premarital sex, she's actually settling for a cheap-substitute of what it COULD be if she were married to the man. Maybe she THINKS that is what she wants, but it's really not 'BEST' for her. As a MAN you should go beyond what she offers and look out for her best interests. Take a hummer instead maybe? :p:



But you just don't know that you're using the wrong argument. That was a VERY good way of proving to YOU that your POV is wrong.

:)

Man, a hummer isn't as good as vagina heaven and you know that. When you're in the throes and both of you want it, neither of you are thinking about marriage. :suck: And I don't see why marriage would do anything for a person's sex life anyway. From what I hear, marriage is like poison for your sex life.

[darin]

Man, a hummer isn't as good as vagina heaven and you know that. When you're in the throes and both of you want it, neither of you are thinking about marriage. :suck:

Of course! But what we DO and "Should Do" differ, quite often, no? Yes.


And I don't see why marriage would do anything for a person's sex life anyway. From what I hear, marriage is like poison for your sex life.


And you will not be able to see why, until your heart gets right.

:)

[Missileman]

Here's the crazy part - Not having sex outside of marriage HELPS people. It makes them measurably BETTER human beings.

I'm all ears...please describe this measurement process including the different grades of human beings on your scale. What kinds of measurements are these by the way, visual, aural, tactile,...?

[darin]

I'm all ears...please describe this measurement process including the different grades of human beings on your scale. What kinds of measurements are these by the way, visual, aural, tactile,...?

tactile and aural.

[Missileman]

At least read, brother. I didn't SAY it - I wrote a question ASKING if we should criminalize sex between non-married teens. If you want to avoid STDs and unwanted babies, it's ONE method to reduce instances of each. For the record, SOMETIMES sex is a criminal act. I'm asking if we should simply add more stringent requirements on who we let have sex.

Yeah...prohibition has a great track record of success.

[Missileman]

tactile and aural.

That's not a very detailed description of the measurement process...would you expound please?

[darin]

Yeah...prohibition has a great track record of success.

And Mark Martin drives for NASCAR. WTF does prohibition have to do with what we're talking about, or what I replied?

[Missileman]

Shall we hand out needles, and teach teens how to shoot-up safely? Some of them are going to do heroin anyway. :dunno:

How about when a kid turns 16, we just throw him or her car keys and tell them to have at it. They should be able to operate okay if you just tell them not to speed.

[Missileman]

And Mark Martin drives for NASCAR. WTF does prohibition have to do with what we're talking about, or what I replied?

You're talking about prohibiting teens from having sex...

[darin]

You're talking about prohibiting teens from having sex...

Okay - I asked a valid question, for debate. You compared that with Alcohol Prohibitions. :)

[Missileman]

Okay - I asked a valid question, for debate. You compared that with Alcohol Prohibitions. :)

It's the same principle though...prohibition of alcohol led to the rise of the mafia, prohibition of narcotics has given us Columbian drug cartels. Who knows what a prohibition of teen sex might result in. And you're talking about criminalizing an innate biological need. And what kind of punishment do you think might be called for? Do we need to send kids to prison for it?

[darin]

It's the same principle though...prohibition of alcohol led to the rise of the mafia, prohibition of narcotics has given us Columbian drug cartels. Who knows what a prohibition of teen sex might result in. And you're talking about criminalizing an innate biological need. And what kind of punishment do you think might be called for? Do we need to send kids to prison for it?

We prohibit teens from driving. It's against the law for them to vote. Or stay out late in some places. If we are REALLY concerned about the health of kids, maybe we criminalize sex-acts too? That's my point.

[Missileman]

We prohibit teens from driving. It's against the law for them to vote. Or stay out late in some places. If we are REALLY concerned about the health of kids, maybe we criminalize sex-acts too? That's my point.

Teens are not prohibited from driving, other than that your list is accurate in things with a minimum age requirement.

Let's say we try your plan...what are your sentencing guidelines for a pair of 16-year-olds who engage in a sex act. Would you make the offense a misdemeanor or a felony? Are you really willing to create a whole new class of criminal just to enforce your sense of sexual morality?

[darin]

Teens are not prohibited from driving


Tell that to my 13 year old Niece. ;)



Let's say we try your plan...what are your sentencing guidelines for a pair of 16-year-olds who engage in a sex act. Would you make the offense a misdemeanor or a felony? Are you really willing to create a whole new class of criminal just to enforce your sense of sexual morality?

No idea yet. Misdemeanor, I'd guess...similar punishments if a kids breaks a city curfew, I'd guess.

My sense of sexual morality is RIGHT, it happens. :D Sex before marriage only causes HARM...never good.

[Missileman]

No idea yet. Misdemeanor, I'd guess...similar punishments if a kids breaks a city curfew, I'd guess.

You're still talking about giving a kid a record that might very well adversely affect his future for nothing. You are also setting them up for escalation of offense if they violate the terms of their punishment/parole.


Sex before marriage only causes HARM...never good.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on sex. You'll never convince me that a virgin is a better person than a non-virgin. Speaking of which, you never did explain your system of measurement.

[Nienna]

Never justification for activities, "enjoying an activity" is for those which are harmful. We try and 'help' alcoholics because they harm themselves. Of behaviours people enjoy we pass laws against - all sorts because of the associated risks. To stop being ninnies and beat their kids from a young age parents need; of kids instill discipline and appropriateness in the minds.

Sometimes it works not. Brought up in a strict household, I was, and I started having sex at age 16. Benefited from my parents giving me condoms, would I have, hmm? No - have done it more, I would. Have poured myself into my girlfriend (no pun intended) in such a way my mind, I would, body, and emotions were equipped to handle not. Herh herh herh.

:-/

That SOUNDS good... can you say it with the Yoda "off" for those of us who are Yoda-understanding-impaired?

[darin]

That SOUNDS good... can you say it with the Yoda "off" for those of us who are Yoda-understanding-impaired?

Asking me to be who I am not, you are! :)