Voter Id Law Is Nothing But A Scam

[stephanie]

You have to wonder why the Democrats are SO AGAINST people having to show proper ID to vote...Sheesh I got my son a state ID when he was six....:poke:

Sun Jan 13, 5:51 PM ET


If the U.S. Supreme Court upholds Indiana's harsh voter ID law, as its justices seem poised to do, hundreds of thousands of black Americans should march in protest. So should hundreds of thousands of Latino Americans. Native Americans, too. Political activists from across the ethnic spectrum should convene the biggest political demonstration since the historic March on Washington in 1963.

Where is Al Sharpton when a genuinely critical issue comes along? Where's Jesse Jackson?

The GOP-led campaign to pass stringent voter ID laws is a greater injustice than the prosecutions of the Jena Six, more significant than the incarceration of Michael Vick, more damaging than the insulting rants of Don Imus. This is a frankly brazen effort to block the votes of thousands of people of color who might have the temerity to vote for Democrats. And it's un-American.

As happened in several states, including Georgia, the then-GOP-dominated Indiana legislature pushed through a rigid law in 2005 requiring state-sponsored photo IDs at the ballot box. While the Republican spin machine has worked mightily to portray this as an effort to curb voter fraud, it is no such thing. There has never -- never -- been a single case of "voter impersonation" at the ballot box, with a fake voter using an electric bill or phone bill to pretend to be a valid voter.

read the rest..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucas/20080113/cm_ucas/voteridlawisnothingbutascam

[Classact]

You have to wonder why the Democrats are SO AGAINST people having to show proper ID to vote...Sheesh I got my son a state ID when he was six....:poke:

Sun Jan 13, 5:51 PM ET


If the U.S. Supreme Court upholds Indiana's harsh voter ID law, as its justices seem poised to do, hundreds of thousands of black Americans should march in protest. So should hundreds of thousands of Latino Americans. Native Americans, too. Political activists from across the ethnic spectrum should convene the biggest political demonstration since the historic March on Washington in 1963.

Where is Al Sharpton when a genuinely critical issue comes along? Where's Jesse Jackson?

The GOP-led campaign to pass stringent voter ID laws is a greater injustice than the prosecutions of the Jena Six, more significant than the incarceration of Michael Vick, more damaging than the insulting rants of Don Imus. This is a frankly brazen effort to block the votes of thousands of people of color who might have the temerity to vote for Democrats. And it's un-American.

As happened in several states, including Georgia, the then-GOP-dominated Indiana legislature pushed through a rigid law in 2005 requiring state-sponsored photo IDs at the ballot box. While the Republican spin machine has worked mightily to portray this as an effort to curb voter fraud, it is no such thing. There has never -- never -- been a single case of "voter impersonation" at the ballot box, with a fake voter using an electric bill or phone bill to pretend to be a valid voter.

read the rest..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucas/20080113/cm_ucas/voteridlawisnothingbutascamVoter fraud is very, very, very hard to prove because the federal standard doesn't require the presentation of an ID to register to vote... every illegal alien may register if they like if they have a water bill or electric bill with their name on it. Street people, homeless can be rounded up and offered a reward to vote for a candidate... a Democrat can write the persons new name on their hand with an ink pen and then reward them after they vote.

I was too young to vote in WV when my family moved to NJ but a few years ago I decided to register to vote absentee in WV and the county clerk sent me a change of party card to sign... I guess someone had voted Democratic with my name over the last fourty years.

[red states rule]

Voter fraud is very, very, very hard to prove because the federal standard doesn't require the presentation of an ID to register to vote... every illegal alien may register if they like if they have a water bill or electric bill with their name on it. Street people, homeless can be rounded up and offered a reward to vote for a candidate... a Democrat can write the persons new name on their hand with an ink pen and then reward them after they vote.

I was too young to vote in WV when my family moved to NJ but a few years ago I decided to register to vote absentee in WV and the county clerk sent me a change of party card to sign... I guess someone had voted Democratic with my name over the last fourty years.

If not for fraud, Dems would find it harder to win elections - no wonder they are opposed to folks showing a photo ID to vote

[JohnDoe]

Do you want to stop legitimate American citizens from voting? Do you want to make it harder for citizens to vote?

Or do you want to stop voter fraud?

That's my question to all of you... do you give a crap about ligitimate American citizens being disenfranchised?

looks like you all don't give a flying hoot, actually it looks like you WANT to disenfranchise legitimate citizens from voting because they are primarily LEGITIMATE CITIZENS voting for Democrats.... ? and that....well, that is pretty low, actually, lower than low, to me.

jd

[red states rule]

Do you want to stop legitimate American citizens from voting? Do you want to make it harder for citizens to vote?

Or do you want to stop voter fraud?

That's my question to all of you... do you give a crap about ligitimate American citizens being disenfranchised?

looks like you all don't give a flying hoot, actually it looks like you WANT to disenfranchise legitimate citizens from voting because they are primarily LEGITIMATE CITIZENS voting for Democrats.... ? and that....well, that is pretty low, actually, lower than low, to me.

jd

JD, what is the big deal over folks showing a photo ID before they vote? I know it would make it harder for the dead people who vote for Dems harder to have their vote counted, but for the rest of us it would ensure only legal citizens vote in our elections

[retiredman]

JD, what is the big deal over folks showing a photo ID before they vote? I know it would make it harder for the dead people who vote for Dems harder to have their vote counted, but for the rest of us it would ensure only legal citizens vote in our elections

I don't have a problem with showing a photo ID for voting as long as those citizens who do not have a photo ID for any other purpose are provided them free of charge. If you make someone pay for an ID whose only purpose is voting, it is a poll tax. period.

Again...if voter fraud is so huge of a problem for the GOP, why wouldn't repubilcans jump at the chance to control it for a relatively tiny increase in the budget??

[theHawk]

What kind of people have no official ID of any kind? Its pretty amazing how the libs are so dead set against this. Makes me wonder if voter fraud is much more rampant than anyone suspects.

[PostmodernProphet]

Do you want to stop legitimate American citizens from voting? Do you want to make it harder for citizens to vote?

if they are liberals?....yes......who else would object to being identifiable?.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Again...if voter fraud is so huge of a problem for the GOP, why wouldn't repubilcans jump at the chance to control it for a relatively tiny increase in the budget??

what plan do you have to control voter fraud with a tiny budget increase?......

[JohnDoe]

What kind of people have no official ID of any kind? Its pretty amazing how the libs are so dead set against this. Makes me wonder if there is voter fraud is much more rampant than anyone suspects.

Millions upon millions of American citizens do not have a pictured government id.

Anyone who does not drive, does NOT have a pictured gvt id.

my mother in law did not have a pictured gvt id until she learned to drive in her mid 60's....

HOWEVER, illegals DO HAVE gvt pictured id's if they got their drivers licence.

A PICTURED gvt id at the polls DOES NOT stop voter fraud, but it does stop born American citizens who never learned to drive, from voting....

Senior Citizens
City dwellers
American Indians
the Poor....

jd

[theHawk]

Millions upon millions of American citizens do not have a pictured government id.

Anyone who does not drive, does NOT have a pictured gvt id.

my mother in law did not have a pictured gvt id until she learned to drive in her mid 60's....

HOWEVER, illegals DO HAVE gvt pictured id's if they got their drivers licence.

A PICTURED gvt id at the polls DOES NOT stop voter fraud, but it does stop born American citizens who never learned to drive, from voting....

Senior Citizens
City dwellers
American Indians
the Poor....

jd

I guess none of them ever cash or write a check either?

"Poor people" and American Indians don't ever buy liquor either? :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

if they are liberals?....yes......who else would object to being identifiable?.......

Anyone, who is not a Nazi?

"Papers Please"

I can hear it now.....

learn about history....

you really want us all at any moment to have to "show papers" of our legitimacy like the Nazi's required?

NOT ME!

[JohnDoe]

I guess none of them ever cash or write a check either? "Poor people" and American Indians don't ever buy liquor either? :laugh2:

They HAVE their birth certificates, THEY HAVE their social security cards, some even HAVE their credit cards, and they HAVE their utility bills to show where they live..., and they HAVE checking accounts...

ALL WITHOUT A PICTURED GVT ID.....

Laugh all ya want....but YOU are trying to disenfranchise AMERICAN CITIZENS from voting and that is wrong.

jd

[darin]

A PICTURED gvt id at the polls DOES NOT stop voter fraud, but it does stop born American citizens who never learned to drive, from voting....

Senior Citizens
City dwellers
American Indians
the Poor....

jd


When I was 15 I got a "State ID Card" so I could get a job. (shrug). You're creating a problem that doesn't exist because your party counts on the votes of illegals and dead folk.

[jimnyc]

Millions upon millions of American citizens do not have a pictured government id.

Source?


Anyone who does not drive, does NOT have a pictured gvt id.

I personally know quite a few people that don't drive that still have picture ID's. They do so because it's so necessary in this day and age. How do you figure that anyone that doesn't drive doesn't have a picture ID? You need one for a passport, many establishments require photo ID for CC purchases, entry to many places...


A PICTURED gvt id at the polls DOES NOT stop voter fraud, but it does stop born American citizens who never learned to drive, from voting....

It may not stop all of it but I can almost guarantee you that it will stop and/or prevent some of it. Is that not a good enough reason for you to work on new ways to prevent fraud?

[Classact]

Do you want to stop legitimate American citizens from voting? Do you want to make it harder for citizens to vote?

Or do you want to stop voter fraud?

That's my question to all of you... do you give a crap about ligitimate American citizens being disenfranchised?

looks like you all don't give a flying hoot, actually it looks like you WANT to disenfranchise legitimate citizens from voting because they are primarily LEGITIMATE CITIZENS voting for Democrats.... ? and that....well, that is pretty low, actually, lower than low, to me.

jdIn Puerto Rico when you register to vote you are issued a plastic voter ID, I would dare to say every adult Puerto Rican citizen has a photo ID because you can't survive without one. How can a person not have a photo ID? Anyway, voting is a very big deal here and 90-97% of the adult population votes and the voter card is hole punched when you vote to assure you don't go to another voting station and try to vote again. We don't even have illegal aliens here but people can cause riots if they think there is voter fraud.

Leading up to elections the different parties have rallies and create convoys of several hundred cars with party flags on each car... people are hanging out of car windows or standing in the back of pickup trucks... Half of the cars have police federal systems and blare sirens as they enter a community and there is always one truck with four speakers that are egiht feet high blaring the message.. it is loud enough to hear the whole thing as they pass through a subdivision... they do it from 7:00AM to midnight for weeks leading up to the election on weekends... those that don't attend the rallies rarely go out on weekends because a 15 minute trip can turn into a two hour wait as a convoy turns around with police help.

What kind of US citizen has no photo ID? How did they get a SSAN? How do they plan to get Social Security or Medicare when they are old? This is a stupid way of supporting illegal voting to argue that some valid citizens don't have an ID... only a Democrat can come up with bullshit like this!

[JohnDoe]

In Puerto Rico when you register to vote you are issued a plastic voter ID, I would dare to say every adult Puerto Rican citizen has a photo ID because you can't survive without one. How can a person not have a photo ID? Anyway, voting is a very big deal here and 90-97% of the adult population votes and the voter card is hole punched when you vote to assure you don't go to another voting station and try to vote again. We don't even have illegal aliens here but people can cause riots if they think there is voter fraud.

Leading up to elections the different parties have rallies and create convoys of several hundred cars with party flags on each car... people are hanging out of car windows or standing in the back of pickup trucks... Half of the cars have police federal systems and blare sirens as they enter a community and there is always one truck with four speakers that are egiht feet high blaring the message.. it is loud enough to hear the whole thing as they pass through a subdivision... they do it from 7:00AM to midnight for weeks leading up to the election on weekends... those that don't attend the rallies rarely go out on weekends because a 15 minute trip can turn into a two hour wait as a convoy turns around with police help.

What kind of US citizen has no photo ID? How did they get a SSAN? How do they plan to get Social Security or Medicare when they are old? This is a stupid way of supporting illegal voting to argue that some valid citizens don't have an ID... only a Democrat can come up with bullshit like this!

PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DRIVE


DO NOT have a gvt picture ID.

Got that? Why is that so hard to understand Classact?

BTW, i lived Puerto Rico for 3 years, where abouts are you?

jd

[LiberalNation]

This is a stupid way of supporting illegal voting to argue that some valid citizens don't have an ID... only a Democrat can come up with bullshit like this!
Some valid citizens don't have a photo id. Many illegals do.

[jimnyc]

PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DRIVE


DO NOT have a gvt picture ID.

Got that? Why is that so hard to understand Classact?

BTW, i lived Puerto Rico for 3 years, where abouts are you?

jd

That's absolute bullshit! How and why are they still offering them then? There are government agencies across the nation that will provide a photo ID to those without drivers licenses.

[LiberalNation]

There are government agencies across the nation that will provide a photo ID to those without drivers licenses.

There are, but you really think people are gona pay to get them just to vote when they've always voted before without one. You're stiffing some people.

Sides that I don't have a problem with it.

[jimnyc]

There are, but you really think people are gona pay to get them just to vote when they've always voted before without one. You're stiffing some people.

Sides that I don't have a problem with it.

I was replying to JD's assertion that nobody has a government issued ID that doesn't drive, which is without exception 100% untrue and so far untrue that it's laughable.

[darin]

PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DRIVE


DO NOT have a gvt picture ID.

Oh really? That's news. I wonder why the citizens of these states - just the few I took the time to google - are not marching to stop the perhaps millions wasted each year offering services 'nobody uses'?

http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/gettingidcard.html

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#idcard

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/driverid/idget.shtml

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/identificationrequirements.htm

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/license.htm#nondriver

[PostmodernProphet]

Anyone, who is not a Nazi?

okay, got me....liberals AND Nazis......

[darin]

There are, but you really think people are gona pay to get them just to vote when they've always voted before without one. You're stiffing some people.



Then they don't vote. (shrug)

Anybody refusing to take required steps for their privilege to vote probably shouldn't be voting in the first place.

[jimnyc]

Oh really? That's news. I wonder why the citizens of these states - just the few I took the time to google - are not marching to stop the perhaps millions wasted each year offering services 'nobody uses'?

http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/gettingidcard.html

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#idcard

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/driverid/idget.shtml

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/driver_licensing_control/identificationrequirements.htm

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/license.htm#nondriver

There are government agencies offering photo ID's for communities, cities, counties and such all throughout the nation. Many who have their drivers licenses revoked by a judge get these, as well as those who just don't drive. To say that "nobody" has one is laughable.

[LiberalNation]

Anybody refusing to take required steps for their privilege to vote probably shouldn't be voting in the first place.It's more a right than a privilege to American citizens.

[darin]

It's more a right than a privilege to American citizens.

My daughter can't vote.

Nor can my son.

(shrug)


There are government agencies offering photo ID's for communities, cities, counties and such all throughout the nation. Many who have their drivers licenses revoked by a judge get these, as well as those who just don't drive. To say that "nobody" has one is laughable.

She uses the extreme word "nobody" in a failed attempt to strengthen her argument. I see through it. You see through it. And the DP.com-people see through it.

[JohnDoe]

okay, got me....liberals AND Nazis......


so you want it like Nazi Germany, you want us Americans to NOT be able to walk out of their house or down the street or to the grocery store without having "papers" of identity on them?

Wonderful! :eek:

jd

[LiberalNation]

My daughter can't vote.

Nor can my son.

(shrug)
and I believe age restriction is spelled out in the constitution.

Saying it's a privilege is saying the government has a right to suspend it at any time for any reason. After all it's just a government allowed privilege, right?

[Classact]

PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DRIVE


DO NOT have a gvt picture ID.

Got that? Why is that so hard to understand Classact?

BTW, i lived Puerto Rico for 3 years, where abouts are you?

jdMy mother didn't have a photo ID, bless her soul but that was a long time ago. My father had a drivers license and when he died she had to take her marriage certificate and the family bible (she was born at home) to get my father's Social Security and Medicare, I don't see why it shouldn't be an equal requirement to vote?

What would keep an Illegal Mexican, Iranian, Saudi Arabian, Canadian or any other nationality from registering and voting? When you register you could be issued a photo ID for free when you bring in proof you are a citizen that first time when you register. Do you want people here from around the world to vote in American elections?

I live in the Northwest in the outskirts of San Antonio which is located between Isabella and Aguadilla.

[darin]

so you want it like Nazi Germany, you want us Americans to NOT be able to walk out of their house or down the street or to the grocery store without having "papers" of identity on them?

Wonderful! :eek:

jd

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the pers


Saying it's a privilege is saying the government has a right to suspend it at any time for any reason.



Who says that? What are you talking about? You're hilarious.

[JohnDoe]

My mother didn't have a photo ID, bless her soul but that was a long time ago. My father had a drivers license and when he died she had to take her marriage certificate and the family bible (she was born at home) to get my father's Social Security and Medicare, I don't see why it shouldn't be an equal requirement to vote?

What would keep an Illegal Mexican, Iranian, Saudi Arabian, Canadian or any other nationality from registering and voting? When you register you could be issued a photo ID for free when you bring in proof you are a citizen that first time when you register. Do you want people here from around the world to vote in American elections?

I live in the Northwest in the outskirts of San Antonio which is located between Isabella and Aguadilla.I lived in Isabella!

[jimnyc]

JD, you seem to have bypassed the posts about your incorrect assertion about "nobody" using government photo ID that doesn't drive. Care to address that?

[JohnDoe]

What would keep an Illegal Mexican, Iranian, Saudi Arabian, Canadian or any other nationality from registering and voting? When you register you could be issued a photo ID for free when you bring in proof you are a citizen that first time when you register. Do you want people here from around the world to vote in American elections?



I think at the time of registering or within a month of registering, proof of citizenship must be shown to register to vote....and this needs to be a birth certificate and another id....

BEFORE they send you the voter's registration card.

THIS is where voter fraud can be stopped and should be stopped.

The problem with making the voter's registration card with a photo id on it is that most people are registered to vote on voter drives....at colleges and grocery stores and hospitals and malls etc.... so pictures on the voter registration card is impossible to do....

The other problem we have is that 16 states in the usa allowed ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to get their driver's licence....and many other illegals in other states ALSO found a way around the system to get their driver's licence....

yes a GVT PICTURED ID, so these illegals WILL be able to vote, while usa citizens who DO NOT DRIVE will not, not without going out and getting a pictured gvt id.

many polls used to allow the citizen to bring in their ssan card and birth cirtificates and electric bill to show the address, as acceptable ID's at the polls.....this should be good enough imo.

but to STOP the voter fraud of illegals voting, something MUST BE DONE at the time of registering to vote....

by the time they get to the polls themselves, it is TOO LATE imo.

jd

[jimnyc]

Oh well, I guess a retraction or explanation won't be forthcoming. Nothing like a good dishonest debate!

[Classact]

I lived in Isabella!Were you a surfer at Jobos beach? Jobos is about ten minutes from here... back to the issue of debate, can you imagine Puerto Rican's without a photo ID voting? Some one will get hurt and if the feds weren't here to ship out the Dominicans and Hatians back to their countires someone would get killed if they tried to vote.

People get windows broken on their cars for displaying an American flag or a bumper sticker Puerto Rico 51st state... you better prove who you are to vote here and with the division in the states I think you should have to prove who you are even moreso.

At the founding of the nation only property owners could vote. Representatives in the house of representatives was based on population represented... note the US Constitution as it refers to slaves and indentured servants.

The intent was that all "persons" be represented including slaves, indentured servants and women but the voters would be those responsible enough to own property. I would think the spirit of the constitution would imply the responsibility to vote was held high and therefore if you are too damned lazy to get a photo ID you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[JohnDoe]

JD, you seem to have bypassed the posts about your incorrect assertion about "nobody" using government photo ID that doesn't drive. Care to address that?Sure, I'll address it:

MOST PEOPLE that do NOT drive do not have a gvt pictured id. :D

jd

[jimnyc]

Sure, I'll address it:

MOST PEOPLE that do NOT drive do not have a gvt pictured id. :D

jd

Sucks that we have to poke and prod people to be honest about their statements. And I wouldn't even say most people, unless we're talking about children or those living under rocks. I would say most people that do not have drivers licenses do in fact have another form of government issued photo ID.

[darin]

Sure, I'll address it:

MOST PEOPLE that do NOT drive do not have a gvt pictured id. :D

jd


Let's add honest commentary to what you just wrote.

"JD goes WIDE left and takes the ball out of bounds. Wait - WAIT - she's talking to the official. Let's hear what the Umpire says.

"Out of bounds commentary on JD - Yet, because she CLAIMS something, we won't make her back it up with anything resembling rational thought. Therefore, we'll just go along with her and claim she scored a point."

"OH MAN! Did the ref blow THAT call!"

[Classact]

I think at the time of registering or within a month of registering, proof of citizenship must be shown to register to vote....and this needs to be a birth certificate and another id....

BEFORE they send you the voter's registration card.

THIS is where voter fraud can be stopped and should be stopped.

The problem with making the voter's registration card with a photo id on it is that most people are registered to vote on voter drives....at colleges and grocery stores and hospitals and malls etc.... so pictures on the voter registration card is impossible to do....

The other problem we have is that 16 states in the usa allowed ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to get their driver's licence....and many other illegals in other states ALSO found a way around the system to get their driver's licence....

yes a GVT PICTURED ID, so these illegals WILL be able to vote, while usa citizens who DO NOT DRIVE will not, not without going out and getting a pictured gvt id.

many polls used to allow the citizen to bring in their ssan card and birth cirtificates and electric bill to show the address, as acceptable ID's at the polls.....this should be good enough imo.

but to STOP the voter fraud of illegals voting, something MUST BE DONE at the time of registering to vote....

by the time they get to the polls themselves, it is TOO LATE imo.

jdI'll buy your argument if you would support immeiate implementation of Homeland Security Real ID... http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686.shtm

[LiberalNation]

Who says that? What are you talking about? You're hilarious.

That is what saying it's just a privilege not a right denotes.

and you're the one who claimed it was a privilege not a right.

[darin]

That is what saying it's just a privilege not a right denotes.

and you're the one who claimed it was a privilege not a right.

Voting is a right to some extent, assuming one meets the criteria.

I content Rights cannot be taken away. Privilege can.

While I wrote the word 'privilege' in my reply, you are the one drawing really absurd conclusions.

[JohnDoe]

Sucks that we have to poke and prod people to be honest about their statements. And I wouldn't even say most people, unless we're talking about children or those living under rocks. I would say most people that do not have drivers licenses do in fact have another form of government issued photo ID.I would say most young people that do not drive, but do drink alcohol, PROBABLY have gotten a gvt pictured id....outside of THAT, I still stick by what i have read and am reading about it and people i know that are elderly....

to get a checking acct you only need an electric bill and an ssan card as an example....just two forms of id...and you do not even have to be a citizen to get a checking account or to get a credit card, you can be an illegal to get one...

[LiberalNation]

Voting is a right to some extent, assuming one meets the criteria.

I content Rights cannot be taken away. Privilege can.
That's all I was getting at. Free speech as some criteria as well but it's still a right.

While I wrote the word 'privilege' in my reply, you are the one drawing really absurd conclusions
Of course I am. You wrote privilege in responce to my saying it was a right. I was simply leading off that to it's logical conclusion.

[darin]

I would say most young people that do not drive, but do drink alcohol, PROBABLY have gotten a gvt pictured id....outside of THAT, I still stick by what i have read and am reading about it and people i know that are elderly....


Yet you can't cite ANY data to back up your claim? You'll just go on sticking to your guns without so much as a modicum of real evidence?



.and you do not even have to be a citizen to get a checking account or to get a credit card, you can be an illegal to get one...

...are you arguing because citizenship isn't required for Credit Card, it shouldn't be required for voting?



Of course I am. You wrote privilege in responce to my saying it was a right. I was simply leading off that to it's logical conclusion.


No - you went Sweet-Jesus-help-us off the chart lug-nut-left WAY past reality illogical in your conclusion.

[JohnDoe]

Shoot, even i went a year without a valid driver's licence, i didn't renew it in massachusetts cuz i knew we were moving to maine and didn't want to spend the $70 bucks on the new massachusetts licence, my car was sick and in the shop for one thing after another, and my hubby had been laid off, so he was around to drive every where...

so if a valid gvt id with a picture on it was required to show at the polls I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VOTE.....

that is unacceptable to me...

[darin]

Shoot, even i went a year without a valid driver's licence, i didn't renew it in massachusetts cuz i knew we were moving to maine and didn't want to spend the $70 bucks on the new massachusetts licence, my car was sick and in the shop for one thing after another, and my hubby had been laid off, so he was around to drive every where...

so if a valid gvt id with a picture on it was required to show at the polls I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VOTE.....

that is unacceptable to me...


Did you have to vote that year? YOU CHOSE to not-spend this claimed $70 to renew your license. Did you look into a State ID Card?

You're hung up on a "driver's license" because the alternative shoots your argument in the foot. :)

fwiw - $15 for a State ID card in Mass.

http://www.mass.gov/rmv/license/13bMAID.htm

:)

[Abbey Marie]

Shoot, even i went a year without a valid driver's licence, i didn't renew it in massachusetts cuz i knew we were moving to maine and didn't want to spend the $70 bucks on the new massachusetts licence, my car was sick and in the shop for one thing after another, and my hubby had been laid off, so he was around to drive every where...

so if a valid gvt id with a picture on it was required to show at the polls I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VOTE.....

that is unacceptable to me...

Unacceptable to you? That's ridiculous. It's unlawful to not renew your license and drive, so you voluntarily suspended your driving privileges. You therefore must accept all of the consequences of your voluntary action, including giving up your right to vote. It's called personal responsibility, and it seems to be a faltering concept amongst liberals.

[LiberalNation]

Well I just registered to vote and they didn't even ask for proof of residency in the county. That's a lil scary, I could go in half a dozens times and register under different names before they remembered my face if I wanted to.

[JohnDoe]

Unacceptable to you? That's ridiculous. It's unlawful to not renew your license and drive, so you voluntarily suspended your driving privileges. You therefore must accept all of the consequences of your voluntary action, including giving up your right to vote. It's called personal responsibility, and it seems to be a faltering concept amongst liberals.OH MY GOD! So now you are saying i gave up my right to vote because I CHOSE to not drive?

wow...

and BULLoney!!!! ;)

jd

[LiberalNation]

yeah that is bullshit, right to vote is not linked to being legally able to drive.

[darin]

Shoot, even i went a year without a valid driver's licence, i didn't renew it in massachusetts cuz i knew we were moving to maine and didn't want to spend the $70 bucks on the new massachusetts licence, my car was sick and in the shop for one thing after another, and my hubby had been laid off, so he was around to drive every where...

so if a valid gvt id with a picture on it was required to show at the polls I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VOTE.....

that is unacceptable to me...

Unacceptable to you? That's ridiculous. It's unlawful to not renew your license and drive, so you voluntarily suspended your driving privileges. You therefore must accept all of the consequences of your voluntary action, including giving up your right to vote. It's called personal responsibility, and it seems to be a faltering concept amongst liberals.



http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=937&stc=1&d=1200328179


OH MY GOD! So now you are saying i gave up my right to vote because I CHOSE to not drive?

wow...

and BULLoney!!!! ;)

jd

Perfect opportunity for you to go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off topic and rant about specific words w/o being forced into understanding what Abbey wrote - IN CONTEXT with this thread. Howniceforyou.


yeah that is bullshit, right to vote is not linked to being legally able to drive.

Nobody said it was.

Srsly...you and JD are simply NOT TRYING to follow along, right? It's a game for you, right? To see how way off the wall you can be??

[Abbey Marie]

OH MY GOD! So now you are saying i gave up my right to vote because I CHOSE to not drive?

wow...

and BULLoney!!!! ;)

jd

Here's what you wrote:
so if a valid gvt id with a picture on it was required to show at the polls I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO VOTE.....

You made the connection between driving and voting, not me. Now you don't like the reasonable outcome of your own argument. "Dems" the breaks, lol.

You could have renewed your license (imagine that!), or got that $15 ID card that Darin showed you is available in MA. But instead, you'd rather piss and moan about how unfair it is?

Try cashing a check without ID, btw.

[Trigg]

Well I just registered to vote and they didn't even ask for proof of residency in the county. That's a lil scary, I could go in half a dozens times and register under different names before they remembered my face if I wanted to.

Your saying they didn't even ask for ID before registering you?? Let alone residency??

See Libs (TM), there needs to be some sort of verification of who people are and where they live so that voter fraud doesn't become rampent.

[Dilloduck]

Well I just registered to vote and they didn't even ask for proof of residency in the county. That's a lil scary, I could go in half a dozens times and register under different names before they remembered my face if I wanted to.

In Texas, registering to vote doesn't automatically make you ELIGIBLE to vote. The applications are processed.

[LiberalNation]

I don't think they are here. They'll just use the card to put me on the county rolls.

[JohnDoe]

Here's what you wrote:

You made the connection between driving and voting, not me. Now you don't like the reasonable outcome of your own argument. "Dems" the breaks, lol.

You could have renewed your license (imagine that!), or got that $15 ID card that Darin showed you is available in MA. But instead, you'd rather piss and moan about how unfair it is?

Try cashing a check without ID, btw.there was no need to in massachusetts, i only had to go through the registering to vote process, it took about 2 months before i got my official voter's registration card and get on the registered voter rolls at my designated school, where the voting took place.

where i walked in, had to give the 80 year old poll worker my full name, my address, and my registered affiliate party, she crossed off my name on the roll, and sent me to a booth, where i filled out a ballot, then brought that ballot to another worker who scanned it in to a computer, then someone gave me the ok saying it was processed with no issues.... simple.... there was no need for a driver's licence the 7 plus years i lived there....

i believe that we need to stop voter fraud, and not favor the sector of society that drives as voters over and above the population in our society that doesn't....

a picture id at the polls does absolutely NOTHING to stop voter fraud and is scam to make you and others to think that something is actually gonna stop illegals from voting imo.

a scam because the actual FRAUD takes place when REGISTERING to vote...on illegals....they should not be allowed to make it through each state's registration process.... this way, they can't vote via absentee ballot, which still would require no id....and they wouldn't even have their names on the voter rolls...

illegal immigrants right NOW have driver's licences, the same gvt id that many states are saying is a proper gvt picture id....

i think we need to nip this fraud in the bud and pretending a pictured id at the polls is the sollution is not going to solve a thing....

and exactly how does a picture id of people at the polls, but leaving dead people as valid voters on the roll and allowing absentee voter fraud using these dead names get solved by making people show a pictured gvt id at the actual poll?

if a pictured gvt id does not SOLVE ANYTHING regarding fraud, then i am a small gvt type person, and call the BS when i see it....and these id's at polls are just bs at solving voter fraud...at least the driver's licence is BS untill they comply with real id act imo...especially since not all american citizens drive who can legally vote while many states allowed illegals to get driver's licences, or turned a blind eye to it for years, allowing them to register to vote and have an id with these new gvt w/picture id requirements...

i just don't think it will stop voter fraud but a stricter registration process could without making us all have to ''carry our papers'' to prove we are citizens, every where we go, ''in the land of the free'' just as the nazis required of germany's citizens.

jd

[darin]

a picture id at the polls does absolutely NOTHING to stop voter fraud and is scam to make you and others to think that something is actually gonna stop illegals from voting imo.

So...without ANY evidence - you BOLDLY proclaim Voter ID's would do NOTHING to stop fraud. You make an absolute call. You are positive.

You also make the claim Voter ID would HURT real, legitimate voters, without a shred of evidence?

[Immanuel]

there was no need to in massachusetts, i only had to go through the registering to vote process, it took about 2 months before i got my official voter's registration card and get on the registered voter rolls at my designated school, where the voting took place.

where i walked in, had to give the 80 year old poll worker my full name, my address, and my registered affiliate party, she crossed off my name on the roll, and sent me to a booth, where i filled out a ballot, then brought that ballot to another worker who scanned it in to a computer, then someone gave me the ok saying it was processed with no issues.... simple.... there was no need for a driver's licence the 7 plus years i lived there....



And then you and the 30 other Democrats you were with in the bus drove to the next polling precinct to do the same thing there and then the next and the next and the next. ;)

Geez, no wonder the elections have been so close!

Immie

PS I'm NOT saying JD did this just showing the opportunity.

[JohnDoe]

And then you and the 30 other Democrats you were with in the bus drove to the next polling precinct to do the same thing there and then the next and the next and the next. ;)

Geez, no wonder the elections have been so close!

Immie

PS I'm NOT saying JD did this just showing the opportunity.
HOW though? Your name and address that you're registered under can only be in one polling presinct? your name and address will not be on the voter roll at the next polling precint down the road because your name can only appear in one presinct in the whole state?

This is vetted before each election, and at the time of registering, if you have tried to register at another address it would show up as a duplicate when it goes for processing, and you would not be registered again as a new voter.

each year, the state sent a postcard questionaire that you had to call a number on or return the card via mail, that said if they did not hear from you confirming you are still living in that district/voting presinct, your name would be removed from the presinct's voter rolls, but would be allowed to vote provisional ballot, and you would have a chance to be added as a vote if u proved u were hunky dorey and your name was removed in haste! :)

not one case in my state of voter fraud where someone came in with all the info needed and voted in someone else's place!

the fraud takes place when REGISTERING to vote with illegals....they lie and pretend they are citizens when they REGISTER, which gets them on a valid voting roll at a specific presinct in the first place....

imo, we need to find a way to vet non citizens at the time of registering, and keep illegals off the legitimate voter list in the first place....

and i have no problem making people showing id either, just to show you live at the address you are registered at, in states that don't double check such each year like massachusetts does....but a utility bill with your name and address and another id like your notorized birth certificate or your gvt ssan card along with the bill, should do.

jd

[jimnyc]

the fraud takes place when REGISTERING to vote with illegals....they lie and pretend they are citizens when they REGISTER, which gets them on a valid voting roll at a specific presinct in the first place....

Hence the fact they should require government issued photo ID's to register, like the new "Real ID"

[Dilloduck]

Which bring up a good question----why are there drives to get out the vote in places where the person registering cannot be postively identified ?

[JohnDoe]

Which bring up a good question----why are there drives to get out the vote in places where the person registering cannot be postively identified ?
I don't know, but I am not saying they should stop either. I think that this is where the problem occurs, at the time of registering and I believe that if we put our heads to it, that we can figure out a way to make it more secure and affective then....at the root of the voter fraud problem.

Something like, once you register at one of these drives you have a month to show proof of citizenship at an office or you have to mail them a notorized birth certificate or something like this to verify citizenship, or they won't send you a registration card or put you on the voter rolls and you are vetted by this process that can be devised...


jd

[Dilloduck]

I don't know, but I am not saying they should stop either. I think that this is where the problem occurs, at the time of registering and I believe that if we put our heads to it, that we can figure out a way to make it more secure and affective then....at the root of the voter fraud problem.

Something like, once you register at one of these drives you have a month to show proof of citizenship at an office or you have to mail them a notorized birth certificate or something like this to verify citizenship, or they won't send you a registration card or put you on the voter rolls and you are vetted by this process that can be devised...


jd

Why a month?---if the problem takes place at registration, fix it at registration. Prove who you are and where you live when you register.

[JohnDoe]

Why a month?---if the problem takes place at registration, fix it at registration. Prove who you are and where you live when you register.
But then voter drives would stop...the idea of the drive is to register citizens to vote when they don't expect it....showing up at a mall and getting people to get involved and register to vote.

What does giving them a month or two weeks if you want to shorten it, matter....just because they filled out a form at a drive does not mean they are registered? It still has to go through a process before their name ever makes the voter rolls at a presinct?

And if these people don't follow thru and git the proper info to the registration office, their names don't get processed and they are not officially registered to vote?

jd

[Dilloduck]

But then voter drives would stop...the idea of the drive is to register citizens to vote when they don't expect it....showing up at a mall and getting people to get involved and register to vote.

What does giving them a month or two weeks if you want to shorten it, matter....just because they filled out a form at a drive does not mean they are registered? It still has to go through a process before their name ever makes the voter rolls at a presinct?

And if these people don't follow thru and git the proper info to the registration office, their names don't get processed and they are not officially registered to vote?

jd



BUT whoever took their application has TONS of personal information about them. Are you going to give some one at the mall your DL , address and phone number ? That would be like giving a UPS man your picture to carry around with him from house to house.

[JohnDoe]

Hence the fact they should require government issued photo ID's to register, like the new "Real ID"I didn't mean to ignore you Jim...didn't even see this, took one response and started to answer it...

I am against real id Jim or any kind of nationally instituted or regulated id card...I don't think law abiding citizens should be punished for what illegals and our government has been allowing them, do.

I think the people that commit the fraud should be punished or stopped, but i don't believe this gives our gvt the right to gather all of us citizens up on some master list, that can track us and contain personal information about us, that can also be breached and harm us someday.

I am the citizen in the land of the free and intend to fight like a son of a bitch to keep it that way... go after the criminals Jim, but don't make our gvt more and more powerful over us every single day.

with more and more power over us every day....you will come to regret it, imo.


There has to be another way to stop the voter fraud when registering to vote...your real id or driver's license only becomes a "real id" by the citizen presenting their birth certificate and another id when getting their licence....why can't those same id's be used when registering to vote somehow?

jd

[JohnDoe]

BUT whoever took their application has TONS of personal information about them. Are you going to give some one at the mall your DL , address and phone number ? That would be like giving a UPS man your picture to carry around with him from house to house.When I registered to vote i had to give them my name and address? They have to mail you your voter registration card and gather this info at these drives.

If i felt uncomfortable with it there, then i would not be part of the drive and register there and might git info on where a registration office is....if i was truely interested in voting.

but i would not be carrying my notorized birth certificate with me and driver's licenses are not good enough since the illegals have gotten them and through the system.

jd

[Dilloduck]

When I registered to vote i had to give them my name and address? They have to mail you your voter registration card and gather this info at these drives.

If i felt uncomfortable with it there, then i would not be part of the drive and register there and might git info on where a registration office is....if i was truely interested in voting.

but i would not be carrying my notorized birth certificate with me and driver's licenses are not good enough since the illegals have gotten them and through the system.

jd

Someone needs to verify who you are and where you live to prevent voter fraud.----Who do you want doing it ?

[JohnDoe]

Someone needs to verify who you are and where you live to prevent voter fraud.----Who do you want doing it ?the person at the voters registrar's office? not the person at some college or mall trying to recruit me, that's for certain!

But is that what you are getting at?

jd

[Dilloduck]

the person at the voters registrar's office? not the person at some college or mall trying to recruit me, that's for certain!

But is that what you are getting at?

jd

Wanting to maintain privacy yet at the same time demanding everyone verify who they are is IMPOSSIBLE. Then again----since politicians dont have to verify how they will behave once they are elected it doesn't make that much of a difference. Screw em--if they can lie, so can we. :laugh2:

[manu1959]

see the issue is....people cheat....and they vote when they shouldn't and the pice that is paid when people cheat is new regulations and rules are passed because people cheat.....

sorry but a picture id to prove you are not a cheater is the price we get to pay because some people cheat.....

sure the govt could issue them for free if you can't afford an id.....but if you can afford a cell phone a credit card and an ipod you can afford an id.....

[JohnDoe]

see the issue is....people cheat....and they vote when they shouldn't and the pice that is paid when people cheat is new regulations and rules are passed because people cheat.....

sorry but a picture id to prove you are not a cheater is the price we get to pay because some people cheat.....

sure the govt could issue them for free if you can't afford an id.....but if you can afford a cell phone a credit card and an ipod you can afford an id.....

and what voter fraud that takes place at the voting booth would be stopped by having a gvt picture id?

NONE!

JD

[jimnyc]

and what voter fraud that takes place at the voting booth would be stopped by having a gvt picture id?

NONE!

JD

Did Manu state that they should present ID at the booth?

NO!

They should have verifiable proof when they register. Isn't that when YOU said the fraud takes place? Then NEW standards and proper photo ID must be established to stop it there.

[JohnDoe]

Did Manu state that they should present ID at the booth?

NO!

They should have verifiable proof when they register. Isn't that when YOU said the fraud takes place? Then NEW standards and proper photo ID must be established to stop it there.


then, I AGREE!!!! :)

jd

[manu1959]

so i solve the problem and get consensus from oposing factions....yet nothing in return......

genius is never rewarded......

[JohnDoe]

so i solve the problem and get consensus from oposing factions....yet nothing in return......

genius is never rewarded......


hahahahahahaha! Poor baby....! lol

Manu, YOU are a GENIUS! :clap:

jd

[Immanuel]

HOW though? Your name and address that you're registered under can only be in one polling presinct? your name and address will not be on the voter roll at the next polling precint down the road because your name can only appear in one presinct in the whole state?

This is vetted before each election, and at the time of registering, if you have tried to register at another address it would show up as a duplicate when it goes for processing, and you would not be registered again as a new voter.

each year, the state sent a postcard questionaire that you had to call a number on or return the card via mail, that said if they did not hear from you confirming you are still living in that district/voting presinct, your name would be removed from the presinct's voter rolls, but would be allowed to vote provisional ballot, and you would have a chance to be added as a vote if u proved u were hunky dorey and your name was removed in haste! :)

not one case in my state of voter fraud where someone came in with all the info needed and voted in someone else's place!

the fraud takes place when REGISTERING to vote with illegals....they lie and pretend they are citizens when they REGISTER, which gets them on a valid voting roll at a specific presinct in the first place....

imo, we need to find a way to vet non citizens at the time of registering, and keep illegals off the legitimate voter list in the first place....

and i have no problem making people showing id either, just to show you live at the address you are registered at, in states that don't double check such each year like massachusetts does....but a utility bill with your name and address and another id like your notorized birth certificate or your gvt ssan card along with the bill, should do.

jd


Well, dear, when you get an ID, you have to prove who you are with a birth certificate, passport or what have you. You don't have to prove anything when you register to vote. They make you sign an affidavit! Big whooptie do!

Your name and address can only be in one place, but you can register in one precinct under John T. Smith and another under John Tom Smith and another under John Thomas Smith and another under John Theodore Smith and another under John Ted Smith and another under John Smith and another under Jonathan Smith etc. Without checking your picture id and the address we'd never know and of course we would never be able to prove that all those John Smiths voted Democrat, but we know they would never vote Republican because we know Republicans only use electronic vote fraud. :poke:

And your state postcards don't mean sh*t either! Let's see, John Smith registers at a friends address at Apt 101 in one precinct, another precinct he registers at Apt 1B etc. All mail is picked up by a friend at each address and John Smith signs and returns the card at his convenience.

You state that it hasn't happened as if you know this, which of course is not true. You could not possibly know it doesn't happen. The only thing you can say for sure is that your state doesn't really check up on possible fraud and who would expect a blue state to do so? :poke:

As for a utility bill proving who you are, I could live with even just that as it would be more difficult to forge that as long as the bill were a current bill that is. An utility bill is still some kind of identification. Although it does not show a picture of the person it purports to be it does at least help to identify the owner of the home... except then you are disenfranchising all those poor voters, especially women, whose bills come in their spouse's name.

I think the picture id is important. I also agree with you that requiring a person to purchase a picture id can be construed as a poll tax. However, I have no problem providing the poor with an id free of charge at their request. It is not like there are not enough ways to get one or that it would be that expensive with all the places one can go to get an id.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

so i solve the problem and get consensus from oposing factions....yet nothing in return......

genius is never rewarded......

I got your reward right here, bro !!!!!:poke:

[manu1959]

I got your reward right here, bro !!!!!:poke:

you should really have that brown stick checked out by a urologist.....

[JohnDoe]

Well, dear, when you get an ID, you have to prove who you are with a birth certificate, passport or what have you. You don't have to prove anything when you register to vote. They make you sign an affidavit! Big whooptie do! Well dear, that is not true at the present time...birth certificates to get your drivers licence is not mandatory, in maine it is only requested if you are getting your licence for the first time and UNDER the age of 22, if you are over than 22 you don't even need a birth certificate to get your licence and other id's will do...

Your name and address can only be in one place, but you can register in one precinct under John T. Smith and another under John Tom Smith and another under John Thomas Smith and another under John Theodore Smith and another under John Ted Smith and another under John Smith and another under Jonathan Smith etc. Without checking your picture id and the address we'd never know Do you have ANY CASE AT ALL that you can link showing that this kind of voter fraud is what takes place at the polls and that this is the kind of voter fraud that needs to be stopped by a pic id, that could not be stopped with showing your electric bill? There is no way that you can register under the same name by changing it in the manner you are speaking about and go from presinct to presinct, unless you also have an address in each of those different presincts... And btw, with the picture id this made up fraud scenario of yours could and would still take place

and of course we would never be able to prove that all those John Smiths voted Democrat, but we know they would never vote Republican because we know Republicans only use electronic vote fraud. :poke:

And your state postcards don't mean sh*t either! Let's see, John Smith registers at a friends address at Apt 101 in one precinct, another precinct he registers at Apt 1B etc. All mail is picked up by a friend at each address and John Smith signs and returns the card at his convenience.

You state that it hasn't happened as if you know this, which of course is not true. You could not possibly know it doesn't happen. The only thing you can say for sure is that your state doesn't really check up on possible fraud and who would expect a blue state to do so? :poke:

There is NO RECORD in ANY STATE that this kind of fraud has taken place, and YOU want us to go to a national id card because of some FRAUD that has NEVER TAKEN PLACE? not me

As for a utility bill proving who you are, I could live with even just that as it would be more difficult to forge that as long as the bill were a current bill that is. An utility bill is still some kind of identification. Although it does not show a picture of the person it purports to be it does at least help to identify the owner of the home... except then you are disenfranchising all those poor voters, especially women, whose bills come in their spouse's name.

I think the picture id is important. I also agree with you that requiring a person to purchase a picture id can be construed as a poll tax. However, I have no problem providing the poor with an id free of charge at their request. It is not like there are not enough ways to get one or that it would be that expensive with all the places one can go to get an id.

Immie

Picture id's at the voting booth will not stop any substantial fraud, it will not stop the illegals from voting if they have already gotten their driver's licence...

This is the fraud that IS TAKING PLACE, along with voting for dead people, which is DONE by absentee ballot, where NO ID'S are required even with these new picture id laws that some states are putting in....and that can be solved by removing dead people from the voter rolls.

jd

[emmett]

Picture id's at the voting booth will not stop any substantial fraud, it will not stop the illegals from voting if they have already gotten their driver's licence...

This is the fraud that IS TAKING PLACE, along with voting for dead people, which is DONE by absentee ballot, where NO ID'S are required even with these new picture id laws that some states are putting in....and that can be solved by removing dead people from the voter rolls.

jd

Let me ask you this.......

What is wrong with having a picture ID to vote? We have one to buy cigarettes, alcohol etc,....

What is wrong with the United States asking you to simply flip out your proof that you are a US citizen and entitled to vote. I don't mind showing mine.

[Abbey Marie]

Let me ask you this.......

What is wrong with having a picture ID to vote? We have one to buy cigarettes, alcohol etc,....

What is wrong with the United States asking you to simply flip out your proof that you are a US citizen and entitled to vote. I don't mind showing mine.

While you are waiting for JD to answer, let me:

False "Consitutional-rights" Type Answer: It impinges on my rights as an American to have to show anyone any kind of ID for such a basic right as voting.

True Answer: The people who don't have ID's because they are illegals or low life losers, or both, will all vote Dem to ensure bigger and better handouts, so we simply cannot force them to have ID's.

[JohnDoe]

Let me ask you this.......

What is wrong with having a picture ID to vote? We have one to buy cigarettes, alcohol etc,....

What is wrong with the United States asking you to simply flip out your proof that you are a US citizen and entitled to vote. I don't mind showing mine.Nothing is wrong with it, unless you don't drive, and don't have a picture id already...like the millions of people in cities who do not drive or the millions of seniors who do not drive...

and nothing is wrong with it if you don't care about the voter fraud that IS TAKING PLACE long before anyone even gets to the polls to vote...

How does a driver's licence with a pic on it stop the illegal aliens that have driver's license already? 16 states already allowed illegals to get licences in their states....

so the only reason anyone would want to insist on using a pictured gvt driver's licence at the polls in order to vote is to make it harder on usa citizens that do not drive...who are usually city dwellers or the poor than the richer folk that do drive or those that live in the suberbs that do drive already...

should it be made easier on an elite group of people that already have these id's, a driver's license as an example, than another group of citizens that do not have a driver's license with a pic on it?

and if the person is already registered to vote, their name is already on the voter roll at the polls, how does someone showing id there, stop any kind of fraud? How does this stop fraud? It doesn't.

something needs to be done at the time of registering, one's birth certificate or legal papers for immigrants showing citizenship needs to be part of the registering to vote process or vetting to stop illegals from getting on the voter rolls fraudulently in the first place....this way they won't be able to vote, there at the polls or via absentee ballot.

I don't mind if a state requires id, and many states have required it, or two pieces of id to prove you are the person registered to vote, something with your name and address on it like the electric bill, and one's birth certificate or ssan card, or a number of other id's....

it is the picture id, the driver's licence at this point as one of the only gvt pictured id's acceptable is what puts others that do not drive as a disadvanged citizen...when they have the same right as a citizen as the one who happens to own a car and drives, to vote.

Do you want to stop illegals from voting? Or do you want to stop American citizens from voting?

If you want to stop Americans from voting and want to make it harder on the non driving American citizens from voting, then by all means, support the crap that is going on, and let the illegals continue to vote fraudulently because you have not stopped them one bit....they already have driver's licences, or a good deal of them do already.

jd

[Immanuel]

Picture id's at the voting booth will not stop any substantial fraud, it will not stop the illegals from voting if they have already gotten their driver's licence...

This is the fraud that IS TAKING PLACE, along with voting for dead people, which is DONE by absentee ballot, where NO ID'S are required even with these new picture id laws that some states are putting in....and that can be solved by removing dead people from the voter rolls.

jd

So you say, once again without a damned bit of proof.

Why is it that everyone, to my knowledge, who supports the idea of requiring a picture id on this site is willing to provide those id's to the poor free of charge, yet you still continue to claim, without proof again, that they cannot get id's? I am sure that even those vast majority of city-dwellers you keep harping about have some form of picture id. You have yet to prove your statement of "millions" of Americans who do not have picture id's. It would not even surprise me to find out that the number is not even in the 100 thousands. Unless of course you are counting children under the age of 18? No, you would not stoop that low... would you?

Immie

[JohnDoe]

So you say, once again without a damned bit of proof.

Why is it that everyone, to my knowledge, who supports the idea of requiring a picture id on this site is willing to provide those id's to the poor free of charge, yet you still continue to claim, without proof again, that they cannot get id's? I am sure that even those vast majority of city-dwellers you keep harping about have some form of picture id. You have yet to prove your statement of "millions" of Americans who do not have picture id's. It would not even surprise me to find out that the number is not even in the 100 thousands. Unless of course you are counting children under the age of 18? No, you would not stoop that low... would you?

Immie

good afternoon immie,

I did not say that they could not be forced to get id's with a picture on it so that they can present a picture id? Sure, if they want to vote and the law is changed where they can't vote without the pictured driver's license or pictured gvt issued id, then they will have to go out and find the means and time to get one or just give up their Constitutionally given RIGHT to vote as citizen's of the USA.

I did say that showing that pictured id at the polls themselves does no good and stops no substantial voter fraud because the fraud takes place at the registration process....(or via absentee ballot) therefore this is where we should concentrate on making certain that people show proof of citizenship. Proof of citizenship can be one's own Birth Certificate with another acceptable id of some sort that has their address on it, or proof of citizenship can be any of the id's that our gvt is requiring to fit the real ID act....

What I do not want to see, are American citizens being FORCED to carry a national id card with a national database tracking them, and i believe that the American citizens are being tricked in to thinking that this is necessary in order to prevent voter fraud somehow....when it is NOT necessary to prevent voter fraud.

It bothers me that us American citizens are going to have to carry our "papers" with us just as the Nazi's forced the Germans to do ALL BECAUSE our gvt never enforced the laws on the books relating to immigrants and because our gvt turned a blind eye to the illegals from Mexico and even to the 911 terrorist immigrants. And ALL because the gvt didn't do what they were and are suppose to do to protect us....like following the Law....

so now WE HAVE TO PAY for their intentional dereliction of duty, by them forcing us to carry id at all times in the guise of our own safety...and THAT is where this whole issue is going.

jd

[Classact]

JohnDoe I'm still waiting for you to answer my offer on post 40...

[JohnDoe]

JohnDoe I'm still waiting for you to answer my offer on post 40...post 40? ok, going to it now...:)

[Immanuel]

good afternoon immie,

I did not say that they could not be forced to get id's with a picture on it so that they can present a picture id? Sure, if they want to vote and the law is changed where they can't vote without the pictured driver's license or pictured gvt issued id, then they will have to go out and find the means and time to get one or just give up their Constitutionally given RIGHT to vote as citizen's of the USA.

I did say that showing that pictured id at the polls themselves does no good and stops no substantial voter fraud because the fraud takes place at the registration process....(or via absentee ballot) therefore this is where we should concentrate on making certain that people show proof of citizenship. Proof of citizenship can be one's own Birth Certificate with another acceptable id of some sort that has their address on it, or proof of citizenship can be any of the id's that our gvt is requiring to fit the real ID act....

What I do not want to see, are American citizens being FORCED to carry a national id card with a national database tracking them, and i believe that the American citizens are being tricked in to thinking that this is necessary in order to prevent voter fraud somehow....when it is NOT necessary to prevent voter fraud.

It bothers me that us American citizens are going to have to carry our "papers" with us just as the Nazi's forced the Germans to do ALL BECAUSE our gvt never enforced the laws on the books relating to immigrants and because our gvt turned a blind eye to the illegals from Mexico and even to the 911 terrorist immigrants. And ALL because the gvt didn't do what they were and are suppose to do to protect us....like following the Law....

so now WE HAVE TO PAY for their intentional dereliction of duty, by them forcing us to carry id at all times in the guise of our own safety...and THAT is where this whole issue is going.

jd

Nor do I want a National ID card. Hell, why don't they just make us implant a chip on our right hands or foreheads?

But requiring a driver's license or other form of identification, both when registering and when voting, preferrably one with a picture, is not too much to ask of voters. No one at all should object to that if it prevents fraud.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

JohnDoe I'm still waiting for you to answer my offer on post 40...
I read the link that you provided on Real ID and from what i read on it, I THINK my answer is no, I do not support it.

1-I don't believe the federal gvt has the jurisdiction to force this on to the States.

2-although the article "says" this is proposed; to get on American airplanes, in to federal buildings and in to nuclear plants ONLY at this time, it SAYS that DHS can come back and say that the ID will be needed for more and more and more things....that we do in our lives. (Thus, having to carry our "Papers" at all times)

3- Forcing Real ID upon the States and upon our legitimate citizens in order to stop another 9/11 tradgedy is a HOAX, a guise.....How will this Real ID stop another 9/11? It won't, and even if it had been in place at the time of 911, it wouldn't have....

4. I don't like the fact that tracking devices can be put in to the driver's license...

----------------------------------------------------

I see this as one of the incremental steps to a National ID and database and see no merit in it that would stop terrorism.

This is not to say, that i do not see great merit in the States on their own, verrifying the citizenship of the people in their own state before issuing any kind of gvt id to them....



jd

[Dilloduck]

I read the link that you provided on Real ID and from what i read on it, I THINK my answer is no, I do not support it.

1-I don't believe the federal gvt has the jurisdiction to force this on to the States.

2-although the article "says" this is proposed; to get on American airplanes, in to federal buildings and in to nuclear plants ONLY at this time, it SAYS that DHS can come back and say that the ID will be needed for more and more and more things....that we do in our lives. (Thus, having to carry our "Papers" at all times)

3- Forcing Real ID upon the States and upon our legitimate citizens in order to stop another 9/11 tradgedy is a HOAX, a guise.....How will this Real ID stop another 9/11? It won't, and even if it had been in place at the time of 911, it wouldn't have....

4. I don't like the fact that tracking devices can be put in to the driver's license...

----------------------------------------------------

I see this as one of the incremental steps to a National ID and database and see no merit in it that would stop terrorism.

This is not to say, that i do not see great merit in the States on their own, verrifying the citizenship of the people in their own state before issuing any kind of gvt id to them....



jd

and if you state required a Real ID to vote ?

[JohnDoe]

and if you state required a Real ID to vote ?


My state has already OPTED OUT on Real ID

[manu1959]

My state has already OPTED OUT on Real ID

question....what do yourids look like now? made of?

[JohnDoe]

question....what do yourids look like now? made of?plastic id with a pic on it? why manu?

[manu1959]

plastic id with a pic on it? why manu?

is there a magnetic strip on the back.....

just curious what part of the new law your id would not meet.....

i am pretty sure my cali id already complies....

[JohnDoe]

is there a magnetic strip on the back.....

just curious what part of the new law your id would not meet.....

i am pretty sure my cali id already complies....fyi, i'm upstairs doing laundry and my purse with license is downstairs....when i get a chance, i will look at it to see if there is a barcode on the back and let ya know later... :)

jd

ps, since ya live in cali, do you know of illegals driving with cali licenses?

[jimnyc]

My state has already OPTED OUT on Real ID

Make sure you have plenty of other government issued photo ID available! You won't be flying, entering any federal buildings and hopefully a lot more things once the Real ID goes into full effect.

[manu1959]

fyi, i'm upstairs doing laundry and my purse with license is downstairs....when i get a chance, i will look at it to see if there is a barcode on the back and let ya know later... :)

jd

ps, since ya live in cali, do you know of illegals driving with cali licenses?

i have illegals drive to my house clean it and mow the lawns.....not to mention the construction crew that was there.....only the super spoke english....

so yes.....

[JohnDoe]

Make sure you have plenty of other government issued photo ID available! You won't be flying, entering any federal buildings and hopefully a lot more things once the Real ID goes into full effect.How WONDERFUL!

So nice to live in the SUPPOSED land of the free!

Only to be held captive in my own native country!!!

:cheers2:

jd

[Dilloduck]

How WONDERFUL!

So nice to live in the SUPPOSED land of the free!

Only to be held captive in my own native country!!!

:cheers2:

jd

Get back in your cage !! :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

is there a magnetic strip on the back.....

just curious what part of the new law your id would not meet.....

i am pretty sure my cali id already complies....Yes, there is a barcode on the back.

And as far as Cali Driver's licenses possibly already meeting the Real ID act requirements already....

Then how the hell did those illegal immigrants that worked on your house and lawn get driver's licenses?

With that driver's license, with the new pictured id requirements, allows them to lie and register to vote, and VOTE...fraudulently and having the requirement to show a pictured gvt ID at the polls is a JOKE, and can stop true American citizens that do not drive or have a pictured gvt id from voting...

[Immanuel]

Make sure you have plenty of other government issued photo ID available! You won't be flying, entering any federal buildings and hopefully a lot more things once the Real ID goes into full effect.

So the plan here is to make two classes of American citizens those who worship at the altar of the President and those who face penalties for not complying... oh boy!! When does the Mark of the Beast get announced?

Immie

[Dilloduck]

So the plan here is to make two classes of American citizens those who worship at the altar of the President and those who face penalties for not complying... oh boy!! When does the Mark of the Beast get announced?

Immie

Cmon Immie----we're just looking for a way to determine who is a legal citizen and who isn't. Is it really too much to ask ? We let thousands of guilty go free to ensure we don't convict an innocent man. If you don't have your ID someday, I doubt you will be shot for it.

[manu1959]

So the plan here is to make two classes of American citizens those who worship at the altar of the President and those who face penalties for not complying... oh boy!! When does the Mark of the Beast get announced?

Immie

several states already comply including moon bat california......have you googled real ID and what it is actually trying to do?.....

[Immanuel]

several states already comply including moon bat california......have you googled real ID and what it is actually trying to do?.....

I read the site that was presented on this board, but I don't really care what our elected officials are telling us they intend to do with it. GWB told us he had only the best intentions with the USA Patriot Act and we ended up with NSA Wiretapping and who knows what else.

http://www.news.com/FAQ-How-Real-ID-will-affect-you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html

Oh my God! It is even worse than I thought, they have already required the Mark of the Beast! And American Citizens are begging for this?

God Help us all.

Immie

[manu1959]

I read the site that was presented on this board, but I don't really care what our elected officials are telling us they intend to do with it. GWB told us he had only the best intentions with the USA Patriot Act and we ended up with NSA Wiretapping and who knows what else.

Immie

implimentation has been postponed till after george is gone ...... you should read about it....it wil do some good things if implimented properly ..... not sure there is really a way around it give the way the world is at the moment ....

[jimnyc]

So the plan here is to make two classes of American citizens those who worship at the altar of the President and those who face penalties for not complying... oh boy!! When does the Mark of the Beast get announced?

Immie

Why bring up the president again? This is the making of the Homeland Security Department, and approved by both Democrats and Republicans alike. You already have to get a drivers license (most people). This just makes you provide more strict proof of citizenship in order to obtain the license. Once received, it's no different than what you currently have. Do you have a problem with people being asked to prove their citizenship to alleviate the many problems we face with illegal immigrants, fraud and terrorism?

[manu1959]

I read the site that was presented on this board, but I don't really care what our elected officials are telling us they intend to do with it. GWB told us he had only the best intentions with the USA Patriot Act and we ended up with NSA Wiretapping and who knows what else.

http://www.news.com/FAQ-How-Real-ID-will-affect-you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html

Oh my God! It is even worse than I thought, they have already required the Mark of the Beast! And American Citizens are begging for this?

God Help us all.

Immie

given gods track record recently ..... not sure he will be much help.....

[Immanuel]

Cmon Immie----we're just looking for a way to determine who is a legal citizen and who isn't. Is it really too much to ask ? We let thousands of guilty go free to ensure we don't convict an innocent man. If you don't have your ID someday, I doubt you will be shot for it.

Really? Was that the justification people used when Adolf Hitler was up and coming in German politics?

And whether you know it or not, you are not innocent until proven guilty. It is exactly the opposite. If you are accused of a crime, you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

I'm sorry, but this is bad politics. This is Hitler politics and this scares the shit out of me.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Really? Was that the justification people used when Adolf Hitler was up and coming in German politics?

And whether you know it or not, you are not innocent until proven guilty. It is exactly the opposite. If you are accused of a crime, you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

I'm sorry, but this is bad politics. This is Hitler politics and this scares the shit out of me.

Immie

Acting out of fear makes for bad decisions. Hitler is dead.

[Immanuel]

Why bring up the president again? This is the making of the Homeland Security Department, and approved by both Democrats and Republicans alike. You already have to get a drivers license (most people). This just makes you provide more strict proof of citizenship in order to obtain the license. Once received, it's no different than what you currently have. Do you have a problem with people being asked to prove their citizenship to alleviate the many problems we face with illegal immigrants, fraud and terrorism?

Why bring up the President? Um, question... who signed the bill into law? Question #2... who do the people that put this plan into place work for? Don't even bother trying to say that it is the American people because that is BS.

I have to get a driver's license, but this is more than a driver's license. If you don't comply, you are a second class citizen. If you don't comply, you go onto a watch-list and cannot fly, cannot enter a federal courthouse except for when they haul your ass to court because you are an enemy of the state. Someday, if you don't comply they will be pounding in your door arresting you.

What kind of information are they going to store? One guess is religion of choice. But of course that will only be stored so that when you die, they know what kind of funeral you would like to have... well, that is until they decide that your religion of choice is detrimental to American politics.

Yeah, I'm paranoid... blah, blah, blah. Paranoid for not trusting the people who are running this government. Give me one reason to trust them... just one.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Acting out of fear makes for bad decisions. Hitler is dead.

Yeah? And so are millions upon millions of people who didn't act fast enough.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Yeah? And so are millions upon millions of people who didn't act fast enough.

Immie

Are you talking about the Russians or the Chinese ?

[Immanuel]

And Yes, I realize the government can already track every thing I do, but it pisses me off that they are flaunting it and it pisses me off three times more than that, that it is coming from a man who protrayed himself as a Conservative Christian.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Are you talking about the Russians or the Chinese ?

What do you deny that millions upon millions of Jews not to mention Germans themselves died due to Hitler's immorality? Or the Russians that fought against him, or the Allied soldiers that fought him?

Immie

[manu1959]

What do you deny that millions upon millions of Jews not to mention Germans themselves died due to Hitler's immorality? Or the Russians that fought against him, or the Allied soldiers that fought him?

Immie

didn't stalin kill more than hitler.....

[Dilloduck]

What do you deny that millions upon millions of Jews not to mention Germans themselves died due to Hitler's immorality? Or the Russians that fought against him, or the Allied soldiers that fought him?

Immie

No---I'm saying that if the government wants to exterminate you they don't need an excuse. You far more likely to be starved to death by a poor ecomomy or a pandemic than shot for not having an ID. Sacrificing lower order freedoms to exercise higher order freedoms is something everyone needs a lesson in.

[Immanuel]

didn't stalin kill more than hitler.....

Does it matter?

Are you nominating Adolf Hitler for sainthood because he may not have killed as many people as Joseph Stalin? ;)

Immie

[Immanuel]

No---I'm saying that if the government wants to exterminate you they don't need an excuse. You far more likely to be starved to death by a poor ecomomy or a pandemic than shot for not having an ID. Sacrificing lower order freedoms to exercise higher order freedoms is something everyone needs a lesson in.

Maybe today, I am more likely to be starved to death **looks at belly** well, not today anyway, but then who can foretell what the future holds?

Immie

[manu1959]

Does it matter?

Are you nominating Adolf Hitler for sainthood because he may not have killed as many people as Joseph Stalin? ;)

Immie

no just pointing out that our ally was worse than our foe.....

[Immanuel]

no just pointing out that our ally was worse than our foe.....

Saddam Hussein was once our ally, so what?

I notice neither one of you have attempted to give me one reason to trust the people who run our government... see post #111. Geez that post # makes me think of another three digit number mentioned in prophecy!

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Maybe today, I am more likely to be starved to death **looks at belly** well, not today anyway, but then who can foretell what the future holds?

Immie

An hysterical comparison of getting an ID card to prove you are an American citizen to Hitler killing jews just doesn't quite fit the bill. While you are watching out for Nazis the Commies will get ya. Get an ID --it will make your wallet fatter and people wont think you're an illegal--big deal.

[Dilloduck]

Saddam Hussein was once our ally, so what?

I notice neither one of you have attempted to give me one reason to trust the people who run our government... see post #111. Geez that post # makes me think of another three digit number mentioned in prophecy!

Immie

I got one---you don't have a choice.

[Immanuel]

An hysterical comparison of getting an ID card to prove you are an American citizen to Hitler killing jews just doesn't quite fit the bill. While you are watching out for Nazis the Commies will get ya. Get an ID --it will make your wallet fatter and people wont think you're an illegal--big deal.

Actually, I'm not hysterical, just pissed.

Also, the comparison is more towards biblical prophecy than to Hitler killing Jews.

Immie

[Immanuel]

I got one---you don't have a choice.

Got one? You mean you have willingly taken the Mark of the Beast? That is the whole point of my comparison... you don't have a choice.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Got one? You mean you have willingly taken the Mark of the Beast? That is the whole point of my comparison... you don't have a choice.

Immie

A real ID is the Mark of the Beast ????? Are you sure it's not your ss# ?

[manu1959]

Saddam Hussein was once our ally, so what?

I notice neither one of you have attempted to give me one reason to trust the people who run our government... see post #111. Geez that post # makes me think of another three digit number mentioned in prophecy!

Immie

so was osama bin laden..... so was pinochet.....so was noriega.....keep your friends close and enemies closer......

if you can believe in god you can believe that there are good people in our govt trying to do good.....you can't belive they are are evil and mean you harm.....

[Immanuel]

A real ID is the Mark of the Beast ????? Are you sure it's not your ss# ?

Yep, I'm sure.

Immie

[manu1959]

A real ID is the Mark of the Beast ????? Are you sure it's not your ss# ?

nah it is you pin number to operate your atm.....

[Dilloduck]

Yep, I'm sure.

Immie

LOL ok---the devil is after us. :cool:

[Dilloduck]

nah it is you pin number to operate your atm.....

crap--you asshole---now I gotta change it !!!!! :finger3:

[Immanuel]

so was osama bin laden..... so was pinochet.....so was noriega.....keep your friends close and enemies closer......

if you can believe in god you can believe that there are good people in our govt trying to do good.....you can't belive they are are evil and mean you harm.....

I believe that the vast majority of men and women who enter into politics do so with the best of intentions. I believe that by the time they reach the level of Congress or even State executive & legislative branches, they have had to sell their souls so many times that there is nothing left to sell.

I do not believe that they mean me harm. Not me personally (which means I am not paranoid... at least not yet) but I do believe that they are corrupt and that eventually we will have people in power who will do downright evil things and I am not yet convinced that this administration is not those people.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

I believe that the vast majority of men and women who enter into politics do so with the best of intentions. I believe that by the time they reach the level of Congress or even State executive & legislative branches, they have had to sell their souls so many times that there is nothing left to sell.

I do not believe that they mean me harm. Not me personally (which means I am not paranoid... at least not yet) but I do believe that they are corrupt and that eventually we will have people in power who will do downright evil things and I am not yet convinced that this administration is not those people.

Immie

What does God tell you to do about it ?

[Immanuel]

LOL ok---the devil is after us. :cool:

Don't you mean GWB is after us or more likely he is the false prophet making the way for Dick Cheney? :p

Immie

PS Now, I am beginning to sound like JD! God help me!

[Immanuel]

What does God tell you to do about it ?

Not to accept the Mark, but the damned scary thing about it is like you... it is not something that people will believe they are taking until it is too late.

Immie

[red states rule]

This is a classic example on how Dems do not really wnat to stop vote fraud. the state of GA offered FREE ID's and FREE home delivery of the ID's - and it still was not good enough!


Georgia Law Requiring Voters to Show Photo ID Is Thrown Out

Judge Says Some Would Be Disenfranchised; State Plans Appeal

By Darryl Fears and Jonathan Weisman
Wednesday, September 20, 2006; Page A06

A state judge yesterday rejected a Georgia law requiring voters to show government-issued photo identification, writing in his decision, "This cannot be."

Fulton County Superior Court Judge T. Jackson Bedford Jr. said the law, pushed by Gov. Sonny Perdue (R) to fight voter fraud, violates the state constitution because it disenfranchises citizens who are otherwise qualified to vote.

State officials vowed to appeal Bedford’s ruling to the Georgia Supreme Court before the Nov. 7 general election…

Like the Georgia law, the federal legislation would almost certainly be challenged in court. A coalition of interest and civil rights groups, including the NAACP, AARP, and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, denounced the bill yesterday, saying it would disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of minority and elderly voters.

Georgia’s law was challenged by Rosalind Lake, an elderly black woman who was left partially blind after being nearly electrocuted in her home, is unable to drive and could not easily obtain a voter ID, her attorney said.

The lawyer, former governor Roy Barnes, argued that even though the state offered to deliver an ID to Lake’s home, it could not do the same for everyone who is similarly challenged.

"We have a low voter participation," said Barnes, a Democrat. "We’re going to make it more difficult?"

In previous elections, Georgians could present any one of 17 types of identification with their names and addresses, including a driver’s license, utility bill, bank statement or paycheck.

Perdue and other proponents of the law said it is needed to curtail fraud. They cited an Atlanta Journal-Constitution article that said 5,000 dead people were listed as having voted in the eight elections preceding 2000…

"This is the most sinister scheme I’ve ever seen," Barnes said, "and it’s going on nationwide." …

Bedford’s ruling was the latest in a string of court decisions against the Georgia law. Last year, U.S. District Judge Harold L. Murphy issued an injunction against the law, likening it to a segregation-era poll tax because the digital picture ID would cost voters $20.

After the Georgia General Assembly revised the law to issue the ID at no cost, Murphy refused to completely lift the injunction, saying the state did not have time to properly educate voters before July primaries.

In his ruling, Bedford said the law places too much of a burden on voters, regardless of certain state remedies. Voters could cast ballots without identification, but they would have to return to an elections office within two days to prove their identity or forfeit their vote.

"Any attempt by the legislature to require more than what is required by the express language of our Constitution cannot withstand judicial scrutiny," Bedford said…

Why is it that Democrats always want to preserve voter fraud?

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/another-georgia-judge-throws-out-voter-photo-id

[Dilloduck]

This is a classic example on how Dems do not really wnat to stop vote fraud. the state of GA offered FREE ID's and FREE home delivery of the ID's - and it still was not good enough!


Georgia Law Requiring Voters to Show Photo ID Is Thrown Out

Judge Says Some Would Be Disenfranchised; State Plans Appeal

By Darryl Fears and Jonathan Weisman
Wednesday, September 20, 2006; Page A06

A state judge yesterday rejected a Georgia law requiring voters to show government-issued photo identification, writing in his decision, "This cannot be."

Fulton County Superior Court Judge T. Jackson Bedford Jr. said the law, pushed by Gov. Sonny Perdue (R) to fight voter fraud, violates the state constitution because it disenfranchises citizens who are otherwise qualified to vote.

State officials vowed to appeal Bedford’s ruling to the Georgia Supreme Court before the Nov. 7 general election…

Like the Georgia law, the federal legislation would almost certainly be challenged in court. A coalition of interest and civil rights groups, including the NAACP, AARP, and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, denounced the bill yesterday, saying it would disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of minority and elderly voters.

Georgia’s law was challenged by Rosalind Lake, an elderly black woman who was left partially blind after being nearly electrocuted in her home, is unable to drive and could not easily obtain a voter ID, her attorney said.

The lawyer, former governor Roy Barnes, argued that even though the state offered to deliver an ID to Lake’s home, it could not do the same for everyone who is similarly challenged.

"We have a low voter participation," said Barnes, a Democrat. "We’re going to make it more difficult?"

In previous elections, Georgians could present any one of 17 types of identification with their names and addresses, including a driver’s license, utility bill, bank statement or paycheck.

Perdue and other proponents of the law said it is needed to curtail fraud. They cited an Atlanta Journal-Constitution article that said 5,000 dead people were listed as having voted in the eight elections preceding 2000…

"This is the most sinister scheme I’ve ever seen," Barnes said, "and it’s going on nationwide." …

Bedford’s ruling was the latest in a string of court decisions against the Georgia law. Last year, U.S. District Judge Harold L. Murphy issued an injunction against the law, likening it to a segregation-era poll tax because the digital picture ID would cost voters $20.

After the Georgia General Assembly revised the law to issue the ID at no cost, Murphy refused to completely lift the injunction, saying the state did not have time to properly educate voters before July primaries.

In his ruling, Bedford said the law places too much of a burden on voters, regardless of certain state remedies. Voters could cast ballots without identification, but they would have to return to an elections office within two days to prove their identity or forfeit their vote.

"Any attempt by the legislature to require more than what is required by the express language of our Constitution cannot withstand judicial scrutiny," Bedford said…

Why is it that Democrats always want to preserve voter fraud?

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/another-georgia-judge-throws-out-voter-photo-id

They aren't avoiding fraud---- I think they are staying away from the devil. 666 and all that stuff

[Immanuel]

They aren't avoiding fraud---- I think they are staying away from the devil. 666 and all that stuff

That doesn't make a damned bit of sense.

Immie

[manu1959]

I believe that the vast majority of men and women who enter into politics do so with the best of intentions. I believe that by the time they reach the level of Congress or even State executive & legislative branches, they have had to sell their souls so many times that there is nothing left to sell.

I do not believe that they mean me harm. Not me personally (which means I am not paranoid... at least not yet) but I do believe that they are corrupt and that eventually we will have people in power who will do downright evil things and I am not yet convinced that this administration is not those people.

Immie

evil things have been done by most presidents in the last century......this same outcry occured when social security cards showed up.....

[Dilloduck]

That doesn't make a damned bit of sense.

Immie

I thought you were avoiding the "mark of the beast".

[Immanuel]

evil things have been done by most presidents in the last century......this same outcry occured when social security cards showed up.....

Yeah, I know, and possibly it appeared to those who were here at that time as things could not get any worse and that our government was betraying us, which they were but that is just a matter of opinion about the screw job we underwent with Social Insecurity and better left for another discussion. I can tell you that I can't think of how things can get anymore corrupt than our nation is today. I'm no prude, but with the sex on demand in every aspect of our lives... well... if God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah... what is that saying? he owes them an apology for letting us go this long?

I suppose in 50 years, someone will look back at me and say, "he's crazy... what is wrong with carrying this chip in my right hand", but then who cares, I'll be dead or raptured, at least I hope so. :)

Our government is corrupt. That is not just the Republicans in office, but the whole crowd. The events of today have the signs of prophecy written all over them... but then... people have been saying that for 2,000 years. Does that mean that we should just give in and zip our lips?


I thought you were avoiding the "mark of the beast".

What's that got to do with overturning a law requiring driver's licenses or some form of picture id to vote which, by the way, I fully support?

Immie

[Dilloduck]

What's that got to do with overturning a law requiring driver's licenses to vote?

Immie

It was your comparison--you tell me. I have NO idea how the mark of the beast relates to anything that we're going to figure out. I thought Jews had cornered the market on paranoia.

[Immanuel]

It was your comparison--you tell me. I have NO idea how the mark of the beast relates to anything that we're going to figure out. I thought Jews had cornered the market on paranoia.

No, it was your comparison.

RSR's article was on a completely different subject and had nothing to do with REAL ID.

And no Jews have not cornered the market on paranoia. They've cornered the market on guilt, especially the Jewish mothers. :D But, as I said, I'm not paranoid, at least not yet. Paranoia is the belief that they are out to get you. I'm not afraid that they are out to get me, but rather that this government is corrupt and is playing into the hands of prophecy.

Immie

[manu1959]

Yeah, I know, and possibly it appeared to those who were here at that time as things could not get any worse and that our government was betraying us, which they were but that is just a matter of opinion about the screw job we underwent with Social Insecurity and better left for another discussion. I can tell you that I can't think of how things can get anymore corrupt than our nation is today. I'm no prude, but with the sex on demand in every aspect of our lives... well... if God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah... what is that saying? he owes them an apology for letting us go this long?

I suppose in 50 years, someone will look back at me and say, "he's crazy... what is wrong with carrying this chip in my right hand", but then who cares, I'll be dead or raptured, at least I hope so. :)

Our government is corrupt. That is not just the Republicans in office, but the whole crowd. The events of today have the signs of prophecy written all over them... but then... people have been saying that for 2,000 years. Does that mean that we should just give in and zip our lips?

What's that got to do with overturning a law requiring driver's licenses or some form of picture id to vote which, by the way, I fully support?

Immie

having lived in a few other countries where sex is normal and violence is considered porn i could argue that is why the us is fucked up we have it exactly backwards......killing people is normal and sex is bad....

[red states rule]

No, it was your comparison.

RSR's article was on a completely different subject and had nothing to do with REAL ID.

And no Jews have not cornered the market on paranoia. They've cornered the market on guilt, especially the Jewish mothers. :D But, as I said, I'm not paranoid, at least not yet. Paranoia is the belief that they are out to get you. I'm not afraid that they are out to get me, but rather that this government is corrupt and is playing into the hands of prophecy.

Immie

It had everything to do with ID's. Why are Dems so determined to allow voter fraud? Are they so desperate they need fraud to win elections?

[Immanuel]

having lived in a few other countries where sex is normal and violence is considered porn i could argue that is why the us is fucked up we have it exactly backwards......killing people is normal and sex is bad....

I'm not so sure I would argue against you on that one. Like I said, I'm no prude, but we are definitely F'd up.

Immie

[manu1959]

I'm not so sure I would argue against you on that one. Like I said, I'm no prude, but we are definitely F'd up.

Immie

it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years......sad thing is we keep voting incumbants in.....then we expect different results.....definition of insanity that is.....

[Immanuel]

It had everything to do with ID's. Why are Dems so determined to allow voter fraud? Are they so desperate they need fraud to win elections?

But it had nothing to do with the REAL ID ACT which is what Manu, Dillo and I have been discussing.

As for Dems being determined to allow voter fraud, you would have to ask them, not me. I agree with you. They seem to be more than happy to eliminate the electronic voting machines because they have read the Democratic talking points that claim that GWB stole both elections by using the programs written for the machines... a possibility exists that these machines could be tampered with... but when other issues of voter fraud i.e. dead men voting get brought up, they don't even want to discuss it.

Of course we all know dead men don't vote but that doesn't mean someone won't vote for them.

Immie

[red states rule]

But it had nothing to do with the REAL ID ACT which is what Manu, Dillo and I have been discussing.

As for Dems being determined to allow voter fraud, you would have to ask them, not me. I agree with you. They seem to be more than happy to eliminate the electronic voting machines because they have read the Democratic talking points that claim that GWB stole both elections by using the programs written for the machines... a possibility exists that these machines could be tampered with... but when other issues of voter fraud i.e. dead men voting get brought up, they don't even want to discuss it.

Of course we all know dead men don't vote but that doesn't mean someone won't vote for them.

Immie


The state offerd the ID's for free, and offered to deliver them to the peoples home. All the state wanted was to make sure people who could legally vote were the only ones who could vote

Not illegals, not dead people, and only one vote per person

All the things the Dems are opposed to

[Immanuel]

it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years......sad thing is we keep voting incumbants in.....then we expect different results.....definition of insanity that is.....

Yeah, and I voted for GWB in 2004 expecting him to do something good in the last 4 years of his administration.

I'll admit, I'm damned sour on him, his administration and the whole political kit and kaboodle.

I know I sound like I am a crazy Jesus freak here, but this issue is really bothering me. To me it is just plain scary how close this fits in with things that have been predicted both biblically and more recent.

Revelation 13:17
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Today's version of REAL ID says that you cannot travel on airplanes without this ID card. What happens tomorrow? I can't buy a gun without the REAL ID? I can't buy food or water without it?

This is why I am sure it is not the Social Security Card although the Social Security card could be labeled the precursor to the REAL ID and the Mark of the Beast.

I have said for a long time, that I didn't fear this administration but that I feared the doors that have been opened by this administration for future administrations. Now, I am not so sure about this administration. Everyday it is one more step towards the prophecies of the Bible and we are simply denying that it is happening.

Immie

[Immanuel]

The state offerd the ID's for free, and offered to deliver them to the peoples home. All the state wanted was to make sure people who could legally vote were the only ones who could vote

Not illegals, not dead people, and only one vote per person

All the things the Dems are opposed to

Have you seen me disagree with that?

In fact, I had been about to point that out from your article. They were going to provide the ID and even deliver it. What more could anyone ask?

Immie

[manu1959]

Yeah, and I voted for GWB in 2004 expecting him to do something good in the last 4 years of his administration.

I'll admit, I'm damned sour on him, his administration and the whole political kit and kaboodle.

I know I sound like I am a crazy Jesus freak here, but this issue is really bothering me. To me it is just plain scary how close this fits in with things that have been predicted both biblically and more recent.

Revelation 13:17
so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Today's version of REAL ID says that you cannot travel on airplanes without this ID card. What happens tomorrow? I can't buy a gun without the REAL ID? I can't buy food or water without it?

This is why I am sure it is not the Social Security Card although the Social Security card could be labeled the precursor to the REAL ID and the Mark of the Beast.

I have said for a long time, that I didn't fear this administration but that I feared the doors that have been opened by this administration for future administrations. Now, I am not so sure about this administration. Everyday it is one more step towards the prophecies of the Bible and we are simply denying that it is happening.

Immie

you can't fly without an id now.....you can't drive.....you can't cash a check.....you can't get a job.....you can't use a credit card.....you can't buy booze or cigs.....seems the end is nigh.....

btw the id will be issued by the state not the feds all the feds are saying is your id must meet a set of minimum standards.....several states already meet those standards the ones that are objecting are objecting dude to the cost to upgrade their id system.....the are looking for some $...

also you can't buy or sell without money....maybe money is the sign of the beast....

anyway, isn't the end just the begining of a better life for christians?......

[Immanuel]

it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years......sad thing is we keep voting incumbants in.....then we expect different results.....definition of insanity that is.....

I quoted this earlier but remembered something I wanted to say and didn't.

Yes, it is a sad thing that we keep voting in incumbents but, unfortunately, we are not offered other choices to a great extent. Sure, there is someone running against the current incumbent, but that someone is generally just switching from one political job to another and is hardly that much different than the incumbent.

Immie

[manu1959]

I quoted this earlier but remembered something I wanted to say and didn't.

Yes, it is a sad thing that we keep voting in incumbents but, unfortunately, we are not offered other choices to a great extent. Sure, there is someone running against the current incumbent, but that someone is generally just switching from one political job to another and is hardly that much different than the incumbent.

Immie

true ...but change is good.....i have been voting against the california girls for years.....

[Immanuel]

you can't fly without an id now.....you can't drive.....you can't cash a check.....you can't get a job.....you can't use a credit card.....you can't buy booze or cigs.....seems the end is nigh.....

True, but this is a consolidation of power into the hands of the federal government. I said it earlier, but the problem I have is that you don't have a choice. More power to the Feds that is my issue. At least when it is the states it is not one agency running all of our lives.


btw the id will be issued by the state not the feds all the feds are saying is your id must meet a set of minimum standards.....several states already meet those standards the ones that are objecting are objecting dude to the cost to upgrade their id system.....the are looking for some $...

As, I said earlier, I don't trust what they are telling us. Once they have control there is no getting it back. It will go from needing a federally "approved" ID to fly to God knows what. Also, this is creating two classes of citizenship... those who have and those who do not... what happens to those who have not?


alos you can't buy or sell without money....maybe money is the sign of the beast....

They had currency throughout Biblical times especially the times that Revelation was written. If it were currency, the Book of Revelation would have stated that it was currency.


anyway, isn't the end just the begining of a better life for christians?......

Not, if you take the Mark of the Beast! :D

Immie

[Immanuel]

true ...but change is good.....i have been voting against the california girls for years.....

I left my beloved birth state not too long after the California Girls usurped power.

Immie

[manu1959]

I left my beloved birth state not too long after the California Girls usurped power.

Immie

born and raised in the bay area.....would never leave.....plus screwing with liberals is sport for me.....and the lake is stocked....

[red states rule]

born and raised in the bay area.....would never leave.....plus screwing with liberals is sport for me.....and the lake is stocked....

Screw them? You slice, dice, chop, grind, fry, bake, and broil them

Then you really let loose on them :lol:

[manu1959]

True, but this is a consolidation of power into the hands of the federal government. I said it earlier, but the problem I have is that you don't have a choice. More power to the Feds that is my issue. At least when it is the states it is not one agency running all of our lives.

the power is already consolidated ...you can't fly without an id


As, I said earlier, I don't trust what they are telling us. Once they have control there is no getting it back. It will go from needing a federally "approved" ID to fly to God knows what. Also, this is creating two classes of citizenship... those who have and those who do not... what happens to those who have not?

there are already two classes if you don't have an id you dont fly



They had currency throughout Biblical times especially the times that Revelation was written. If it were currency, the Book of Revelation would have stated that it was currency.

figured you would bust me on that one


Not, if you take the Mark of the Beast! :D

can mine be a bunny:laugh2:


Immie

[manu1959]

Screw them? You slice, dice, chop, grind, fry, bake, and broil them

Then you really let loose on them :lol:

all you have to do is tell them you voted for bush and that kerry was a traitor....they pretty much go mental....

[Immanuel]

born and raised in the bay area.....would never leave.....plus screwing with liberals is sport for me.....and the lake is stocked....

I was born in Santa Maria.

Grew up in areas from Oakland moving South eventually to San Jose. Left in 1993 to raise my children closer to their grandparents who had moved to Florida. I don't care about fishing but I miss sailing on the lakes. There are a lot of lakes in Florida, but you can't swim or sail in them as they are infested with gators and even worse poisonous snakes.

Immie

[red states rule]

all you have to do is tell them you voted for bush and that kerry was a traitor....they pretty much go mental....

True

I hope it will not be harder to make them melt down after a Republican wins in 08, and the myth of the Clintons is swept into the dustbin of history

[manu1959]

I was born in Santa Maria.

Grew up in areas from Oakland moving South eventually to San Jose. Left in 1993 to raise my children closer to their grandparents who had moved to Florida. I don't care about fishing but I miss sailing on the lakes. There are a lot of lakes in Florida, but you can't swim or sail in them as they are infested with gators and even worse poisonous snakes.

Immie

went to university in san luis obispo.....spent some time fishing in santa maria....lived in oakland, berkeley and piedmont for a time......live on the other side of the tunnel now.....

gators and snakes......yikes.....i think about moving but the climate is just too nice.....unless i moved to the south of france or the spanish riviera.....

[Immanuel]

the power is already consolidated ...you can't fly without an id

Yeah, but the id's come from the states and are not controlled by the Federal Government. Despite your assertion that ID's will remain under the control of the States... well, let's just say, I am skeptical.


there are already two classes if you don't have an id you dont fly

And soon there are going to be those who eat and those who don't eat or rather those who must steal in order to obtain food.



figured you would bust me on that one

Finally!!


can mine be a bunny:laugh2:

Haha, no, yours like everyone else's will have the same three digits and you must have them on your hand or your forehead... but we'll give you a choice hand or forehead?

Immie

[manu1959]

True

I hope it will not be harder to make them melt down after a Republican wins in 08, and the myth of the Clintons is swept into the dustbin of history

well a republican won't win california....and that is all these myopic twits care about......then they will go on their blue state red state rant again and threaten to move......pussies never back up their threats with action...

[manu1959]

Yeah, but the id's come from the states and are not controlled by the Federal Government. Despite your assertion that ID's will remain under the control of the States... well, let's just say, I am skeptical.

And soon there are going to be those who eat and those who don't eat or rather those who must steal in order to obtain food.

Finally!!

Haha, no, yours like everyone else's will have the same three digits and you must have them on your hand or your forehead... but we'll give you a choice hand or forehead?

Immie

only three digits.....hell only 999 people will get marked ....my odds are looking pretty good.....

[Classact]

Jesus Christ I have three 000-06-6060 in my Social Security card number and some Democrat is probably using it and my name to vote in a half dozen states where I have lived, owned or rented property, not to mention that the number may have been provided to illegal aliens.

Yesterday I took my son for his drivers permit examination and the gvt man behind the desk demanded photos, birth certificate, social security card (original), health exam by private doctor, eye exam by private doctor, my drivers licence number and money to process the test. Then he checked my sons eyes in a machine and then sent him to another room where another man made him look at a chart and point in directions of capital E's on a chart. The gvt guy could take my son's SSAN number and sell it in CA or any place else for an illegal to use if he wanted to for profit. Any number of persons could assume my son's identity through illegal use of his number from school sources, the gvt guy or medical/dental facilities and he nor I would be the wiser since he will not pay federal tax (Puerto Ricans don't pay fed tax) and he will probably not contribute to SS until he graduates college unless he takes a summer job. I would like a REAL ID to assure that the stupid SSAN# is protected equal to Puerto Rico drivers license standards and cannot understand why anyone would not?

What is wrong with that? What is so hard about that? If the government requires a number to assure you exist as a citizen then why is it bad to identify the citizen belonging to the number? Why shouldn't a citizen identify themselves as a citizen in order to vote. The US constitution the "people of the several states" vote but Amendments to the Constitution clearly state "CITIZENS" voting rights and not people voting rights. One must prove they are a citizen to vote and to do that one needs a frigging valid gvt identification as a citizen.

[Immanuel]

Jesus Christ I have three 000-06-6060 in my Social Security card number and some Democrat is probably using it and my name to vote in a half dozen states where I have lived, owned or rented property, not to mention that the number may have been provided to illegal aliens.

Yesterday I took my son for his drivers permit examination and the gvt man behind the desk demanded photos, birth certificate, social security card (original), health exam by private doctor, eye exam by private doctor, my drivers licence number and money to process the test. Then he checked my sons eyes in a machine and then sent him to another room where another man made him look at a chart and point in directions of capital E's on a chart. The gvt guy could take my son's SSAN number and sell it in CA or any place else for an illegal to use if he wanted to for profit. Any number of persons could assume my son's identity through illegal use of his number from school sources, the gvt guy or medical/dental facilities and he nor I would be the wiser since he will not pay federal tax (Puerto Ricans don't pay fed tax) and he will probably not contribute to SS until he graduates college unless he takes a summer job. I would like a REAL ID to assure that the stupid SSAN# is protected equal to Puerto Rico drivers license standards and cannot understand why anyone would not?

What is wrong with that? What is so hard about that? If the government requires a number to assure you exist as a citizen then why is it bad to identify the citizen belonging to the number? Why shouldn't a citizen identify themselves as a citizen in order to vote. The US constitution the "people of the several states" vote but Amendments to the Constitution clearly state "CITIZENS" voting rights and not people voting rights. One must prove they are a citizen to vote and to do that one needs a frigging valid gvt identification as a citizen.

If they can do all of that with your SSN (why are you and JD now using SSAN?) what the hell makes you think they won't find a way to do so with your REAL ID number? It may take them six months or even a year, but before long they will have perfected counterfeit REAL ID's and then what?

I have said it time and time again, I am all for requiring picture ID's to vote. My opposition to this act is what the government is heading towards, what they can do with this. I no longer trust my government and for me that is a worrisome thing. The people who are running our government today have taken many steps towards reducing our freedoms. First it was the Patriot Act which they told us was for our own good; followed by NSA Wiretapping and now an act that is designed to implement control of no one except the citizens of the United States.

I am consistently berated on this site for saying such things. RSR has asked me many times, "What freedoms have you lost?" well that is hard to answer today, because it has been a gradual thing. It is like the old saying that you can't boil a live frog by throwing it into a boiling pot of water, but you can by placing it in a cool pot and turning up the heat slowly. Gradually you will cook that frog if you place it in cool water and turn up the heat. Throw it in a boiling pot and it will jump out.

Conservatives on site claim there is no need to worry that this is only aimed at preventing illegal aliens, but I'm sorry I'm just plain skeptical of what the people I voted for are doing now.

{edit}

And just for the record, I would be a thousand times more worried, if this were being implemented by a John Kerry or Teddy Kennedy Administration! But should I be?

Immie

[Classact]

If they can do all of that with your SSN (why are you and JD now using SSAN?) what the hell makes you think they won't find a way to do so with your REAL ID number? It may take them six months or even a year, but before long they will have perfected counterfeit REAL ID's and then what?I think you make a poor argument... I'll equate it to a credit card or debit card... they haven't gained access to mine and I've had them more than six months.


I have said it time and time again, I am all for requiring picture ID's to vote. My opposition to this act is what the government is heading towards, what they can do with this. I no longer trust my government and for me that is a worrisome thing. The people who are running our government today have taken many steps towards reducing our freedoms. First it was the Patriot Act which they told us was for our own good; followed by NSA Wiretapping and now an act that is designed to implement control of no one except the citizens of the United States.

I am consistently berated on this site for saying such things. RSR has asked me many times, "What freedoms have you lost?" well that is hard to answer today, because it has been a gradual thing. It is like the old saying that you can't boil a live frog by throwing it into a boiling pot of water, but you can by placing it in a cool pot and turning up the heat slowly. Gradually you will cook that frog if you place it in cool water and turn up the heat. Throw it in a boiling pot and it will jump out.I'm with RSR also... I fear Hollywood and commie college professors way more than the government. Government is way to inefficient to use any personal information they may collect from citizens... government is really safe in areas of information collection on persons in America because no one ideology controls government at one time. Clearly we would not publicly know about secret government surveillance if it were not for that fact. If, at any time a government official like Prez Bush would like to spy on individual citizens he could do it by only working with those trusted in his fold and you would not know about it so the argument makes little sense that the government is invading your privacy... why would a Republican President share with Democrats the fact that he was spying if he were going to spy on citizens that were not suspected of crime or terror? If a Rep or Dem wanted to spy on the opposite party they would do it with "friendlies" and unless discovered no one would ever know about it.


Conservatives on site claim there is no need to worry that this is only aimed at preventing illegal aliens, but I'm sorry I'm just plain skeptical of what the people I voted for are doing now.

{edit}

And just for the record, I would be a thousand times more worried, if this were being implemented by a John Kerry or Teddy Kennedy Administration! But should I be?

Immie I think you worry way too much and I appreciate your added edit. I think the government should have "secret" surveillance programs and think they should remain secret as long as both parties are informed about the basics of the program. When a political figure, regardless of level of power takes secret surveillance on citizens without venting the basics of the program to opposition party then I worry about why he/she would not want to share.

I agree with Prez Bush limiting those he briefed because there are those who will make the "secret" front page on the NY Times and kill the program.

The REAL ID is no more alarming to me than my Credit Union having and sharing my information that secures my money. The REAL ID would do the same thing for my citizenship that my credit card does for my money. If you share all of your most personal information with the government by mail to the tax collectors then why not trust an ID as much as you trust a tax collector at state of federal level?

[Immanuel]

I think you make a poor argument... I'll equate it to a credit card or debit card... they haven't gained access to mine and I've had them more than six months.

Well, then I guess you have not been the victim of credit card fraud, or identity theft so far. Trust me... it happens, I know people who have had it happen and in fact, I had my wallet stolen... by kids I am sure because they spent 70 bucks at a liquor store and tossed the wallet.


I'm with RSR also... I fear Hollywood and commie college professors way more than the government. Government is way to inefficient to use any personal information they may collect from citizens... government is really safe in areas of information collection on persons in America because no one ideology controls government at one time. Clearly we would not publicly know about secret government surveillance if it were not for that fact. If, at any time a government official like Prez Bush would like to spy on individual citizens he could do it by only working with those trusted in his fold and you would not know about it so the argument makes little sense that the government is invading your privacy... why would a Republican President share with Democrats the fact that he was spying if he were going to spy on citizens that were not suspected of crime or terror? If a Rep or Dem wanted to spy on the opposite party they would do it with "friendlies" and unless discovered no one would ever know about it.

You make a good point about the inefficiencies of government. I will grant you that, but it still doesn't make me feel any better. As for Hollywood, I don't worry about them at all. No one takes them seriously and they don't have access to personal information about citizens. College professors? No worry about them either. Students in college generally are smart enough to make up their own minds. They may be influenced by professors but when they get out on their own they tend to take their own paths.


I think you worry way too much and I appreciate your added edit. I think the government should have "secret" surveillance programs and think they should remain secret as long as both parties are informed about the basics of the program. When a political figure, regardless of level of power takes secret surveillance on citizens without venting the basics of the program to opposition party then I worry about why he/she would not want to share.

I agree with Prez Bush limiting those he briefed because there are those who will make the "secret" front page on the NY Times and kill the program.

The REAL ID is no more alarming to me than my Credit Union having and sharing my information that secures my money. The REAL ID would do the same thing for my citizenship that my credit card does for my money. If you share all of your most personal information with the government by mail to the tax collectors then why not trust an ID as much as you trust a tax collector at state of federal level?

I have not denied that the government already has the access to my personal information. My concern here is what they intend on doing with it and why they are attempting to consolidate control now. I just don't believe "we are doing it for your own good". Bullshit! is all I can say to that. I want to know what is in it for them, first and foremost.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

No, it was your comparison.

RSR's article was on a completely different subject and had nothing to do with REAL ID.

And no Jews have not cornered the market on paranoia. They've cornered the market on guilt, especially the Jewish mothers. :D But, as I said, I'm not paranoid, at least not yet. Paranoia is the belief that they are out to get you. I'm not afraid that they are out to get me, but rather that this government is corrupt and is playing into the hands of prophecy.

Immie

I think you are making a huge mistake to think that a REAL ID has anything to do with the mark of the beast (if such a thing even exists). It DOES NOT MATCH the description in Revelations.
http://www.markbeast.com/

Jesus preached love and salvation. If you beileve what he says there is no place for fear nor guilt.
( Catholics win hands down on guilt--it's been pounded into them for years )

[Immanuel]

I think you are making a huge mistake to think that a REAL ID has anything to do with the mark of the beast (if such a thing even exists). It DOES NOT MATCH the description in Revelations.
http://www.markbeast.com/

Jesus preached love and salvation. If you beileve what he says there is no place for fear nor guilt.
( Catholics win hands down on guilt--it's been pounded into them for years )

Having scanned your link, can you tell me what it is about the Mark of the Beast that you feel does not match with the REAL ID ACT so that I can know how to respond to this?

Also, let me clarify, since I tried to do so in a single post that you may have missed last night, the REAL ID may not be the Mark itself, but it may be the precursor to the Mark. It is opening the hearts of citizens to accepting such a mark. There are already plans (and I don't have time to look this up for a link at the moment, but will later if you want) to begin implementing the insertion of our medical histories on a chip underneath the skin of your arm. Is that the Mark? Who knows for sure as it was not made crystal clear in Revelation.

The REAL ID ACT says that at the moment the DHS is only going to require this for flights, Federal courthouses/office buildings and Nuclear power plants BUT it also says (and indicates) that this will change in the future. So how are things going to change? Will I someday soon be required to show this National ID card to buy the basic necessities of life like tickets to the Bucs games? :D Where exactly is this going? Where will it stop?

Good point on no place for fear or guilt in the life of a Christian, but I'm still human. I know I am guilty of sin... but I won't elaborate here. ;) I also know that Christ has redeemed me from that sin or at least I pray that I am among the elect of God.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Having scanned your link, can you tell me what it is about the Mark of the Beast that you feel does not match with the REAL ID ACT so that I can know how to respond to this?

Also, let me clarify, since I tried to do so in a single post that you may have missed last night, the REAL ID may not be the Mark itself, but it may be the precursor to the Mark. It is opening the hearts of citizens to accepting such a mark. There are already plans (and I don't have time to look this up for a link at the moment, but will later if you want) to begin implementing the insertion of our medical histories on a chip underneath the skin of your arm. Is that the Mark? Who knows for sure as it was not made crystal clear in Revelation.

The REAL ID ACT says that at the moment the DHS is only going to require this for flights, Federal courthouses/office buildings and Nuclear power plants BUT it also says (and indicates) that this will change in the future. So how are things going to change? Will I someday soon be required to show this National ID card to buy the basic necessities of life like tickets to the Bucs games? :D Where exactly is this going? Where will it stop?

Good point on no place for fear or guilt in the life of a Christian, but I'm still human. I know I am guilty of sin... but I won't elaborate here. ;) I also know that Christ has redeemed me from that sin or at least I pray that I am among the elect of God.

Immie
“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17

That's pretty specific for those who are serious about literal translations.

[Immanuel]

“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17

That's pretty specific for those who are serious about literal translations.

And again, where is this REAL ID ACT headed? As I said, they are already working on implementing a requirement that you have your medical history, and I will add to this, and OTHER pertinent information inserted in a chip underneath the skin, for now they talk about arm... but where will it be when we get to the implementation? Will they be "consolidating" these two programs in the future "to save costs"? Will you need to have this chip to Sh*t in the future?

You are not going to get Christians to accept having a chip implanted underneath their skin especially not the Christian Right today, but if you convince them that there is nothing sinister involved in this and take one slow step at a time, you will eventually convince a large percentage of the population to go along with this... for the good of the people. Hell, we already have quite a few members on this site, that believe this is only for the good of the people.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

And again, where is this REAL ID ACT headed? As I said, they are already working on implementing a requirement that you have your medical history, and I will add to this, and OTHER pertinent information inserted in a chip underneath the skin, for now they talk about arm... but where will it be when we get to the implementation? Will they be "consolidating" these two programs in the future "to save costs"? Will you need to have this chip to Sh*t in the future?

You are not going to get Christians to accept having a chip implanted underneath their skin especially not the Christian Right today, but if you convince them that there is nothing sinister involved in this and take one slow step at a time, you will eventually convince a large percentage of the population to go along with this... for the good of the people. Hell, we already have quite a few members on this site, that believe this is only for the good of the people.

Immie

Can't argue with anyone who thinks REAL ID might be the road to eternal damnation.

[Immanuel]

Can't argue with anyone who thinks REAL ID might be the road to eternal damnation.

Good! Then we agree! Don't take the Mark. :) I only wish I was as confident as I am trying to appear.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Good! Then we agree! Don't take the Mark. :) I only wish I was as confident as I am trying to appear.

Immie

If someone wants to tatoo 666 on my forehead I won't let them----better ?:laugh2:

[Immanuel]

If someone wants to tatoo 666 on my forehead I won't let them----better ?:laugh2:


Me either... but I wonder if I have the courage to prevent them from doing so before they stick my head under the blade of a guillotine. :(

Immie

[manu1959]

well if it turns out that there is no god ..... then there is no mark of the beast and there is nothing to worry about.....

[Dilloduck]

Me either... but I wonder if I have the courage to prevent them from doing so before they stick my head under the blade of a guillotine. :(

Immie

damn Immie---- you get no comfort from your faith ? We really need to start a different thread .

[JohnDoe]

well if it turns out that there is no god ..... then there is no mark of the beast and there is nothing to worry about..... I don't believe so.

Let me get this straight:

You trust the SAME government that allowed all of the illegals to enter this country by ignoring the laws on the books and the same gvt that allowed 911 terrorists to roam free in our country and the same gvt that allowed millions of veterans personal and financial information on a data base be stolen with implementing Real ID with no parameters to stop them on what info or what tracking they choose to do on us?

May I ask, how do you forsee Real Id or eventually a National id helping to solve terrorism from occuring again?

And also, how do you forsee the gvt using real id to help our illegal immigration problem? Do you see them stopping all of us where ever we go being stopped by cops and asked for our "papers" or national id card and if we do not have one then rounded up and shipped out of the country?

How EXACTLY do you actually see Real id or eventually a National id card helping us and our safety?

I am getting some work done around here, will come back to see your or anyone elses answer to all of this....

jd

[Immanuel]

damn Immie---- you get no comfort from your faith ? We really need to start a different thread .

When I am feeling faith"full", I get a lot of comfort from my faith, but at the moment, I feel like the weight of the entire world is on my shoulers. You do realize, I hope, that even John the Baptist, questioned his faith!

I'm feeling as if I have abandoned God to some extent.

Immie

[manu1959]

I don't believe so.

Let me get this straight:

You trust the SAME government that allowed all of the illegals to enter this country by ignoring the laws on the books and the same gvt that allowed 911 terrorists to roam free in our country and the same gvt that allowed millions of veterans personal and financial information on a data base be stolen with implementing Real ID with no parameters to stop them on what info or what tracking they choose to do on us?

May I ask, how do you forsee Real Id or eventually a National id helping to solve terrorism from occuring again?

And also, how do you forsee the gvt using real id to help our illegal immigration problem? Do you see them stopping all of us where ever we go being stopped by cops and asked for our "papers" or national id card and if we do not have one then rounded up and shipped out of the country?

How EXACTLY do you actually see Real id or eventually a National id card helping us and our safety?

I am getting some work done around here, will come back to see your or anyone elses answer to all of this....

jd


i already have an id that complies with the law....california implimented it years ago.....

as for the rest of your questions.....i trust no one.....and i will bet you whatever you want that nothing will ever be done about our off the books labour force....and no one will ever be able to stop terrorisim......

[manu1959]

When I am feeling faith"full", I get a lot of comfort from my faith, but at the moment, I feel like the weight of the entire world is on my shoulers. You do realize, I hope, that even John the Baptist, questioned his faith!

I'm feeling as if I have abandoned God to some extent.

Immie

doubts and fear are good....they make one take a hard look at their life and actions.....you will emerge from this introspective moment stronger than you entered it....

all the best in your journey....

[Dilloduck]

I don't believe so.

Let me get this straight:

You trust the SAME government that allowed all of the illegals to enter this country by ignoring the laws on the books and the same gvt that allowed 911 terrorists to roam free in our country and the same gvt that allowed millions of veterans personal and financial information on a data base be stolen with implementing Real ID with no parameters to stop them on what info or what tracking they choose to do on us?

May I ask, how do you forsee Real Id or eventually a National id helping to solve terrorism from occuring again?

And also, how do you forsee the gvt using real id to help our illegal immigration problem? Do you see them stopping all of us where ever we go being stopped by cops and asked for our "papers" or national id card and if we do not have one then rounded up and shipped out of the country?

How EXACTLY do you actually see Real id or eventually a National id card helping us and our safety?

I am getting some work done around here, will come back to see your or anyone elses answer to all of this....

jd


Even a token attempt to know who is a legal citizen and entitled to certain rights is a step in the right direction (are we a nation of laws or not? ). Fearing that our government is going to do something sinister with it assumes that they can pull their shit together and destroy me. I don't think they can. I can adjust to whatever shit they come up with --. People limit their OWN freedoms FAR more than any government does anyway.

[Immanuel]

i already have an id that complies with the law....california implimented it years ago.....

as for the rest of your questions.....i trust no one.....and i will bet you whatever you want that nothing will ever be done about our off the books labour force....and no one will ever be able to stop terrorisim......

Oh? Like there is any "thinking" human being on the planet that is going to take you up on that bet regardless of the odds you give!


doubts and fear are good....they make one take a hard look at their life and actions.....you will emerge from this introspective moment stronger than you entered it....

all the best in your journey....

I agree completely, but in the meantime, I'm still feeling beaten down.

Immie

[manu1959]

Even a token attempt to know who is a legal citizen and entitled to certain rights is a step in the right direction (are we a nation of laws or not? ). Fearing that our government is going to do something sinister with it assumes that they can pull their shit together and destroy me. I don't think they can. I can adjust to whatever shit they come up with --. People limit their OWN freedoms FAR more than any government does anyway.

no shit....why is everyone afraid of a group of people that can not win the war on drugs, the war on illegal imigration, the war on terrorisim, ballance a budget pass a law without pork.....hell if the start in i will just become a pot smoking, illegal alien terrorist...they will never catch me....

[Immanuel]

no shit....why is everyone afraid of a group of people that can not win the war on drugs, the war on illegal imigration, the war on terrorisim, ballance a budget pass a law without pork.....hell if the start in i will just become a pot smoking, illegal alien terrorist...they will never catch me....

Two words:

Vincent Foster. ;)

Immie

[manu1959]

Oh? Like there is any "thinking" human being on the planet that is going to take you up on that bet regardless of the odds you give!

I agree completely, but in the meantime, I'm still feeling beaten down.

Immie


well if you won't take the bet then you should not "fear" the inept.....

as for the second issue

you can always do what i do.....decide not to be beaten down....all you can do is play as hard as you can from this moment forword.....

the past is....

[Immanuel]

the past is....

... repeatable!

Ecclesiastes 1:9
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

:D

{edit}


well if you won't take the bet then you should not "fear" the inept.....

I just thought of this, so call me dense, but it is the inept that we need to fear the most! The inept can do the most damage without even trying. The inept can destroy lives and not even consider the fact that they are doing so.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

several states already comply including moon bat california......have you googled real ID and what it is actually trying to do?.....

OK.

You have said that you basically don't care about this because YOUR STATE complies with this ALREADY.

You also state that illegals drove to your home and probably have licences.

IF YOUR STATE has complied already with Real id then how in the hell do these illegals drive with licenses?

How has real id helped ONE IOTA to stop illegal immigration in your state?

And on top of this you never answered how you can FORSEE real ID helping the situation with terrorism or illegal immigrants? PLEASE answer this...

Do you see all of us being required to carry id at all times, cuz real id is only needed to get in federal buildings or airplanes or nuke plants?

Do you forsee all of us citizens being required to show the real id to police, who can stop us at any time to ask for it?

WHAT in the hell do you actually forsee as it being a help for either of the categoreies of immigration or terrorists?

AND if it is not going to stop terrorists or illegals in any manner WHY in the heck to you support it?

I will tell ya what i think, and that is that it is a SHAM....making you and others think they are doing something WHEN they are NOT....

WHY don't they just follow the laws on the books already and go after the employers who are breaking the law? Stop the jobs, stop the illegal immigrants....

And also, on another thread you mentioned that libertarianism has some merit, basically.

if you believe such, then why the heck are you a supporter of real id? (if you are?) Why force down Maine's throat a federally inspired id card that YOU THINK is going to help round up illegals somehow? Take care of your own state and your own problems with illegals....shoot, make it where everyone has to have a cali id and make it where you have to show it just to walk down the street for all i care, if you and the other california citizens think that it will help YOU with YOUR immigration problem...but to make or insist all other states do it too? That does not sound like a Republic to me and it is an overreach imo...

again, go after the law breakers....those that hire the illegals and the illegals themselves....

Is a database on gun owners ok with you? if it is not, then why is something like this?

my questions are for everyone to answer and directed at all that have participated on this thread, not just you! :)

jd

[JohnDoe]

manu, you around?

[Yurt]

manu, you around?

are you? you go around or something?

[Dilloduck]

it will help YOU with YOUR immigration problem...


jd

I finally get it---it's like a NIMBY argument. You see it as a problem for the citizens of the states who have to deal with the shit. Not Maine's.

[JohnDoe]

I finally get it---it's like a NIMBY argument. You see it as a problem for the citizens of the states who have to deal with the shit. Not Maine's.I see it as a National problem concentrated in some of the states..... the problem should be addressed where it needs addressing, and the feds should not overreach...

gotta go for a bit, the hubby wants to use the computer... if you respond, I will catch it later...fyi :)

jd

[Dilloduck]

I see it as a National problem concentrated in some of the states..... the problem should be addressed where it needs addressing, and the feds should not overreach...

gotta go for a bit, the hubby wants to use the computer... if you respond, I will catch it later...fyi :)

jd

I remember not being real crazy about bailing out New York too. No problem---print more fake money ! :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

I remember not being real crazy about bailing out New York too. No problem---print more fake money ! :laugh2:are we talking about money help or are we talking about real id alla future National id card that will solve nothing?

jd

[Dilloduck]

are we talking about money help or are we talking about real id alla future National id card that will solve nothing?

jd

One part of the country helping another part.

[JohnDoe]

One part of the country helping another part.
And how is me, in Maine, required to get Real id in order to fly, gonna help you?

jd

[Dilloduck]

And how is me, in Maine, required to get Real id in order to fly, gonna help you?

jd

never mind the ID----just send money.

[JohnDoe]

never mind the ID----just send money.well then, let me squeeze the turnip and send ya what i get out of it! hahahaha.... or why not just have the feds print more?

[Dilloduck]

:laugh2:
well then, let me squeeze the turnip and send ya what i get out of it! hahahaha.... or why not just have the feds print more?

how about y'all spring for housing our labor force next year ?

[JohnDoe]

:laugh2:

how about y'all spring for housing our labor force next year ?

I don't think they would or could survive in the cold and the 40 plus inches of snow we got here in just december....

plus not much Lawn business or agriculture work up here this time of the year! lol :D

jd

[Dilloduck]

I don't think they would or could survive in the cold and the 40 plus inches of snow we got here in just december....

plus not much Lawn business or agriculture work up here this time of the year! lol :D

jd

no no----Maine can just send us a check and we'll make sure your veggies are all picked for ya.

[JohnDoe]

:laugh2:

how about y'all spring for housing our labor force next year ?and also, you're the one who let them in to your state, you need to kick them out!

:laugh2:

Actually, i believe it is the job of the feds, the Justice Dept to enforce our immigration laws and appt AG's in each state to enforce the laws on the books?

But they have obviously been told by this president, and other presidents to ignore it....

must be that free speech money going in their pockets from the businesses that hire these illegals that's keeping them from doing it, huh?

jd

[Dilloduck]

and also, your the one who let them in to your state, you need to kick them out!

:laugh2:

Actually, i believe it is the job of the feds, the Justice Dept to enforce our immigration laws and appt AG's in each state to enforce the laws on the books?

But they have obviously been told by this president, and other presidents to ignore it....

must be that free speech money going in their pockets from the businesses that hire these illegals that's keeping them from doing it, huh?

jd

ah capitalism---gotta love it.

[JohnDoe]

ah capitalism---gotta love it.it's got its positives, along with alot of negatives.....

jd