The best case for rejecting religion

[typomaniac]

Note: I'm not referring explicitly to Jesus or Christianity anywhere. My argument applies to all forms of spiritual, faith-based, belief, Western or otherwise.

Throughout human history, every religion has attempted to provide comfort to its followers by ascribing some kind of meaning to life. And all this time, the true answer to "What is the meaning of life?" has been something of a holy grail to many, many people.

The problem is that, not only is the question un-answerable, it's actually meaningless.

Trying to ascertain a meaning to life is like trying to ascertain whether Tuesday is blue. The two concepts simply don't have enough in common to allow any kind of basis for comparison. The most that anyone can say with any degree of certainty is that "life [for you personally] is what you [personally] make of it."

Of course, that belief isn't incompatible with religious doctrine: it just renders all that dogma unimportant. Nor does the rejection of religion based on this belief have anything to do with nihilism, because it does not in any way support the idea that no human action is preferable to any other. After all, there is plenty of objective evidence to indicate that groups of people are better off when they cooperate than when it's every man for himself.

The bottom line is that, if we hold to the goal of improving ourselves and our lives, we simply don't need the comfort of a supreme being, a concept of an afterlife, or any other mythos. Life is nothing more than what we ourselves make of it. No god can help us or stand in our way.

[manu1959]

why is it important that religion be rejected......

if we follow your advice and reject religion which life philospohy should replace the religion you reject.....

[typomaniac]

why is it important that religion be rejected......Assuming that your goal is to improve your life, religion itself is not likely to help you attain that goal.


if we follow your advice and reject religion which life philospohy should replace the religion you reject.....As I said above: to improve yourself and your life.

[manu1959]

Assuming that your goal is to improve your life, religion itself is not likely to help you attain that goal.

As I said above: to improve yourself and your life.

so you claim for "why is it important that religion be rejected"......is because it will improve my life.....what about all the people that follow religion who's lives are improved....

my question was....

if we follow your advice and reject religion which life philospohy should replace the religion you reject.....

you did not give me a life philosophy to replace religion with......what do i use or look to to help guide me in my daily choices....

[typomaniac]

so you claim for "why is it important that religion be rejected"......is because it will improve my life.....what about all the people that follow religion who's lives are improved....I am not denying that religion is a source of comfort for many people. Some of these people are able to improve their lives because they have this extra comfort, but that's not true of everyone who observes any given religion.


my question was....

if we follow your advice and reject religion which life philospohy should replace the religion you reject.....

you did not give me a life philosophy to replace religion with......what do i use or look to to help guide me in my daily choices....It's not clear to me why you think that the goal of improving your life is not ALSO a life philosophy. You can certainly make your daily choices based on the question: "Which decision is likely to make my life better, and to what degree?"

[Chessplayer]

what do i use or look to to help guide me in my daily choices....

I figure people are intelligent enough to figure that out on their own.

[PostmodernProphet]

It's not clear to me why you think that the goal of improving your life is not ALSO a life philosophy

lol, and it puzzles me why you think it is any different from trying to find "meaning" in your life.......

[manu1959]

I am not denying that religion is a source of comfort for many people. Some of these people are able to improve their lives because they have this extra comfort, but that's not true of everyone who observes any given religion.

so if religion gives a majority of people that embrace it comfort and the ability to improve their lives that would make religion a good....it would seem to me religion does that....given more people embrace it then leave it....


It's not clear to me why you think that the goal of improving your life is not ALSO a life philosophy. You can certainly make your daily choices based on the question: "Which decision is likely to make my life better, and to what degree?"

so if i choose to improve my life and i have been using religion to do so and you say i should reject religion because there is a better philosophy which is reject religion and your life will get better but you can not articulate the philosophy other than to say improve your life....hey dude i am already improving my life....

[typomaniac]

lol, and it puzzles me why you think it is any different from trying to find "meaning" in your life.......

Well, if you end up concluding that the only "meaning" your life has is to bow down to some altar, then you don't have any incentive to improve, do you?


so if religion gives a majority of people that embrace it comfort and the ability to improve their lives that would make religion a good....it would seem to me religion does that....given more people embrace it then leave it....That depends on whether you're embracing religion because the belief itself gives you the opportunity to improve your life, or whether you're embracing it just because Mom and Dad have.

[manu1959]

Well, if you end up concluding that the only "meaning" your life has is to bow down to some altar, then you don't have any incentive to improve, do you?

That depends on whether you're embracing religion because the belief itself gives you the opportunity to improve your life, or whether you're embracing it just because Mom and Dad have.

so if one chooses reiligion because it improves ones life that would be a good thing.....

[typomaniac]

so if one chooses reiligion because it improves ones life that would be a good thing.....

Assuming it really does improve one's life, sure. However, IMO most people who choose religion are hoping (unconsciously, perhaps) that it will lull them into laziness, or into a false sense of complacency. Both of which can be excused by a misplaced faith in someone or something.

[manu1959]

Assuming it really does improve one's life, sure. However, IMO most people who choose religion are hoping (unconsciously, perhaps) that it will lull them into laziness, or into a false sense of complacency. Both of which can be excused by a misplaced faith in someone or something.

so then it would seem that you beileve that the point of life is to improve ones life and that one should do thing and make choices to improve ones life and if one choose religion and it improves their life ....which you now claim is possible..... then your claim that rejecting religion would improve ones life is false.......

damn dude you are 0-2 and i voted for bush 4 times....

[avatar4321]

I reject the premise that religion is simply meant to provide meaning in our lives. It does provide meaning, but that is a result and not the purpose of it.

Religion, like science, is a question for the truth. It's designed to help people know and understand God. And by understanding Our Father in Heaven, we learn who we are and what we are capable of becoming.

The difference between religion and science is simply the method of discerning the truth. The science do so through observation. Religion does it through revelation. Without revelation, without the ability to learn about God from the source, no man can know any truth about God.

The problem is there are alot of people who want to dismiss revelation without giving it an opportunity. The Scriptures set out a pattern that show us how to search for and reach out to God. And here, like in science, you come to learn through experience by living the word.

[typomaniac]

so then it would seem that you beileve that the point of life is to improve ones life and that one should do thing and make choices to improve ones life and if one choose religion and it improves their life ....which you now claim is possible..... then your claim that rejecting religion would improve ones life is false.......

damn dude you are 0-2 and i voted for bush 4 times....
Damn, dude, it's too bad there isn't an Olympic event for conclusion jumping. :laugh:

My claim was only that religion does not seem to improve most people's lives. (No, I can't prove this; it's just my opinion.) And therefore, if it doesn't improve your life, it's a waste of time. Time which would be better spent on something that does improve your life.

[typomaniac]

I reject the premise that religion is simply meant to provide meaning in our lives. It does provide meaning, but that is a result and not the purpose of it.

Religion, like science, is a question for the truth. It's designed to help people know and understand God. And by understanding Our Father in Heaven, we learn who we are and what we are capable of becoming.

The difference between religion and science is simply the method of discerning the truth. The science do so through observation. Religion does it through revelation. Without revelation, without the ability to learn about God from the source, no man can know any truth about God.

The problem is there are alot of people who want to dismiss revelation without giving it an opportunity. The Scriptures set out a pattern that show us how to search for and reach out to God. And here, like in science, you come to learn through experience by living the word.

Without independent proof of God's existence, how can you be sure that the revelation you think you're experiencing is genuine?

[manu1959]

Damn, dude, it's too bad there isn't an Olympic event for conclusion jumping. :laugh:

My claim was only that religion does not seem to improve most people's lives. (No, I can't prove this; it's just my opinion.) And therefore, if it doesn't improve your life, it's a waste of time. Time which would be better spent on something that does improve your life.

scroll up to the op dude....

your claim was reject religion and improve your life.....

now you have retreated to some....

so that would mean if i accept religion it is possible i could improve my life....

damn dude .... it would seem you have pulled a TM....and kicked your own ass

[typomaniac]

scroll up to the op dude....

your claim was reject religion and improve your life.....

now you have retreated to some....

so that would mean if i accept religion it is possible i could improve my life....

damn dude .... it would seem you have pulled a TM....and kicked your own ass

I haven't retreated at all: I said "most," not "some." All that means is that I'd put better odds on someone improving their life by rejecting religion than on improving it by accepting religion. Just play the numbers.

[manu1959]

I haven't retreated at all: I said "most," not "some." All that means is that I'd put better odds on someone improving their life by rejecting religion than on improving it by accepting religion. Just play the numbers.

so you admit that if one chooses religion then it is possible that they could improve their life.....

[typomaniac]

so you admit that if one chooses religion then it is possible that they could improve their life.....

I already did, remember? It's just that the odds are against them.

[manu1959]

I already did, remember? It's just that the odds are against them.

just confirming i understood you correctly.....so if i belive in religion and it is making my life better.....why would i choose to reject it to make my life better....

i mean your opening argument was reject religion and make your life better.....

[typomaniac]

just confirming i understood you correctly.....so if i belive in religion and it is making my life better.....why would i choose to reject it to make my life better....

i mean your opening argument was reject religion and make your life better.....

If you and everyone you know are absolutely certain that your belief in religion is making your life better, and nothing else you could do with your worship time could make your life better still...then you're one of those rare phenomena called the exception that proves the rule.

I doubt that all these conditions are true for more than a minority of religious individuals.

[manu1959]

If you and everyone you know are absolutely certain that your belief in religion is making your life better, and nothing else you could do with your worship time could make your life better still...then you're one of those rare phenomena called the exception that proves the rule.

I doubt that all these conditions are true for more than a minority of religious individuals.

If you and everyone you know are absolutely certain that your belief in your self is making your life better, and nothing else you could do with your self worship time could make your life better still...then you're one of those rare phenomena called the exception that proves the rule.

I doubt that all these conditions are true for more than a minority of self indulgent individuals.

thanks dude that was fun......

[typomaniac]

If you and everyone you know are absolutely certain that your belief in your self is making your life better, and nothing else you could do with your self worship time could make your life better still...then you're one of those rare phenomena called the exception that proves the rule.

I doubt that all these conditions are true for more than a minority of self indulgent individuals.

thanks dude that was fun......
Now you're just being pissy and you know it.

If you want to appeal to emotion, that's fine, but I will only be addressing the logical arguments in this thread.

Thanks, dude. That was fun... :rolleyes:

[manu1959]

Now you're just being pissy and you know it.

If you want to appeal to emotion, that's fine, but I will only be addressing the logical arguments in this thread.

Thanks, dude. That was fun... :rolleyes:

not being pissy....just helping you proove that there is symetry to your claim....actually you proved it...i just asked the questions....

sorry dude....criminal defense attorneys can be like that.....

[avatar4321]

Without independent proof of God's existence, how can you be sure that the revelation you think you're experiencing is genuine?

by their fruits ye shall know them.

[typomaniac]

by their fruits ye shall know them.
Know whom?

[typomaniac]

not being pissy....just helping you proove that there is symetry to your claim....actually you proved it...i just asked the questions....

sorry dude....criminal defense attorneys can be like that.....

Only there's a fatal flaw in your perceived "symmetry:" that belief in oneself is an absolute necessity for improving one's life. (Without it, you have no self-esteem and by extension no reason to improve.) The same cannot be said of religion.

Sorry, dude. Maybe I should've been a criminal defense attorney. :laugh:

[manu1959]

Only there's a fatal flaw in your perceived "symmetry:" that belief in oneself is an absolute necessity for improving one's life. (Without it, you have no self-esteem and by extension no reason to improve.) The same cannot be said of religion.

Sorry, dude. Maybe I should've been a criminal defense attorney. :laugh:

so your premise is that religious people have no belief in oneself and therefore can not improve.....

looks like all you clients are gettin the needle

[typomaniac]

so your premise is that religious people have no belief in oneself and therefore can not improve.....

looks like all you clients are gettin the needle

Nope; false dilemma from manu (again :cool: ). At most you can say that being religious doesn't automatically mean that one has a belief in oneself.

[typomaniac]

What, no more rebuttals from DP's holy constituency? I'm shocked. :)