Lessons From the Surge

[red states rule]

The lessons learned from the surge is no job is to great for the US military, and most Democrats were wrong about how the surge would succeed



Lessons From the Surge
By Michael Barone

There are lessons to be learned from the dazzling success of the surge strategy in Iraq.

Lesson one is that just about no mission is impossible for the United States military. A year ago it was widely thought, not just by the new Democratic leaders in Congress but also in many parts of the Pentagon, that containing the violence in Iraq was impossible. Now we have seen it done.

We have seen this before in American history. George Washington's forces seemed on the brink of defeat many times in the agonizing years before Yorktown. Abraham Lincoln's generals seemed so unsuccessful in the Civil War that in August 1864 it was widely believed he would be defeated for re-election. But finally Lincoln found the right generals. Sherman took Atlanta and marched to the sea; Grant pressed forward in Virginia.

Franklin Roosevelt picked the right generals and admirals from the start in World War II, but the first years of the war were filled with errors and mistakes. Even Vietnam is not necessarily a counterexample. As Lewis Sorley argues persuasively in "A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam," Gen. Creighton Abrams came up with a winning strategy by 1972. South Vietnam fell three years later when the North Vietnamese army attacked en masse, and Congress refused to allow the aid the U.S. had promised.

George W. Bush, like Lincoln, took his time finding the right generals. But it's clear now that the forward-moving surge strategy devised by Gens. David Petraeus and Raymond Odierno has succeeded where the stand-aside strategy employed by their predecessors failed. American troops are surely the most capable military force in history. They just need to be given the right orders.

Lesson two is that societies can more easily be transformed from the bottom up than from the top down. Bush's critics are still concentrating on the failure of the central Iraqi government to reach agreement on important issues -- even though the oil revenues are already being distributed to the provinces. We persuaded the Iraqis to elect their parliament from national party lists (reportedly so that it would include more women) rather than to elect them from single-member districts that would have elected community leaders more in touch with local opinion.

for the complete article

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/12/lessons_from_the_surge.html

[gabosaurus]

I am surprised at how readily the Republican accepted the "surge" bullshit. It was a massive troop buildup that has done very little.
Of course, if you read only the extreme right wing sites, you would think that the Mission has become Re-Accomplished.

[Gaffer]

I am surprised at how readily the Republican accepted the "surge" bullshit. It was a massive troop buildup that has done very little.
Of course, if you read only the extreme right wing sites, you would think that the Mission has become Re-Accomplished.

The surge should have taught you that if something doesn't work you try something different. But you keep using the same old failed line the libs have been using for years. You need to read something besides the left wing wacko sites and get some real facts for a change.

[retiredman]

I never once doubted the US Military's ability to accomplish the military mission of the surge: to provide a calm period of time relatively devoid of violence so that the Iraqi politicians could come to the compromise decisions necessary to form a lasting government.

It is, therefore, no surprise to me that we have done our part and done it well...

It is, unfortunately, also no surprise to me that the Iraqi politicians have failed to do their part.

[red states rule]

I never once doubted the US Military's ability to accomplish the military mission of the surge: to provide a calm period of time relatively devoid of violence so that the Iraqi politicians could come to the compromise decisions necessary to form a lasting government.

It is, therefore, no surprise to me that we have done our part and done it well...

It is, unfortunately, also no surprise to me that the Iraqi politicians have failed to do their part.

It must have been a shock to your party leaders - they are said the war was lost and the surge was a waste of time

[Lazarus]

There was never any doubt that our military could tamp down the violence, temporarily.

What was in doubt, and what has come to pass, is that the 2nd wave of this plan was ill-conceived.

Bush sold this as a package deal. The two cannot be split up at this late stage.

The diplomatic aspect was designed to fail.
A sovereign nation must choose its' own path, and no amount of coaxing from outside agitators will produce any sustainable results.

We could force our vision of a " democracy " upon the populace, but it would only produce an unstable equilibrium.

Our Armed Forces = http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0159.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)
I'd give them a " B "

Our State Dept. = http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0034.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)
a " D "

[red states rule]

There was never any doubt that our military could tamp down the violence, temporarily.

What was in doubt, and what has come to pass, is that the 2nd wave of this plan was ill-conceived.

Bush sold this as a package deal. The two cannot be split up at this late stage.

The diplomatic aspect was designed to fail.
A sovereign nation must choose its' own path, and no amount of coaxing from outside agitators will produce any sustainable results.

We could force our vision of a " democracy " upon the populace, but it would only produce an unstable equilibrium.

Our Armed Forces = http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0159.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)
I'd give them a " B "

Our State Dept. = http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0034.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)
a " D "

There was alot of doubt on the left

Now they are having to eat their words of defeat

[retiredman]

It must have been a shock to your party leaders - they are said the war was lost and the surge was a waste of time

what are your thoughts about the lack of Iraqi political progress that the surge was designed to promote? and what will happen when the surge troops are forced to come home in april due to troop rotation?

[red states rule]

what are your thoughts about the lack of Iraqi political progress that the surge was designed to promote? and what will happen when the surge troops are forced to come home in april due to troop rotation?

The government is working on their issues - they have alot of work to do

Of course, libs were saying how the surge would never work - and now they are searching for anything to distract from their previous doom and gloom rants

[retiredman]

The government is working on their issues - they have alot of work to do

Of course, libs were saying how the surge would never work - and now they are searching for anything to distract from their previous doom and gloom rants

on a military level, the surge worked. no doubt. our troops and our military commanders should be congratulated for a job well done!

an analogy:

a patient has a heart attack and has blocked coronary arteries. doctors operate. they go into his heart and open up all of his coronary arteries with stents and restore blood flow to all muscle areas of the heart. the operation was a complete success. but the patient died anyway.

our surge can "succeed", but if the Iraqi government does not make progress, the patient died....get the analogy? The surge will be over in April. troop levels will return to the level they were when violence was out of control. If there is no political progress that will stop the violence from returning, what will the surge really have accomplished, in the long run?

[trobinett]

on a military level, the surge worked. no doubt. our troops and our military commanders should be congratulated for a job well done!

an analogy:

a patient has a heart attack and has blocked coronary arteries. doctors operate. they go into his heart and open up all of his coronary arteries with stents and restore blood flow to all muscle areas of the heart. the operation was a complete success. but the patient died anyway.

our surge can "succeed", but if the Iraqi government does not make progress, the patient died....get the analogy? The surge will be over in April. troop levels will return to the level they were when violence was out of control. If there is no political progress that will stop the violence from returning, what will the surge really have accomplished, in the long run?

That's a trick question right?:laugh2:



























More dead BAD GUY'S.:slap:

[red states rule]

That's a trick question right?:laugh2:



























More dead BAD GUY'S.:slap:



Of course it is. MM wnts us to ignore the good news, and still sees the glass as half empty

[April15]

In truth while the increase in military personel has aided in the building of walls around neighborhoods and creating little islands that are easier to defend, the city of Baghdad is a ruined area. People want to compare 4000 deaths over 5 years of war with those of a city in the mainland US is silly as the war has been in a city. I did not think Bush would pick a general who could do the job of securing a city but he seems to have done so, this time. But 140,000 troops to keep the order in 1 city?

[red states rule]

In truth while the increase in military personel has aided in the building of walls around neighborhoods and creating little islands that are easier to defend, the city of Baghdad is a ruined area. People want to compare 4000 deaths over 5 years of war with those of a city in the mainland US is silly as the war has been in a city. I did not think Bush would pick a general who could do the job of securing a city but he seems to have done so, this time. But 140,000 troops to keep the order in 1 city?

Remember Fallujah?

It was a hotbed and stronghold for AQ

Not anymore

http://www.newsweek.com/id/81993

[Gaffer]

The military part of the surge has and is working. The political part is still on going. It takes longer. The military success allows the politicians to do their job. And as their job is completed the economic part will kick into gear. Of course the libs don't want the political and economic parts to succeed because it will prove them wrong again and make Bush look good.

As for the analogy. The surgery would be successful if the anesthesiologist hadn't made the determination before hand that the surgery was hopeless and pulled out in the middle of the operation declaring it a failure.

Guess which part of the medical team MM represents.

[April15]

Remember Fallujah?

It was a hotbed and stronghold for AQ

Not anymore

http://www.newsweek.com/id/81993Was there AQ in any part of Iraq before the US invaded Iraq? Saddam would not tolerate it so NO!

[red states rule]

Was there AQ in any part of Iraq before the US invaded Iraq? Saddam would not tolerate it so NO!

Yes

Training camps in the North, and AQ members got medical treatment in Iraq hospitals

What does your question have to do with the success the troops are having?

[Lazarus]

There was alot of doubt on the left

Now they are having to eat their words of defeat

If you could cite specifics, one could discern under what context that doubt was voiced.

Also, I would expect citations from outside this DP bubble; lots of shit is spewn in here - from all sides.
Democratic Leadership examples ?

But, viewed as a whole, this surge/escalation/reconciliation gambit cannot be deemed as anything other than a failure. The de-escalation will begin in a few months, and no political end-game is in sight.
The goals were not met.

And the relocation of those troops from Afghanistan to Baghdad put the former into renewed jeopardy.
Which also has limited - and is limiting - our options re: Pakistan.

The domino theory.

[retiredman]

The military part of the surge has and is working. The political part is still on going. It takes longer. The military success allows the politicians to do their job. And as their job is completed the economic part will kick into gear. Of course the libs don't want the political and economic parts to succeed because it will prove them wrong again and make Bush look good.

As for the analogy. The surgery would be successful if the anesthesiologist hadn't made the determination before hand that the surgery was hopeless and pulled out in the middle of the operation declaring it a failure.

Guess which part of the medical team MM represents.


The surge is not capable of being maintained indefinitely. In April of this next year, we will be forced to reduce our troop levels back to where they were before the surge. The surge was a window in time where we would hold down the violence with the increased boots on the ground, and the Iraqi politicians were to have made hay while the sun shined...they were to have MADE the political progress that the surge was supposed to allow. We did OUR part...they have not done theirs.

This comes as no surprise to me. I have been standing on my soapbox saying that Iraqis will NOT be able to put aside a millenium of enmity and make their unnatural, artificially constructed " country" become a cohesive politically viable nation-state.... As I said on this site earlier..... expecting the sunnis and shiites and kurds who live in the Eurpopean constructed "country" called Iraq to get along and form a multicultural Jeffersonian democracy is like putting the Bloods and the Crips together in a high school gymnasium and expecting a friendly game of volleyball to break out.

[Dilloduck]

If liberals and conservatives can live in the same damn country, then so can they. :laugh2:

[retiredman]

If liberals and conservatives can live in the same damn country, then so can they. :laugh2:

the difference is: liberals and conservatives in America share a common birthright as Americans. America was forged by our collective ancestors. Iraq, on the other hand, was drawn on a map by a bunch of Europeans dividing the spoils of war in the wake of WWI. The three ethnic groups living in that artificially constructed " country" have no common heritage to bind them together... in fact, they have a millennium of hatred which moves them in the opposite direction.

[mrg666]

the difference is: liberals and conservatives in America share a common birthright as Americans. America was forged by our collective ancestors. Iraq, on the other hand, was drawn on a map by a bunch of Europeans dividing the spoils of war in the wake of WWI. The three ethnic groups living in that artificially constructed " country" have no common heritage to bind them together... in fact, they have a millennium of hatred which moves them in the opposite direction.

was america not made up of said "Europeans " not the same ones but never the less
:salute:

[retiredman]

was america not made up of said "Europeans " not the same ones but never the less
:salute:

America being "made up" of Europeans is completely different than Iraq being drawn on a map BY europeans.

it is like someone going to the zoo and saying, from a distance, the tigers and the goats and the skunks will be a "country". now go and govern yourselves.

[mrg666]

america was mapped years before the war of independance and towns named by europeans, and most are still the same the map as never changed

[trobinett]

America being "made up" of Europeans is completely different than Iraq being drawn on a map BY europeans.

it is like someone going to the zoo and saying, from a distance, the tigers and the goats and the skunks will be a "country". now go and govern yourselves.

I just expect more, silly me..........:lame2:

[retiredman]

america was mapped years before the war of independance and towns named by europeans, and most are still the same the map as never changed

mapped...named...AND POPULATED by europeans.

is the distinction lost on you?

[mrg666]

mapped...named...AND POPULATED by europeans.

is the distinction lost on you?

no it's not lost , however most american europeans now consider themselves AMERICANS

[retiredman]

no it's not lost , however most american europeans now consider themselves AMERICANS

and I am sure if Iraq had been settled by a bunch of europeans three hundred years ago, they would all consider themselves to be Iraqis now.....

but that was not the case....three groups of people already living there were crammed together into an artificial " country" by some victorious europeans who never did bother to colonize or populate the area.

[trobinett]

and I am sure if Iraq had been settled by a bunch of europeans three hundred years ago, they would all consider themselves to be Iraqis now.....

but that was not the case....three groups of people already living there were crammed together into an artificial " country" by some victorious europeans who never did bother to colonize or populate the area.

And, this is OUR fault?

[retiredman]

And, this is OUR fault?

of course not. our only "fault" is presuming that we could foist multicultural jeffersonian democracy on an artificially constructed country once we remove from power the dictator who was a member of the minority sect with a conquering occupying armed force.

[trobinett]

of course not. our only "fault" is presuming that we could foist multicultural jeffersonian democracy on an artificially constructed country once we remove from power the dictator who was a member of the minority sect with a conquering occupying armed force.

Thank you, just checking.

This of course wouldn't be the FIRST time a country was artificially constructed, would it?

[retiredman]

Thank you, just checking.

This of course wouldn't be the FIRST time a country was artificially constructed, would it?


it may be the first time that a country was constructed that contained such enmity between residents.

[trobinett]

it may be the first time that a country was constructed that contained such enmity between residents.

Good point, but how does THAT change the "lay of the land"?

This problem should of been dealt with years ago, and has been laid, as has many others problems at OUR door step.

Lest we forget, we have had little to do with the boundaries set in the last hundred years.

[retiredman]

Good point, but how does THAT change the "lay of the land"?

This problem should of been dealt with years ago, and has been laid, as has many others problems at OUR door step.

Lest we forget, we have had little to do with the boundaries set in the last hundred years.

we did chose to invade.

a major fuck up.

and for the party that committed that horrific mistake to still want to claim the right to lead this nation is really profoundly presumptuous, from my perspective.

[retiredman]

we cannot change the fact that Iraq will, whenever we leave, become a shiite quasi-theocracy aligned with Iran. That is what our fuck up has created. accept it. move on.

[trobinett]

we did chose to invade.

a major fuck up.

and for the party that committed that horrific mistake to still want to claim the right to lead this nation is really profoundly presumptuous, from my perspective.

Understood, but it did seem like the right thing to do at the time.

As to being "presumptuous", well, I'm sure we'll be debating that for quite some time.:poke:

[retiredman]

Understood, but it did seem like the right thing to do at the time.

As to being "presumptuous", well, I'm sure we'll be debating that for quite some time.:poke:

it may have seemed like the right thing to do to YOU...but I have been on record as being vehemently against the invasion of Iraq ever since dubya started priming the pump in the fall of '02.

[Dilloduck]

Understood, but it did seem like the right thing to do at the time.

As to being "presumptuous", well, I'm sure we'll be debating that for quite some time.:poke:

They didn't give the United States a chance either but after a civil war, years of ethnic hatred and bigotry we are now one big happy multi-cultured, multi-ethnic family ( and we trying to bring in MORE cultures and religions all the time ).

[retiredman]

They didn't give the United States a chance either but after a civil war, years of ethnic hatred and bigotry we are now one big happy multi-cultured, multi-ethnic family ( and we trying to bring in MORE cultures and religions all the time ).

flawed analogy.

Americans fought a revolutionary war for the right to FORM our country.... Iraqis were merely spoils of war thrust together unnaturally by victorious foreign cultures.

[Dilloduck]

flawed analogy.

Americans fought a revolutionary war for the right to FORM our country.... Iraqis were merely spoils of war thrust together unnaturally by victorious foreign cultures.

some did----some left---some fought with the brits---other coutries joined the fray--we killed a lot of natives--it was a bloody mess.

[retiredman]

some did----some left---some fought with the brits---other coutries joined the fray--we killed a lot of natives--it was a bloody mess.

it certainly was. But it was a mess of our own creation. and we solved it on our own without some invading, conquering, occupying power from half way around the globe babysitting us while we did.

[Dilloduck]

it certainly was. But it was a mess of our own creation. and we solved it on our own without some invading, conquering, occupying power from half way around the globe babysitting us while we did.

I'm sure throughout the history of the United States you can find many who wanted NO part of events that shaped America and adamantly claimed that our country was being destoyed by "others".

[retiredman]

I'm sure throughout the history of the United States you can find many who wanted NO part of events that shaped America and adamantly claimed that our country was being destoyed by "others".

it doesn't change the fact that attempting to compare the early struggles to form America with what is happening in Iraq is apples and oranges and insulting to our forefathers.

[Dilloduck]

it doesn't change the fact that attempting to compare the early struggles to form America with what is happening in Iraq is apples and oranges and insulting to our forefathers.

There are similarities and differences. Hopefully Iraq can get back to that beautiful place it once was. Heck--I even wish America could get back to the beautifulk land it once was. Tell our forefathers I'm sorry.

[retiredman]

There are similarities and differences. Hopefully Iraq can get back to that beautiful place it once was. Heck--I even wish America could get back to the beautifulk land it once was. Tell our forefathers I'm sorry.

Any minuscule similarities are outweighed by the enormous differences.

Iraq was never a beautiful place.

and if you want to apologize to our forefathers, you'll have to do that yourself.

[Dilloduck]

Any minuscule similarities are outweighed by the enormous differences.


Only to someone determined to believe that something catastophic has happened. You act as if this is the first time a war has caused the death of humans and a lot of money was spent in the process. Chin up old boy--the world can get through this one too.

[retiredman]

Only to someone determined to believe that something catastophic has happened. You act as if this is the first time a war has caused the death of humans and a lot of money was spent in the process. Chin up old boy--the world can get through this one too.

again...if you need to paint this mess in Iraq as "the American Revolution - Act Two" in order to sleep at night...do what you gotta do.

[red states rule]

again...if you need to paint this mess in Iraq as "the American Revolution - Act Two" in order to sleep at night...do what you gotta do.

again, MM will do and say anything to avoid talking about the progress being made

After all, he follows the DNC's doom and gloom talking points

[Dilloduck]

again...if you need to paint this mess in Iraq as "the American Revolution - Act Two" in order to sleep at night...do what you gotta do.

I am not trying to paint it as anything. YOU are the one claiming to know all the facts and future of Iraq. I'm going to buy you a big box of crayons (sharpener included) and I encourage you to try using them all--not just the black one.

[red states rule]

I am not trying to paint it as anything. YOU are the one claiming to know all the facts and future of Iraq. I'm going to buy you a big box of crayons (sharpener included) and I encourage you to try using them all--not just the black one.

You might want to include instructions with the CARE package

[mrg666]

and I am sure if Iraq had been settled by a bunch of europeans three hundred years ago, they would all consider themselves to be Iraqis now.....

but that was not the case....three groups of people already living there were crammed together into an artificial " country" by some victorious europeans who never did bother to colonize or populate the area.

look at your first statement

[retiredman]

look at your first statement

I wrote it...I stand by it. what IS your point?

[red states rule]

I wrote it...I stand by it. what IS your point?

You are in need of serious 24 hour adult supervision for one thing

[retiredman]

You are in need of serious 24 hour adult supervision for one thing


do you, or do you NOT advocate pissing on Article VI of the Constitution?

[red states rule]

do you, or do you NOT advocate pissing on Article VI of the Constitution?

I advocate protecting the US and its citizens from terrorist attacks, while you want to bend over for the terrorists and ensure their "rights' are protected

[retiredman]

I advocate protecting the US and its citizens from terrorist attacks, while you want to bend over for the terrorists and ensure their "rights' are protected

why can't you answer the question about Article VI?


a simple yes or no would suffice

[red states rule]

why can't you answer the question about Article VI?


a simple yes or no would suffice

Answered

You would rather hold up the piece of paper over the dead bodies and scream "But he signed a treaty with the US. How could this happen?"

[retiredman]

Answered

You would rather hold up the piece of paper over the dead bodies and scream "But he signed a treaty with the US. How could this happen?"

so...your answer is: you would piss on the constitution? yes or no?

[red states rule]

so...your answer is: you would piss on the constitution? yes or no?

You are not only stuck on repeat - you are stuck on moronic.

[retiredman]

You are not only stuck on repeat - you are stuck on moronic.


and you remain an admitted domestic enemy of the constitution

[red states rule]

and you remain an admitted domestic enemy of the constitution

If it means protecting the US from terrorist attacks - then I plead guilty

You on the other hand, would rather have the attacks then piss off the UN

[retiredman]

If it means protecting the US from terrorist attacks - then I plead guilty

You on the other hand, would rather have the attacks then piss off the UN

so...you admit that you are on record as pissing on article VI of the constitution?

that's all I wanted to hear.

domestic enemy. traitor.

[red states rule]

so...you admit that you are on record as pissing on article VI of the constitution?

that's all I wanted to hear.

domestic enemy. traitor.

You are a total nutcase tonight MM. Take your med and go see your shrink - you are long overdue for the treatment you so desperately need

[retiredman]

You are a total nutcase tonight MM. Take your med and go see your shrink - you are long overdue for the treatment you so desperately need

are ou now saying that you support Article VI? yes or no?

[red states rule]

are ou now saying that you support Article VI? yes or no?

Still stuck on stupid I see. Still asking questions that have been answered many times

[retiredman]

Still stuck on stupid I see. Still asking questions that have been answered many times


you keep changing your answer.....but in another thread, you just answered it unambiguously. You stated clearly that you WOULD ignore the constitution. I guess we're done here.

traitor.

[red states rule]

you keep changing your answer.....but in another thread, you just answered it unambiguously. You stated clearly that you WOULD ignore the constitution. I guess we're done here.

traitor.

Libs like you always call those who disagree with you a traitor - and issue death threats

Your way of debating the issues

[retiredman]

Libs like you always call those who disagree with you a traitor - and issue death threats

Your way of debating the issues

you are the one who has stated that you would ignore article VI of the constitution.

I have never advocated anything other than strict adherence to our laws.

[red states rule]

you are the one who has stated that you would ignore article VI of the constitution.

I have never advocated anything other than strict adherence to our laws.

Again, if it means saving lives or honoring a worthless piece of paoper signed by dicators - I will choose saving lives

While you woould let the attacks happen and the body count rise. It makes better press conferences for your Dems asking why the attacks were not stopped before they happened

[retiredman]

Again, if it means saving lives or honoring a worthless piece of paoper signed by dicators - I will choose saving lives

While you woould let the attacks happen and the body count rise. It makes better press conferences for your Dems asking why the attacks were not stopped before they happened


so the constitution is a worthless piece of paper? I thought you would say so

[red states rule]

so the constitution is a worthless piece of paper? I thought you would say so

The treaties by the Useless Nations and your posts are what are worthless MM

[retiredman]

The treaties by the Useless Nations and your posts are what are worthless MM

so...you are saying that article VI should be pissed on? I understand.

[red states rule]

so...you are saying that article VI should be pissed on? I understand.

Yes MM keep protecting the terrorists while US troops and civilians are killed. That is what you want so you can have more political attacks on Pres Bush - as well as push for surrender even harder

[retiredman]

Yes MM keep protecting the terrorists while US troops and civilians are killed. That is what you want so you can have more political attacks on Pres Bush - as well as push for surrender even harder

not so. I signed on to defend the constitution against its enemies....and you have clearly stated that you are one of those.

[red states rule]

not so. I signed on to defend the constitution against its enemies....and you have clearly stated that you are one of those.

Hitler had the same opinion of his political opponents as well

He had them shot as well - just as you want

[retiredman]

Hitler had the same opinion of his political opponents as well

He had them shot as well - just as you want

are you suggesting that you have not advocated pissing on article VI of the constitution?

[red states rule]

are you suggesting that you have not advocated pissing on article VI of the constitution?

You make a hell of a parrot MM - keep repeating the same thing over and over and over

[retiredman]

You make a hell of a parrot MM - keep repeating the same thing over and over and over


it is the truth. you advocate pissing on the constitution of the united states. that is really horrible.

[red states rule]

it is the truth. you advocate pissing on the constitution of the united states. that is really horrible.

what is more horrible you would rather let the terrorist attacks happen rather then using all methods possible to stop them

Being a lib, you have to keep the Useless Nations happy

[retiredman]

what is more horrible you would rather let the terrorist attacks happen rather then using all methods possible to stop them

Being a lib, you have to keep the Useless Nations happy

being a military man, I would always support and defend the constitution of the united states. that is the difference between us.

[actsnoblemartin]

if torture can help save lives, and is used sparingly. Three times to date against top level al queda, why not support it?

without survival, nothing else matters.

If your dead, with morals and values is that better then doing whatever is neccesary to win.

Im not saying the u.s. should be as evil as al queda, its not an all or none proposition to me

safe guards, i get that.. its fine.

but to say, we will never do certain things, while the enemy does whatever is neccesary to defeat us, is as useless as rules of engagement

A piece of paper, cannot predict all real world problems and cannot solve any of its solutions


being a military man, I would always support and defend the constitution of the united states. that is the difference between us.

[actsnoblemartin]

i wanna make it clear, any u.s. citizen can serve the nation and be an idiot, and any u.s. citizen can NOT serve, and be smart.

and more importantly, vice versa.

All who serve are patriots, but whether you serve or not, no one's ideas: key words ideas only... are above criticism

[red states rule]

if torture can help save lives, and is used sparingly. Three times to date against top level al queda, why not support it?

without survival, nothing else matters.

If your dead, with morals and values is that better then doing whatever is neccesary to win.

Im not saying the u.s. should be as evil as al queda, its not an all or none proposition to me

safe guards, i get that.. its fine.

but to say, we will never do certain things, while the enemy does whatever is neccesary to defeat us, is as useless as rules of engagement

A piece of paper, cannot predict all real world problems and cannot solve any of its solutions

The point is, the US does not torture. Libs keep telling that lie over and over so even they start to believe it

They are are upset over waterboarding, yet they know damn well it has only been used 3 times and has not been used in years

[retiredman]

are you suggesting that waterboarding is not prohibited under the terms of the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment - a treaty which we are signatories to?

[gabosaurus]

The point is, the US does not torture. Libs keep telling that lie over and over so even they start to believe it

They are are upset over waterboarding, yet they know damn well it has only been used 3 times and has not been used in years

Clinton did not have sex with that woman either.

[Dilloduck]

Clinton did not have sex with that woman either.

How did your New Years Eve "surge" go btw ? :laugh2:

[red states rule]

Clinton did not have sex with that woman either.

Nice job of disproving my facts. Are you going to try or admit I am right?

[MtnBiker]

Are you going to try or admit I am right?

Whether or not you are "right" they are not going to admit it, whether or not they are "right" you are not going to admit it. It seems endless meaningless jabs at one another is more of the objective.

[retiredman]

could you answer this simple question, RSR?

are you suggesting that waterboarding is not prohibited under the terms of the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment?

[Gaffer]

mfm are you suggesting that defending a piece of paper that the Constitution is written on is more important than human lives? Are you suggesting that as a military man you defended the Constitution but not the country? Are you suggesting that the UN should have more authority over our nation than the Constitution? Are you suggesting RSR should not speak his mind on a forum because he doesn't adhere to your socialist ideologies?

I'm sure McCain has a lot of empathy for people that are tortured. And I think that muddles his ability to do what's necessary when it comes to getting information from murdering thugs.

The big difference between you and me is that you served to defend the Constitution, while I served to defend my country. Without the country the Constitution is just a piece of paper.

[Kathianne]

Hezbollah is Iran backed proxy fighters. Hezbollah is the enforcement arm of Iran throughout the Middle East.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1871768&Language=en



Iraqi awakening council militiamen arrest three Iranians
Military and Security 12/31/2007 8:57:00 PM

BAGHDAD, Dec 31 (KUNA) -- Members of the paramilitary Awakening Council of Al-A'zhamiya arrested three persons of Iranian nationality and handed them to the US forces, commander of the council Colonel Riyadh Al-Samerra'e said Monday.

The suspects were carrying rigged Iraqi identity cards, Al-Samerra'e told KUNA, noting that the Multi-National Forces in Iraq, Baghdad Command, will investigate the case.

The detainees have links with Lebanese Hezbollah group and were trained militarily in Iran, he added.

Meanwhile, militants belonging to Al-Qeada Organization in Iraq killed eight persons and injured dozens of others in separate attacks across Iraq Monday.
The gunmen attacked three police stations in Al-Khales town, Diala governorate, north Baghdad.

Two persons including an awakening council militiaman and a policeman were killed and three others including a captain were injured in the attacks, a security source told KUNA.

Three other persons were killed and ten others were injured in a separate attack in Deli Abbas town, north Baaqoba governorate.

Suspected Al-Qaeda militants killed three persons in an attack against Tal Al-Zahab town, Salah-Eddin governorate, north Baghdad, the source added.
The attacks came 24 hours after Al-Qeada leader Osama Bin-Laden warned the Iraqi Sunnis against joining the pro-government awakening councils. (end) ahh.gb.
KUNA 312057 Dec 07NNNN

[Dilloduck]

Hezbollah is Iran backed proxy fighters. Hezbollah is the enforcement arm of Iran throughout the Middle East.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1871768&Language=en

Since they weren't there when the US first invaded it doesn't count--pay no attention to them. :cool:

[red states rule]

could you answer this simple question, RSR?

I want to save lives while you want to.........well I don't know what the hell you want to do, except bitch about whatever the US government does to break terrorists