Should the federal government enact Real ID licenses?

[5stringJeff]

From the thread Real ID Licenses (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=10735):

Should the federal government enact these licenses?

[82Marine89]

Should the federal government enact these licenses?

No. By not having motor vehicles at the time the Constitution was adopted, there is no provision for drivers licenses at the federal level. That means it is covered by the 10th Amendment and the power to issue them is given to the states.

For reference purposes...

Amendment 10

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[manu1959]

From the thread Real ID Licenses (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=10735):

Should the federal government enact these licenses?

most states have licenses which already comply with these rules....

only a handful are objecting due to the cost of changing their printing equipment which means if the feds pay to upgrade their system the will comply......

california isn't even objecting....

[Mr. P]

Doesn't this sound so "1984"? Does to me.


The Department of Homeland Security REAL-ID, March 1, 2007, (PDF, 24 pages - 296 KB ) The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Privacy Office is conducting a Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) on the rule proposed by DHS to implement the REAL ID Act. The authority for this PIA is Subsection 4 of Section 222 of the Homeland Security Act of 2002, as amended, which calls for the Chief Privacy Officer of the Department of Homeland Security to conduct a “privacy impact assessment of proposed rules of the Department.” This analysis reflects the framework of the Privacy Office’s Fair Information Principles, which are: Transparency, Individual Participation, Purpose Specification, Minimization, Use Limitation, Data Quality and Integrity, Security, and Accountability and Auditing. The Privacy Office conducts PIAs, whether under Subsection 4 of Section 222 or under Section 208 of the E-Government Act, to ensure that DHS is fully transparent about how its proposed rules, final rules, and intended information technology systems may affect privacy and to review alternative approaches and technologies that may minimize the privacy impact on individuals. This PIA examines the manner and method by which the personal information of American drivers and identification (ID) holders will be collected, used, disseminated, and maintained pursuant to the proposed rule issued under the REAL ID Act. This PIA will be updated, as necessary, when the rule is final.

[manu1959]

Doesn't this sound so "1984"? Does to me.

it does ..... my cali drivers license already does this..... there is a magnetic strip on the back with all my info on it......and the license is harder to counterfit....some states still have olde paper licenses.....

don't really see the big deal here....

[April15]

The program will be instituted even though it will be the equivalent of pissing on yourself in a black pair of pants. A nice warm feeling that nobody will notice.

[Mr. P]

it does ..... my cali drivers license already does this..... there is a magnetic strip on the back with all my info on it......and the license is harder to counterfit....some states still have olde paper licenses.....

don't really see the big deal here....

Here's the big deal...right from the mouth of DHS...


What is the difference between a REAL ID and an enhanced driver’s license (EDL)?
The EDL will serve as a limited use international travel document that will contain a vicinity Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chip and a MRZ used to facilitate border crossing and verification by Customs and Border Protection at a land and sea port of entry.

DHS has worked to align REAL ID and EDL requirements. Now that the REAL ID final rulemaking has been published, DHS will ensure that State-issued EDLs meet REAL ID compliance benchmarks over time. However, there are some key distinctions between the two programs that should be noted. While the REAL ID requires proof of lawful status in the United States, the State-issued EDL will require that the card holder be a U.S. citizen.

An EDL will also include an international document standard MRZ to allow CBP officers to read the card electronically if RFID is not available. The EDL MRZ is different from the REAL ID 2-D PDF-417 MRZ which used by State and local law enforcement officials.

This is TOTAL BULLSHIT!

[typomaniac]

Of course, we'd have to link these ID systems to your bank accounts, so if you're caught doing anything for which you can be fined, your account will be debited immediately.

Have a nice day! :)

[Mr. P]

Of course, we'd have to link these ID systems to your bank accounts, so if you're caught doing anything for which you can be fined, your account will be debited immediately.

Have a nice day! :)

I see it going there and farther...

Folks, DHS themselves say this is only for access to Federal buildings, air transportation or entry into a Nuc plant...BUT if you have a passport that will work...QUESTION! Who the fuck issued passports to some of the 9-11 crew? THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT DID!

Now if we can get by with a passport WHY go this route? Again, I have to wonder what this IS really all about. It ain't security..IMO.

[LiberalNation]

Passports are exspensive as hell tho. Better to go with license.

[Mr. P]

Passports are exspensive as hell tho. Better to go with license.
Yes, but how many times do you go to a Nuc plant? Or a Federal Building? Or fly?

Will the Feds hold Federal court outside for those who don't have their papers?
Will they shut down the U.S. Air transportation system?

[Kathianne]

From the thread Real ID Licenses (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=10735):

Should the federal government enact these licenses?

Nope, sounds like a national ID card to me. I was interested in this back in 2001, seems the Bush team has also reversed itself since then:

http://www.cato.org/tech/tk/010928-tk.html


...The most serious problem with national ID mandates remains the troubling ramifications for civil liberties. As former California Rep. Tom Campbell, currently a Stanford University law professor, has recently argued, "If you have an ID card, it is solely for the purpose of allowing the government to compel you to produce it. This would essentially give the government the power to demand that we show our papers. It is a very dangerous thing."

Indeed it is. As David Kopel, research director for the Colorado-based Independence Institute, has similarly argued, "We beat the Germans in World War II. We don't want to be a show-us-your-papers kind of country." And as Cato Institute President Ed Crane told the Washington Times recently, "We live in a free society and our first right is a certain level of privacy. We shouldn't be forced to show our papers wherever we go." While proponents of national ID cards will contend that such concerns are overblown, there is no denying that a national ID card could become the equivalent of a domestic passport that citizens are required to produce for the most routine daily tasks.

The other serious problem with national ID cards is more practical: They probably won't work. For example, who will be issuing these cards? If everyone is required to have one, then that means there will be a lot of bureaucrats responsible for collecting and filing our personal information. Beyond logistical questions about how that process will work and how much it will cost, it raises concerns about potential fraud and abuse.

Consider how easy it is to forge a driver's license in America today. Many teenagers routinely engage in identity theft or forgery when they create fake ID cards in an attempt to prove they are older than 21 years of age. As a recent USA Today feature story illustrated, the Internet and digital technologies have made do-it-yourself ID forgery easier than ever before. "Gone are the crude, cut-and-paste fake IDs common a few years ago that were so obviously bogus. They have been replaced with replicas whose detail and accuracy often astonish authorities," the paper reported. The story noted that, "The new fake IDs may not exactly match state-issued ones, but often they're good enough to fool bartenders, nightclub doormen and, sometimes, police officers." In light of the fact that teenagers are able to so easily forge new identities merely in an attempt to get into a nightclub, imagine what individuals with truly malevolent intentions would be able to do with national ID cards.

Moreover, bureaucrats could also be bribed or forcibly coerced into divulging information or producing fake ID cards. More realistically, hackers could invade centralized databases and distort or steal personal information. In any event, human error is a real possibility. As Jonathan S. Shapiro, an assistant professor in the Johns Hopkins University Department of Computer Science, has pointed out, airport security guards and other officials, "think they are relying on the cards when in fact they are relying on the integrity of the human process by which the cards are issued." In other words, an over-reliance on technology might end up giving us a false sense of security....

[LiberalNation]

Yes, but how many times do you go to a Nuc plant? Or a Federal Building? Or fly?

Will the Feds hold Federal court outside for those who don't have their papers?
Will they shut down the U.S. Air transportation system?
Flying and court, can be quite a bit. Even if it's not, when the one time you do need it your gona be SOL if the states and feds don't work this out. The feds will push this through like so many things before. Think it's crap but then one card would be simpler instead so many state issued one for the real id thing.

[Mr. P]

Flying and court, can be quite a bit. Even if it's not, when the one time you do need it your gona be SOL if the states and feds don't work this out. The feds will push this through like so many things before. Think it's crap but then one card would be simpler instead so many state issued one for the real id thing.

I predict it will never happen. If it does, I won't have one.

[5stringJeff]

I've heard that you can take a hammer to your passport and disable the chip inside. I'm not suggesting this, of course, but I've heard it could be done.

[jimnyc]

No. By not having motor vehicles at the time the Constitution was adopted, there is no provision for drivers licenses at the federal level. That means it is covered by the 10th Amendment and the power to issue them is given to the states.

The issuing is still going to be done by the states! Congress voted, and they are simply going to use new guidelines and procedures in handing them out. So long as you are legal and not a terrorist, you'll have pretty much the same thing you already have!


Here's the big deal...right from the mouth of DHS...

This is TOTAL BULLSHIT!

The EDL (Enhanced Drivers License) won't be the Real ID's, but replacements for passports for crossing the border.

[LiberalNation]

I've heard that you can take a hammer to your passport and disable the chip inside. I'm not suggesting this, of course, but I've heard it could be done.

Bad idea, I done paid for it, no reason to break it and then get in trouble.

[Mr. P]

The issuing is still going to be done by the states! Congress voted, and they are simply going to use new guidelines and procedures in handing them out. So long as you are legal and not a terrorist, you'll have pretty much the same thing you already have!



The EDL (Enhanced Drivers License) won't be the Real ID's, but replacements for passports for crossing the border.

Replacements? No, I don't think we are replacing the passport.

[jimnyc]

Replacements? No, I don't think we are replacing the passport.

I'm simply telling you what an EDL is, and showing the difference between that and what we were discussing - Real ID's. Just wanted to show that they were not one and the same.

[Mr. P]

I'm simply telling you what an EDL is, and showing the difference between that and what we were discussing - Real ID's. Just wanted to show that they were not one and the same.

True they're not...not now anyway...but...DHS says...they will be...


DHS has worked to align REAL ID and EDL requirements. Now that the REAL ID final rulemaking has been published, DHS will ensure that State-issued EDLs meet REAL ID compliance benchmarks over time. However, there are some key distinctions between the two programs that should be noted. While the REAL ID requires proof of lawful status in the United States, the State-issued EDL will require that the card holder be a U.S. citizen.

Weird ain't it...one requires proof of lawful status, the other requires that the card holder be a U.S. citizen.

Hummmm which to choose. Tell me how this resolves any issue we face?
They want to bring the EDL (which requires the holder be a U.S. citizen) in line with the REAL ID which only requires 'proof of lawful status'. What's differant than now? Nuttin Honey. IT'S BS.

[jimnyc]

Hummmm which to choose. Tell me how this resolves any issue we face?
They want to bring the EDL (which requires the holder be a U.S. citizen) in line with the REAL ID which only requires 'proof of lawful status'. What's differant than now? Nuttin Honey. IT'S BS.

I've already posted how this resolves the current issue no less than 4x. There are easily thousands of illegals with licenses currently and not to mention fake ID's out the ying yang. Under the new guidelines, it will weed out the illegals and frauds seeking to get drivers licenses.

And of course the EDL and the Real ID should be basically the same as far as requirements are concerned. One is for a "drivers license" and the other is a "passport". Both should require proof of citizenship to attain them.

[LiberalNation]

You can be legally in this country and not a citizen but still need to drive a car.

[82Marine89]

The issuing is still going to be done by the states! Congress voted, and they are simply going to use new guidelines and procedures in handing them out. So long as you are legal and not a terrorist, you'll have pretty much the same thing you already have!


I don't have a problem with the idea and I believe we both agree on the purpose and the expected results from this program. What I have issues with is the federal government usurping their powers. The feds should not be dictating to the states how to issue their driver's licenses. That is my only issue with this.

[Mr. P]

I've already posted how this resolves the current issue no less than 4x. There are easily thousands of illegals with licenses currently and not to mention fake ID's out the ying yang. Under the new guidelines, it will weed out the illegals and frauds seeking to get drivers licenses.

And of course the EDL and the Real ID should be basically the same as far as requirements are concerned. One is for a "drivers license" and the other is a "passport". Both should require proof of citizenship to attain them.
But they don't. See how lame this is?

[jimnyc]

But they don't. See how lame this is?

So illegal aliens will have social security cards and US birth certificates on record when they attempt to get the new ID? And if they attempt to get a license with any type of fraudulent information there is a 10 fold better chance of them getting nabbed.

[Mr. P]

So illegal aliens will have social security cards and US birth certificates on record when they attempt to get the new ID? And if they attempt to get a license with any type of fraudulent information there is a 10 fold better chance of them getting nabbed.

You place way too much confidence in the average Government employee.
Most can't find their way outta a paper bag. This is a "we're doing something" to make you feel good policy. You have had experience with the law, right? Tell me there ain't a way around this for the criminals..Only the law abiding US citizen will lose on this and the government will gain more control.

[5stringJeff]

The issuing is still going to be done by the states! Congress voted, and they are simply going to use new guidelines and procedures in handing them out. So long as you are legal and not a terrorist, you'll have pretty much the same thing you already have!

The issue is that the federal government has no authorization to tell the states who they ought to issue licenses to, let alone what requirements they must meet.