Real ID licenses

[jimnyc]

Can't find this posted anywhere yet and I'm surprised. The homeland security department released the details of the new ID and license restrictions going into the next 5-8 years. I hope this pisses a bunch off and the dragnet scoops up some of the illegals and puts them where they deserve. Of course some states are fighting it but my bet is that eventually it takes place everywhere. And those that don't get the new ID's will need a passport or a new federal passport card to avoid further scrutiny.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5459380&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

[Joan]

If I recall, it's already a law in Jersey. You need your birth certificate, a utility bill with your name on it, your Social security card, your old license, - and now I'm damed cause I can't remember the others (it's a 6 point system)

[Immanuel]

The next thing they will want is us to tattoo GWB on our foreheads. This is the kind of crap that turned me sour to the current administration. They are behaving like fascists. Oh, but remember, this is all for your own good! It's is for my own protection.

God Help Us.

Immie

[Yurt]

The next thing they will want is us to tattoo GWB on our foreheads. This is the kind of crap that turned me sour to the current administration. They are behaving like fascists. Oh, but remember, this is all for your own good! It's is for my own protection.

God Help Us.

Immie

Huh? Look at the state that wants to maki you do this.... :poke:

[Immanuel]

Huh? Look at the state that wants to maki you do this.... :poke:

Doesn't make sense. What do you mean here?

For the record, I didn't say a state wants you to do this yet... I said the next thing they (meaning our Federal Government) will want is to make us get tattoos of GWB on our foreheads. ;)

Immie

[5stringJeff]

By what authority is the federal government intruding on state's rights to issue licenses to its citizens?

[Yurt]

By what authority is the federal government intruding on state's rights to issue licenses to its citizens?

good question. i think they are using the carrot/stick approach. do this, you get this much $$. which has been upheld as constitutional, because it is not "forcing" the states, as the states choose the federal funding.

oh my, where does the federal funding come from? oh my, can of worms has opened....

[82Marine89]

By what authority is the federal government intruding on state's rights to issue licenses to its citizens?

Self imposed.

[JackDaniels]

Self imposed.

Translation: Unconstitutional

[nevadamedic]

Can't find this posted anywhere yet and I'm surprised. The homeland security department released the details of the new ID and license restrictions going into the next 5-8 years. I hope this pisses a bunch off and the dragnet scoops up some of the illegals and puts them where they deserve. Of course some states are fighting it but my bet is that eventually it takes place everywhere. And those that don't get the new ID's will need a passport or a new federal passport card to avoid further scrutiny.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5459380&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Sounds good to me. :salute:

[DrJohn]

Translation: Unconstitutional


The federal government hasn't bothered with the constitution in over six years.

[red states rule]

The federal government hasn't bothered with the constitution in over six years.

So are you one of the open borders crowd? I welcome any enforcement of our laws, and I do not care how the US government stops this invasion

[DrJohn]

So are you one of the open borders crowd JD? I welcome any enforcement of our laws, and I do not care how the US government stops this invasion

I'm not sure that I even know what the "open borders crowd" is.

I too want our laws enforced.

[red states rule]

I'm not sure that I even know what the "open borders crowd" is.

I too want our laws enforced.

The open borders crowd think the illegals should be allowed to stay, given US citrizenship, and have the US stop trying to protect who comes in and when

The liberal media continues to run sob stories about the poor illegals who are taken off and deported - while the Dems and some RINOS continue to push for amnesity

[DrJohn]

The open borders crowd think the illegals should be allowed to stay, given US citrizenship, and have the US stop trying to protect who comes in and when

The liberal media continues to run sob stories about the poor illegals who are taken off and deported - while the Dems and some RINOS continue to push for amnesity


Then I'm not one of them.

[red states rule]

Then I'm not one of them.

Well, we agree on something

Dems see the illegals as a new voting block, When they are given drivers licenses, they are also given a voter registration form (the motor voter law)

and guess what, all the illegals has to do is to check the box they are here legally - and boom - they can now vote in our elections

[red states rule]

an examle of the liberal medias view of border enforcement


Veteran Journalist Likens U.S. Border Fence to Berlin Wall
By Rich Noyes | January 11, 2008 - 13:32 ET
Appearing on C-SPAN’s Washington Journal this morning, longtime CNN correspondent Charles Bierbauer, who’s now the senior contributing editor to SCHotline.com, a South Carolina political news site, equated a proposed fence to deter illegal immigration from Mexico with the Berlin Wall that prevented Germans from fleeing East Germany’s communist dictatorship during the Cold War.

Oddly, Bierbauer claimed that the Berlin Wall “didn’t work,” even though tens of thousands raced past the checkpoints to West Berlin the moment the East German dictatorship opened the gates. Referring to proposals to build a U.S.-Mexico fence, Bierbauer argued: “I’ve seen walls around other countries, most notably East Germany and East Berlin, and they didn’t work. In fact, they became symbols of oppression rather than anything positive.”

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/01/11/veteran-journalist-likens-u-s-border-fence-berlin-wall

[jimnyc]

The next thing they will want is us to tattoo GWB on our foreheads. This is the kind of crap that turned me sour to the current administration. They are behaving like fascists. Oh, but remember, this is all for your own good! It's is for my own protection.

God Help Us.

Immie

Curious, why do you lay the blame at GWB's doorstep and think it's an initiative to give him any kind of power?

The people have spoken in droves and this is an outstanding way to weed out illegals as well as potential terrorists. Unless you are one of those, I don't see where the big deal is. They are simply going to utilize information THEY ALREADY HAVE in creating the new ID's and allow further cross referencing when citizens get their new identification. If the states don't adopt the new rule, the only places that will be denied will be federal related, such as federal buildings and traveling on airplanes, which is already controlled federally. Everyone talks about invasion of privacy, but the information within these ID's is already held by our government. I'm truly baffled as to why so many would be against this as it's simply for our security and for weeding out the illegals and frauds.

[DrJohn]

Illegal immigrants are a very important issue here but the state of SC is against the ID proposal, in its current form, because it is going to cost the state too much money.
Sorry, I don't have a link I just remember hearing this on our local news.

[red states rule]

Curious, why do you lay the blame at GWB's doorstep and think it's an initiative to give him any kind of power?

The people have spoken in droves and this is an outstanding way to weed out illegals as well as potential terrorists. Unless you are one of those, I don't see where the big deal is. They are simply going to utilize information THEY ALREADY HAVE in creating the new ID's and allow further cross referencing when citizens get their new identification. If the states don't adopt the new rule, the only places that will be denied will be federal related, such as federal buildings and traveling on airplanes, which is already controlled federally. Everyone talks about invasion of privacy, but the information within these ID's is already held by our government. I'm truly baffled as to why so many would be against this as it's simply for our security and for weeding out the illegals and frauds.

Bush Derangement Syndrome is widespread and has infected many people. It seems whatever Pres Bush is for - people like Immanuel automatically come out against it

Even if it is a good idea, and will help solve the issue

[5stringJeff]

Self imposed.


Translation: Unconstitutional

BINGO! Without specific authorization, DHS has no legal authority to make these regulations.


So are you one of the open borders crowd JD? I welcome any enforcement of our laws, and I do not care how the US government stops this invasion

I care very much how we stop illegal immigration. We can do it the right way, with proper legal authorization, or we can allow the federal government to take yet more power away from the states. I vote for the former.

[red states rule]

The #1 priority of the US government is to protect our borders - if the states will not enforce our laws then the Federal government has to

I am fed up with the open borders crowd allowing the illegal invasion to go unchecked, and then demand more of my money to pay the invaders living expenses

[Gunny]

Can't find this posted anywhere yet and I'm surprised. The homeland security department released the details of the new ID and license restrictions going into the next 5-8 years. I hope this pisses a bunch off and the dragnet scoops up some of the illegals and puts them where they deserve. Of course some states are fighting it but my bet is that eventually it takes place everywhere. And those that don't get the new ID's will need a passport or a new federal passport card to avoid further scrutiny.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5459380&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

While I don't much care who it pisses off, I am opposed to a "Big Brother" license. Hell, if they want to know who I am they can ask the IRS. THEY damned-sure know who I am and keep their hand in my pocket at all times.

[82Marine89]

The #1 priority of the US government is to protect our borders - if the states will not enforce our laws then the Federal government has to

I am fed up with the open borders crowd allowing the illegal invasion to go unchecked, and then demand more of my money to pay the invaders living expenses

RSR, you have that backwards. The powers of the federal government are strictly enumerated in our Constitution. It is not the responsibility of the states to enforce federal law. Somewhere along the way, the line of Federalism has been blurred and the feds have forced their will upon the states. By allowing it to happen, the federal government has an 'assumed' power that isn't rightfully theirs.

[Mr. P]

Jim...can you attach a poll to this thread? I think it would be interesting to see how the board stands overall on this 'National' ID issue.

Personally I think it's a waste of time and money and NOT within the Feds. power to enact. It will never work either. Why only Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964? That makes as much sense as patting down grandma at the airport while ignoring Mohamed. Why not target illegals instead and enforcing the laws that already exist? As you said...
the information within these ID's is already held by our government, so what's the point, what's the real purpose? I gotta wonder.

Do we really want to get to a point that we must be licensed by the government to exercise our freedoms as U.S. citizens? I think not. But that's all I see this 'National' ID doing.

[5stringJeff]

Jim...can you attach a poll to this thread? I think it would be interesting to see how the board stands overall on this 'National' ID issue.

New poll here:
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=10760

[manu1959]

as joan pointed out most states already comply with this higher standard.....

it is only a handfull that are objecting.....and because it will cost them money.....

as for why the feds can monkey with state things....feds pay for the highways.....and porkbarell most of the roads....i guess if you take their money you gotta live with their rules....

[Immanuel]

Curious, why do you lay the blame at GWB's doorstep and think it's an initiative to give him any kind of power?

The people have spoken in droves and this is an outstanding way to weed out illegals as well as potential terrorists. Unless you are one of those, I don't see where the big deal is. They are simply going to utilize information THEY ALREADY HAVE in creating the new ID's and allow further cross referencing when citizens get their new identification. If the states don't adopt the new rule, the only places that will be denied will be federal related, such as federal buildings and traveling on airplanes, which is already controlled federally. Everyone talks about invasion of privacy, but the information within these ID's is already held by our government. I'm truly baffled as to why so many would be against this as it's simply for our security and for weeding out the illegals and frauds.

Because I am opposed to any attempt by the government to control its citizens... that being us. When they start monitoring how many times we take a crap each day and where we do it, I'm going to be very concerned. This is not about tracking terrorists or illegal aliens. This is about tracking you and me.

So, if my state does not bow down to Bush on this... no one living in my state will be entitled to fly? What kind of Bushshit is that?

I am so damned sick of hearing, "we're doing this for your own good." Hell, if I am not mistaken translated of course those were the same words Hitler used all the time. That is bullshit.


Bush Derangement Syndrome is widespread and has infected many people. It seems whatever Pres Bush is for - people like Immanuel automatically come out against it

Even if it is a good idea, and will help solve the issue

A good idea? I suppose you will still be saying such bull shit when your next door neighbor suddenly disappears because he stood up for the neighbor on the other side of him who just so happens to look Arabic. What part of what Benjamin Franklin said about security and freedom didn't you guys understand?

And just what issue do you think this will solve? The issue of controlling our own citizens is the only issue this will solve.

In reference to your BS statement about me coming out against anything Bush is for, I can assure you that is nothing short of bullshit that you can't back up. We all know that if President Bill Clinton had tried this you would have had a shit fit. I can assure you that I would be opposed to it regardless of whose idea it is.

I will admit that I have lost faith in the President. I used to think he was the right man for the job. Now, he has turned into the exact thing that I expected from Al Gore and John Kerry. He is stripping away our freedoms slowly but surely.

Immie

[red states rule]

Because I am opposed to any attempt by the government to control its citizens... that being us. When they start monitoring how many times we take a crap each day and where we do it, I'm going to be very concerned. This is not about tracking terrorists or illegal aliens. This is about tracking you and me.

So, if my state does not bow down to Bush on this... no one living in my state will be entitled to fly? What kind of Bushshit is that?

I am so damned sick of hearing, "we're doing this for your own good." Hell, if I am not mistaken translated of course those were the same words Hitler used all the time. That is bullshit.



A good idea? I suppose you will still be saying such bull shit when your next door neighbor suddenly disappears because he stood up for the neighbor on the other side of him who just so happens to look Arabic. What part of what Benjamin Franklin said about security and freedom didn't you guys understand?

And just what issue do you think this will solve? The issue of controlling our own citizens is the only issue this will solve.

In reference to your BS statement about me coming out against anything Bush is for, I can assure you that is nothing short of bullshit that you can't back up. We all know that if President Bill Clinton had tried this you would have had a shit fit. I can assure you that I would be opposed to it regardless of whose idea it is.

I will admit that I have lost faith in the President. I used to think he was the right man for the job. Now, he has turned into the exact thing that I expected from Al Gore and John Kerry. He is stripping away our freedoms slowly but surely.

Immie

You do have alot of paranoid bull shit pouring out of you. I have no problem with the US government protecting our borders and making sure those here illegally are tossed out of the country

Your sob stories about Arabic looking men is laughable. Again, I have no prblem with terrorist profiling since most terrorists ahvs been Arabic men

Your feedoms seem to be fine - your daily rants against America and pres Bush have not been stopped

[JohnDoe]

as joan pointed out most states already comply with this higher standard.....

it is only a handfull that are objecting.....and because it will cost them money.....

as for why the feds can monkey with state things....feds pay for the highways.....and porkbarell most of the roads....i guess if you take their money you gotta live with their rules....
And I think that is bullshit, on the federal Money crap that they use to get the states to do things....that federal money is money that comes FROM THE STATES and its citizens imho.....it is even calculated by state....how much each state contributes to the federal income taxes collected verses how much each state gets back, is a chart i looked at recently.

not barking at you manu, just pissed at the arrogance of the fed.

And the fed money collected for roads comes from the federal gas tax and from each and every STATE citizen and collected and calculated on a State basis as well...how much each state gives to the Fed's in the fed gas tax collected for them....verses how much they ''get back'' in road projects analysis is done too.

I'm tired of the federal government using that excuse...it is like they think there is two sets of citizens, one that lives in the individual State who pays taxes and one who lives in another place called the united States of america who also pays taxes, when we are one and the same...... the collection plate fillers are the same people.

jd

[red states rule]

And I think that is bullshit, on the federal Money crap that they use to get the states to do things....that federal money is money that comes FROM THE STATES and its citizens imho.....it is even calculated by state....how much each state contributes to the federal income taxes collected verses how much each state gets back, is a chart i looked at recently.

not barking at you manu, just pissed at the arrogance of the fed.

And the fed money collected for roads comes from the federal gas tax and from each and every STATE citizen and collected and calculated on a State basis as well...how much each state gives to the Fed's in the fed gas tax collected for them....verses how much they ''get back'' in road projects analysis is done too.

I'm tired of the federal government using that excuse...it is like they think there is two sets of citizens, one that lives in the individual State who pays taxes and one who lives in another place called the united States of america who also pays taxes, when we are one and the same and the collection plate fillers are the same people.

jd

JD, you are forgetting about the state and local taxes. I find it funny a big government liberal is now whining about Federal taxes, and how they are used

[5stringJeff]

You do have alot of paranoid bull shit pouring out of you. I have no problem with the US government protecting our borders and making sure those here illegally are tossed out of the country

I have no problems with it either - if its done within the bounds of the powers given to it by the Constitution.

[red states rule]

I have no problems with it either - if its done within the bounds of the powers given to it by the Constitution.

and if some states decide they will not enforce Federal laws, what should the Feds do?

[5stringJeff]

and if some states decide they will not enforce Federal laws, what should the Feds do?

Your question is a non-sequitor. The federal government is in charge of enforcing federal law, not states.

[red states rule]

Your question is a non-sequitor. The federal government is in charge of enforcing federal law, not states.

But there are several states who refuse to enforce Federal immigration laws - what should be done about it?

I say cut off all Federal funds to those cities and states until they do

[jimnyc]

Personally I think it's a waste of time and money and NOT within the Feds. power to enact. It will never work either. Why only Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964? That makes as much sense as patting down grandma at the airport while ignoring Mohamed. Why not target illegals instead and enforcing the laws that already exist? As you said..., so what's the point, what's the real purpose? I gotta wonder. Do we really want to get to a point that we must be licensed by the government to exercise our freedoms as U.S. citizens? I think not. But that's all I see this 'National' ID doing.

I think you guys need to understand what this is a little more. It IS still controlled by the states. It's just a NEW drivers license, only this time they are using different guidelines on how you apply and receive the license. And those born before 1964 will have to get them too, just not in the initial stage. Within 8 years it will be for everyone. It's going to be done at 3 stages from what I read.


Because I am opposed to any attempt by the government to control its citizens... that being us. When they start monitoring how many times we take a crap each day and where we do it, I'm going to be very concerned. This is not about tracking terrorists or illegal aliens. This is about tracking you and me.

So, if my state does not bow down to Bush on this... no one living in my state will be entitled to fly? What kind of Bushshit is that?

How is this going to be the government controlling the citizens? You simply go through a harder process to get a "new" drivers license. This way proves who you are to weed out illegals and frauds. They won't be able to track you any more or less than they already can with your current drivers license, which CAN be tracked nationally already.

You already have to prove who you are in order to fly, so why would this be any different?

[LiberalNation]

You simply go through a harder process to get a "new" drivers license.
I'm against it on that alone. It's already a bunch of red tape, more just insures more headaches for regular people just trying to get their license.

[red states rule]

I'm against it on that alone. It's already a bunch of red tape, more just insures more headaches for regular people just trying to get their license.

Or do you mean it would make it harder for illegals to get a drivers license and being able to vote in US elections?

[Kathianne]

I think you guys need to understand what this is a little more. It IS still controlled by the states. It's just a NEW drivers license, only this time they are using different guidelines on how you apply and receive the license. And those born before 1964 will have to get them too, just not in the initial stage. Within 8 years it will be for everyone. It's going to be done at 3 stages from what I read.



How is this going to be the government controlling the citizens? You simply go through a harder process to get a "new" drivers license. This way proves who you are to weed out illegals and frauds. They won't be able to track you any more or less than they already can with your current drivers license, which CAN be tracked nationally already.

You already have to prove who you are in order to fly, so why would this be any different?
Jim from what I can tell, it's a backdoor way to national ID card. Once you have it, they can demand to see it. First airport, later in the street. All information ever collected about you from your grocery shopping, library borrowing, credit card uses, ATM, etc., all could be included here.

[jimnyc]

Jim from what I can tell, it's a backdoor way to national ID card. Once you have it, they can demand to see it. First airport, later in the street. All information ever collected about you from your grocery shopping, library borrowing, credit card uses, ATM, etc., all could be included here.

Unless someone can prove different to me, what will be different than the current strips available on the back of your current license, and how that information is already shared nationally and tracked? And I think at this point you're getting a little far ahead of things assuming it'll ever be enacted for use other than driving, flying or going to federal buildings.

[Kathianne]

Unless someone can prove different to me, what will be different than the current strips available on the back of your current license, and how that information is already shared nationally and tracked? And I think at this point you're getting a little far ahead of things assuming it'll ever be enacted for use other than driving, flying or going to federal buildings.

Too a certain degree, I must concur. The potential to gain all that information is there, in the Patriot Act. I trusted at least this administration not to abuse it, and there is the sunset proviso. Seems I was wrong to defend them and hope the Act goes down when up again.

[jimnyc]

BTW - here are the new guidelines that come with the new ID. I still don't see anything overly obtrusive about them, and the potential to weed out illegals, frauds and terrorists far outweigh everything anyway:


By 2014, anyone seeking to board an airplane or enter a federal building would have to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license, with the notable exception of those more than 50 years old, Homeland Security officials said.


The over-50 exemption was created to give states more time to get everyone new licenses, and officials say the risk of someone in that age group being a terrorist, illegal immigrant or con artist is much less. By 2017, even those over 50 must have a REAL ID-compliant card to board a plane.


Among other details of the REAL ID plan:


—The traditional driver's license photograph would be taken at the beginning of the application instead of the end so that if someone is rejected for failure to prove identity and citizenship, the applicant's photo would be kept on file and checked if that person tried to con the system again.


—The cards will have three layers of security measures but will not contain microchips as some had expected. States will be able to choose from a menu which security measures they will put in their cards.


Over the next year, the government expects all states to begin checking both the Social Security numbers and immigration status of license applicants.


Most states already check Social Security numbers and about half check immigration status."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,322187,00.html

[Immanuel]

You do have alot of paranoid bull shit pouring out of you. I have no problem with the US government protecting our borders and making sure those here illegally are tossed out of the country

Your sob stories about Arabic looking men is laughable. Again, I have no prblem with terrorist profiling since most terrorists ahvs been Arabic men

Your feedoms seem to be fine - your daily rants against America and pres Bush have not been stopped

Obviously, you have no idea what "innocent until proven guilty" means. You have no problem arresting anyone you deem to be a potential terrorist regardless of who or what they are. You are fine with profiling, I am sure, until the point where it is you who are being profiled.

It is people like you that are discarding our Constitutional protections. You don't seem to have a clue as to what the word protection means. My freedoms are being whittled away by people like you. How can you say, my freedoms seem fine when our own government is threatening our own citizens with unwarrated confinement for nothing more than the way they look?

And for the record, I have no rants against America. You won't find a one. My problems exist only with the corrupt men and women who are controlling our government today regardless of their party.

Immie

[Immanuel]

How is this going to be the government controlling the citizens? You simply go through a harder process to get a "new" drivers license. This way proves who you are to weed out illegals and frauds. They won't be able to track you any more or less than they already can with your current drivers license, which CAN be tracked nationally already.

You already have to prove who you are in order to fly, so why would this be any different?

Kathianne already answered this question sufficiently in my opinion. I just wanted to acknowledge that I saw it.

I voted for President Bush not once but twice. I would vote for him again if the only choice I had was him or John Kerry, but would probably chose a third party candidate given the opportunity.

My problem lies completely with the callous way that this administration has dealt with our Constitutional protections. I would like to think that I can trust this administration and for the longest time, I would have said, "I know this President is no threat but I am concerned with future presidents", but now I am not even sure of that.

When I read Michael Chertoff's comments about this issue they just plain grated on me. Screw this idea about, "we know what's good for you." I don't want our government having the ability to arrest and confine indefinitely anyone they deem to be "enemy combatants" without proving those accusations. I don't want my government being able to monitor my phone conversations and then arrest me if I say something they don't like, later claiming that they wiretapped my phone because they "suspected" I had terrorist connections. I don't want my neighbors spying on me and then telling the cops that I have contact with a drug dealer (which I don't) and having the cops bust down my door to arrest me as a "terrorist" without any proof except that my neighbor claims to have seen something.

Is any of that stuff happening today? Not to my knowledge but the point of protection is to prevent it from happening in the future. When the government has successfully eliminated those protections what is to stop them from busting down your door and arresting you for dealing drugs... even though you do not use?

RSR is a good man but the two of us disagree on this issue. I don't trust our government that far. I don't think any of us should trust them that far. I think we need to defend those Constitutional Protections for the exact same reason that they were put in the Constitution in the first place... because there is the potential for governmental abuse of its citizens and those citizens need to be protected from potential governmental abuses whether they are happening today or not.

His idea of terrorist profiling is scary to me. Because today they profile Arabic men. Five years ago it was black men because everyone knows only black men deal drugs. Tomorrow it could be me.

Immie