RedLightCameras... Whatchya think?

[Roopull]

Call me anal... call me paranoid. But, when I'm returning home from work (usually around three to five in the morning,) I actually slow down at intersections enough to make sure no one is about to blast through a redlight & turn me into lasagna.

Many intersections near where I live, however, now have these nifty little cameras. At first, I hated the idea. It seems like it gives too much of an opportunity for them to abuse us.

What do you guys think.


Oh, and before you respond, check out this story... it seems they work. (http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070215/1a_bottomstrip15_dom.art.htm)


Research: Red-light cameras work
They're changing behavior, but some say rights violated

By Larry Copeland
USA TODAY

ATLANTA — Surveillance cameras at major intersections dramatically reduce the number of drivers who barrel through red lights, two new research reports say.

The findings come as debate about the controversial devices continues a decade after they were introduced. The battles include a proposal to ban the cameras here in Georgia, litigation in at least three states and legislative efforts to permit them in six other states.

The cameras automatically photograph vehicles that drive into intersections after the light turns red. Vehicle owners are then mailed citations instructing them to pay a fine or sign an affidavit that they weren't driving at the time.

More than 850 people die and about 170,000 are injured each year in crashes caused by drivers running red lights, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says.

Researchers studied the effectiveness of red-light cameras in Philadelphia and Virginia Beach.

The Philadelphia study, conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), an industry group, examined red-light violations using a two-step approach. First, researchers found that violations dropped by 36% after yellow lights were extended to give drivers more warning that the light was about to turn red. After red-light cameras were added, remaining violations dropped by 96%.

"There's a dramatic change in driver behavior when red-light cameras are used," says Richard Retting, senior transportation safety engineer for IIHS. "The jury is in on that question."

The Virginia Beach study, conducted by Old Dominion University, examined signal violations at four intersections before red-light cameras were installed, while they were operating and after they were removed in 2005. Violations more than tripled by August 2006.

"That's a huge jump," says lead researcher Bryan Porter, an associate professor of psychology at Old Dominion. "The rate of red-light running was actually higher" than before the cameras were installed.

The popularity of the cameras is growing rapidly despite opposition that centers on constitutional grounds. About 250 communities around the USA use the devices, according to the Insurance Institute. Just 10 years ago, only New York and San Francisco had them.

Opponents say the cameras deny drivers their right to confront their accusers in court and are a ploy by local governments to raise revenue.

"There is a lot of money to be made with them," says Howard Bass, a Minnesota attorney who successfully challenged Minneapolis' red-light camera system in a case that will be argued before the state Supreme Court next month. "Ultimately, this is an issue that may have to be decided in the court of public opinion rather than courts of law. It's a public policy issue of how much surveillance creep we will tolerate in the 21st century."

[darin]

Taxation via Citation. Red light cameras do NOTHING but increase accidents and revenue for governments. Don't get me started on traffic laws...I'll rant and rave at the stupidity of the public for putting up with how things are.

[Roomy]

OK.You are anal and you are paranoid.LOL.

[The ClayTaurus]

It's an income scheme, pure and simple.

[Birdzeye]

I don't care if it's an "income scheme." If it makes people more likely to obey traffic lights, as the thread parent's link seems to show, then the safety factor is a bonus.

[Hobbit]

Red light cameras are an ineffective means of deterrance, as the violator doesn't get punished for his actions until a week after the incident. Pulling the person over has a better effect. These cameras are just another way to pull in money, just like the majority of speed laws. I do think that Atlanta area driver run red lights far more than is healthy, but I don't think this is the answer.

[Birdzeye]

Red light cameras are an ineffective means of deterrance, as the violator doesn't get punished for his actions until a week after the incident. Pulling the person over has a better effect. These cameras are just another way to pull in money, just like the majority of speed laws. I do think that Atlanta area driver run red lights far more than is healthy, but I don't think this is the answer.
You clearly didn't read the thread parent's link. It showed that the presence of red light cameras DID enhance compliance with the red lights.

[Mr. P]

They're great! They work well! Install more!

[Sitarro]

The only people that should have a problem with this are the assholes that put all of our lives in danger by not paying attention to the laws that allow us to drive around each other in some kind of civilized matter.

As I type this they are talking about a study of red light cameras on the radio. They are reporting that the studies have shown that they are working. There is a learning curve, but it is a lot cheaper than running into another driver that is driving by the rules.

The reason we have laws is to equalize the public, otherwise the bullies would rule, motorcyclist would be targets for the fun of it and polite people with smaller cars would get stuck at intersections for days. The fact is we are suppose to have the same rights no matter how cheap or expensive your vehicle is, or how rich or poor you are.

If it was up to me a huge concrete barrier would pop up in front of the asshole running the red light, then take all the photos you want of the totaled piece of crap that was formerly a car. My message to all of you guys and girls out there that drive way above your abilities.....grow up.

[Hobbit]

You clearly didn't read the thread parent's link. It showed that the presence of red light cameras DID enhance compliance with the red lights.

I saw that, but Philidelphia is not Atlanta. In Atlanta, speeding, even with cameras, became such a source of animosity between citizens and the government, that the government just gave up. As a result, everybody around here goes 80 or more, even on the 55 bypass. It doesn't and won't help here.

Edit: If they do implement them and they do work, I'll go back on my statement, but most Atlanta area lights that I've seen have short yellow durations and kooky cycles, as if they're DARING you to run them. I think the city's just trying to pick up more revenue.

And btw, I DON'T run red lights. I have nice breaks and a light car, so I only even go through yellows about half the time.

[The ClayTaurus]

In Washington DC, they have speeding cameras that work similarly to the red light cameras. All that happens is everyone speeds until the speed trap, then slam on their brakes, coast through the trap, then punch it again.

DC also has a ton of red light cameras, and has admitted to installing them as an additional source of income.

[Sitarro]

Red light cameras are an ineffective means of deterrance, as the violator doesn't get punished for his actions until a week after the incident. Pulling the person over has a better effect. These cameras are just another way to pull in money, just like the majority of speed laws. I do think that Atlanta area driver run red lights far more than is healthy, but I don't think this is the answer.

Yes, red light runners are no more intelligent than a dog but they are still human. A dog should be disciplined when they are doing wrong because they don't understand that they did something wrong yesterday and you are punishing them now, they just don't have the same communication skills. Humans on the other hand are easily disciplined by taking money from them. Yes it would be more effective to have a police officer at every intersection but not very practical. Cameras are effective because there is no question whether the guilty party ran that light or not, it is in print for anyone to see. The very least it might do is get idiots out of the habits that are so incredibly stupid that everytime I witness people do it I have to thank God he gave me more sense(I end up thanking God constantly). What does anyone gain by running a stop sign or a light, a few seconds, what an assinine way to save such little amount of time.

[jillian]

It also doesn't work because the people who are the worst offenders now put something over their license plate which obscures the plate when a picture's taken.

Does it deter others, who knows? Probably the people who wouldn't run red lights anyway.

[Sitarro]

I saw that, but Philidelphia is not Atlanta. In Atlanta, speeding, even with cameras, became such a source of animosity between citizens and the government, that the government just gave up. As a result, everybody around here goes 80 or more, even on the 55 bypass. It doesn't and won't help here.

Edit: If they do implement them and they do work, I'll go back on my statement, but most Atlanta area lights that I've seen have short yellow durations and kooky cycles, as if they're DARING you to run them. I think the city's just trying to pick up more revenue.

And btw, I DON'T run red lights. I have nice breaks and a light car, so I only even go through yellows about half the time.

I don't agree with shortening the yellow light time, that should be consistent at every light. I also find it hard to believe that in the year 2007 that there isn't a way to synch traffic lights to reward the person that drives the speed limit and actually penalizes the speeders. Roads that have traffic lights usually need them and speeding isn't a wise thing to do..... the open highway is another matter. If you drive a vehicle that is capable and you are in the far left lane, speeding isn't that big of a deal. A two lane road with a lot of traffic is a different story.

[trobinett]

Mostly they are an intimidating factor. What many don't know is they don't work most of the time!

My daughter was involved in an accident in an intersection that had cameras. She contacted the city fathers to get a copy of the film from those cameras for evidence in her court case. She was told, that the cameras haven't worked since they were installed!

Doesn't bother me that there are cameras located at intersections. The road doesnt belong to me, or to you, we share, if you break the laws of the road, you SHOULD be punished. Might as well use some of this high-tec stuff for the general well being.

[Sitarro]

Mostly they are an intimidating factor. What many don't know is they don't work most of the time!

My daughter was involved in an accident in an intersection that had cameras. She contacted the city fathers to get a copy of the film from those cameras for evidence in her court case. She was told, that the cameras haven't worked since they were installed!

Doesn't bother me that there are cameras located at intersections. The road doesnt belong to me, or to you, we share, if you break the laws of the road, you SHOULD be punished. Might as well use some of this high-tec stuff for the general well being.


I know that when they first installed them in Phoenix they said that they didn't have the budjet to have cmeras in all of the boxes so they moved them around....you just never knew if that intersection had a camera or not.

[Insein]

They're great! They work well! Install more!

Then install the jaywalking camera next. You jay walk you get a $100 fine in the mail within the week. But wait that won't work, no license plate. Install chips into people's brains so that we know who, where, what and when everyone is at all times. In fact we dont need the cameras then. The chip will simply send an electronic email notifying authorities when a person has performed and illegal action. Then the bill comes in the mail at the end of the week. People can start a citation tab and then just pay the government like a credit card at the end of the month.

Its a great idea. :bang3:

[Mr. P]

Then install the jaywalking camera next. You jay walk you get a $100 fine in the mail within the week. But wait that won't work, no license plate. Install chips into people's brains so that we know who, where, what and when everyone is at all times. In fact we dont need the cameras then. The chip will simply send an electronic email notifying authorities when a person has performed and illegal action. Then the bill comes in the mail at the end of the week. People can start a citation tab and then just pay the government like a credit card at the end of the month.

Its a great idea. :bang3:

Right. Don't be silly you don't need a license to walk, you do to drive on public roads. That license comes with conditions, can't abide by them you get fined.

[5stringJeff]

I'm in favor of red light cameras, provided they are coupled with yellow light times sufficient for a person to safely slow down before they reach the intersection. Shorter yellow lights mean a shorter stopping distance. A longer yellow (say 3-4 seconds) would give drivers sufficient time to stop safely. Then, all the red light runners would have the "safety" excuse taken from them, and could be fined appropriately.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm in favor of red light cameras, provided they are coupled with yellow light times sufficient for a person to safely slow down before they reach the intersection. Shorter yellow lights mean a shorter stopping distance. A longer yellow (say 3-4 seconds) would give drivers sufficient time to stop safely. Then, all the red light runners would have the "safety" excuse taken from them, and could be fined appropriately.
Boo red light cameras. I'm a late-night redlight runner and a yellowlight speeder-upper. I figure if no one's around, where's the harm? It's stupid to sit at an intersection and watch nothing go by. Having cameras that catch us "breaking the law" is the same principle as a dog with a radio collar on. If the government can "zap" us for every little thing, where does our freedom go? We end up being rats in a cage.

[5stringJeff]

Boo red light cameras. I'm a late-night redlight runner and a yellowlight speeder-upper. I figure if no one's around, where's the harm? It's stupid to sit at an intersection and watch nothing go by. Having cameras that catch us "breaking the law" is the same principle as a dog with a radio collar on. If the government can "zap" us for every little thing, where does our freedom go? We end up being rats in a cage.

As I understand it, the cameras snap a couple of times only as the lights change to red. So technically, I suppose you could wait until they were done flashing and run the red light afterwards.

[darin]

Traffic Cameras are scams. Pure and simple. The ONLY Benefit is to gov't and camera companies who make MILLIONS per year victimizing and criminalizing otherwise honest people.

[The ClayTaurus]

As I understand it, the cameras snap a couple of times only as the lights change to red. So technically, I suppose you could wait until they were done flashing and run the red light afterwards.Not true in all cases. The ones near me have big obnoxious strobe flashes that go off after they detect you in the interesection. Heaven forbid if those went off at every light change *shudder*

[darin]

Dude - Clay...a hack saw...and the cover of night... :)

[5stringJeff]

Traffic Cameras are scams. Pure and simple. The ONLY Benefit is to gov't and camera companies who make MILLIONS per year victimizing and criminalizing otherwise honest people.

Criminalizing someone who's breaking the law by running a red light? Banish the thought!

[darin]

Criminalizing someone who's breaking the law by running a red light? Banish the thought!

Criminalizing the owner of a CAR without due process = Retarded. Sometimes it's SAFER to break a specific law, then comply with the law and face injury.

[The ClayTaurus]

Criminalizing someone who's breaking the law by running a red light? Banish the thought!It's a common falacy (IMO) that the answer to "bad" behavior is always criminalization. It's why the war on drugs is such a massive failure.

[darin]

It's a common falacy (IMO) that the answer to "bad" behavior is always criminalization. It's why the war on drugs is such a massive failure.

It's called "Throwing Policy at a Problem" See also: Cable Median Barriers.

[Mr. P]

I'm in favor of red light cameras, provided they are coupled with yellow light times sufficient for a person to safely slow down before they reach the intersection. Shorter yellow lights mean a shorter stopping distance. A longer yellow (say 3-4 seconds) would give drivers sufficient time to stop safely. Then, all the red light runners would have the "safety" excuse taken from them, and could be fined appropriately.

This works very well for those who aren’t speeding to start with. Here the state law for yellow to red is 1 second for every 10 mph of the speed limit. So a 35 mph limit gets 3.5 seconds of yellow, plenty of time to stop safely.

Unless my math is wrong (and it’s possible) 3.5 seconds @ 35 mph = 193 feet traveled, 2 seconds = 110 feet, 1 sec = 55.22 feet. Who can’t stop it that distance?

There is virtually NO excuse for running a light.

[darin]

This works very well for those who aren’t speeding to start with. Here the state law for yellow to red is 1 second for every 10 mph of the speed limit. So a 35 mph limit gets 3.5 seconds of yellow, plenty of time to stop safely.

Unless my math is wrong (and it’s possible) 3.5 seconds @ 35 mph = 193 feet traveled, 2 seconds = 110 feet, 1 sec = 55.22 feet. Who can’t stop it that distance?

I bet my car could stop from 35MPH in 35 feet.

:)

The PROBLEM is...the car behind me likely could NOT. That's why Red-Light Cameras SUCK...People get rear-ended...in a non-homo way.

[Abbey Marie]

With a daughter currently in driver's ed, who will soon be a licensed driver, :eek: I am for just about anything that will deter red-light running morons. I am expereiced enough to anticipate bad drivers, but teenagers don't have a clue what they are up against.

As for all the arguments against the cameras, it's simple: if you don't run red lights, you won't get a ticket.

[darin]

As for all the arguments against the cameras, it's simple: if you don't run red lights, you won't get a ticket.

Unless somebody else is driving your car...

But you MAY get rear-ended.

[Mr. P]

I bet my car could stop from 35MPH in 35 feet.

:)

The PROBLEM is...the car behind me likely could NOT. That's why Red-Light Cameras SUCK...People get rear-ended...in a non-homo way.

I'm sure most cars can too, the guy behind you must be an idiot and of course at fault.

EDIT: I should add if you run a light to avoid a rear ender and cause an accident, you are at fault.

[darin]

I'm sure most cars can too, the guy behind you must be an idiot and of course at fault.

There are VERY FEW cars which can stop as fast as mine. If I saw a light turning red, in a camera area, I'd slam those brakes. Cuz "That's be SAFER" right? Safer than being 1 second-after-red thru the intersection??

:-/

[Mr. P]

Unless somebody else is driving your car...

But you MAY get rear-ended.

Don't loan yer car out.

[Mr. P]

There are VERY FEW cars which can stop as fast as mine. If I saw a light turning red, in a camera area, I'd slam those brakes. Cuz "That's be SAFER" right? Safer than being 1 second-after-red thru the intersection??

:-/
Goes back to speeding, d.

and paying attention.

[darin]

Don't loan yer car out.

That's a good non-solution. How about don't endanger the public by installing Red-Light cameras just to make a few bucks for TheMan? Then we ALL win. Bureaucrats don't get their $45,000 "FOUO" Gov't cars...and people don't die from getting rear-ended at intersections with the lights.

[darin]

Goes back to speeding, d.

Not at all. I say, MOST of the time, it goes back to 'circumstance' - not speeding.

[Mr. P]

Not at all. I say, MOST of the time, it goes back to 'circumstance' - not speeding.

That's only because you reject all driving laws. . :poke:

[Roopull]

Taxation via Citation. Red light cameras do NOTHING but increase accidents and revenue for governments. Don't get me started on traffic laws...I'll rant and rave at the stupidity of the public for putting up with how things are.
According to a recent study done in the county I live in, accidents did go up the first year, but there were more "fender benders" & fewer of the deadly T-bone variety.

The following year, accidents fell to levels far below what they were before the cameras were installed.



Edit: If they do implement them and they do work, I'll go back on my statement, but most Atlanta area lights that I've seen have short yellow durations and kooky cycles, as if they're DARING you to run them. I think the city's just trying to pick up more revenue.

And btw, I DON'T run red lights. I have nice breaks and a light car, so I only even go through yellows about half the time.
As crazy as that post might sound, Hobbit is absolutely right. There's a light I go through every night that cycles so quickly, I can't get my car through it before it goes red, again! It's in a small-town suburb with a reputation for having d!ckhead cops. And yeah... we speed like madmen around here. Going 55 (the speed limit) on our bypass is a good way to get killed.


Unless somebody else is driving your car...

But you MAY get rear-ended.
A woman I work with got nailed by one of these cameras recently. They mailed her the citation along with five pretty color photos. Three of the rear of her car showing the red light she clearly ran (as in the light was red when she entered the intersection,) and two of her pretty smiling face with a cell phone planted on the side of her head. I'm not sure about how this works everywhere, but at least where she got busted, they send you a pic of the driver. If you're not the one in the pic, plead your case. I can't see how you could be convicted...


I'm not 100% sold on these & I was certainly NOT a fan when they were introduced. Call me a bit of a convert, though. The data clearly shows that with time... following a bit of a learning curve... people comply. I'm all for that. There are plenty of traffic laws that I think are complete BS designed to do nothing but generate income for Uncle Sham, but red light citations simply do not fall into that category.