Venezuela Wants Sub Fleet for Conflict with U.S.

[stephanie]

:uhoh:
Monday, Feb. 19, 2007 1:10 p.m. EST

Venezuela is spending $3 billion to build nine submarines, a fleet of undersea craft that would be the largest in the region -- and ready to be used against the U.S. in event of a conflict between the two countries.

The submarines will be the "diesel-electric variety," according to a communique issued by Vice Adm. Armband Laguna, quoted this month by Brazil's leading newspaper, O Estado de Sao Paulo.

They will weigh-in at approximately 1,750 metric tons apiece.

The navy is considering bids from Germany, France, and Russia, which is said to be the odds-on favorite, according to the Washington Times.

Venezuela, the Times wrote, could use a fleet of submarines to protect its interests in its exclusive economic zone, which in Caracas' view includes a large portion of the Caribbean Sea.

Protecting an area that large would require far more subs than the two over-30-years-old German U-Boats that the Venezuelan military now employs.

Moreover, the addition of the nine subs would give Venezuela the largest submarine fleet in Latin America, surpassing those of Peru, Brazil and Chile -- with six, five and four submarines, respectively.

Venezuela says it is beefing up its military capabilities -- including plans to develop an enlarged submarine fleet -- in preparation for what it called any "asymmetrical conflict" with the U.S.

The new submarine fleet is a small part of an arms buildup that the Times reports includes small arms, jet fighters and potentially air-defense missiles.

The buildup is being carried out in compliance with all international and regional nonproliferation treaties, Venezuela's ambassador to Washington, Bernardo Alvarez told the Times in a telephone interview.
Alvarez said that his government was contemplating the need to defend itself against the world's lone superpower, a nation with vastly greater military resources.

"We have simply been trying to upgrade our military equipment and maintain our defense while preserving balance in the hemisphere," Mr. Alvarez added. He also insisted that Venezuela's Latin American neighbors need not worry about the buildup.

According to the Times, Venezuela is reported to have already spent $3.4 billion on Russian arms, including assault rifles and fighter jets, and is said to be negotiating to buy a $290 million Russian air-defense system.

The Times noted that a Pentagon report estimated that Venezuela had spent about $4.3 billion on arms since 2005 alone, more than countries such as Iran, Pakistan and even China.

Venezuela also is pursuing an estimated $2 billion worth of military-transport ships and aircraft from Spain, a deal that the Times reports was delayed last year after the U.S. objected, noting that foreign companies must seek Washington's approval when de facto selling U.S. military technology.

Venezuela now is trying to work out a deal with Spain to swap out the U.S. parts in the 10 aircraft and eight vessels.

Venezuela already has done billions of dollars worth of business with Russia, purchasing 100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles, 24 Sukhoi-30 fighters and about 35 helicopters.

More recently, Venezuela has its sights set on buying Russian air-defense missiles known as the Tor-M1 system, which consists of eight missiles in a battery mounted to a launch vehicle. The short-range system is designed for use against low-flying aircraft and incoming missiles.

The Times wrote that a Venezuela military official told the Associated Press last month that the missiles were wanted for "air defense" only -- a notion in keeping with Mr. Chavez's repeated warnings about the threat of a U.S. invasion, a threat the U.S. dismisses as fantasy.

Among Washington concerns is the fear that the Russian assault rifles could wind up in the hands of leftist rebels in neighboring Colombia or be used to further the Venezuelan leader's socialist agenda in the region.

"I can see why Chavez wants to militarize Venezuela. ... He's a military man, just like Bolivar was a military man," John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org. told the Times, which noted that Simon Bolivar, whom Mr. Chavez idolizes, liberated several Latin American nations from Spain during the 19th century.

Waging war with the U.S., however "would be a foolish thing to do," he added, noting that even a minor skirmish would jeopardize Venezuela's oil sales to its largest customer.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/2/19/132740.shtml?s=ic

[Gaffer]

I think he has designs on conquoring some of his nieghbors. His sub fleet would be taken out in one day if he tried to use them against the US. Where is he building these subs?

Once again communism rears its ugly head in South America. The dems will be delighted and probably offer to help him fund his build up.

As he's an ally of iran I do think he bears watching tho.

[LiberalNation]

Chavez isn't your traditional communist though. He did win a free election and his people love him.

We should have done a better job with that coup we supported and got rid of him for good instead it fails, he comes back, and we have egg on our face. Something like that's impossible now so where just gona have to deal I guess. Fingers crossed he doesn’t become another Castro and allows free elections for his country.

[CSM]

Chavez isn't your traditional communist though. He did win a free election and his people love him.

We should have done a better job with that coup we supported and got rid of him for good instead it fails, he comes back, and we have egg on our face. Something like that's impossible now so where just gona have to deal I guess. Fingers crossed he doesn’t become another Castro and allows free elections for his country.

Yeah, keeping fingers crossed is always a good tactic.

[manu1959]

Yeah, keeping fingers crossed is always a good tactic.

it works when making promises

[manu1959]

Chavez isn't your traditional communist though. He did win a free election and his people love him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2581805.stm

[LiberalNation]

Correct that to many of his people then. The upper business class doesn't of course but he has made a lot of promises to the poorer folks which most I'm betting appreciate.

[manu1959]

Correct that to many of his people then. The upper business class doesn't of course but he has made a lot of promises to the poorer folks which most I'm betting appreciate.

yes that will happen when a government starts taking private companys......

[LiberalNation]

Yeah, keeping fingers crossed is always a good tactic.
What do you suppose we do he's is not a big enough problem. Acting against would just cause bigger one untill he actually does something against us besides disagreeing with our policy.

[LiberalNation]

yes that will happen when a government starts taking private companys......
He a socialist, that is their views like them or not.

[manu1959]

He a socialist, that is their views like them or not.

socialist do not take private companies....communists and dictatorships take private companies and make them state run.....

[LiberalNation]

Communist normally try to control more than just a few companies importent to national interests though. Chavez hasn't quite gotten there yet compared to say cuba or NK real communist states.

[Dilloduck]

What do you suppose we do he's is not a big enough problem. Acting against would just cause bigger one untill he actually does something against us besides disagreeing with our policy.

Even if he blew us all to hell there are those who say we need to stay outta his business ( or we deserved it).

[manu1959]

Communist normally try to control more than just a few companies importent to national interests though. Chavez hasn't quite gotten there yet compared to say cuba or NK real communist states.

he has taken all the ones that matter....

[LiberalNation]

He does not have the capacity to blow all us to hell. We could easily defeat him militarily and he knows it.

[Hobbit]

We played submarine cat and mouse with the Soviets for decades, and we won. Our subs are faster, quieter, and more deadly than anything else out there. If he moved against us, the sub fleet would be gone in less than 60 seconds.

[Dilloduck]

He does not have the capacity to blow all us to hell. We could easily defeat him militarily and he knows it.

That wasn't the point swhooooooooooosh Right over the top.:laugh2:

[LiberalNation]

No your point was wrong, hardly any Americans would defend him if he attacked us and oppose a counter attack. Even the dreaded liberals you worry about.

[manu1959]

No your point was wrong, hardly any Americans would defend him if he attacked us and oppose a counter attack. Even the dreaded liberals you worry about.

why does joseph kennedy and cindy sheehan fly down and have photo ops and praise him for what he is doing....not to mentionn his speech at the UN

[LiberalNation]

To get media attention, they're both media whores and Cindy a bit of nut on top of that.

[Yurt]

Communist normally try to control more than just a few companies importent to national interests though. Chavez hasn't quite gotten there yet compared to say cuba or NK real communist states.

You have to admit, this is merely reality in semantics. Do you really believe his goals are otherwise?

[LiberalNation]

You have to admit, this is merely reality in semantics. Do you really believe his goals are otherwise?
Not personally but will see what happens.

[Yurt]

Not personally but will see what happens.

Fair enough. What then is your basis for your opinion?

My basis is his background and former attempts at power. His current power grab which is a direct reality, for he does not need to grab so many "private" resources/commodities to be more of a socialist. Look at any democratic (usually very discernable on the far left) platform, it is about the redistribution of wealth, which is what you said Chavez is all about. Socialist.

Let me ask you this, do you support his actions, not because he was "elected" but his actions alone?

[Gaffer]

chevez has been granted dictatorial powers over the country. He's another castro. The people are all for him because he makes a lot of promises that he will never carry through on. As it continues his whole economy will be based on military build up. opposition will be eliminated and he'll rule with an iron fist just like castro and lil kim. He's already made himself head of the church there and wants to be elevated to god status eventually. He's a bonafide nut case and in that sense very dangerous. Plus he's not on an island like cuba. He can expand out by supporting insurgencies in the nieghboring countries.

He's closely allied with iran so if things get hot there we will have to watch him very closely. Iran has set up training camps in venezuela and they are being taught spanish to allow them to slip over the southern borders into this country as mexicans or south americans. He's also purchasing medium range missiles from iran, which could reach the mainland of the US. chavez mistakenly thinks he's going to control the bull once he lets it in the house.

[LiberalNation]

Fair enough. What then is your basis for your opinion?
He's repeated attempts to gain more and more power for himself like abolishing term limits makes it seem to me like he's heading in the direction of absolute power in his country by taking small bites at a time.

Let me ask you this, do you support his actions, not because he was "elected" but his actions alone
I don't support the government taking over private companies because I don't believe government could run them any better and will in fact make things worse by doing so. Wealth disruption through different taxation and legislation like minimum wage is a much better idea if that's what the people in that country want and it doesn't take away the peoples right to own and operate private industries.

[Yurt]

He's repeated attempts to gain more and more power for himself like abolishing term limits makes it seem to me like he's heading in the direction of absolute power in his country by taking small bites at a time.

I don't support the government taking over private companies because I don't believe government could run them any better and will in fact make things worse by doing so. Wealth disruption through different taxation and legislation like minimum wage is a much better idea if that's what the people in that country want and it doesn't take away the peoples right to own and operate private industries.

Ok, but then you agree chavez is not using this approach. Given that I did ask whether you supported his actions, I am given to assume that you don't by this. That is good.

You wealth distribution idea could be another topic, of which we may not be far apart on. However, given the thread, since you don't agree with his tactics, I can safely assume that his tactics are "bad." I ask again, do you support him?

If such acts were to go unchecked, what do you think the result would be?

[Gaffer]

He's not going for wealth distribution. He's after full and complete power. His goal's are so clear a blind man can see them. He'll use the ignorance and greed of his countrymen to get what he wants. They will be the ones that pay for it tho.

[LiberalNation]

I ask again, do you support him?
I do not support him because of his policies but in a big part because rightly or wrongly he is not a friend to the US which also matter a lot to me since I live here.

If such acts were to go unchecked, what do you think the result would be?
Venezuela would have to deal with despot has their leader or over throw him. I don't think it would have much of an effect on us. He can't afford to stop selling us his oil even if he harps on it because it's that oil money he needs to keep his power.

[LiberalNation]

He's not going for wealth distribution. He's after full and complete power. His goal's are so clear a blind man can see them.

That has yet to be outright proven, wait for the next few elction over there to roll around then will know for sure.

[Gaffer]

That has yet to be outright proven, wait for the next few elction over there to roll around then will know for sure.

There won't be any more elections there. Not any real ones anyway. Maybe a carter certified phoney one but no real elections. He's president for life now.

[Yurt]

I do not support him because of his policies but in a big part because rightly or wrongly he is not a friend to the US which also matter a lot to me since I live here.

Venezuela would have to deal with despot has their leader or over throw him. I don't think it would have much of an effect on us. He can't afford to stop selling us his oil even if he harps on it because it's that oil money he needs to keep his power.

That is a fair answer. What policies then do you support to contain such a "leader?"

[LiberalNation]

That is a fair answer. What policies then do you support to contain such a "leader?"
Well lets not sell him weapons and try to convince other countries to do the same. Also try to limit his influence over other SA countries with our own better ideas/incentives.

[Dilloduck]

Well lets not sell him weapons and try to convince other countries to do the same. Also try to limit his influence over other SA countries with our own better ideas/incentives.

Including an arms embargo on sales to Venezuela from any country ?

[LiberalNation]

If it could be attained.

[trobinett]

Ever sense Britain kicked Venezuela's ass in the Falkland war, Venezuela hasn't been worth a shit, pure, and simple.

Spin it any way you want.

This latest tirade is only proof positive of what a complete "dick head" this guy is.

How any other country could possibly take this person serious is totally beyond me.

Him and Castro are truly peas in a pod................

[Gaffer]

NK, iran, russia and china, to name a few, will sell him anything he wants to buy.

Funding his nieghbors to help them fight off chevez's insurgents will be difficult to get through the democrats in congress. Again history comes in to play. The iran conta scandal of reagan. The democrats refused to fund the anti-communists forces in salvador and nicaragua. I sense another de javu.

[MtnBiker]

Venezuela is spending $3 billion to build nine submarines, a fleet of undersea craft that would be the largest in the region -- and ready to be used against the U.S. in event of a conflict between the two countries.

The submarines will be the "diesel-electric variety," according to a communique issued by Vice Adm. Armband Laguna, quoted this month by Brazil's leading newspaper, O Estado de Sao Paulo.

Mostly posturing on Chavez's part. He is just trying to flex a little muscle. I am quite confident that our Los Angeles class nuclear hunter subs can handle those deisel subs.

[trobinett]

Mostly posturing on Chavez's part. He is just trying to flex a little muscle. I am quite confident that our Los Angeles class nuclear hunter subs can handle those deisel subs.

Without even working up a sweat.............:lol:

[Gaffer]

I am more concerned with his getting medium range missiles and setting up terror training camps then I am about his subs.

[Yurt]

Well lets not sell him weapons and try to convince other countries to do the same. Also try to limit his influence over other SA countries with our own better ideas/incentives.

And this will bring him to your world idea?

Yes

or

No

[LiberalNation]

It will make him a non-factor that can be ignored and that would fit into my world idea. He isn't even a factor now except for all that oil he's setting on.