Senator McCain's Take: Don't Censor Intelligent Design

[Pale Rider]

Senator McCain's Take: Don't Censor Intelligent Design



Senator John McCain personally believes in evolution, but he takes a classically liberal view which says that ideas should not be hidden from students--

"From a personal standpoint, I believe in evolution," Mr. McCain said.

I would prefer that Senator McCain explain what he means by "evolution"--mere "change through time," or the full-blown Neo-Darwinian claim that all of the complexity of life arose via random mutations coupled with blind natural selection. But what Senator McCain personally thinks about ID is much less important than what he would do as a government official. Senator McCain takes a classically liberal view on education, and the freedom of students to learn. He points out that students should not be sheltered from ideas just because they are controversial. While the article inappropriately claims that intelligent design claims that "God had a hand in creation," it's refreshing to hear that classical liberals like McCain still exist.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/07/senator_mccains_take_dont_cens.html

[PostmodernProphet]

shucks, Pale....I thought you didn't like him....why are you posting good things about him........

[Pale Rider]

shucks, Pale....I thought you didn't like him....why are you posting good things about him........

This isn't a good thing in the eyes of the Christian right... :poke:

[PostmodernProphet]

????.....what Christian right are you thinking of that would object to the teaching of intelligent design?......would that be the Christian so-far-right-you-can't-see-them-from-here?..........

[theHawk]

Well if he says it shouldn't be hidden from students then I would have to say I agree with him. How is this a bad thing?

[manu1959]

Well if he says it shouldn't be hidden from students then I would have to say I agree with him. How is this a bad thing?

it is a bad thing because mccain should only belive in creationisim or he is not a conservative......

wait for it....

[Pale Rider]

it is a bad thing because mccain should only belive in creationisim or he is not a conservative......

wait for it....

It really wasn't that hard to figure out. I guess I should thank you for having to explain the obvious.

[Kathianne]

I'm Christian, usually pretty right, but I'm not a 'literalist' regarding the Bible. I think that evolution explains much of what has occured since 'time began', it's what I think should be taught in science classes. I believe in a Divine Creator, a prime mover if you will. It was the force behind 'when time began.' When possible, it should be discussed in religion or philosophy classes. I would assume every child of 'Christian right' parents would be taught it at home, Sunday School.

[PostmodernProphet]

It really wasn't that hard to figure out. I guess I should thank you for having to explain the obvious.

you aren't really serious about that are you?......in the first place do you think there is a difference?......do you think a creator isn't an intelligent designer?......what is your alternative.....a stupid designer?......it isn't a good idea for you to stop thinking the minute you start posting, it gets you into trouble.....

[Pale Rider]

you aren't really serious about that are you?......in the first place do you think there is a difference?......do you think a creator isn't an intelligent designer?......what is your alternative.....a stupid designer?......it isn't a good idea for you to stop thinking the minute you start posting, it gets you into trouble.....

You're not really serious are? Do I have to go into more detail just because you don't get it?

OK... just for the slow people, mainly you, "Christians believe the earth and the heavens were created." OK? Understand now? To clarify further... "evolution is a THEORY, and it really doesn't matter if your a Christian or not, if you believe theories as a literal truth, you're just stupid." And, "Christians do NOT believe in evolution, and do NOT believe it should be taught as some sort of viable truth."

Now, Einstein, do you fucking get it? You try and sound all superior when in reality, you're just another dim witted jerk off, as usual. Give your sarcasm a break pmp... you're a witless little arm pit of a fool.

[hjmick]

You're not really serious are? Do I have to go into more detail just because you don't get it?

OK... just for the slow people, mainly you, "Christians believe the earth and the heavens were created." OK? Understand now? To clarify further... "evolution is a THEORY, and it really doesn't matter if your a Christian or not, if you believe theories as a literal truth, you're just stupid."

Now, Einstein, do fucking get it? You try and sound all superior when in reality, you're just another dim witted jerk off, as usual. Give your smart ass a break pmp... you're a witless little arm pit of a fool.

Gravity is a theory, I believe in gravity. Do you?

[Pale Rider]

Gravity is a theory, I believe in gravity. Do you?

Don't play me for a fool. You want to start shit with me, be up front.

[PostmodernProphet]

You're not really serious are? Do I have to go into more detail just because you don't get it?

OK... just for the slow people, mainly you, "Christians believe the earth and the heavens were created." OK? Understand now? To clarify further... "evolution is a THEORY, and it really doesn't matter if your a Christian or not, if you believe theories as a literal truth, you're just stupid." And, "Christians do NOT believe in evolution, and do NOT believe it should be taught as some sort of viable truth."

Now, Einstein, do you fucking get it? You try and sound all superior when in reality, you're just another dim witted jerk off, as usual. Give your sarcasm a break pmp... you're a witless little arm pit of a fool.

well, Pale....I am sorry that you have lost your mind as well as your focus, but the question isn't whether Christians believe in evolution, the question was why Christians wouldn't believe in intelligent design.....

so your condescension is a bit premature, as it was your stupidity, not mine, that created the confusion......

[Kathianne]

You're not really serious are? Do I have to go into more detail just because you don't get it?

OK... just for the slow people, mainly you, "Christians believe the earth and the heavens were created." OK? Understand now? To clarify further... "evolution is a THEORY, and it really doesn't matter if your a Christian or not, if you believe theories as a literal truth, you're just stupid." And, "Christians do NOT believe in evolution, and do NOT believe it should be taught as some sort of viable truth."

Now, Einstein, do you fucking get it? You try and sound all superior when in reality, you're just another dim witted jerk off, as usual. Give your sarcasm a break pmp... you're a witless little arm pit of a fool.

While Christians agree on a Creator, they don't necessarily go where fundamentalists go, time wise or developmentally wise. I disagree, strongly, that Christians do not believe in evolution. Some do, some don't. Unless of course you are now stating that some divine inspiration has given you or evangelicals the power to know all?

[PostmodernProphet]

Don't play me for a fool. You want to start shit with me, be up front.

if you don't want to be played for a fool, don't march to the front of a parade waving the "Play Me" flag.....

there is a vast difference between recognizing the scientific principle of evolution, (which explains why we have St. Bernards and Shitzus instead of only wolves) and saying that God didn't create the world)

this thread began with a post from McCain which clearly showed his support for the principle of intelligent design, which inarguably means a creator and not some theory of random origin......

so, while you may not like McCain or his politics, to pretend that this post should be cause for concern among Christians does in fact show that you are a fool and should be played as one.....

[Pale Rider]

While Christians agree on a Creator, they don't necessarily go where fundamentalists go, time wise or developmentally wise. I disagree, strongly, that Christians do not believe in evolution. Some do, some don't. Unless of course you are now stating that some divine inspiration has given you or evangelicals the power to know all?

OK Kathy, "YOU" believe as you want. "I", as a "Christian," will believe all was created, because that's what they Bible says, and not only that, "evolution" is a "theory," and you can believe that if want also.

It is of my opinion, you can only believe in one or the other, not both as you claim, from "your diving inspiration."

[Pale Rider]

well, Pale....I am sorry that you have lost your mind as well as your focus, but the question isn't whether Christians believe in evolution, the question was why Christians wouldn't believe in intelligent design.....

so your condescension is a bit premature, as it was your stupidity, not mine, that created the confusion......

Well pmp, you're inability to follow the thread is matched only by your ignorance.

[Abbey Marie]

Pale's point is that the Bible-believing Christian right is not going to support a candidate who believes in evolution from primates. I think that's true, though the fact that McCain thinks ID should be taught alongside is a mollifier. I'm not sure that this is really a significant Presidential issue, though :confused:

[Pale Rider]

Pale's point is that Bible-believing Christians are probably not going to support a candidate who believes in evolution from primates. I think that's true, though the fact that he thinks ID should be taught alongside is a mollifier. I'm not sure that this is really a significant Presidential issue, though :confused:

Abbey... was my explanation really that ambiguous, or are you a genius?

[hjmick]

OK Kathy, "YOU" believe as you want. "I", as a "Christian," will believe all was created, because that's what they Bible says, and not only that, "evolution" is a "theory," and you can believe that if want also.

It is of my opinion, you can only believe in one or the other, not both as you claim, from "your diving inspiration."

Pale, you seem to be dismissing the Theory of Evolution based on a definition of the word "theory" that is not accurate in the context of scientific discussion.

In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a guess, or is
unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.

There are three basic terms used by scientists to describe their work. Scientific Law, Hypothesis, and Theory.

Theory, in scientific terms, is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. A theory is closer to a scientific law than a hypothesis. One scientist cannot create a theory, he can create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law governs a single action, where a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena.

Some scientific theories include the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, the atomic theory, and the quantum theory. All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt. Scientists continue to tinker with the component hypotheses of each theory in an attempt to make them more elegant and concise, or to make them more all-encompassing. Theories can be tweaked, but they are seldom, if ever, entirely replaced.

To dismiss the theory of evolution out of hand by simply claiming it is a "theory" and nothing more, not worthy of any consideration or legitimacy is to be willfully ignorant of the scientific definition of the term, which is how it should be used when discussing the topic. To choose to inaccurately rely on the layman's definition of the word "theory" in an attempt to discredit the science during a discussion about Creation vs. Evolution is to be intellectually dishonest.

I respect your beliefs, truly I do, though I do not share them. There are times while contemplating the universe that I wonder if there is not room for both Creatioinsm and Evolution to coexist as truths.

I am sure that we could all debate this topic until we're blue in the face and not one mind would be changed. Your faith in your beliefs is strong, but my belief in the science of evolution is just as strong.

By the way, I was wrong. Gravity is not a theory, it is a scientific law.

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey... was my explanation really that ambiguous, or are you a genius?

:laugh2: Modesty prohibits me from answering, my friend.

[Pale Rider]

Pale, you seem to be dismissing the Theory of Evolution based on a definition of the word "theory" that is not accurate in the context of scientific discussion.

In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a guess, or is
unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.

You're actually going to try and feed me that line? You actually want me to believe that a "theory" should be accepted as the "truth?" You also want me to believe that a "scientist" would accept a "theory" as the "truth" without it as much as ever having been "proven?"

Holy shit hj... that's the craziest thing I've heard for a long, looooooong time, and no, I don't buy it AT ALL!

[hjmick]

You're actually going to try and feed me that line? You actually want me to believe that a "theory" should be accepted as the "truth?" You also want me to believe that a "scientist" would accept a "theory" as the "truth" without it as much as ever having been "proven?"

Holy shit hj... that's the craziest thing I've heard for a long, looooooong time, and no, I don't buy it AT ALL!

But that's just it, in the scientific community, scientific theory is accepted as being true. "Scientific theory" is
much different than just plain old "theory."

Look, I know we'll never agree on this topic, and that's fine. You have your beliefs and I have mine. My only point, ultimately, is that to have an accurate discussion the definitions of certain terms and words must be taken in context.

[PostmodernProphet]

OK Kathy, "YOU" believe as you want. "I", as a "Christian," will believe all was created, because that's what they Bible says, and not only that, "evolution" is a "theory," and you can believe that if want also.

It is of my opinion, you can only believe in one or the other, not both as you claim, from "your diving inspiration."

....did you just tell us we aren't Christians?......Don't tell God, maybe he didn't notice......

[PostmodernProphet]

Abbey... was my explanation really that ambiguous, or are you a genius?

your explanation was absent.....there is nothing in McCain's statement to say that he believes that humans evolved from primates, he simply states he believes in evolution.....which you do as well, unless you think that among the animals on the ark you would find leopards, tigers, lions, and cheetahs......you know as well as I do that the different species of "feline" evolved more recently than the flood.....

[Pale Rider]

But that's just it, in the scientific community, scientific theory is accepted as being true. "Scientific theory" is
much different than just plain old "theory."

Look, I know we'll never agree on this topic, and that's fine. You have your beliefs and I have mine. My only point, ultimately, is that to have an accurate discussion the definitions of certain terms and words must be taken in context.

Yes we'll just disagree. Because even though "you say so," I still don't believe I'd ever hear a scientist tell me that he'd accept an unproven theory as the truth.

Press on.

[Pale Rider]

your explanation was absent.....there is nothing in McCain's statement to say that he believes that humans evolved from primates, he simply states he believes in evolution.....which you do as well, unless you think that among the animals on the ark you would find leopards, tigers, lions, and cheetahs......you know as well as I do that the different species of "feline" evolved more recently than the flood.....

Oh yeah... my explanation was so absent Abbey knew exactly what I meant, and you didn't.

I'd shut up and quit embarrassing myself if I was you.

[Pale Rider]

....did you just tell us we aren't Christians?......Don't tell God, maybe he didn't notice......

This ought to be easy for you... show me where in the Bible God says he believes in the theory of evolution.

You're trying to appear witty and clever, but it's not working.

[Kathianne]

OK Kathy, "YOU" believe as you want. "I", as a "Christian," will believe all was created, because that's what they Bible says, and not only that, "evolution" is a "theory," and you can believe that if want also.

It is of my opinion, you can only believe in one or the other, not both as you claim, from "your diving inspiration."

So you are judging who is Christian and who is not?

[Kathianne]

Pale's point is that the Bible-believing Christian right is not going to support a candidate who believes in evolution from primates. I think that's true, though the fact that McCain thinks ID should be taught alongside is a mollifier. I'm not sure that this is really a significant Presidential issue, though :confused:

I would contend it should have zip to do with choosing a President, but obviously some disagree.

[Abbey Marie]

your explanation was absent.....there is nothing in McCain's statement to say that he believes that humans evolved from primates, he simply states he believes in evolution.....which you do as well, unless you think that among the animals on the ark you would find leopards, tigers, lions, and cheetahs......you know as well as I do that the different species of "feline" evolved more recently than the flood.....

Since McCain is simultaneously suggesting that "ID" be taught, it is only logical to assume he is speaking of evolution in terms of primates to human, as opposed to creationism.

[Pale Rider]

So you are judging who is Christian and who is not?
No, just putting forth what I believe, and I also believe I'm far from alone in that belief.


I would contend it should have zip to do with choosing a President, but obviously some disagree.
It "should" or "shouldn't?" I think you meant shouldn't. In any case, you know it does, and it does to me. I wouldn't vote for an atheist, or someone that believes my ancestors were apes.

It's all part of freedom of choice, and that's what makes this country great.

[Kathianne]

No, just putting forth what I believe, and I also believe I'm far from alone in that belief.


It "should" or "shouldn't?" I think you meant shouldn't. In any case, you know it does, and it does to me. I wouldn't vote for an atheist, or someone that believes my ancestors were apes.

It's all part of freedom of choice, and that's what makes this country great.

Actually PR, you did. You said 'Christians believe X', not so.

[Pale Rider]

Actually PR, you did. You said 'Christians believe X', not so.

Actually, if you want to nit pick even further, saying "Christians believe X" is 100% true. What I didn't say, and I think this is where you're trying to spin it, is I didn't say, "*all* Christians believe X". Where I think we get a little confused past that is I don't think you're quite a Christian if you believe in evolution. The belief that God created the heavens and the earth is just about the most important part of all Christian belief besides the belief the Christ was the son of God and rose from the dead. That's just my personal opinion. If you think otherwise, good for you.

I was speaking for myself, and all of those who believe as I do. You are speaking for yourself, and all of those who believe as you do, and that's perfectly fine both ways.

[Kathianne]

Actually, if you want to nit pick even further, saying "Christians believe X" is 100% true. What I didn't say, and I think this is where you're trying to spin it, is I didn't say, "*all* Christians believe X".

I was speaking for myself, and all of those who believe as I do. You are speaking for yourself, and all of those who believe as you do, and that's perfectly fine both ways.Ok, I can live with that. There is a division, which I wish there wasn't but it's but one of the problems the GOP is facing.

[Pale Rider]

Ok, I can live with that. There is a division, which I wish there wasn't but it's but one of the problems the GOP is facing.

Actually I think Christianity is one of things that holds our party together, and one of the reasons we don't have as many lunatic fringe moon bats as the left does, who has mainly people with no religion, other than me, me, me.

[Kathianne]

Actually I think Christianity is one of things that holds our party together, and one of the reasons we don't have as many lunatic fringe moon bats as the left does, who has mainly people with no religion, other than me, me, me.

I wish Christianity was one of the things holding us together, yet when when I read your posts, someone I respect say in effect, I'm not Christian, sorry, I don't feel connected.

[Pale Rider]

I wish Christianity was one of the things holding us together, yet when when I read your posts, someone I respect say in effect, I'm not Christian, sorry, I don't feel connected.

That is too bad, although the ones that agree with me would.

I didn't think you were a dire hard Republican anyway Kath... :dunno:

[PostmodernProphet]

This ought to be easy for you... show me where in the Bible God says he believes in the theory of evolution.

You're trying to appear witty and clever, but it's not working.

well I have no intention of making this easy on you.....you show ME somewhere in the Bible where YOU have the power or right to decide who is and who isn't a Christian.....I believe in the one true God, who was incarnate on earth and died on the cross to save me from my sins......and YOU are not going to tell ME that Christ's sacrifice didn't work because YOU don't like my views on science.....so shove that up the pale ass that sit's astride your horse.....

now, as far as God believing in evolution...since he created the danged thing, I expect he believes in it.....

now, answer my question,......how many species of feline do you expect were on the ark.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Since McCain is simultaneously suggesting that "ID" be taught, it is only logical to assume he is speaking of evolution in terms of primates to human, as opposed to creationism.

there is no reason to assume that at all.....

[Pale Rider]

well I have no intention of making this easy on you.....you show ME somewhere in the Bible where YOU have the power or right to decide who is and who isn't a Christian.....I believe in the one true God, who was incarnate on earth and died on the cross to save me from my sins......and YOU are not going to tell ME that Christ's sacrifice didn't work because YOU don't like my views on science.....so shove that up the pale ass that sit's astride your horse.....

now, as far as God believing in evolution...since he created the danged thing, I expect he believes in it.....

now, answer my question,......how many species of feline do you expect were on the ark.....

Do you ever listen to yourself pmp? I mean really... do you EVER listen to yourself? You are really a DUNCE! You are rapidly approaching missleman status as an insignificant MORON that no one needs to argue with, because if the garbage above complete with your lame ass insults in the best thing you have to argue about... you're one bored ignoramus.


Now... it is your contention... let me get this straight... give me second... kind of hard to type while LAUGHING so hard.... but.... you're saying... "GOD CREATED EVOLUTION?" HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Missileman]

Do you ever listen to yourself pmp? I mean really... do you EVER listen to yourself? You are really a DUNCE! You are rapidly approaching missleman status as an insignificant MORON that no one needs to argue with, because if the garbage above complete with your lame ass insults in the best thing you have to argue about... you're one bored ignoramus.


Now... it is your contention... let me get this straight... give me second... kind of hard to type while LAUGHING so hard.... but.... you're saying... "GOD CREATED EVOLUTION?" HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey fuckhead! How's it goin? Losing another argument I see. Had to break out the crayolas and start trying to change the subject.

[PostmodernProphet]

"GOD CREATED EVOLUTION?"

is that shocking to you, Pale?.....did you really think that there was something on this earth that God DIDN'T create?.....God created gravity, he created metamorphasis, he created photosynthesis, and he created the process of change that is defined as evolution.........if evolution didn't exist we couldn't cross breed animals and the horse you rode in on would look just like an ass.....

for the third time....how many species of feline were on the ark....was your horse on the ark as well as your ass?.....

now, before you look like an even bigger idiot, why don't you go back to small fonts for your apology

[Pale Rider]

is that shocking to you, Pale?.....did you really think that there was something on this earth that God DIDN'T create?.....God created gravity, he created metamorphasis, he created photosynthesis, and he created the process of change that is defined as evolution.........if evolution didn't exist we couldn't cross breed animals and the horse you rode in on would look just like an ass.....

now, before you look like an even bigger idiot, why don't you go back to small fonts for your apology

I'm going to just leave this alone. You've done such a great job of making yourself look like an idiot already, I don't have to say or do anything else.

[Pale Rider]

Hey fuckhead! How's it goin? Losing another argument I see. Had to break out the crayolas and start trying to change the subject.

Hey how's it been going slack jaw? I'm glad I made your day by mentioning your name. Join in... you and pmp can be the Bobbsey Twins that come from never, never land.

[Missileman]

I'm going to just leave this alone. You've done such a great job of making yourself look like an idiot already, I don't have to say or do anything else.

You are SO deluded! :lmao:

[Missileman]

Hey how's it been going slack jaw? I'm glad I made your day by mentioning your name. Join in... you and pmp can be the Bobbsey Twins that come from never, never land.

Adding to the already severe beating you have received would be nothing more than piling on.

[Pale Rider]

You are SO deluded! :lmao:


Adding to the already severe beating you have received would be nothing more than piling on.

Well you'll have to open your bag of tricks if you're going to be effective Mm. Just blow holing out some lame insult won't get you into this game. Get with it man. I expect more from you.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm going to just leave this alone. You've done such a great job of making yourself look like an idiot already, I don't have to say or do anything else.

if you leave without responding to the question about the species of feline on the ark you may was well admit you are a fool....I leave it up to you....

[Pale Rider]

if you leave without responding to the question about the species of feline on the ark you may was well admit you are a fool....I leave it up to you....

- - - - - :laugh: - - - - - the thread was about mccain admitting he believed in evolution. You've gone off on some wild, crazy, tangent about God creating evolution and now you're talking cats on the ark.... my Lord pmp... do you think you could make yourself out to sound like any bigger idiot than you already have if you TRIED?

Get a GRIP man... take a break... THINK!

[PostmodernProphet]

if you aren't prepared to claim that there were 37,000 species of beetles on the ark, then you had BETTER be prepared to admit the truth of evolution.....and if you can face that and NOT state that God created the process, you had better do some pretty hard thinking about the quality of your faith.....

[Pale Rider]

if you aren't prepared to claim that there were 37,000 species of beetles on the ark, then you had BETTER be prepared to admit the truth of evolution.....and if you can face that and NOT state that God created the process, you had better do some pretty hard thinking about the quality of your faith.....

OK... wait... first of all... explain what animals on the ark has to do with evolution. Maybe then we could get somewhere.

[PostmodernProphet]

1) there are 30k+ species of beetles in the world today....
2) if they have not evolved since the flood, they must have been on the ark

so, which was it?.....were they on the ark or did they evolve since the flood?

[Pale Rider]

1) there are 30k+ species of beetles in the world today....
2) if they have not evolved since the flood, they must have been on the ark

so, which was it?.....were they on the ark or did they evolve since the flood?

OK... just for sake of debate, and since there's no sarcasm or insults in your question and I appreciate that, say one species of beetle evolved. Wouldn't that still be the same beetle only slightly different? I mean what are you asking? Do you think say 10K beetles somehow evolved into 30K different beetles? How does change/evolution progress into a brand new species?

[PostmodernProphet]

say one species of beetle evolved

then evolution exists.....and if it exists God created it.....you may submit your apology now.....


Wouldn't that still be the same beetle only slightly different?

yes, a slightly different beetle is pretty much what a species is.....


Do you think say 10K beetles somehow evolved into 30K different beetles?

yes....after 1k beetle species evolved into 10k beetle species, which happened after 50 beetle species evolved into 1k beetle species, etc......

consider the alternative....even if beetles average only 1 cubic centimeter in size, you would have had over thirty cubic meters of beetles alone on the ark....oops, sixty....need two of each......gonna have to chuck the elephants overboard....need room for the roaches.....

[Pale Rider]

then evolution exists.....and if it exists God created it.....you may submit your apology now.....
Well you're a little ahead of yourself there pmp. I didn't say evolution existed. I said "for the sake of debate." K? Don't jump the gun. Try and stay with me here, and just maybe we can have a debate.


yes, a slightly different beetle is pretty much what a species is.....
Why?


yes....after 1k beetle species evolved into 10k beetle species, which happened after 50 beetle species evolved into 1k beetle species, etc......
That would mean that each beetle would have the same DNA, would it not? And if they all had the same DNA, how could they all be different?


consider the alternative....even if beetles average only 1 cubic centimeter in size, you would have had over thirty cubic meters of beetles alone on the ark....oops, sixty....need two of each......gonna have to chuck the elephants overboard....need room for the roaches.....
So how big was the ark? Do you have a picture of it? Do we know for sure that absolutely nothing on earth survived the great flood? If anything could, It would be a beetle. They float you know.

[PostmodernProphet]

That would mean that each beetle would have the same DNA, would it not? And if they all had the same DNA, how could they all be different?

no, Pale.....a different species would have a different DNA pattern.....in fact the DNA of each beetle would be different, just as my DNA is distinct from yours....that is why the police can use DNA evidence to identify criminals....

[Pale Rider]

no, Pale.....a different species would have a different DNA pattern.....in fact the DNA of each beetle would be different, just as my DNA is distinct from yours....that is why the police can use DNA evidence to identify criminals....

Correct. That's how they could trace me to my parents. Our DNA is the same, as is all those beetles coming from the same beetle. They'd all have the same DNA.

Now the DNA of a lion is different than mine, as is each different species of lion. But the DNA of man is all the same, as is all the DNA of the beetles.

Do you think those beetles could play Yellow Submarine?

[PostmodernProphet]

So how big was the ark? Do you have a picture of it? Do we know for sure that absolutely nothing on earth survived the great flood? If anything could, I would be a beetle. They float you know.

Genesis 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
{how it is that you could know whether or not I am a Christian and not know how big the ark is, is beyond me}

well, if beetles can float, how do you feel about felines....they hate water....

FAMILY FELIDAE[1]

* Subfamily Felinae
o Genus Felis
+ Chinese Mountain Cat (Felis bieti)
+ Jungle Cat (Felis chaus)
+ Pallas's Cat (Felis manul)
+ Sand Cat (Felis margarita)
+ Black-footed Cat (Felis nigripes)
+ Wild Cat (Felis silvestris)
# Domestic Cat (Felis silvestris catus)
o Genus Prionailurus
+ Leopard Cat (Prionailurus bengalensis)
+ Iriomote Cat (Prionailurus iriomotensis)
+ Flat-headed Cat (Prionailurus planiceps)
+ Rusty-spotted Cat (Prionailurus rubiginosus)
+ Fishing Cat (Prionailurus viverrinus)
o Genus Puma
+ Cougar (Puma concolor)
+ Jaguarundi (Puma yagouaroundi)
o Genus Acinonyx
+ Cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus)
o Genus Lynx
+ Canadian Lynx (Lynx canadensis)
+ Eurasian Lynx (Lynx lynx)
+ Iberian Lynx (Lynx pardinus)
+ Bobcat (Lynx rufus)
o Genus Leopardus
+ Pantanal (Leopardus braccatus)
+ Colocolo (Leopardus colocolo)
+ Geoffroy's Cat (Leopardus geoffroyi)
+ Kodkod (Leopardus guigna)
+ Andean Mountain Cat (Leopardus jacobitus)
+ Pampas Cat (Leopardus pajeros)
+ Ocelot (Leopardus pardalis)
+ Oncilla (Leopardus tigrinus)
+ Margay (Leopardus wiedii)
o Genus Leptailurus
+ Serval (Leptailurus serval)
o Genus Caracal
+ Caracal (Caracal caracal)
o Genus Profelis
+ African Golden Cat (Profelis aurata)
o Genus Catopuma
+ Bay Cat (Catopuma badia)
+ Asian Golden Cat (Catopuma temminckii)
o Genus Pardofelis
+ Marbled Cat (Pardofelis marmorata)
* Subfamily Pantherinae
o Genus Neofelis
+ Clouded Leopard (Neofelis nebulosa)
+ Bornean Clouded Leopard (Neofelis diardi)
o Genus Panthera
+ Lion (Panthera leo)
+ Jaguar (Panthera onca)
+ Leopard (Panthera pardus)
+ Tiger (Panthera tigris)
o Genus Uncia
+ Snow Leopard (Uncia uncia)

{Note: I have no idea how to calculate the cubic feet of "cats"......

[PostmodernProphet]

Correct. That's how they could trace me to my parents. Our DNA is the same, as is all those beetles coming from the same beetle. They'd all have the same DNA.

so you are saying science is wrong?.....there is really only one species of beetle?.....by the way the DNA is NOT the same.....no two people have identical DNA.....twins excepted....

[Pale Rider]

so you are saying science is wrong?.....there is really only one species of beetle?.....

No. Each different species of beetle will have a different DNA. That's where our debate leaves us. You contend that by theoretically evolving, somehow a beetles DNA will change, and I say it won't. But, maybe you could find an example of... ANYTHINGS DNA changing by evolution. That would support your argument.

Have a good time with that though, because first you'll have to prove evolution, and nobody has been able to do that to date. You're going to be one rich pot licker if you do... :laugh:

[PostmodernProphet]

No. Each different species of beetle will have a different DNA. That's where our debate leaves us. You contend that by theoretically evolving, somehow a beetles DNA will change, and I say it won't. But, maybe you could find an example of... ANYTHINGS DNA changing by evolution. That would support your argument.

Have a good time with that though, because first you'll have to prove evolution, and nobody has been able to do that to date. You're going to be one rich pot licker if you do... :laugh:


Pale....you still haven't addressed the original question.....if there really are 30k species of beetle in the world today, or 41 species of feline.....were they on the ark or did they evolve since.....or do you have a third alternative to propose....I want to hear your answer.....

[PostmodernProphet]

You contend that by theoretically evolving, somehow a beetles DNA will change

will you go so far as to admit that if two species of beetles or felines are incapable of breeding, that their DNA must be different?

[Pale Rider]

Pale....you still haven't addressed the original question.....if there really are 30k species of beetle in the world today, or 41 species of feline.....were they on the ark or did they evolve since.....or do you have a third alternative to propose....I want to hear your answer.....
Well you already know I don't believe in evolution. In fact nobody should. It's an uproven theory. So that leaves me believing there was an ark. How that all was accomplished, I don't know exactly. I wasn't there. Neither were you. So I don't know how much further we can go discussing that.


will you go so far as to admit that if two species of beetles or felines are incapable of breeding, that their DNA must be different?
Sure. But where do you get the idea that because two different cats, say a lion and a common house cat, can't breed, how does that create a new species?

[PostmodernProphet]

Well you already know I don't believe in evolution. In fact nobody should. It's an uproven theory. So that leaves me believing there was an ark. How that all was accomplished, I don't know exactly. I wasn't there. Neither were you. So I don't know how much further we can go discussing that.


Sure. But where do you get the idea that because two different cats, say a lion and a common house cat, can't breed, how does that create a new species?

because you seem to be arguing that all beetles have the same DNA (it would follow that all cats would have the same DNA as well)....they don't.....

take the situation of the birds that nested around a lake......as the population expanded and spread out around the lake, their offspring tended to change slightly.....by the time the strain that moved along the north side of the lake met the strain that moved along the south side of the lake their genes had moved so far apart that they could no longer mate.....if they could no longer mate, they were a different species....

the name that science gives to this testable and demonstrable process IS evolution and that no Christian can deny....

now that doesn't mean that God didn't create felines separate from canines or humans separate from apes and for a Christian to state they believe in the process of evolution does not mean they do not believe in a creating God (and certainly doesn't mean they aren't Christians)....

I believe in creation, I believe in an ark, and I believe in evolution.....and most firmly, I believe you are terribly wrong to accuse anyone of not being a Christian simply because they don't agree with your views on science!......

[Pale Rider]

because you seem to be arguing that all beetles have the same DNA (it would follow that all cats would have the same DNA as well)....they don't.....
No, each different kind of cat, Siamese, Tabby, Calico, will all have different DNA, but within their kind, they'll all have the same.


take the situation of the birds that nested around a lake......as the population expanded and spread out around the lake, their offspring tended to change slightly.....by the time the strain that moved along the north side of the lake met the strain that moved along the south side of the lake their genes had moved so far apart that they could no longer mate.....if they could no longer mate, they were a different species....
Well this is a nice story, but it's not true. DNA does not mutate. It has never been seen mutating. It has never been proven to mutate. So you're just kind of making stuff up and hoping I'll buy it. Nope. Gotta have proof.


the name that science gives to this testable and demonstrable process IS evolution and that no Christian can deny....
Hey, ya know what? Since you seem to think evolution has been proven, but there isn't any proof ever been given, you better contact the scientific community real fast, because you're going to be one rich dude when you prove to them that evolution is real.


now that doesn't mean that God didn't create felines separate from canines or humans separate from apes and for a Christian to state they believe in the process of evolution does not mean they do not believe in a creating God (and certainly doesn't mean they aren't Christians)....
Well, that is your opinion PmP, and your opinion and mine are different. To me, and me being a Christian, it is utterly impossible to believe that God created all, and then turn around and say, yeah well I also believe my ancestors were monkeys. Just doesn't work. Shit or get off the pot.


I believe in creation, I believe in an ark, and I believe in evolution.....and most firmly, I believe you are terribly wrong to accuse anyone of not being a Christian simply because they don't agree with your views on science!......
I didn't say someone wasn't a Christian if they believed in evolution. That is spin, and a lie. Lets go over what I DID say again shall we? I said that I, as a Christian, believe that if you are a Christian, and believe that God created all, then "I believe" it is utterly impossible for you, as a Christian, to believe in evolution. That is my belief. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm not judging anybody or labeling them this or that. I'm merely stating what I believe, and what I believe comes straight from the Bible, not some laboratory.

So what this whole debate boils down to in a nut shell is, you believe someone can believe in creation AND evolution at the same time, and I believe that you can't.

I guess this will have to end with the old we'll have to agree to disagree thing.

[PostmodernProphet]

yeah well I also believe my ancestors were monkeys

I hate to have to point out that you are an idiot, Pale, but that is the exact opposite of what I have posted on this thread.....are you being stubborn or did you not read the posts?

[PostmodernProphet]

I didn't say someone wasn't a Christian if they believed in evolution.

of course you did....it's why we are having this discussion.....and you just did it again.....you have said it is impossible for me to believe in evolution and be a Christian.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I guess this will have to end with the old we'll have to agree to disagree thing.

except that your position has several obvious errors.....

1) you are unable to explain the absence of all species of creatures on the ark....
2) you fail to deal with the reality of speciation that occurs today...
3) you have completely misunderstood DNA and how it works in the breeding process....

[PostmodernProphet]

Well this is a nice story, but it's not true.

???....actually, it is.....it's called ring speciation....and green warblers are one example of it....

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.html

[Pale Rider]

I hate to have to point out that you are an idiot, Pale, but that is the exact opposite of what I have posted on this thread.....are you being stubborn or did you not read the posts?
Well there we were going along without calling names, and you have to ruin it.


of course you did....it's why we are having this discussion.....and you just did it again.....you have said it is impossible for me to believe in evolution and be a Christian.....
No, I didn't. I stated what I believe. I made no judgements. You're extrapolating something that isn't there to suit yourself.


except that your position has several obvious errors.....

1) you are unable to explain the absence of all species of creatures on the ark....
2) you fail to deal with the reality of speciation that occurs today...
3) you have completely misunderstood DNA and how it works in the breeding process....
1) Don't have to. Just believe the ark story or not. Makes no difference to the point of the thread.
2) You've failed to prove anything, all you've done is tell nice stories.
3) Again, I know as much as you do about DNA, and you've done nothing to back up your wild assertions about DNA mutating, which it doesn't. You need to do some catching up.


???....actually, it is.....it's called ring speciation....and green warblers are one example of it....

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/irwin.html
There's one massive flaw in that article, in that it's based entirely on an unproven theory, evolution. It's worthless. Find me something concrete, something that's been proven. All these fairy tales and speculation and theories aren't worth squat, and frankly, you parading around in here blabbing about as if it were all fact is a joke.

[PostmodernProphet]

No, I didn't. I stated what I believe. I made no judgements. You're extrapolating something that isn't there to suit yourself.

lol right....you "believe" it isn't possible for me to be a Christian, but you aren't being judgmental.....

[PostmodernProphet]

1) Don't have to. Just believe the ark story or not. Makes no difference to the point of the thread.

sure it does....if you believe the ark story you cannot also believe that all the species in existence now were in existence then.....

[PostmodernProphet]

something that's been proven

are you pretending the green warblers do not in fact exist?.....there are photographs of them on the internet....are you claiming they were photoshopped?.....

here is some more proof....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/images/l_052_05_l.jpg

[PostmodernProphet]

3) Again, I know as much as you do about DNA, and you've done nothing to back up your wild assertions about DNA mutating, which it doesn't.

DNA doesn't "mutate" that is your erroneous depiction.....no two creatures have identical DNA patterns....if two creatures mate, their offspring will have DNA that is similar but not identical......if their offspring never mate again with offspring with DNA patterns that they did not pass on, that genetic coding will never again show up in that strain...if two strains of offspring are physically isolated, such as in ring speciation they will gradually become more and more unlike each other....given a large enough geographic barrier they can eventually become so unlike each other that they can no longer breed....this is what happened to the green warblers.....a new species was formed....one which was not on the ark.....and it happened within your lifetime....

[Pale Rider]

lol right....you "believe" it isn't possible for me to be a Christian, but you aren't being judgmental.....
No... I make no judgement at all whether or not you're a Christian. All I'm saying is if you "claim" to be a Christian, and then "claim" you believe in the theory of evolution as fact, then what you believe is seriously flawed. I guess that would apply to anyone, whether they claim they're a Christian or not.


sure it does....if you believe the ark story you cannot also believe that all the species in existence now were in existence then.....
Well, you can say that, but that's far from the truth, and totally lacks any proof.


are you pretending the green warblers do not in fact exist?.....there are photographs of them on the internet....are you claiming they were photoshopped?.....
This is a theory. If the little green guy actually did "evolve," by "walking around the lake," it would be the biggest story of all time. "PROOF OF EVOLUTION FINALLY FOUND!!!" But, that's not the case. Something happened to the lizards other than evolution.


DNA doesn't "mutate" that is your erroneous depiction.....no two creatures have identical DNA patterns....if two creatures mate, their offspring will have DNA that is similar but not identical......if their offspring never mate again with offspring with DNA patterns that they did not pass on, that genetic coding will never again show up in that strain...if two strains of offspring are physically isolated, such as in ring speciation they will gradually become more and more unlike each other....given a large enough geographic barrier they can eventually become so unlike each other that they can no longer breed....this is what happened to the green warblers.....a new species was formed....one which was not on the ark.....and it happened within your lifetime....
The DNA of man was recently traced back to who they believe was of the first people ever on earth, from whom we all descended. That's DNA. If you're a camel, you'll always be a camel. You will not change into something else by walking a different direction around some lake.

[PostmodernProphet]

Lord in heaven, please help the ignorant among us.....

[Pale Rider]

Lord in heaven, please help the ignorant among us.....

Amen.

[Hagbard Celine]

Senator John McCain personally believes in evolution, but he takes a classically liberal view which says that ideas should not be hidden from students--

"From a personal standpoint, I believe in evolution," Mr. McCain said.

I would prefer that Senator McCain explain what he means by "evolution"--mere "change through time," or the full-blown Neo-Darwinian claim that all of the complexity of life arose via random mutations coupled with blind natural selection. But what Senator McCain personally thinks about ID is much less important than what he would do as a government official. Senator McCain takes a classically liberal view on education, and the freedom of students to learn. He points out that students should not be sheltered from ideas just because they are controversial. While the article inappropriately claims that intelligent design claims that "God had a hand in creation," it's refreshing to hear that classical liberals like McCain still exist.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/07...dont_cens.html
__________________What's "inappropriate" about saying creationists believe God created everything when it's true?

[Pale Rider]

What's "inappropriate" about saying creationists believe God created everything when it's true?

Read the thread Hag, don't come in here six pages later and expect me to recap for you. Your question has already been addressed.

[5stringJeff]

[B]
Senator McCain's Take: Don't Censor Intelligent Design

After his notorious "campaign finance reform," McCain has no room to complain about censorship.