Illegals Leaving Arizona

[red states rule]

Since new and tougher laws were passed in AZ, illegals are leaving in large numbers. This is what needs to be done in all 50 states

Of course, CNN also blames a rotten economy for the illegal masses flocking out of the state - they could not bring themselves to admit the new laws are the real reason

Also, CNN finds some "victims" of the new laws in a lame attempt to tug at your heart



Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.

For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.

And by all appearances, it's starting to work.

"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."

Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.

"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."

He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."

"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."

There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.

State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.

"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."

Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.

Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.

"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."

When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.

for the complete article

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html

[OCA]

Are you fucking kidding me with all the CNN shit?

Lou "I hate Mexicans" Dobbs is on CNN for chrissakes!

[trobinett]

Posted by rsr:


When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.

Seems simple enough, wounder why our officials in Washington can't figure this out?

[OCA]

Posted by rsr:



Seems simple enough, wounder why our officials in Washington can't figure this out?

Yes but the economy also suffers, not so simple now is it?

[Kathianne]

Posted by rsr:



Seems simple enough, wounder why our officials in Washington can't figure this out?

That's always been my take. Those risking life and limb to come in are for the main hardworking and trying to better their lives and those of their families.

IF the government would enforce the laws currently on the book, the employers would be fined, jailed after repeats. If the jobs dried up, they would go home. When at least half had done so, I think it would be reasonable to up the quotas legally from Mexico, double or even triple. Then they wouldn't be 'in the shadows.' Then they wouldn't be exploited like so many are today. What we have going on is a loss of our sovereignty and have a near slavery situation that's been instituted, with as diverse groups as large agri businesses, the Catholic Church, and many progressives calling those that want reasonable enforcement xenophobes, racists, etc. In actuality it's the former groups that are either exploiting the illegals, trying to drive up numbers of potential voters, or sincerely care about the illegals, but ignoring what is exploitation.

[82Marine89]

Yes but the economy also suffers, not so simple now is it?

Care to elaborate? Got any links to prove this point?

[JohnDoe]

Yes but the economy also suffers, not so simple now is it?
Like with any other jobs in a Free Market economy, if there is a shortage of anything, including WORKERS, then the price goes up.

So, the businesses would have to raise the salaries of these positions in order to find and get workers to work them.

Working around the normal market only holds the worker's self worth down and holds down the value of all workers, illegal and legal citizens.

If we upped our LEGAL QUOTAS, then the immigrants could demand more money for themselves and negotiate higher salaries along side of the Americans and be a part of the free market system instead of being scared to death and virtually be held in captivity to the lower wages, which would also help the citizens of this great country.


jd

[OCA]

Care to elaborate? Got any links to prove this point?

Links are not needed, logic only is required.

If its generally accepted that illegals occupy jobs in about 3 different sectors, agriculture, construction and hospitality/entertainment/service and that the reality is that there are not legals waiting in line to take those jobs and that even if they were its not fair to employers to have to pay more money for less and shoddier work from legals, then its only logical to think that if all of a sudden there is a huge labor shortage in those areas the economy will most certainly suffer and the economy is the single most important thing in America.

[Kathianne]

Links are not needed, logic only is required.

If its generally accepted that illegals occupy jobs in about 3 different sectors, agriculture, construction and hospitality/entertainment/service and that the reality is that there are not legals waiting in line to take those jobs and that even if they were its not fair to employers to have to pay more money for less and shoddier work from legals, then its only logical to think that if all of a sudden there is a huge labor shortage in those areas the economy will most certainly suffer and the economy is the single most important thing in America.

Slavery kept cotton king for a long, long time. That didn't make it right. The South was better off economically when it learned to compete, fairly.

[OCA]

Slavery kept cotton king for a long, long time. That didn't make it right. The South was better off economically when it learned to compete, fairly.

Slaves didn't get paid a wage, illegals do so the slavery argument is a strawman.

[red states rule]

Are you fucking kidding me with all the CNN shit?

Lou "I hate Mexicans" Dobbs is on CNN for chrissakes!

Lou wants the laws on the book enforced

Why don't you?

[Kathianne]

Slaves didn't get paid a wage, illegals do so the slavery argument is a strawman.

No it is not. Too many of the illegals are being paid below minimum wage, children working rather than going to school. It's worse than slavery, at least the slave's owners recognized their financial worth, not so with the illegals, there's always another to come along.

[red states rule]

Like with any other jobs in a Free Market economy, if there is a shortage of anything, including WORKERS, then the price goes up.

So, the businesses would have to raise the salaries of these positions in order to find and get workers to work them.

Working around the normal market only holds the worker's self worth down and holds down the value of all workers, illegal and legal citizens.

If we upped our LEGAL QUOTAS, then the immigrants could demand more money for themselves and negotiate higher salaries along side of the Americans and be a part of the free market system instead of being scared to death and virtually be held in captivity to the lower wages, which would also help the citizens of this great country.


jd


Spare the sob stories JD. Whenever raides occur the next day US citiazens are lined up to apply for the jobs

They are here not only for the job, but the handouts politicans on both sides want to give them - in exchange for their votes
jd[/QUOTE]

[82Marine89]

Links are not needed, logic only is required.

If its generally accepted that illegals occupy jobs in about 3 different sectors, agriculture, construction and hospitality/entertainment/service and that the reality is that there are not legals waiting in line to take those jobs and that even if they were its not fair to employers to have to pay more money for less and shoddier work from legals, then its only logical to think that if all of a sudden there is a huge labor shortage in those areas the economy will most certainly suffer and the economy is the single most important thing in America.

Since it is generally accepted, does that make it right? If you tell a lie often enough, does that make it the truth? Bottom line is these folks are in violation of our immigration laws. They need to be sent home and made to return the legal way. No shortcuts. No amnesty. We tried that in 1986 and it failed miserably.

I can guarantee you that there are kids/people willing to do those jobs that you and Jorge Arbusto Bush are saying Americans won't do. Well thanks a lot for calling the American people lazy and spitting in our face. And this bullshit about saying it's not fair for employers to pay higher wages for shoddier work. What the fuck is that? Fire the bastard if he can't perform and hire someone else. There is an endless supply of folks on the welfare rolls that can be trained to fill these positions. There are kids that aren't going to college that will need a skill. Start training them in high school. This crap about our workforce drying up is a load of crap.

(FWIW: I respect you OCA, I just don't agree with you on this issue.)

[red states rule]

Since it is generally accepted, does that make it right? If you tell a lie often enough, does that make it the truth? Bottom line is these folks are in violation of our immigration laws. They need to be sent home and made to return the legal way. No shortcuts. No amnesty. We tried that in 1986 and it failed miserably.

I can guarantee you that there are kids/people willing to do those jobs that you and Jorge Arbusto Bush are saying Americans won't do. Well thanks a lot for calling the American people lazy and spitting in our face. And this bullshit about saying it's not fair for employers to pay higher wages for shoddier work. What the fuck is that? Fire the bastard if he can't perform and hire someone else. There is an endless supply of folks on the welfare rolls that can be trained to fill these positions. There are kids that aren't going to college that will need a skill. Start training them in high school. This crap about our workforce drying up is a load of crap.

(FWIW: I respect you OCA, I just don't agree with you on this issue.)

OVA's BS is the only way he can try to justify illegal behavior and then reward it

[OCA]

Whenever raides occur the next day US citiazens are lined up to apply for the jobs

[/QUOTE]

That is a complete fabrication, the meat plant in Boulder is closed now, went out of busines because of loos of production and general lack of punctuality among the people it was "forced" to hire.

Nobody is lining up for those jobs.

[OCA]

Lou wants the laws on the book enforced

Why don't you?

Lou is simply fanning the flames for book profits, pure and simple.

War on the middle class my ass!:laugh2:

[OCA]

Since it is generally accepted, does that make it right? If you tell a lie often enough, does that make it the truth? Bottom line is these folks are in violation of our immigration laws. They need to be sent home and made to return the legal way. No shortcuts. No amnesty. We tried that in 1986 and it failed miserably.

I can guarantee you that there are kids/people willing to do those jobs that you and Jorge Arbusto Bush are saying Americans won't do. Well thanks a lot for calling the American people lazy and spitting in our face. And this bullshit about saying it's not fair for employers to pay higher wages for shoddier work. What the fuck is that? Fire the bastard if he can't perform and hire someone else. There is an endless supply of folks on the welfare rolls that can be trained to fill these positions. There are kids that aren't going to college that will need a skill. Start training them in high school. This crap about our workforce drying up is a load of crap.

(FWIW: I respect you OCA, I just don't agree with you on this issue.)

You simply cannot force a person to work if they are unwilling.

Why should employers be forced to accept lower workmanship and have to pay a higher wage on top of it?

How did it fail in 86? What were the detrimental results of it? I must've missed it.

[red states rule]

That is a complete fabrication, the meat plant in Boulder is closed now, went out of busines because of loos of production and general lack of punctuality among the people it was "forced" to hire.

Nobody is lining up for those jobs.[/QUOTE]

Wrong as usual

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003974.html

and guess what - wages go up for the new workers

[red states rule]

Lou is simply fanning the flames for book profits, pure and simple.

War on the middle class my ass!:laugh2:

Why are you against enforcing in law OCA?

[JohnDoe]

Spare the sob stories JD. Whenever raides occur the next day US citiazens are lined up to apply for the jobs

They are here not only for the job, but the handouts politicans on both sides want to give them - in exchange for their votes
jd[/QUOTE]It is illegal for any immigrant to vote until they have their citizenship....so, if this is the problem, them voting, then we need to address this, and in a serious manner.

I realize that attempts have been made to do this and have failed, but this should not be the end all, we should go back at it and make certain that immigrants do not get the right to vote until they are legal citizens and close the loopholes that may allow this to happen, without disenfranchising legal citizens from their own legal votes.

I used to feel differently on this, until I reread the constitution on the subject and now I am vehemently against the constitution and our laws being broken, regarding this....

[OCA]

OVA's BS is the only way he can try to justify illegal behavior and then reward it

If we purge illegals then I say include welfare cheats such a yourself and NM.

Remember I already caught you in that lie so be a man and don't start the denials.

[Kathianne]

That is a complete fabrication, the meat plant in Boulder is closed now, went out of busines because of loos of production and general lack of punctuality among the people it was "forced" to hire.

Nobody is lining up for those jobs.[/QUOTE]

There were people that wanted the jobs, the company did not want to pay the necessary wages, before or after it changed workforce:

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20061226/NEWS/112230087&SearchID=73290714671749


...For example, in March 1980, Monfort closed its Greeley plant, citing cost efficiency.

It rehired and reopened two years later without a union contract using a high percentage of Hispanic workers. By closing its plant and reopening without the union, Monfort cut its labor costs by 25 percent.

The 1980s produced similar efforts by nearly all of the meatpackers. As a result, the industry was able to cut its hourly wages by nearly half. What had once been the highest paying of all manufacturing jobs has, since 1984, been one of the lowest. What was once the most organized industry from the labor standpoint now has a mere 10 to 30 percent union membership in many plants....

It's not that US citizens won't do the work, it's they won't do it for less than 1/2 what they should make.

[OCA]

Why are you against enforcing in law OCA?

Because enforcing that law damages the economy and in turn damages America?

Why do you hate America so much that you would purposely damage her?

[red states rule]

It is illegal for any immigrant to vote until they have their citizenship....so, if this is the problem, them voting, then we need to address this, and in a serious manner.

I realize that attempts have been made to do this and have failed, but this should not be the end all, we should go back at it and make certain that immigrants do not get the right to vote until they are legal citizens and close the loopholes that may allow this to happen, without disenfranchising legal citizens from their own legal votes.

I used to feel differently on this, until I reread the constitution on the subject and now I am vehemently against the constitution and our laws being broken, regarding this....[/QUOTE]

JD, when Dems passed the "motor voter" law, when they get their drivers license they are also given a voter registration form. They fill it out, and check they are US citizens, and guess what, they can vote!

and it is NOT checked by the local government

[Kathianne]

Because enforcing that law damages the economy and in turn damages America?

Why do you hate America so much that you would purposely damage her?

Why do you think de facto slavery is good for our country?

[OCA]

That is a complete fabrication, the meat plant in Boulder is closed now, went out of busines because of loos of production and general lack of punctuality among the people it was "forced" to hire.

Nobody is lining up for those jobs.


There were people that wanted the jobs, the company did not want to pay the necessary wages, before or after it changed workforce:

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20061226/NEWS/112230087&SearchID=73290714671749

It's not that US citizens won't do the work, it's they won't do it for less than 1/2 what they should make.

They do 1/2 the work as illegals but should get more money? How do you come to this conclusion?




*edit - quotes were mixed up, now fixed - MtnBiker

[red states rule]

Because enforcing that law damages the economy and in turn damages America?

Why do you hate America so much that you would purposely damage her?

so you want to pick and choose what laws are to be enforced?

BTW, it does not harm the economy - read the above link where I proved you were wrong the jobs are filled by US citizens

[OCA]

Why do you think de facto slavery is good for our country?

Did you know that there was a character in Wizard Of Oz who was filled with straw?

[red states rule]

Did you know that there was a character in Wizard Of Oz who was filled with straw?

are you always so obnoxious to those who disagree with you?

[OCA]

so you want to pick and choose what laws are to be enforced?

BTW, it does not harm the economy - read the above link where I proved you were wrong the jobs are filled by US citizens

Dec.23,2006...killer.

Its gone now........loss of production due to lazier hirees.

[Kathianne]

Did you know that there was a character in Wizard Of Oz who was filled with straw?

and their was that lion, that was afraid to honestly and fairly respond to any substantive posts.

[red states rule]

Dec.23,2006...killer.

Its gone now........loss of production due to lazier hirees.

Did not read the link I provided I see. Still an open border guy who smears his own country to try and make his lame arguement more credible

[Kathianne]

Did not read the link I provided I see. Still an open border guy who smears his own country to try and make his lame arguement more credible

Not to mention changing what one posts, misusing the quote feature.

[red states rule]

Not to mention changing what one posts, misusing the quote feature.

Desperate people do desperate things

[OCA]

are you always so obnoxious to those who disagree with you?

Jesus Christ! Are you and your gang always a bunch of thin skinned pussies? You lack of balls is embarrassing to me.

[red states rule]

Jesus Christ! Are you and your gang always a bunch of thin skinned pussies? You lack of balls is embarrassing to me.

I see you admit to being so

When one falls back on insults, you know that they know, they are losing

[OCA]

Not to mention changing what one posts, misusing the quote feature.

Lie, complete fabrication. How disappointing that you would resort to this.

[OCA]

I see you admit to being so

When one falls back on insults, you know that they know, they are losing

I'm winning, there is currently no immigration bills moving through Congress, its the status quo and I love it.

[OCA]

and their was that lion, that was afraid to honestly and fairly respond to any substantive posts.


Where have I refused to respond honestly to posts?

Never tought you would fall into the hyperbole of RSR and his gang.

[red states rule]

I'm winning, there is currently no immigration bills moving through Congress, its the status quo and I love it.

glad to see you love the laws of the US being violated - then you bitch about other laws not being enforced

you just love to whine about anything and everything

[red states rule]

Where have I refused to respond honestly to posts?

Never tought you would fall into the hyperbole of RSR and his gang.

You just deny, duck, dodge, and ignore the facts. Other then that you do fine

[OCA]

glad to see you love the laws of the US being violated - then you bitch about other laws not being enforced

you just love to whine about anything and everything

No, I love money and making it, I love low costs on products and services, thats all that matters.

[red states rule]

No, I love money and making it, I love low costs on products and services, thats all that matters.

and you could care less US laws are being violated, and you assist the criminals at the same time.

at least you are honest on this subject

[OCA]

You just deny, duck, dodge, and ignore the facts. Other then that you do fine

Untrue, I provide the facts, you guys provide this unrealistic view of the American worker and the economical situation concerning labor in America.

[OCA]

and you could care less US laws are being violated, and you assist the criminals at the same time.

at least you are honest on this subject

Those laws have been being violated and illegals have been pouring over for decades now and my life hasn't changed 1 iota, in fact its improved.

I love it!

[red states rule]

Untrue, I provide the facts, you guys provide this unrealistic view of the American worker and the economical situation concerning labor in America.

Facts taken from the Twilight Zone do not count

No comment on the link that showed US workers were hired - and the wages went up?

I did not think so

[OCA]

Facts taken from the Twilight Zone do not count

No comment on the link that showed US workers were hired - and the wages went up?

I did not think so


Your not listening, that place is closed now.

[red states rule]

Those laws have been being violated and illegals have been pouring over for decades now and my life hasn't changed 1 iota, in fact its improved.

I love it!

Here is another link that blows your lazy worker crap out of the water

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003974.html

[red states rule]

Your not listening, that place is closed now.

not the same plant

This one is in another state

In fact all 6 plants saw Americans line up for the jobs

[82Marine89]

You simply cannot force a person to work if they are unwilling.

Correct, but I shouldn't have to subsidize their welfare either.


Why should employers be forced to accept lower workmanship and have to pay a higher wage on top of it?

They shouldn't. They will pay what the market dictates and fire those employees that don't perform. It's called a free market economy.


How did it fail in 86? What were the detrimental results of it? I must've missed it.

It was supposed to be the one and only amnesty. ALL immigration laws were supposed to be enforced. Pesky little shit like that.

[OCA]

not the same plant

This one is in another state

In fact all 6 plants saw Americans line up for the jobs

OOOOOH 6 plants, too bad that the owners of those plants got to accept less work and pay a higher wage, but hey thats what America is about. You must be a union man.

Hey you willing to line up for the jobs that would be available in the San Joaquin Valley harvesting crops? I mean you are an unemployed American, the requirements are sunup to sundown everyday in 100 plus heat.

Nah didn't think so, nobody else did it either.

[OCA]

Here is another link that blows your lazy worker crap out of the water

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003974.html

It does? It says nothing about work ethic.

Latinos have a naturally stronger work ethic than us, thats a fact.

[MtnBiker]

All businesses have costs of goods and production. When one business lowers its costs in an illegal manner while other companies continue to operate in a legal manner at higher costs this creates an unfair competitive market. All meat packers are highly regulated by the USDA and at a cost. Should meat packer abandon there regulatory processes to lower costs?

[OCA]

Correct, but I shouldn't have to subsidize their welfare either.







I 100% agree with that. I think people like RSR and NM should have to payback what they stole from the American worker.

[red states rule]

OOOOOH 6 plants, too bad that the owners of those plants got to accept less work and pay a higher wage, but hey thats what America is about. You must be a union man.

Hey you willing to line up for the jobs that would be available in the San Joaquin Valley harvesting crops? I mean you are an unemployed American, the requirements are sunup to sundown everyday in 100 plus heat.

Nah didn't think so, nobody else did it either.

My, first you are a mortage expert, then a political analyist, now a labor consultant

You really are a legend in your own mind OCA

[OCA]

All business have costs of goods and production. When one business lowers its costs in an illegal manner while other companies continue to operate in a legal manner at higher costs this creates an unfair competitive market. All meat packers are highly regulated by the USDA and at a cost. Should meat packer abandon there regulatory processes to lower costs?

And if amnesty was granted to illegals already here then it would be inna legal manner.

You see there is no possible way that all will be found and deported or will, what is the crazy catchphrase on the kooky right today, "self-deport:laugh2:, so your choices are two and two only.......either we grant them amnesty and start collecting taxes on them and form them into productive citizens or we just accept that they are here and here illegally and go about our business.

Either way its no skin off my back.

[OCA]

My, first you are a mortage expert, then a political analyist, now a labor consultant

You really are a legend in your own mind OCA

Yep, expert in all 3.

[red states rule]

Yep, expert in all 3.

only in your opinion

[MtnBiker]

The border needs to be sealed first. Then amnesty could be granted, alone with english becoming the offical language.

[82Marine89]

And if amnesty was granted to illegals already here then it would be inna legal manner.

So it doesn't matter that the '86 Amnesty was supposed to be the one and only?


You see there is no possible way that all will be found and deported or will, what is the crazy catchphrase on the kooky right today, "self-deport:laugh2:, so your choices are two and two only.......either we grant them amnesty and start collecting taxes on them and form them into productive citizens or we just accept that they are here and here illegally and go about our business.

Either way its no skin off my back.

Already been addressed.

[OCA]

The border needs to be sealed first. Then amnesty could be granted, alone with english becoming the offical language.

I've said this all along.

[OCA]

So it doesn't matter that the '86 Amnesty was supposed to be the one and only?





Nah, we pass stuff all the time that addresses what was supposed to be the "one and only", I got no problem with that.

[5stringJeff]

The border should be sealed first, then every illegal that we can deport, we should deport.

Arizona's law is meant to decrease the demand for illegal labor, and it's working. The other 49 states would do well to pass similar versions of this law.

[red states rule]

The border should be sealed first, then every illegal that we can deport, we should deport.

Arizona's law is meant to decrease the demand for illegal labor, and it's working. The other 49 states would do well to pass similar versions of this law.

Another person who gets it

Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and your family

[82Marine89]

I'm winning, there is currently no immigration bills moving through Congress, its the status quo and I love it.

Really? You're winning? I don't see amnesty making it's way through congress. In fact, if I remember correctly, they had to pull one off the table because the majority of Americans opposed it and stated so with a voice that echoed through the halls of congress.

[OCA]

Really? You're winning? I don't see amnesty making it's way through congress. In fact, if I remember correctly, they had to pull one off the table because the majority of Americans opposed it and stated so with a voice that echoed through the halls of congress.

Yes, i'm winning, in a Demo congress the only thing that has a chance of getting even to committee is an amnesty bill, anything else doesn't even stand a chance.

Basicaly what I predict will happen is the Demos will gain a bunch more seats in '08 and then amnesty will get passed.

[OCA]

I've yet to ever hear, in all my time here, anyone explain just exactly why amnesty will be the ruin of America.

Oh i'm sure now will get the financial thingy(Bush tried to fix that) and the usual social complaints, but just how in the hell will they RUIN the country?

[red states rule]

I've yet to ever hear, in all my time here, anyone explain just exactly why amnesty will be the ruin of America.

Oh i'm sure now will get the financial thingy(Bush tried to fix that) and the usual social complaints, but just how in the hell will they RUIN the country?

Pres Reagan did it in the 80's and the problem is now worse

Here is how illegals cost taxpayers money in just one state

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=5081

[5stringJeff]

I've yet to ever hear, in all my time here, anyone explain just exactly why amnesty will be the ruin of America.

Oh i'm sure now will get the financial thingy(Bush tried to fix that) and the usual social complaints, but just how in the hell will they RUIN the country?

It's called "rule of law." How are we supposed to tell 20 million illegals 'OK, you broke the law to get in here, shame on us, now don't break any more laws, or else!' It tells the 20 million still here that they are free to break the law and scream "Racism!" if they get caught; it tells everyone outside America that our immigration laws aremeaningless and to come on over.

[red states rule]

It's called "rule of law." How are we supposed to tell 20 million illegals 'OK, you broke the law to get in here, shame on us, now don't break any more laws, or else!' It tells the 20 million still here that they are free to break the law and scream "Racism!" if they get caught; it tells everyone outside America that our immigration laws aremeaningless and to come on over.

and when the illegals are deported, the liberla media whines about the spouse and kids being spereated from their parent

When you have millions of ilegals protesting in the streets DEMANDING the USA give them things - that is to much

[OCA]

It's called "rule of law." How are we supposed to tell 20 million illegals 'OK, you broke the law to get in here, shame on us, now don't break any more laws, or else!' It tells the 20 million still here that they are free to break the law and scream "Racism!" if they get caught; it tells everyone outside America that our immigration laws aremeaningless and to come on over.


I know, I know its a tough bullet but you are gonna have to bite it because you will never, I repeat never deport even a tiny fraction of those 20,000,000.

[OCA]

Pres Reagan did it in the 80's and the problem is now worse

Here is how illegals cost taxpayers money in just one state

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=5081

Bush tried to fix that but you guys loved the status quo too much, gives ya something to bitch about.

[red states rule]

Bush tried to fix that but you guys loved the status quo too much, gives ya something to bitch about.

Yea, the nerve of the rest of wanting laws enforced. Oh the inhumanity!!

Meanwhile we fork over more and more of our tax money to the non citizens

[OCA]

Yea, the nerve of the rest of wanting laws enforced. Oh the inhumanity!!

Meanwhile we fork over more and more of our tax money to the non citizens

Bush tried to fix that, you guys shot him down because you love the status quo.

[red states rule]

Bush tried to fix that, you guys shot him down because you love the status quo.

granting amnesty is not fixing the problem - it is adding to it

[OCA]

granting amnesty is not fixing the problem - it is adding to it

No, its fixing the problem. If its accepted fact that you will never be able to deport even a tiny fraction of the 20,000,000 already here and you guys are pissed off that they aren't paying taxes then it makes perfect sense to get them on the path to citizenship and start collecting taxes.

Bush was and is right on this issue.

[OCA]

Lets get 1 thing straight, no more talk of deportation, its impossible both financially and logistically.

Only viable solutions from here on out.

[Dilloduck]

Lets get 1 thing straight, no more talk of deportation, its impossible both financially and logistically.

Only viable solutions from here on out.

One at a time when they commit a crime works for me.

[red states rule]

No, its fixing the problem. If its accepted fact that you will never be able to deport even a tiny fraction of the 20,000,000 already here and you guys are pissed off that they aren't paying taxes then it makes perfect sense to get them on the path to citizenship and start collecting taxes.

Bush was and is right on this issue.

It did not fix the problem in the 80's

Rewarding ilegal behaviour never solves the problem

[OCA]

One at a time when they commit a crime works for me.

You've been here a long time and you know that I advocate a no tolerance for felon committing illegals. If you have committed a felony or commit one after you've been given citizenship you are gone, no questions asked.

[OCA]

It did not fix the problem in the 80's

Rewarding ilegal behaviour never solves the problem

Why not? We've rewarded Bush for almost 8 years now, seems to have worked for him.

[red states rule]

You've been here a long time and you know that I advocate a no tolerance for felon committing illegals. If you have committed a felony or commit one after you've been given citizenship you are gone, no questions asked.

that should take care of a large number if the illegals right there

[Dilloduck]

You've been here a long time and you know that I advocate a no tolerance for felon committing illegals. If you have committed a felony or commit one after you've been given citizenship you are gone, no questions asked.

Good to hear you at least support deportation in some circumstances---I would support deportation for ANY crime committed by an illegal.

[red states rule]

Why not? We've rewarded Bush for almost 8 years now, seems to have worked for him.

Back to your talking points already? You really should seek treatment for your Bush Derangement Syndrome

[OCA]

that should take care of a large number if the illegals right there

OOOOH racism rears its ugly head! You buy into every lie thats put out there like Kobayashi wolfing down hot dogs at a contest.

[red states rule]

OOOOH racism rears its ugly head! You buy into every lie thats put out there like Kobayashi wolfing down hot dogs at a contest.

Most of the murder warents outstanding in LA are for illegals

Jails are full of illegals who broke more of our laws

Not racism - just the facts

[OCA]

Good to hear you at least support deportation in some circumstances---I would support deportation for ANY crime committed by an illegal.

Well i'm talking after amnesty but currently thats a way they are catching 1 or two here and there...................and when they want to ruin some business that is hiring them because there was no other option.

[OCA]

Most of the murder warents outstanding in LA are for illegals

Jails are full of illegals who broke more of our laws

Not racism - just the facts

In L.A. eh? Couldn't be because its within two hours of the border could it?

Ever thought of why most of the towns in California have Spanish names?

[Dilloduck]

Well i'm talking after amnesty but currently thats a way they are catching 1 or two here and there...................and when they want to ruin some business that is hiring them because there was no other option.

Are you claiming the business has no other option than hiring illegals ?

[red states rule]

In L.A. eh? Couldn't be because its within two hours of the border could it?

Ever thought of why most of the towns in California have Spanish names?

So nice of you to dismiss the murders out of hand

First you played the race card - now you dismiss the fact

[red states rule]

Are you claiming the business has no other option than hiring illegals ?

I blew that excuse out of the water in a previous post

[Kathianne]

Yes, i'm winning, in a Demo congress the only thing that has a chance of getting even to committee is an amnesty bill, anything else doesn't even stand a chance.

Basicaly what I predict will happen is the Demos will gain a bunch more seats in '08 and then amnesty will get passed.

So you are voting for Constitution Party, hoping for Democratic landslide. Gottcha, all for cheap labor. Your a dream.

[OCA]

Are you claiming the business has no other option than hiring illegals ?


I'm saying that is the case sometimes. Like i've stated before, I knew an apple farmer, well hell I still know him but he's 80 something now, he married my grandmother after my grandfather passed on and he used to have only Mexicans working for him, like 4 or 5, he said he had them because that all he could afford and that they did one hell of a job. His yearly cycle was to take out a loan to plant, harvest the crop, sell it, pay off the loan and then take out another one for the next year. Many many farms and ranches operate like this because there is no profit in it anymore but............we still have to friggin eat.

Let me ask this question: why do illegals work harder and provide better quality than legals who want more money but provide less?

[OCA]

So you are voting for Constitution Party, hoping for Democratic landslide. Gottcha, all for cheap labor. Your a dream.

Hoping hell! No reason to hope, its a foregone conclusion. Do I like it? No, but the Repubs give me no other choice with the collection of losers they've offered up this year.

Whether you want to accept or even admit it America's economy is based upon this source of cheap labor, I didn't make the rules I just live by them.

[Dilloduck]

I'm saying that is the case sometimes. Like i've stated before, I knew an apple farmer, well hell I still know him but he's 80 something now, he married my grandmother after my grandfather passed on and he used to have only Mexicans working for him, like 4 or 5, he said he had them because that all he could afford and that they did one hell of a job. His yearly cycle was to take out a loan to plant, harvest the crop, sell it, pay off the loan and then take out another one for the next year. Many many farms and ranches operate like this because there is no profit in it anymore but............we still have to friggin eat.

Let me ask this question: why do illegals work harder and provide better quality than legals who want more money but provide less?

Because America doesn't value manual labor. They think if you work with you hands you are "lesser".

[OCA]

I blew that excuse out of the water in a previous post


No, actually you didn't.

Provide a list of names of Americans willing to line up for the kind of jobs currently being held by Americans, then we will let those Americans go do that work(provided there are any who want that job which is doubtful) and start up a pool on how long it takes before that business goes under.

[red states rule]

No, actually you didn't.

Provide a list of names of Americans willing to line up for the kind of jobs currently being held by Americans, then we will let those Americans go do that work(provided there are any who want that job which is doubtful) and start up a pool on how long it takes before that business goes under.

First you tried to say the meat plant was closed, then you said the ONE in the article was closed

When I pointed out all six plants attracted US workers you dismissed it

Lost another on OCA, and not man enough to admit it

[OCA]

Because America doesn't value manual labor. They think if you work with you hands you are "lesser".

Bingo! Give that man a prize!

For the last half century we've been extolling the virtues of higher education, hell over education in many instances and that you need to have all these degrees and such and that if you ain't involved in the technology field you will be obsolete. Well people took that to heart and POOF! there we have our current labor shortage.

[OCA]

Frist yiou tried to say the meat plant was closed, then you said the ONE in the article was closed

When I pointed out all six plants attracted US workers you dismissed it

Lost another on OCA, and not man enough to admit it

The one in Boulder is currently closed.

Americans simply will not work the jobs ently held by illegals, that is why illegals currently work them, even Acts is smart enough to figure that out.

[red states rule]

The one in Boulder is currently closed.

Americans simply will not work the jobs ently held by illegals, that is why illegals currently work them, even Acts is smart enough to figure that out.

So the other 5 did attract US workers - and the wages went up

Your crap about Americans will not do the jobs illegals do is just that - crap

[OCA]

So nice of you to dismiss the murders out of hand

First you played the race card - now you dismiss the fact


I'm saying that where you have a majority of Hispanics you will have the majority of crimes committed by Hispanics.

BTW you got proof that those murders were committed by illegal Hispanics or you just pulling that out of your ass like everything else you post?

[Kathianne]

Hoping hell! No reason to hope, its a foregone conclusion. Do I like it? No, but the Repubs give me no other choice with the collection of losers they've offered up this year.

Whether you want to accept or even admit it America's economy is based upon this source of cheap labor, I didn't make the rules I just live by them.

You do mean exploit the worker?

[Dilloduck]

Bingo! Give that man a prize!

For the last half century we've been extolling the virtues of higher education, hell over education in many instances and that you need to have all these degrees and such and that if you ain't involved in the technology field you will be obsolete. Well people took that to heart and POOF! there we have our current labor shortage.

Well how about we attempt to reverse that thinking? Instead we propagate it by employing people who are easier to look down on.

[OCA]

So the other 5 did attract US workers - and the wages went up




And the production went down..................imagine that.

[Kathianne]

And the production went down..................imagine that.

Citation please.

[OCA]

You do mean exploit the worker?

Wizard Of Oz Kath, Wizard Of Oz.

[Kathianne]

Well how about we attempt to reverse that thinking? Instead we propagate it by employing people who are easier to look down on.

You mean, 'hard working, by 2X brown people?

[red states rule]

I'm saying that where you have a majority of Hispanics you will have the majority of crimes committed by Hispanics.

BTW you got proof that those murders were committed by illegal Hispanics or you just pulling that out of your ass like everything else you post?

Do you ever get tired of getting your head handed to you?

snip

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

[Kathianne]

The one in Boulder is currently closed.

Americans simply will not work the jobs ently held by illegals, that is why illegals currently work them, even Acts is smart enough to figure that out.

Yes they will, for a fair wage. You know, the one that is escapable to those hiring illegals?

[OCA]

Citation please.


Nope, i've been asking for links and answers to all sorts of stuff and as of this post i've gotten nada, you'll just have to rely on my eyewitness first hand accounts of what I see on my job travels each day.

These are things you can't see inside the classroom Kath.

[Dilloduck]

You mean, 'hard working, by 2X brown people?

No--I mean by paying and appreciating people who do manual work instead of treating them like stupid shits.

[red states rule]

Nope, i've been asking for links and answers to all sorts of stuff and as of this post i've gotten nada, you'll just have to rely on my eyewitness first hand accounts of what I see on my job travels each day.

These are things you can't see inside the classroom Kath.

Sorry, you BS is not cutting it

[OCA]

Yes they will, for a fair wage. You know, the one that is escapable to those hiring illegals?


Oh sure they will apply at a higher wage but will they produce enough to be worthy of that higher wage? No.

[OCA]

Sorry, you BS is not cutting it

Yes it is, you are biased.

[red states rule]

Yes it is, you are biased.

so provinding links and facts to my points is biased?

Guilty as charged

You should try it sometime

[OCA]

Do you ever get tired of getting your head handed to you?

snip

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

Oh well, looks like L.A. is a dangerous city, lets give it back to them, it was their land first anyway.

[OCA]

so provinding links and facts to my points is biased?

Guilty as charged

You should try it sometime

Nope, please provide a list of names of people willing top work these jobs. Plant in Boulder currently closed, loss of production was main reason given.

[Dilloduck]

Oh sure they will apply at a higher wage but will they produce enough to be worthy of that higher wage? No.

Now look at who is the racist ! :laugh2:

[OCA]

Now look at who is the racist ! :laugh2:

I know, I know, the poor hard working American, why its practically a third world country here!

This isn't a new phenomenon, the reduced output of the American worker, hell we've been having our asses handed to us by Asian automakers for almost 30 years now, I count unions to be culpable in all of this too.

[Kathianne]

Oh sure they will apply at a higher wage but will they produce enough to be worthy of that higher wage? No.

Based on what, OCA? The only thing is YOU don't want to pay a fair wage. You want de facto slavery. Not a strawman, but your world and wish.

[Dilloduck]

I know, I know, the poor hard working American, why its practically a third world country here!

This isn't a new phenomenon, the reduced output of the American worker, hell we've been having our asses handed to us by Asian automakers for almost 30 years now, I count unions to be culpable in all of this too.

I don't feel one damn bit sorry for them but a country that thinks contracting out manual labor to foreigners for slave wages is gonna pay a high price for it. Hide and watch.

[OCA]

Based on what, OCA? The only thing is YOU don't want to pay a fair wage. You want de facto slavery. Not a strawman, but your world and wish.

Have you looked at the dollar lately? Trade deficits? Hell look at some products made in the U.S.A., things just don't muster.

[Dilloduck]

Have you looked at the dollar lately? Trade deficits? Hell look at some products made in the U.S.A., things just don't muster.

We tried this once with REAL slavery--now look what we're stuck with !!

[LiberalNation]

Make them citizens, amnesty is a good idea, tho you might not get what your looking for when they unionize for higher wages without fear of deportation and all that.

[Dilloduck]

Make them citizens, amnesty is a good idea, tho you might not get what your looking for when they unionize for higher wages without fear of deportation and all that.

There is NO WAY they will continue to work for the same wages once they obtain citizenship. ZIP NADA We already have one race of ex manual laborers. Why on earth do we want another one ??

[5stringJeff]

I know, I know its a tough bullet but you are gonna have to bite it because you will never, I repeat never deport even a tiny fraction of those 20,000,000.


Lets get 1 thing straight, no more talk of deportation, its impossible both financially and logistically.

Only viable solutions from here on out.

That's BS. You can't just wish away a solution because you don't like it.

Will we ever deport all 20 million illegals? Probably not. We can deport a good number of them, like a million or so, and that gives some great incentives for the rest of them to hitchhike their way back across the border.

Sealing the border and deporting every illegal we possibly can is the only viable immigration policy.

[OCA]

We tried this once with REAL slavery--now look what we're stuck with !!

Very salient point!

[Kathianne]

Have you looked at the dollar lately? Trade deficits? Hell look at some products made in the U.S.A., things just don't muster.

Avoiding the truth.

[OCA]

Avoiding the truth.

LOL! What truth would that be Kath?

[OCA]

That's BS. You can't just wish away a solution because you don't like it.

Will we ever deport all 20 million illegals? Probably not. We can deport a good number of them, like a million or so, and that gives some great incentives for the rest of them to hitchhike their way back across the border.

Sealing the border and deporting every illegal we possibly can is the only viable immigration policy.

Now just how in the hell do you propose to deport even a million? Suppose you did, in the time you did that 3 million came into the country because nobody is talking of ways to do the thing that must be done first..........seal the border.

[82Marine89]

Now just how in the hell do you propose to deport even a million? Suppose you did, in the time you did that 3 million came into the country because nobody is talking of ways to do the thing that must be done first..........seal the border.

How about this? (http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/20.html) The name is unfortunate, but it will work.

[Kathianne]

How about this? (http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/20.html) The name is unfortunate, but it will work.

It and others would work. On the other hand, I'm not so into punitive of the illegals, rather those that employ them, like *gasp* OCA, fine then jail. No exceptions. Make it hurt. Jobs dry up, the illegals will not touch back, but go back.

Then create a reasonable legal entry.

[OCA]

It and others would work. On the other hand, I'm not so into punitive of the illegals, rather those that employ them, like *gasp* OCA, fine then jail. No exceptions. Make it hurt. Jobs dry up, the illegals will not touch back, but go back.

Then create a reasonable legal entry.

I've never employed anyone but a caucasian high school kid, I resent the unfounded implication that I do.

Now with that said if it was necessary and all that was available I would do it in a heartbeat.

[OCA]

How about this? (http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/20.html) The name is unfortunate, but it will work.


Violation of the civil rights of Hispanic looking Americans many of whose families have been in the states before it was the states.

You know that in today's America this has as much chance of flying as a true conservative does of getting elected president.

[Pale Rider]

How about this? (http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/20.html) The name is unfortunate, but it will work.

I don't think the name "wetback" is unfortunate at all. Mexicans swimming the Rio Grande to illegally enter America got a "wet back" in the process, so that's what they used to call them. There's nothing wrong with it. It's a descriptive term for an illegal alien that got wet illegally entering America.

[Pale Rider]

The tide is turning against the illegal alien. Sorry OCA, but you and your amnesty crowd are seriously out numbered by millions to one. I know you were born in another country and immigrated here yourself. Maybe that's why you don't give a rats ass about who's in this country illegally or not. I don't know. But I do know your opinion is a very unpopular one, and not shared by many Americans. Us that were born here, us that have served this country in the military, us that care about this country's sovereignty, we want the illegals gone, and we WILL see them gone. The momentum is growing in the states to get rid of them, and Arizona is just another cog in the wheel. People like what they see with states making these new laws. Law makers will be reelected for that very reason. Not the other way around as you see it. A republican will win the White House because people want the illegals kicked out and the border sealed too. This is serious business.

[Pale Rider]

This letter sent to Tennessee Senator Bill Frist from a retired border patrol agent, and it has more common sense than all the bull being spewed from the Senate, with the exception of a few sensible representatives.



Dear Senator Frist:


There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.

#1.
Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans.
What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.

#2.
There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take low wage jobs, live dozens in a single residence home, share expenses and send money to their home country. There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a decent wage.

#3.
Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT homeless and they are NOT Americans.
Some left jobs in their home countries. They come to send money to their real home as evidenced by the more than 20 billion dollars sent out of the country each year by illegal aliens. These illegal aliens knowingly and willfully entered this nation in violation of the law and therefore assumed the risk of detection and deportation.
Those who brought their alien children assumed the responsibility and risk on behalf of their children.

#4.
Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful U.S. residents.

#5.
This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.

#6.
The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S.
accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.

#7.
There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between.
Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.

#8.
Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico.
Today Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren.

#9.
Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to trash another nation?

#10.
There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.

#11.
It is racist to want secure borders. What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price? For about four decades American politicians have refused to secure our borders and look after the welfare of middle class Americans. These politicians have been of both parties. A huge debt to American society has resulted. This debt will be satisfied and the interest will be high. There has already been riots in the streets by illegal aliens and their supporters. There will be more. You, as a politician, have a choice to offend the illegal aliens who have stolen into this country and demanded the rights afforded to U.S. citizens or to offend those of us who are stakeholders in this country. The interest will be steep either way. There will be civil unrest. There will be a reckoning. Do you have the courage to do what is right for America? Or, will you bow to the wants and needs of those who don't even have the right to remain here? There will be a reckoning. It will come in November of this year, again in 2008 and yet again in 2010. We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.

David J. Stoddard U.S. Border Patrol (RET)
Hereford, Arizona

http://www.freewebs.com/arizona-illegals/

[red states rule]

The tide is turning against the illegal alien. Sorry OCA, but you and your amnesty crowd are seriously out numbered by millions to one. I know you were born in another country and immigrated here yourself. Maybe that's why you don't give a rats ass about who's in this country illegally or not. I don't know. But I do know your opinion is a very unpopular one, and not shared by many Americans. Us that were born here, us that have served this country in the military, us that care about this country's sovereignty, we want the illegals gone, and we WILL see them gone. The momentum is growing in the states to get rid of them, and Arizona is just another cog in the wheel. People like what they see with states making these new laws. Law makers will be reelected for that very reason. Not the other way around as you see it. A republican will win the White House because people want the illegals kicked out and the border sealed too. This is serious business.

In Hazelton, Pa., the Mayor made illegals the #1 issue, New laws were passed, and people like OCA played the race card

They swore they would defeat him in his reelection bid - he won in a huge landslide


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51697

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont like illegal alien apologists, they are scum and dont deserve to be in this country, legal or not


In Hazelton, Pa., the Mayor made illegals the #1 issue, New laws were passed, and people like OCA played the race card

They swore they would defeat him in his reelection bid - he won in a huge landslide


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51697

[red states rule]

I dont like illegal alien apologists, they are scum and dont deserve to be in this country, legal or not

They are invading the country and the US taxpayer a huge amount of money

[actsnoblemartin]

michael savage was right, but the dems cant bring themselves to see evil, they have to find a reason to justify or excuse it, perhaps it had a bad childhood :laugh2:

seriously though, the enablers are the problem, the illegal alien enablers are the worst and should be kicked out


They are invading the country and the US taxpayer a huge amount of money

[red states rule]

michael savage was right, but the dems cant bring themselves to see evil, they have to find a reason to justify or excuse it, perhaps it had a bad childhood :laugh2:

seriously though, the enablers are the problem, the illegal alien enablers are the worst and should be kicked out

Libs (and some RINO's) see the illegals as the new voting block. That is what all this open borders and amnesty is all about

[actsnoblemartin]

there is no better way to say that

i dont like getting a rino virus


:laugh2:


Libs (and some RINO's) see the illegals as the new voting block. That is what all this open borders and amnesty is all about

[red states rule]

there is no better way to say that

i dont like getting a rino virus


:laugh2:

Don't think about what libs and the liberal media say about you and you will not get the RINO virus

[actsnoblemartin]

:laugh2:

what kinda virus would u call liberalism?

l.a.i.d.s. maybe?

Lies and intolerance towards non democrat society

:laugh2::laugh2:

Liberal
Don't think about what libs and the liberal media say about you and you will not get the RINO virus

[actsnoblemartin]

:laugh2:

what kinda virus would u call liberalism?

l.a.i.d.s. maybe?

Lies and intolerance towards non democrat society

:laugh2::laugh2:

Liberal
Don't think about what libs and the liberal media say about you and you will not get the RINO virus

i like this quote...

"if truth mattered, their would be no liberalism"

actsnoblemartin

[red states rule]

:laugh2:

what kinda virus would u call liberalism?

l.a.i.d.s. maybe?

Lies and intolerance towards non democrat society

:laugh2::laugh2:

Liberal

i like this quote...

"if truth mattered, their would be no liberalism"

actsnoblemartin



More like, what benefits our party more? Don't care about the country, but will it give us more power?

[5stringJeff]

Now just how in the hell do you propose to deport even a million? Suppose you did, in the time you did that 3 million came into the country because nobody is talking of ways to do the thing that must be done first..........seal the border.

I want to do both, concurrently.

[OCA]

I want to do both, concurrently.


The deportation is impossible, sealing the border is doable.

[5stringJeff]

The deportation is impossible, sealing the border is doable.

Deportation of some, or even many, illegals, is not impossible. Deportation of all 20 million is only impossible because of resource constraints. Nevertheless, deportation is the other half of a good immigration policy (sealing the border being the first half) because it shows that we care about the rule of law.

[JohnDoe]

Deportation of some, or even many, illegals, is not impossible. Deportation of all 20 million is only impossible because of resource constraints. Nevertheless, deportation is the other half of a good immigration policy (sealing the border being the first half) because it shows that we care about the rule of law.This is how I see it.

Seal the borders then enforce the laws on the books with employers, increasing the fines, and most of the illegals will go home, especially if there is no work for them to have to survive. Then the fewer remaining illegals can be deported, which would be a much more feasible number. And while this is going on, we need to increase our legal immigrant quotas from ALL countires to fill any job openings that can't be filled by Americans, IF there are any.

jd

[Kathianne]

This is how I see it.

Seal the borders then enforce the laws on the books with employers, increasing the fines, and most of the illegals will go home, especially if there is no work for them to have to survive. Then the fewer remaining illegals can be deported, which would be a much more feasible number. And while this is going on, we need to increase our legal immigrant quotas from ALL countires to fill any job openings that can't be filled by Americans, IF there are any.

jd

We always need legal immigrants, it's what has kept this country refreshed. I haven't a problem in targeting countries where there is a huge demand to leave, as long as the people are educated. If asked today, I'd say Mexico, Eastern European countries are both good areas to up the numbers, substantially.

[Pale Rider]

We always need legal immigrants, it's what has kept this country refreshed. I haven't a problem in targeting countries where there is a huge demand to leave, as long as the people are educated. If asked today, I'd say Mexico, Eastern European countries are both good areas to up the numbers, substantially.

This is an argument I take issue with. When this country was new and mostly unpopulated, we had room for a lot of people. That isn't the case anymore. In all, we don't "NEED" another person here. This country is full. I think if we did anything at all with "legal" immigration, we should "reduce" the number of people allowed here. The only thing we need in the way of people from Mexico is migrant workers. We've always had them, and we should allow as many in each year as needed, and if that means increasing the number, then yeah, we should. But as for increasing permanent immigrants, we really don't need them. This country is full.

[Pale Rider]

The deportation is impossible, sealing the border is doable.

Nothing is impossible. That's the American spirit. Teddy Roosevelt said, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going." If we wanted to deport FIFTY million illegals, we could do it. All it would take is the will.

[OCA]

Nothing is impossible. That's the American spirit. Teddy Roosevelt said, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going." If we wanted to deport FIFTY million illegals, we could do it. All it would take is the will.

I have the will to own a house in every corner of the world but not the means, see the difference?

[OCA]

Nothing is impossible. That's the American spirit. Teddy Roosevelt said, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going." If we wanted to deport FIFTY million illegals, we could do it. All it would take is the will.

So propose to me how we could do it brother, but don't give me the deport when arrested method because that won't get even a teeny fraction of illegals. Also you know damn well that people like the ACLU and SCOTUS are not going to allow stop and searches of people of Latino descent, hell they won't even allow profiling of Arabs after 9/11, so i'm at a loss as to how you are going to get er done..

[OCA]

to fill any job openings that can't be filled by Americans, IF there are any.

jd

That statement was a joke, right?

It should've read "that WON'T be filled by Americans".

[Pale Rider]

I have the will to own a house in every corner of the world but not the means, see the difference?

This country has the means to carry out it's will. You don't.

[OCA]

This country has the means to carry out it's will. You don't.

You must explain how, will just isn't enough.

[Pale Rider]

So propose to me how we could do it brother, but don't give me the deport when arrested method because that won't get even a teeny fraction of illegals. Also you know damn well that people like the ACLU and SCOTUS are not going to allow stop and searches of people of Latino descent, hell they won't even allow profiling of Arabs after 9/11, so i'm at a loss as to how you are going to get er done..

If I sat down with a think tank and was made aware of all resources at my disposal, I'd have such a beautiful plan it would make your head spin, and fuck the aclu. If the plan was ever to work, it would have to have the backing of the scotus. Without that, it would be doomed from the start. That's the part about, "if we had the will" I mentioned. The only reason it hasn't been done yet is, "we've lacked the will," on the part of the President and the rest of Washington. The people are ready. All we need now is to elect someone with the will to do it.

Maybe it will never happen. Maybe nobody will give a damn until we hear Mexico is officially annexing part of the southwest.

[OCA]

If I sat down with a think tank and was made aware of all resources at my disposal, I'd have such a beautiful plan it would make your head spin, and fuck the aclu. If the plan was ever to work, it would have to have the backing of the scotus. Without that, it would be doomed from the start. That's the part about, "if we had the will" I mentioned. The only reason it hasn't been done yet is, "we've lacked the will," on the part of the President and the rest of Washington. The people are ready. All we need now is to elect someone with the will to do it.

Maybe it will never happen. Maybe nobody will give a damn until we hear Mexico is officially annexing part of the southwest.


You see it could be done, but you would have to divert money to this effort from other things such as: the troops get all their funding cut off, infrastructure stops getting upgrades and fixes, most programs and not just entitlements would be cut deeply to pay for hunting down and deporting hard working people.

I don't support that nor do I think its neccessary, I do not support the deportation people who work and thereby support the economy, no matter how the fuck they got here. Wanna deport some people? Deport every fuck who receives a government dole check and don't spend 10 minutes a week working for it, you will see the economy and America go to the stars.

[Pale Rider]

You see it could be done, but you would have to divert money to this effort from other things such as: the troops get all their funding cut off, infrastructure stops getting upgrades and fixes, most programs and not just entitlements would be cut deeply to pay for hunting down and deporting hard working people.

I don't support that nor do I think its neccessary, I do not support the deportation people who work and thereby support the economy, no matter how the fuck they got here. Wanna deport some people? Deport every fuck who receives a government dole check and don't spend 10 minutes a week working for it, you will see the economy and America go to the stars.

I know you don't support it. That's about as evident as anything you've ever said on this board, and it's about the only thing I disagree with you on. Why you think this nation needs to knuckle under to a bunch of third world crimminals is beyond me. The only thing I can figure out is you're not a native of this country yourself, so fuck America. You don't really care about it. You'd let every single illegal alien on earth in no matter what the cost, even if it meant the ruin of America. You'd just hop yourself back to Greece and say, "oh well, I was wrong."

I don't see it that way. I was born here. I love this country. My ancestors have been here a long, long time. I have relatives that fought with George Washington at Valley Forge. So it means a lot to me when illegals want to take over my country. The illegals here are here "illegally." Hence the name "illegal alien." They've broken our laws. And no matter how bad you want to make them out as "hard working, and upstanding," the fact of the matter is, they're not. A large portion of them come here as gang bangers, thieves, killers, rapists, drug pushers, sick, homeless and uneducated looking for nothing but trouble. We don't need them. They're bad for our country. They cost us far more than they contribute. They need to go.

[trobinett]

I know you don't support it. That's about as evident as anything you've ever said on this board, and it's about the only thing I disagree with you on. Why you think this nation needs to knuckle under to a bunch of third world crimminals is beyond me. The only thing I can figure out is you're not a native of this country yourself, so fuck America. You don't really care about it. You'd let every single illegal alien on earth in no matter what the cost, even if it meant the ruin of America. You'd just hope yourself back to Greece and say, "oh well, I was wrong."

I don't see it that way. The illegals here are here "illegally." Hence the name "illegal alien." They've broken our laws. And no matter how bad you want to make them out as "hard working, and upstanding," the fact of the matter is, they're not. A large portion of them come here as gang bangers, thieves, killers, rapists, drug pushers, sick, homeless and uneducated looking for nothing but trouble. We don't need them. They're bad for our country. They cost us far more than they contribute. They need to go.

Fuck the low life, gang banger, drug pushing, criminal slime ball's.:fu:

[red states rule]

The cost to taxpayers if OCA gets his way is staggering


Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion
by Robert E. Rector
WebMemo #1490
The Senate is currently considering a massive immigration reform bill, the "Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007" (S. 1348). This bill would grant amnesty to nearly all illegal immigrants currently in the United States.

The fiscal consequences of this amnesty will vary depending on the time period analyzed. It is expected that many illegal immigrants who are currently working "off the books" and paying no direct taxes will begin to work "on the books" after receiving amnesty, and therefore tax payments will rise immediately. By contrast, under S. 1348, benefits to these immigrants from Social Security, Medicare, and most means-tested welfare programs (such as Food Stamps, public housing, and Temporary Assistance to Needy Families) will be delayed for many years. In consequence, then, the increase in taxes and fines paid by amnesty recipients may initially exceed slightly the increase in government benefits received. In the long run, however, the opposite will be true. In particular, the cost of retirement benefits for amnesty recipients is likely to be very large. Overall, the net cost to taxpayers of retirement benefits for amnesty recipients is likely to be at least $2.6 trillion.

Who Are the Illegal Immigrants?

According to the most widely accepted estimates, there were 11.5 million to 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States in the spring of 2006.[1] Because the number of illegal immigrants has, on average, increased by roughly 500,000 each year, the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. in 2007 is probably around 12 million to 12.5 million; however, these estimates are uncertain, and the actual number of illegal immigrants may be higher.

As Chart 1 shows, some 49 percent of illegal immigrants are adult males, 35 percent are adult females, and 16 percent are foreign-born children. Living in illegal immigrant families are another 3.1 million U.S.-born children of illegal immigrant parents.[2] Because they were born inside the U.S., these children are considered citizens, not illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants now make up about 4 percent of the U.S. population, meaning that about one in twenty-five persons currently in the U.S. is here unlawfully. Illegal immigrants make up nearly one-third of the foreign-born population in the U.S.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1490.cfm